Quick Gameplay Thoughts: June 20

RiotMeddler·Jun 20, 2018·1 votes·74,315 views

Hi folks,

Usual Disclaimers

These posts will often contain talk about future work we're doing, or planning to do, that isn't yet guaranteed to ship. The nature of the work could change or, depending on what we discover, projects mentioned may get put delayed or even stopped. If you'd like to see a Tweet whenever a new one of these posts goes up: https://twitter.com/RiotMeddler

AD Item Micropatch

Earlier this week we put out a micro patch that buffed Stormrazor (AD and MS), IE (gold cost) and ER (more AS, though shorter duration). Goal there was to buff marksmen who use those items somewhat, with our goal still being to get marksmen back into a better spot without pushing other classes out of bot lane. We decided to go with a micro patch partway through 8.12 both because it helps address a clear need and because it gives us a chance to assess the impact of these item buffs while we're considering which champion buffs to put into 8.13. If the items add more or less power to individual champs than predicted means we can react to that for the upcoming patch, rather than needing to wait another two weeks.

In terms of the impact of the micro patch we've only seen a bit of play with the buffed items at time of writing. Looks like Xayah and Tristana have benefited noticeably, though not enormously. Other ADCs haven't changed much, some movement in how much they win but just within normal fluctuations.

Gold/XP funneling

After spending time assessing funneling strats last week we've come to the conclusion that, at least for now, the correct approach to dealing with them is to address a small subset of champions, rather than trying to make wider systemic changes. The systemic options we looked at all came with significant costs to other types of play we didn't want to affect (lane minion XP penalties with jungle items, return of over leveled jungle XP, limit of one support item per team etc). Looking at funneling play most of it's heavily concentrated on just a few champs who are also on the strong side and nerf candidates anyway.

Champ changes/rationale:

Master Yi - Removing bonus damage to minions so that he can't clear waves almost instantly. Reducing Q mana cost as well to reduce degree that hits lane/split push Yi.
Taric - Lowering E base damage and increasing Armor ratio so his effectiveness isn't as gold independent. Also increasing ult CD which is just a bit short for its power.
Nunu - Nerfing W AP bonus. He's got a VGU coming up moderately soon and AP boosting isn't on the revised kit. Hitting it as a result given Karthus/Nunu is the other big problem case apart from Taric/Yi.

http://ddragon.leagueoflegends.com/cdn/6.24.1/img/champion/Ziggs.png

293 Comments

ShaianJun 20, 201821 votes

Can you finally give Zyra changes to her passive and plants. AoE, melee attacks (especially melees who build attackspeed actually have no downside from attacking plants), tiamat (yea i spawn a plant on top of myself, enemy uses auto on me + tiamat and kills it rly cool interaction) are still way way WAY too efficient against her. Yasuo and Irelia oneshotting plants while using them as dashes is so unfair. One wave of gps ult insta kills any ULTED PLANT. INSTAKILLS IT. ONE WAVE OF HOW MANY? Its so boring to play. I dont care how much power you take from her passive or what else you can nerf. Just make it not suck to play. Im not talking about power. Im talking about gameplay. And that part really really sucks and its not addressed after 7 months and im really really upset, it decreases my enjoyment and deteriorates my experience of playing league so much. Can this get addressed please im so depressed.

Ah yes and new Taliyah Q. Rly fun when she kills 2 plants and throws 3 rocks on me with a single Q. Really nice interaction. Corki and MF oneshotting plants with a single auto as ranged rly cool too. Karthus oneshotting plants with his Crit Q rly cool too. So much interaction i love it yes. (Help me please no way Zyras plants would be released like that if she was a new champion. Nerf anything needed to revert her plant HP.)

VekknaJun 20, 20189 votes

You forgot to mention all the aura damage that's coded as AOE instead of DOT. So an ulted Renekton passively kills plants in 1 second, Corki's E kills them in .5 seconds, MF's E kills in .5 seconds, Rumble's ult kills in 1 second, Mundo's W kills in 1 second, etc.

And Yasuo's line Q also appears to 1-shot them despite being an AOE and regardless of whether the plant is the first target hit.

EDIT: Also, Rammus' W reflects "single-target" damage to plants and 1-shots them even though they aren't auto attacks. Jax's Counterstrike dodges plant damage instead of reducing it by 25%, also despite the fact that plants are not autos.

ShaianJun 20, 20185 votes

Jax is intended, while Rammus W and Bramble Vest is rly interactive on Zyras plants too yes :)

I like how Swains ult kills plants in 2 ticks too, how fast is he generating his ticks? like 0.2sec?

SpyglassJun 20, 20182 votes

Swain's ulti ticks once a second. As far as I'm aware, every DoT in the game either ticks at half-second or full-second intervals.

Attticus FinchJun 20, 20183 votes

Zyra is one of the strongest supports in the game right now, with a 53%(!!) wr on a very healthy 8% play rate.

She isnt getting shit for the forseeable future.

CatsexualreturnsJun 20, 20187 votes

Can we have a serious conversation about Nidalee and her laning + jungle it feels like she gets ignored as much as possible. Not even asking for buffs literally kit changes or qol to make her healthier.

420 gramsJun 20, 20185 votes

Why is gold funneling suddenly an issue now? It's been the best strat on Twisted Treeline for a very long time, but suddenly it's not ok when it's on summoners rift for one patch.

Fawkes04Jun 20, 20182 votes

For multiple reasons. One being the fact that TT is used to it and Jungle meta on TT is still viable and capable of dealing with Support meta if played correctly, Jungle vs Support meta there is some kind of skill matchup, while on SR nobody seems to know how to play against the strategy. This in my opinion would definitely not explain why one would want to nerf it instead of waiting for players to find strategies around that one. The other issue is how SR is designed and ressources are distributed there. Your potential gold income with this strategy on SR is significantly higher than on TT due to a multitude of factors so you get to a point where Support meta overpowers Jungle meta way earlier and it takes even longer for Jungle meta to catch up.

CanadianBanklordJun 21, 20184 votes

[{quoted}](name=420 grams,realm=NA,application-id=A7LBtoKc,discussion-id=MexEu76s,comment-id=0006,timestamp=2018-06-20T16:00:50.068+0000)

Why is gold funneling suddenly an issue now? It's been the best strat on Twisted Treeline for a very long time, but suddenly it's not ok when it's on summoners rift for one patch.

Cause people dont give a fuck about twisted treeline.. thats all

waiting for WoWJun 20, 20185 votes

Thoughts on Sorcery at the moment including it's lack of options or niche champions like DoT mages? Any further plans to follow up on Phase Rush(the 10% extra movespeed early helps but it's still really unsatisfying to use compared to SRS). Thoughts on a 4th keystone in Sorcery?

Tyberius11Jun 20, 20185 votes

Buff Syndra please. Thank you

InTheoryJun 20, 20184 votes

How did the enchanter changes settle down? Are AP heavy builds more common/ more successfull now? How did shield enchanters perform compared to heal enchanters?

RiotMeddlerJun 20, 20187 votes

We've seen Janna and Lulu dip noticeably in power, with Karma and Ori also affected but less so. Haven't seen much impact on healing supports, suggesting the shield duration nerfs were the more significant part. Haven't seen much adaptation of builds yet, though very possible that even at the nerfed values heal/shield items are still consistently the correct choice over AP.

QuešJun 20, 20184 votes

Thoughts on Sion ?He feels weak

RiotMeddlerJun 20, 20186 votes

We think we probably hit him a bit hard in the last round of nerfs, especially with Banner being removed also affecting him more than most. Possible candidate for a small buff in 8.14 as a result, though can't make any promises yet.

VekknaJun 20, 20185 votes

Why didn't you just revert Banner to its AP incarnation? Wouldn't that have eliminated most of its abuse cases?

Sir RougeJun 20, 20184 votes

Karma Stats from yesterday:

Role: WR/PR Champion.gg (plat+): ----- Mid: 45.25%/0.52% ----- Support: 46.79%/2.59% Lolalytics (plat+): ----- Mid: 46.07%/1.02% ----- Support: 45.92%/4.15 Lolalytics (dia+, last 7 days): ----- Mid: 45.80%/1.47% ----- Support: 46.55%/4.62% Op.gg (plat+): ----- Mid: 43.06%/0.96% ----- Support: 44.61%/3.50%

She needs a power bump now! She is the worst midlaner and the second worst support at the moment. As a low mechanical complexity enhancer, those stats are terribly low. Why is she being ignored?

Dstructo DiscJun 20, 20183 votes

Thoughts on Hecarim could use some something after the item 3053 change.

RemurinJun 20, 20183 votes

Now that you mentioned that revised Nunu won't have AP boosting in the new kit, could it be a possibility that Lulu can get it back on her W? A long time ago she used to have it and I think it could make a good return with AP mages being played bot now. I'd even find it ok if she can't self-boost own AP.

Could perhaps improve Lulu's current not as good state and enforce her position as an enchanter more, improving synergy with more champions than just merely ADCs.

RiotMeddlerJun 20, 20188 votes

Would be great to get an AP boost, or some sort of ally buff good on AP users, available to a support or supports, very with you there. Can see the argument for putting it on Lulu, given she did have it historically. Lulu's been a pretty consistently good pick though, including on teams that aren't ADC focused, so I'd be inclined to try it either as an opt in thing for a range of champs (item) or on a champion who needs a bit more of a niche.

patmax17Jun 20, 20183 votes

Do you think an AP boost is actually a good spell on a champion? While the fantasy itself sounds alluring, I think an AP boost would be quite low on visibility and satisfaction...? kinda like a raw AD bonus, I honestly prefer something like Nami's E that gives autoattacks a visible and appreciable effect. What would be a good way to "buff AP" without just adding numbers? ^^

RiotMeddlerJun 20, 20183 votes

Yeah, straight AP's going to be fairly hard to make satisfying or even noticeable (hence 'or ally buff good on AP users' in the post above). With you that things like Nami E or Pix do a better job of buffing functionality in ways user and beneficiary enjoy for the same amount of power stats could be.

CoyoteJun 20, 20183 votes

Hey Meddler!

My apologies, this is a bit out there, but do you think Nidalee will be getting any love soon, in terms of laning/jungle? It seems everyone has cc nowadays to the point assassins like nidalee are destroyed every which way they turn :(

Thanks in advance!

KaìjuJun 20, 20183 votes

Do you guys have any plans or data on Ashe and Sivir at all? Ashe changes were mentioned some time ago then stopped but you have not mentioned Sivir at all.

SpideraxeJun 20, 20182 votes

Hey Meddler I have a Lissandra related question, not asking about when we'll get her new passive but curious as to why you're working on her personally since you seem busy with midseason as lead gameplay designer, who not pass it on to another designer

RiotMeddlerJun 20, 20189 votes

Two main things there. The first is that there's a lot of other stuff vying for the time of other possible designers too, whether it's midseason followup, other champion updates, balance or whatever. While Lissandra's passive isn't great, it's not as urgent an issue as a range of other things (Lissandra players will be sick of hearing that understandably, but it's still a trade off of what to work on).

The second reason is that the lack of a satisfying passive on Lissandra rests on me, given I put her existing one there during her original design. I'd like to be involved in cleaning up that past failure to deliver as a result if possible.

VekknaJun 20, 20184 votes

In the meantime, any chance you could tweak her interaction with Tear so she can stack it effectively? Seraphs is a great item on her, but it's not worth the added delay from passive not adding stacks. Maybe just have passive reduce mana cost to 1 under the hood without any other change?

FofiJun 20, 20182 votes

Hi meddler!

First time I've been here this early. I was wondering thoughts on Udyr? He's in a really good spot with his ability to take scuttle easily and great early game dueling power. Tiger outshines Phoenix by far currently. I know he was planned to eventually get reworked, but is it anytime soon since he does have an outdated kit?

RiotMeddlerJun 20, 20185 votes

No plans for an Udyr rework any time soon. I'd argue his kit, despite how stat checky it can be at times, does have some decent stuff going on, wouldn't consider it as outdated as a number of others. Agree that Phoenix being overshadowed so heavily isn't great though, would like to improve that at some point.

FlutterrsJun 20, 20182 votes

With regards to gold funneling, would you reconsider systemic changes if other combinations rose in popularity in response to the nerfs of Karthus/Nunu and Yi/Taric? For instance, some friends and I had some success replicating the strategy by having Ornn mid and funneling gold into Udyr in the jungle. Would the appearance of other gold-funneling champ team compositions necessarily lead to systemic changes, or is it possible that certain gold funneling strats could end up being overall beneficial for League in the future(i.e. a potential hit to game health in exchange for strategic depth)?

[edit to clarify: I don't mind the nerfs to gold funneling you outlined in your original, we only tried the strat because we were playing as a five-stack and were curious about what other pairs could work.]

RiotMeddlerJun 20, 20184 votes

If gold funneling continues to be an issue with a broader range of champions then yeah, we'd need to make systemic changes instead (or as well). Our feeling was that a lot of its impact right now was due to a small number of champions being particularly good at it. Combine that with other consequences of systemic approaches and we concluded addressing individual champs first made sense. If that doesn't prove to be enough we'll go systemic (though depending on the solution that might be a preseason thing rather than a regular patch thing).

XIII VanitasJun 20, 20183 votes

Can I ask your opinion on gold funneling in Twisted Treeline? It's basically been the meta there for years, so I would like to know if you guys are okay with that or you just don't have the resources/will to fix it.

ErenexJun 20, 20182 votes

Any plans for Zoe? Zoe <3

I hope not a DMG nerf because she was allready overnerfed and she cant even run away from assasins because Assasins and Assasins items are so strong... Also MR and Tanks are a threat Zoe Zoe Zoe Zoe Zoe Zoe

FlutterrsJun 20, 20181 votes

Nerfs to W movespeed and duration hit PBE yesterday. No damage nerfs yet though

RiotMeddlerJun 20, 20184 votes

From memory we're shifting to nerfed MS duration and reduced AP ratio on W instead.

SonicÐeHedgedawgJun 20, 20182 votes

Hey Meddler, hope your day is going well.

Do you feel like Sejuani's buff landed her in a good place or that she's going to need more buffs?

I think when she got nerfed for pro play it hurt her a lot for non-pro, and the shortened game time has crippled her ability to be a late-game scaling tank

RiotMeddlerJun 20, 20184 votes

We were just talking about her yesterday. We're currently torn between 'those last buffs still left her a bit weak' and 'if we buff her a bit more she potentially jumps straight back to someone you should just pick all the time unless she's banned'. Going to hold off on doing anything for a bit, she is on our radar though.

XIII VanitasJun 20, 20184 votes

Do you think one of the factors that made her a pick or ban champion was her E mechanic? I feel like if she had to apply her passive stacks by herself (and they were only 3 instead of 4) she would be less oppressive when her teammates pick melee champions.

Punish betrayersJun 20, 20182 votes

Hello Meddler!

There was a change on Kalista on the PBE of yesterday, but S@20 dont manage to see what is the change, can you explain what is it please?

RiotMeddlerJun 20, 20188 votes

Slightly increased AD ratio on spear damage (20-35% by rank, from 20-30%). Not necessarily a final change though, still some discussion going on.

Nordic FateJun 20, 20183 votes

I don't wanna influence you, but... that 5% more will not be such a dramatical change if you look at how she performs in the current meta (bad) even in pro play she ain't played

XyltinJun 20, 20182 votes

+5% total AD per AA (after the first one) is a pretty decent buff.

RmlthlJun 20, 20181 votes

Meddler, last night some of the changes to ADCs were pulled from the PBE. Are they still going to happen or you will wait and see where the micropatch is going to put the crit ADCs.

I've read different statements around the internet so I feel like asking you - is the new Aatrox still coming next week or he will remain on the PBE for another patch?

edit for a third question: What is your opinion on Summon Aery? It feels like a win more rune for every champion that uses it.

RiotMeddlerJun 20, 20183 votes

Crit ADC changes - some are still happening, some are happening but being made small (e.g. Trist), some we're pulling at least for the coming patch (changing builds and impacts of item buffs).

Aatrox - Should be in the next patch, no plans for an extra PBE cycle.

GaliöJun 20, 20181 votes

I dont think essence reaver was a (weak) problem item. In fact I think it was very strong on a few champions. I think something like Runnans need help and something like Rageblade need nerfs.

RiotMeddlerJun 20, 20183 votes

We were seeing ER pre micro patch being a really strong choice on some champs (those with AA resets primarily) and a poor choice on others who it should be good on (those able to ult early who like attack speed). We opted for a shorter duration with stronger AS to try and narrow that gap as a result, make it good on a wider range of champions. Not yet clear how much impact that has/hasn't had.

GaliöJun 20, 20185 votes

The issue with that, if you don't mind further critique, is that the changes just make it stronger due to fights seldom lasting 6 or 8 seconds. I dont see any benefit of buffing it for a shortened timer.

My Waifu VanillaJun 20, 20181 votes

Except it is still a nerf to the current "abusers" of it. Lucian doesn't benefit from AS during the ER buff. He is CONSTANTLY resetting his auto attack timer with E and Q. Renekton also could care less about AS since he is stuck in his W and E animations for most of the buff duration and not actually auto attacking.

GaliöJun 20, 20181 votes

It's a nerf if you are miraculously fighting for over 6 seconds yeah. Most mages don't get more than 2 rotations of their spells in a fight. And when your lilting it's usually an all in situation so whatever happens after is usually resolved in 6 seconds time the extra 2 seconds was gratuitous in the first place.

My Waifu VanillaJun 20, 20182 votes

Why are we talking about mages at all? It's an ADC item. Another thing is the whole "fight over in 2 seconds" reasoning is false in almost every regard unless the enemy team is already massively ahead other wise we wouldn't see Lethal Tempo taken AT ALL yet it sees play on some ADCs and almost exclusively on Nocturne who is one of the most contested picks in pro play. The change was a rather big buff to Ashe and Xayah (Xayah went up over 2% from the change) and a net neutral change to the likes of Lucian.