Quick Gameplay Thoughts: March 3

RiotMeddler·Mar 2, 2018·1 votes·53,661 views

Hey all,

Usual Disclaimers

These posts will often contain talk about future work we're doing, or planning to do, that isn't yet guaranteed to ship. The nature of the work could change or, depending on what we discover, projects mentioned may get put delayed or even stopped. If you'd like to see a Tweet whenever a new one of these posts goes up: https://twitter.com/RiotMeddler

Tweaking CSing under towers

In 8.4 we removed the extra 5 damage to minions champion AAs dealt (it got added back in pre-season) . One group of champs did get hit harder than intended though by that change. That's champs, usually but not always mages, with low base AD. They're now having to land two auto attacks on melee minions who've been hit by towers twice, rather than the previous one. To maintain prior CSing patterns around towers we're shifting it so towers deal 45% of a melee minion's health per hit instead of 43%. Impact on other champs should be very minimal.

Matchmaking Dev Blog

Many people will have already seen this, for those that haven't though I'd highly recommend checking out the recent dev blog on matchmaking as found here:

https://nexus.leagueoflegends.com/en-us/2018/02/dev-matchmaking-real-talk/

It covers a lot of topics that get brought up regularly like:

The relationship between ranked and normal MMR
Feeling you get matched with worse allies after winning a lot
Why we don't use KDA for matchmaking
Why you still get matched with people you've muted
And a bunch of other things

Some possible 8.6 changes

We've just finished working on 8.5 and are mapping out things we'll be looking at for 8.6. Some of our current thinking below, as usual stuff will get added or removed as patch development goes on.

Items:

Jungle items - Two potential changes. First is changing sustain so it's more missing health/mana based. Goal there is to make early ganks a bit riskier like they used to be a couple of seasons back (not ganking at or close to full health, so more chance of a turn around). Would also potentially help out those unable to clear at present because they're so mana limited. Second change is lowering early clear speed a bit as well, push first gank times back a bit later in the game again.
Abyssal Mask - Potentially pushing it more towards just tankier users. Magic damage dealers taking it to both nullify opponent lane damage and still get sufficient personal damage hasn't generally created good gameplay.
Duskblade - Nerfing it.
Locket - Some investigations into ways to make Locket less consistent and less universal a purchase. More exploratory, so possible nothing ships in 8.6.
Rageblade - Looking to make it more accessible to melee, potentially also less of a first item power spike and more tied to other item power.

Champions:

Rakan - Looking to buff. We're also fixing a bug between him and Xayah that leads to his performance with Xayah being much, much better than with anyone else. After that bug fix he'll be weaker when paired with Xayah, so a buff even in that case should be good too.
Rumble - Some form of buff, details TBD.
Lee Sin - Got hit a bit by Tracker's removal and had already been a bit weak before that. Buffing, details unsure.
LeBlanc - Changes will be on PBE during the 8.6 cycle from day 1, probably ship in a later patch though. Changes revert the majority of the previous update.
Ahri - Might have changes in 8.6 (testing, but not certain to ship). Still looking for ways to make her highs higher and her lows lower (does more when ahead, does less when behind)
Some Duskblade Users - We'll have some buffs to a number of champs who are pretty dependent on Duskblade at present and we expect will be too weak post Duskblade nerf.

Runes:

Manaflow Band - Nerfing, details TBD.
Presence of Mind - Looking to change it so it's a reasonable choice on a wider number of champions. Then probably nerfing it for its current best case users, on whom its very strong already.

http://ddragon.leagueoflegends.com/cdn/6.24.1/img/champion/Ziggs.png

301 Comments

REKT Dat AsheMar 2, 201810 votes

Hi meddler, any talk about Syndra and her low win rate/ play rate?

IxtaliKingMar 2, 201810 votes

A visual representation of me waiting on Karma news:

https://imgur.com/a/l3lQP

Algorithmic BiasMar 3, 20183 votes

We are in the same club

5000000000000000Mar 6, 20181 votes

What are Karma's problems?

IxtaliKingMar 6, 20182 votes

Hey, I've written a post about them on Reddit if you're interested :)

5000000000000000Mar 6, 20182 votes

Nice, thank you.

StenwulfMar 2, 20189 votes

When will We get the more insight which parts of her kit will be reverted and what stays from the newer LeBlanc? Im hyped now.

Kumungu AffairMar 2, 20189 votes

Am I the only one concerned that Meddler is posting this from the future? It's March 2nd, what is going on here riot?

RiotMeddlerMar 2, 201831 votes

Yeah, I seem to screw the day's date up in one of these titles every few months.

Insert joke about how getting numbers right for Riot is hard here.

waiting for WoWMar 2, 20188 votes

Is there any work planned for Syndra? The AP itemization changes haven't improved her situation at all she has been left generically undertuned for a long time now.

Xt0Mar 2, 20188 votes

Any plans for Syndra? She feels very weak ever since Runes reforged launched?

DrKappaMar 2, 20188 votes

What are your thoughts on the state of Syndra?

RavenofNovaMar 3, 20188 votes

So poor rakan with a 51% wr and 12% playrate is suffering and needs urgent buffs despite Xayah being at the top of ADC right now because of their combo.

But Hecarim is still lingering at the bottom along with Elise and they don't deserve even a mention.

DemiluniSMar 2, 20187 votes

Hi meddler, anything about liss? You said you're going to mention her in the post

RiotMeddlerMar 2, 201814 votes

I'll be talking Lissandra a bit next week. That will be the current state of changes being tested, not a change list that's definitely shipping though.

toyMar 2, 20187 votes

Is there any talk about Syndra? She's been pretty weak ever since the new rune changes, with having no real keystone to use on her.

12345zMar 2, 20186 votes

Hi Meddler What do you think of the current state of lucian?

DangerouslyMar 2, 20185 votes

Hey meddler, can we expect lucian to get some more love?

AltariousMar 2, 20189 votes

[{quoted}](name=DARK KNlGHT,realm=NA,application-id=A7LBtoKc,discussion-id=Kiy5ZMuR,comment-id=0026,timestamp=2018-03-02T16:39:00.682+0000)

Hey meddler, can we expect lucian to get some more love?

https://i.redd.it/s0umf3rzw9j01.png

AheshkeMar 2, 20185 votes

RIP 90% of jungle champs. Welcome back tot he 3 champ jungle meta...

I may afkMar 2, 20184 votes

With the nerfs to multiple mana regen runes, has Riot considered directly reducing how mana gated certain champions are instead?

RiotMeddlerMar 2, 201813 votes

Our thinking's more the other way around. That we've ended up reducing mana gating too much with Manaflow Band and Presence of Mind and that's one of the big reasons to nerf them as a result.

Glory to GodMar 2, 20184 votes

I think Presence of Mind needs to be more Precision-y, it REALLY feels out of place in that tree. It should have some subtler, combat-focused conditions IMO.

I may afkMar 2, 20185 votes

{quoted}

Our thinking's more the other way around. That we've ended up reducing mana gating too much with Manaflow Band and Presence of Mind and that's one of the big reasons to nerf them as a result.

I mean with certain champions that were affected by the targeted spells changes like Cassiopeia. It's clear that she has been using Presence of Mind to mask her worst laning now that her E pulls minion aggro, and it's made her far too reliant on it to clear minion waves to be able to trade effectively.

On a side note: Since you guys are making Abyssal Mask worse to build on magic damage dealers, is there a chance that you revert the previous nerfs to Cassiopeia's base damage and lower the AP scaling again? Since building that item was the only reason for the nerf.

toymachineMar 2, 20184 votes

Any plans on nerfing adc late game damage?

TheRealBazMar 2, 20184 votes

please dont just ignore bruiser junglers who have no rune, conquerer is not an answer for them as it leaves them without a keystone for the entirety of the early game

Tyberius11Mar 3, 20184 votes

Meddler please tell us your thoughts on hecarim. I’ve asked for ages. His Q only stacks twice and doesn’t do much damage, his W heal is low, his E often Mia licks a minion when ganking and his ult should be minimum 1 second and max 2 seconds.

iahim98Mar 2, 20183 votes

Thoughts on how the baron and elder changes worked out so far? From personal experience, the caster damage reduction makes so now it takes to long to clear so most of the time is not worth trying to kill them anymore and taking 2 elders in a row is really strong even without any drakes (and most of the time worth more then baron, also helps clearing the empowered casters as is true damage)

RiotMeddlerMar 2, 20184 votes

2nd Elder looks really strong. I'll get some stats and some thoughts on that next week.

In solo queue at least Baron impact doesn't seem to have changed that much, somewhat surprisingly. Banner of Command usage seems likely to spike up everywhere though looking at the current trends in recent pro games, so that could change. We're talking Banner today, including whether to try and rush a really late change into 8.5 for it or not.

NefasMar 2, 20183 votes

Should it be that surprising? People haven’t seen pros use it yet. Today has been a taste.

DreddZyMar 2, 20183 votes

{quoted}

Locket - Some investigations into ways to make Locket less consistent and less universal a purchase. More exploratory, so possible nothing ships in 8.6.

Hmmm this sounds familiar.

Mysticman89Mar 3, 20183 votes

I haven't been actively following LCS, but when I have casually tuned in I've seen rakan pop up. Doing a quick bit of googling, it looks like he's shown up around 20% of the time in pro play, which is a fair amount. Not quite on the same level as braum/kench, but still quite popular.

And yet, you're talking of buffing him? Used to pro play presence leading to nerfs rather than buffs. Is there concern that whatever buffs you have in mind might push him to pick/ban in pro?

Also, can I ask what the bug with him/xayah is, or would you prefer to wait until it's fixed before mentioning it? Learning both of those champs decently is actually on my to do list, so being aware of whats intended and what isn't would be nice to know.

UpooOnMeMar 2, 20182 votes

Are these and other changes up to mid season intended to help the opening of bot lane or they are just general game health changes?

RiotMeddlerMar 2, 20185 votes

The listed changes above at least are just general game health. Possible some of the open up bot lane stuff does happen before midseason depending on what we conclude, nothing concrete yet though.

SeeKerŻMar 2, 20182 votes

Hi Meddler,

Curious to know what will you guys do to abyssal mask, any plans already ?

RiotMeddlerMar 2, 20186 votes

Currently testing a shorter aura range, not committed to that direction yet though.

AdalvarMar 2, 20186 votes

I think you guys need to consider the possibility of scrapping the aura off item 3001 completely? Not only is it being used as a item for magic damage users when it should be for tank users, it's also mostly replacing the scaling role that item 3027 was providing to several mages.

Why not shift the aura to item 3027 as a reward once the 10 minute stacking timer completes and give item 3001 a different passive? has been left on the dust as a scaling item and is way too good on the wrong users. With this change, both items would have a better shot at fullfiling their intended roles.

ZaneShadowMar 2, 20181 votes

{quoted}

I think you guys need to consider the possibility of scrapping the aura off completely? Not only is it being used as a item for magic damage users when it should be for tank users, it's also mostly replacing the scaling role that was providing to several mages.

Why not shift the aura to as a reward once the 10 minute stacking timer completes and give a different passive? has been left on the dust as a scaling item and is way too good on the wrong users. With this change, both items would have a better shot at fullfiling their intended roles.

I’d rather see a RoA buff rather than a Abyssal nerf. Like let it scale for an extra 2-3 minutes, or let it scale faster. The idea of an extra ability at the end sounds like a great solution as well, but I think Abysals passive on an AP Item would be more than broken, even if it takes 10 minutes.

Right now it is the only item to offer AP, Mana, and health. It’s a powerful trio, but in the face of Archangels protection once evolved, it’s not as shiny an option considering the loss of 20% CDR. It’s a great item, but taking it puts me at a disadvantage early, as I’m behind in Ap and CDR, and potentially tied for health vs other items. So I wish it didn’t simply go par for the course but rewarded me heavier at the tail end of it stacking.

AdalvarMar 2, 20182 votes

Well once upon a time when it gave 800 mana and 120 AP at the end of stacking, it was a good fit with Archangel. But now with the changes to Lost Chapter items, especially Archangel's, RoA can't compete against it or Abyssal for scaling.

As for Abyssal passive being broken on RoA, it's nothing a cost increase (from 2700 to 3000 gold) and a few early game stat shifts (reduce early AP from 60 to 50 and increase the scaling AP from 4 to 5 per minute) wouldn't fix to make the scaling curve slower along with the 10 minute stacking timer in exchange for an actual big scaling spike.

XyltinMar 3, 20182 votes

I really like that. It allows assassins, AP bruisers and tanks to still use it while taking a lot of power away from casters, at lest if you go down to ~400-450 range.

The Cane MasterMar 2, 20182 votes

Please consider developing items for Juggernauts, such as this one.

VicimusMar 2, 20182 votes

These thoughts are completely misplaced. Juggernauts don't need items, fighters need better ones. Items like Black Cleaver, Steraks, and even Deadmans are fine for the juggernauts that tend to use them (Illaoi, Darius, etc.).

The problem is that fighter items like Ravenous Hydra, Deaths Dance, completely suck. Big ticket AD items provide no incentive for fighters to do well.

Fix Fighters, not Juggernauts. Juggernauts are fine right now.

The Cane MasterMar 2, 20181 votes

{quoted}

These thoughts are completely misplaced. Juggernauts don't need items, fighters need better ones. Items like Black Cleaver, Steraks, and even Deadmans are fine for the juggernauts that tend to use them (Illaoi, Darius, etc.).

Yes, exactly, these items are fine, but only to those that use them. If you had read the topic (which you didn't), you would see that it is already mentioned that not all juggernauts use these items, e.g. Nasus does not use Black Cleaver, Deadman's, and even Sterak's is situational.

The problem is that fighter items like Ravenous Hydra, Deaths Dance, completely suck. Big ticket AD items provide no incentive for fighters to do well.

No one said that juggernauts' problems have to be ignored in order for other fighters to get their items improved. Both issues can be tackled, stop being so egoistic.

Fix Fighters, not Juggernauts. Juggernauts are fine right now.

I'm sorry, but in what competitive game are juggernauts ''fine''? They literally have had ~0% pick rate for the 3rd consecutive Season in professional play. Just because silver people don't know how to deal with them, it doesn't mean they are okay. Again, if they were they wouldn't be avoided by pro players like they are carrying a plague.

VicimusMar 2, 20182 votes

Just because silver people don't know how to deal with them, it doesn't mean they are okay

I got to Diamond THIS season playing juggernauts. Feel free to search my OP.GG. Now that we've established that, juggernauts do NOT have a problem. The items are there and do they are doing their job just fine. Cleaver is a solid item in one package and Steraks is perfect for teamfight survivability.

Nasus does not use Black Cleaver, Deadman's, and even Sterak's is situational.

This is very much a Nasus thing, and is not shared among all juggernauts. His kit doesn't care about having more AD. All he wants is resistances, Q stacks, and CDR to spam every skill he has. He's built like a tank because he doesn't need items that are offense/defense hybrids. Again, you're a 600 game Nasus one trick with somehow a 45% winrate (over 600 games? wtf?) who ended their ranked season at division 5 with zero LP. You are not a good representation of juggernaut players.

I'm sorry, but in what competitive game are juggernauts ''fine''? They literally have had ~0% pick rate for the 3rd consecutive Season in professional play.

The competitive meta is complex and values safety above all else. It will always have a distinct group of champions that are the strongest above others. Even right now it's not just "tank tops", it's Gnar, Camille, GP, each of which play in completely different manners. There may be a time where certain juggernauts are good again, but expecting all of them to dominate top lane is a pipe-dream because they all have different playstyles, kits, and scaling.

The Cane MasterMar 2, 20183 votes

{quoted}

I got to Diamond THIS season playing juggernauts. Feel free to search my OP.GG. Now that we've established that, juggernauts do NOT have a problem. The items are there and do they are doing their job just fine. Cleaver is a solid item in one package and Steraks is perfect for teamfight survivability.

No, you didn't get diamond playing juggernauts, you got there by playing Darius and Illaoi only, the prime users of the items mentioned. That being said, you haven't played the majority of juggernauts, most of which are clearly weaker than the 2 mentioned both in SoloQ and competitive play. Garen 's pick rate in professional play settles the argument that juggernauts need major improvements in order to keep up with modern meta, where damage, mobility, and survivability creep are all too high (to which, ironically, juggernauts do not contribute in any shape of form).

This is very much a Nasus thing, and is not shared among all juggernauts. His kit doesn't care about having more AD. All he wants is resistances, Q stacks, and CDR to spam every skill he has. He's built like a tank because he doesn't need items that are offense/defense hybrids. Again, you're a 600 game Nasus one trick with somehow a 45% winrate (over 600 games? wtf?) who ended their ranked season at division 5 with zero LP. You are not a good representation of juggernaut players.

Nope, DrMundo also does not use item 3071 nor item 3053 nor item 3742 , which is the 2nd champion, and the only one I played alongside Nasus . Therefore, I'm exactly the best representation of juggernauts, and despite having performed better than average challenger player in every single category, I was unable to only climb back to diamond.

There may be a time where certain juggernauts are good again, but expecting all of them to dominate top lane is a pipe-dream because they all have different playstyles, kits, and scaling.

And that time is not even on the horizon, at least not with the slowest pace that Riot is addressing their issues (if at all). In no way am I expecting them to ''dominate'' top lane, just being picked occasionally would suffice.

The competitive meta is complex and values safety above all else. It will always have a distinct group of champions that are the strongest above others. Even right now it's not just "tank tops", it's Gnar, Camille, GP, each of which play in completely different manners.

All in all, juggernauts have had 0% pick rate in pro play for 3rd consecutive Season. To put it in your words, their ''distinct playstyle, kits and scaling'' amount to utter garbage, and this is an overwhelming issue that's being ignored by Riot, and in the same the manner you are talking about it. League of Legends top meta has become so stale, that the average viewership has reached an all-time low during regular Season 7, many of the veteran players stopped watching it as a result (me included).

TL;DR: Stop basing your subclass opinion (of juggernauts) on 2 most powerful members of the same, your sample range is not wide enough, and it only proves the overwhelmingly transparent issue of those you consciously CHOOSE not to play.

VicimusMar 2, 20183 votes

I don't disagree with you here. I think juggernauts along with other aggressive top laners need some exposure in competitive games.

But that issue being an itemization one is debatable. Although items may be a part of it, juggernauts and fighters both just don't have keystones that work for them. Yes they can arguably run Grasp but that keystone sucks outside of lane and is suspect to being abused by tanks. Aftershock, again same issue of being abused by tanks/tank supports with low gold income. Riot needs to acknowledge both of these classes and give them more agency. Is the new conqueror keystone going to do it? Maybe. It looks promising but only time with tell. I feel like even that keystone can be abused by tanks with high %hp base damages like TahmKench or even Poppy .

The bottom line here is that Riot needs to engage in discussion about these champions and the state of the lane in general. Perhaps the solutions offered here aren't the best, but they're a step in the direction we need to go with these archetypes.

WhiteAcresMar 2, 20181 votes

[deleted]

RiotMeddlerMar 2, 20187 votes

That's correct. We're planning on pulling the bonus health % down (to 15% or 16% from memory). We think it's both too strong in general and making it too easy to hit the health threshold on Warmogs.

AMYS GRAVEMar 2, 20182 votes

Hmmm... mystery question...

RiotMeddlerMar 2, 20186 votes

Something along the lines of:

'I heard nerfs to Cinderhulk are coming?'