Quick Gameplay Thoughts: May 9

RiotMeddler·May 9, 2017·1 votes·71,773 views

Morning all,

Usual Disclaimers

These posts will often contain talk about future work we're doing, or planning to do, that isn't yet guaranteed to ship. The nature of the work could change or, depending on what we discover, projects mentioned may get put delayed or even stopped. If you'd like to see a Tweet whenever a new one of these posts goes up: https://twitter.com/RiotMeddler

Yorick subtle improvements

Mentioning these since they're harder to datamine. We've got some useability/subtle feel good stuff going for Yorick in 7.10, with Mist Walkers no longer perishing if they're too far from Yorick, Yorick's Q spawning a grave even if there are 4 out already and replacing the last one (instead of just not spawning) and the Maiden benefiting from R rank ups even if she's already summoned. Balance wise we don't really have any room to buff Yorick significantly, we do want to give him a bit of love though, hence the focus on things that are more feel improvements than power.

More things we're particularly keeping an eye on post mid-season

In addition to the updated tanks, Rift Herald etc as previously mentioned there are some additional things we're now specifically tracking for possible work in 7.11 including:

Thresh - Mid season's been kind to the chain warden. Belief is that that's the impact of the revised Ancient Coin in part, which gives him needed mana, reduces chances he costs his ally in lane CS with Targon's and gives him more E procs to harass with than Targon's does. Old coin offered most of those benefits too, but suspicion here is that new Coin's a better choice on him overall than the old.
Sunfire Rushing Tanks - We're seeing a number of tanks who'd previously been in reasonable spots balance wise struggle a bit more after the Sunfire changes. That's not unexpected, indicating they had problems laning that Sunfire was covering up. Likely direction there is to adjust individual kits so they function more appropriately, rather than using Sunfire as a generic solve.
Other items on watch - Death's Dance, BotRK, Banshee's and GA are all getting a lot of observation too. They're not necessarily in bad spots, but they're certainly worth tracking more than average at the least (high usage rates + high impact moments).

Delaying Malz changes to 7.11

We've got a few larger adjustments underway at the moment to Rammus, Malz and Heimer. The Rammus and Heimer ones should be good to go in 7.10, we'll be holding the Malz ones till 7.11 (probably) however to take a bit more time to work on those. One likely change is adjusting the R so its damage is split between pool and beam, which amongst other things gives better counterplay when there are multiple enemies around (ability to interrupt) and therefore hopefully allows us to put a bit more power into its ratio.

Elemental Dragons

At some point (next year seems most likely) we'd like to try adding another elemental dragon to the rotation if we can find one that's distinct from the other in terms of the gameplay it rewards, has at least an ok thematic fit, and doesn't excessively favor particular team comps. Curious to hear if anyone's got any strong suggestions? We've got some ideas kicking around of course, but also really interested in hearing other viewpoints.

550 Comments

RiotAD YuumiMay 9, 201749 votes

Salt Dragon:

Has a white gem like aesthetic (kind of like a combo between wind and earth).

Attacks encrust you in salt, lowering attack speed and removing all silences.

Defeating one of these drakes will empower your team's CHAT BOXES. Salt Drakes you have killed generate inflammatory commentary in /all chat that is attributed to members of the enemy team who either have the most deaths or most kills. Additionally, Salt Drakes BLOCK inflammatory lines created by your own teammates, preventing them from appearing at all. Salt chat happens once every 90/60/30 seconds based on the number of salt drakes acquired.

patmax17May 9, 201724 votes

http://i3.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/000/548/129/538.jpg

RaxistaichoMay 9, 20176 votes

[{quoted}](name=Riot jinxylord,realm=NA,application-id=A7LBtoKc,discussion-id=KTswL4uY,comment-id=00b2,timestamp=2017-05-09T22:29:37.349+0000)

Salt Dragon:

Has a white gem like aesthetic (kind of like a combo between wind and earth).

Attacks encrust you in salt, lowering attack speed and removing all silences.

Defeating one of these drakes will empower your team's CHAT BOXES. Salt Drakes you have killed generate inflammatory commentary in /all chat that is attributed to members of the enemy team who either have the most deaths or most kills. Additionally, Salt Drakes BLOCK inflammatory lines created by your own teammates, preventing them from appearing at all. Salt chat happens once every 90/60/30 seconds based on the number of salt drakes acquired.

Have them be champion-specific and I'm sold.

Raxistaicho (Ahri): "Oooohhh, looks like I just had my way with you again, [champion]." Raxistaicho (Ahri): "Don't you ever get tired of ending up on your back, [champion]?" Raxistaicho (Ahri): "On all fours again, huh [champion]?"

Gear5LuffyMay 9, 201725 votes

Make a Elemental Dragon that when is slain it gives you tower hp regen or tower shield when 3 or more enemies are around

BlakiepugMay 9, 20175 votes

{quoted}

Make a Elemental Dragon that when is slain it gives you tower hp regen or tower shield when 3 or more enemies are around

This sounds sick! :D A dragon to help towers.

Gear5LuffyMay 9, 20174 votes

Much needed now with the Headbutt rift Herald [slayer-jinx-wink]

RiotMeddlerMay 9, 201718 votes

One thing to watch for there is that we want dragons to be objectives that are always at least moderately desirable to either team, whether they're winning or losing. A buff that defensive's not very appealing to the team winning and quite appealing (though sometimes inaccessible) to the team losing. In situations where both teams are even there's a good chance it just won't be worth the risk/cost of taking it and those are situations where we really want objectives to drive conflict/interaction.

The Emu MarauderMay 10, 20173 votes

Instead of tower regeneration, minion health regeneration... that could be both defensive and offensive... though it still seems a little underwhelming to me. Just bouncing off of your idea here lol.

GerAvosMay 9, 201723 votes

A golden dragon that gives gold, or increases the gold income rate.

RiotMeddlerMay 9, 201714 votes

We've talked a bit about gold dragons as options, concern though is that it's just really general power. There's something cool about it as an occasional thing which keeps us coming back to the idea every so often (rare spawn?). It doesn't go well with the goal of having dragons shape your strategy and how you approach a game at least a bit as a team though.

RussarianMay 9, 201724 votes

Hey Meddler,

To be fair, the strategy of the current dragon system isn't really a strategy (sure, tactics but not overall strategy) and more of a RNG element. I feel a more strategic approach would be to show the dragon list in champ select (all the potential dragons before elder dragon, if they were killed on time). The list will always be random, but to actually be able to pick specific champions to synergize with the expected drakes would be even more interesting than the current system. This would feel more like a strategic reward in my opinion. Then teams will still have to execute by securing the dragons, which still gives the opposing team (counterplay) an opportunity to spoil their plans. Sorry for the rant, but if the current system would still exist, these would be my ideas:

Luck Dragon - Gives bonus gold to minion kills, gold income, and tower gold.

This way, gold isn't immediate power, but still fits the line of a strategy to stall the game out in order to gain the reward.

Luck Dragon - Drops a gold chest on kill, only the teammates who attacked the dragon will be able to loot the chest.

Teams will have to decide if they want to bring everyone to the dragon fight or continue applying pressure on the other side of the map.

SolashMay 9, 201722 votes

Got a few ideas:

An Undead dragon that reduces death timers

Or An electric dragon that increases spell effects duration (Armor/MR shred, CC, etc)

MercuryTreadsMay 9, 20178 votes

Death timers sounds good but spell duration sounds just as busted as the fire drake.. and we don't want that

LongHair FoxMay 9, 201719 votes

Exodia dragon: If you have one of each dragon, you win the game.

AMYS GRAVEMay 9, 20171 votes

Because only 4 elemental drakes spawn per game that situation could never occur. It would require taking 5.

Also no.

My HeartshakerMay 9, 20172 votes

It is possible to take 5 dragons in a single game. You've just got to take the first dragon fairly quickly after spawning. It's doable, I've had plenty of games where it's happened.

LongHair FoxMay 9, 20174 votes

There is a rule in place so that only 3 different types of dragons can be spawned in any given game. This means that if you already have seen earth, water and air dragons then a fire dragon cannot spawn. This is done to increase the chance of seeing 3 of the same type in a single game.

TNing of PineMay 9, 201718 votes

Maybe a dragon that helps with map awareness / vision in some way? Not sure exactly how it'd work - maybe buffs to ward duration, make vision last slightly longer before fog of war returns, increase vision range, ...?

YourSh4dowMay 9, 20171 votes

while this seems nice how would the dragon look. what would be his (her?) element? U should also consider visual side of things.

TNing of PineMay 9, 20179 votes

Light Dragon? Crystal Dragon?

PannanjaMay 9, 201715 votes

Drake Ideas:

Passive shield (malphite/rakan) - Forest
CC extension (tenacity is cool, but reverse tenacity would feel more unique to the drake) - Ice
Buffed minions (like the average team level kind of buffs, not like baron) - Desert? idk
Item slot (probably too crazy and doesn't stack well, but choose a completed, non-activatable item to turn into a passive like elisa's miracle) - Metal
Summoner cooldown (I think this would be even more interesting if it refunded ~0.5s on summoners upon damaging a champion) - Astral
+Gold on CS/ give ~spellthief's passive (passive gold gen would be boring, but active gold generation feels like an impactful drake) - Gold/Diamond
Buffed keystones (reduce CDs or increase stats, etc.. Might have to be specific to each one) - Lightning
Vision buffs (wards/sweepers last longer, control/blue wards increased sight range) - Light

Speaking of dragons, have you ever considered changing infernal to flat penetration instead of AD/AP so that it benefits classes more evenly? Right now ADCs get the most benefit because they rely the least on base damages. This would be more of a spike and less late game focused, but that could be solved by scaling with level, no?

AhristocatsMay 9, 201713 votes

Hey Meddler

i saw that Thresh win rate increased from 48% to 53% with the new patch i would understand you if you nerfed him

but can you please do it carefully? thresh is a champion that should excel at peeling and relocating allies with lantern making him a great pick against AREAS like j4 ult

if you should nerf him, try to reduce his secondary strengths like his engage?

base movement speed nerf to 325 from 335 and maybe a projectile speed nerf or a range nerf to his Q

Sincerly A concerned Support/thresh main

RiotMeddlerMay 9, 20178 votes

Good notes, thanks for the feedback. Right now we're at the 'we need to watch Thresh, and understand exactly what's affecting him' stage, not 'time to nerf'. Coin's a solid theory for some of the increase, possible there's other stuff going on too though (other itemization changes, people getting much better at using his kit after playing the new game mode, etc).

PhoenixlickerMay 9, 20173 votes

Though relicshield was the starting item of choise still? Seeing as how the healthregen is off of it now and you only occationally get some mana. also it feels relly bad for me because it feels way less consistent then the other support items then if it was say "every x seconds the next minion that dies near you will drop a coin " making it so you can tacticly go in even if you are oom because you know "that" minion is going to dropp a manacoin giving you the mana you need to cast the crutial "x" spell. aslo maybe adding a "healthcoin" othervise i like the new quests on relic and spellthief. (after writing i think i may be in the wrong thread but i'll hope i guess)

AnonagonMay 9, 20175 votes

Something you might want to remember is that %bonuspen on last whisper items was nerfed, and almost all of thresh's armor is bonus because of his passive, so he's more effectively tanky against lategame physical damage

MalrothDragoniaMay 9, 20177 votes

Oh, I love the idea of another dragon. Initial thoughts: Metallic - some kind of dmg reduction Astral - small amount of cd reduction on Summoner Spells Void - empower minions

MalrothDragoniaMay 9, 20178 votes

3 more: Ghost/Shivering Isles: increase ward time by % Time: Decrease death timers by x sec (2/4/6) maybe? not as confident on this one. Another idea was increase enemy/decrease ally inhib timer Grass: Increase team's max health. With hit to health in midseason could be a cool way to give pocket cases where health champs can get a bit of power back.

As for more in-depth thought process on these basic thought is :

needs something that maintains stacking per other dragons, so one-time buffs not in line with design of current dragons.
needs to be something significant to gameplay without simply powering up one team immediately in a way that snowballs the game off of one stack.
Something that interacts with ways to win the game that is distinct from things already in place.

Obi Juan KenoobyMay 9, 20177 votes

A few dragon ideas, all stats increasing slightly per stack as with existing dragons:

x Tenacity
x% of max health
x Armor/MR
x Gold per 10 seconds

The actual element of the dragon could be anything really. You've got Ice, Grass, Wood, tons of stuff.

My only concern would be that adding an extra dragon to the mix would decrease the likelihood of you getting two or three stacks of one specific dragon in a game. I'm not sure if some system could be put in place where there's an increased chance of the next dragon spawning being the same element as its predecessor.

Solidair3May 9, 20176 votes

There's already a limit of three dragon types per game, they could just keep that system in and thus not affect multiple stacks.

Sire HippingtonMay 10, 20176 votes

Thresh - Mid season's been kind to the chain warden. Belief is that that's the impact of the revised Ancient Coin in part, which gives him needed mana, reduces chances he costs his ally in lane CS with Targon's and gives him more E procs to harass with than Targon's does. Old coin offered most of those benefits too, but suspicion here is that new Coin's a better choice on him overall than the old.

I'm curious, does your data suggest that his improved winrate is linked to coin? Cause from other sources it doesn't look like it. https://euw.op.gg/champion/thresh/statistics/support, Still goes relic in every built http://champion.gg/champion/Thresh/Support?, also with relic only http://www.leagueofgraphs.com/champions/items/thresh only 6% start coin, and that with 3% less winrate than the most common relic start

So unless all those 3 sides have their data wrong, coin is not really a factor in Thresh's improved winrate.

My guess is more that relic is quite a bit buffed with the quest reward, Thresh benefits more than anyone else from the LW nerfs as he's basically all bonus armor with next to no base, and he profits from the rather weak state of tanks right now as less tanks in the game make it easier to hit the right targets with the Q in fights rather than haveing it bodyblocked by a beefy dude. He also is pretty strong in the early lane and on early roams, so he adds alot to secureing riftherald which seems to be very impactfull.

Elemental Dragons

At some point (next year seems most likely) we'd like to try adding another elemental dragon to the rotation if we can find one that's distinct from the other in terms of the gameplay it rewards, has at least an ok thematic fit, and doesn't excessively favor particular team comps. Curious to hear if anyone's got any strong suggestions? We've got some ideas kicking around of course, but also really interested in hearing other viewpoints.

I'd prefer if some worke was done on the existing dragons befor adding a new one. Cloud and Ocean still seem a bit outclassed by mountain and Infernal, espcially for winning teams. Mountain just makes burning through other dragons and baron much easier, so it becomes hard for a team that is behind to contest those in time. I've seen barons die in ~5sec lategame, there is not much you can do to contest that, even with 3 clouds you probably won't be their in time if you run from your inner mid by the moment they start it

Infernal is bad design overall, it heavily favours some champions over others(those that like big ap/ad values benefit alot more than supports/tanks/on-hit) and is to generalistic as the increased stats not only help fighting champs, but also with takeing objectives and clearing waves/jungle. Also, fighting champs is so essential to the game that haveing improved fighting power is very desirable anyway. I think it would be a lot better if Infernal increased damage dealt vs champs by some %, this way it won't help at takeing objectives and helps everyone at dealing damage, wether they rely on basedamage, on-hit or ap/ad scaleings.

And finaly, fighting Infernal dragon is to easy. The aoe is just not enough, it's pretty easiely avoided. And asides from that he has nothing. Cloud has the highest singletarget dps so it's hard to solo, Ocean's slow makes it more dangerous if you get spotted by your opponents, Mountain takes longer to take so it has a higher risk and opportunity cost. Infernal just is by far the easiest to take. Maybe add some burning ground to the aoe to force constant repositioning when fighting it.

zaphod424May 9, 20175 votes

Hey meddler,

Last week u mentioned LeBlanc changes in play testing, no word on that yet, has it been delayed, or have u just not had a chance to play it?

If u do have a test, can you update us asap pls, can't wait for my champion to be fixed

Leblanc item 3070

RiotMeddlerMay 9, 20177 votes

Work on the Le Blanc changes is paused at the moment since the designer working on her is the same one working on Heimer right now. Once this patch is out he'll probably swap back to LB again.

BlackquillMay 9, 20174 votes

While I like the idea of more meaningful elemental dragons i'm afraid that due to the addition of one the chances of getting 2 or 3 of the same kind will be lower by a large margin.

RiotMeddlerMay 9, 20176 votes

To ensure 2 or 3 stacks of a buff happen an appropriate amount at present we make it so only 3 of the possible 4 dragons ever spawn in a given game. If we did add extra types we'd still limit it to 3 possible types (e.g. 3 of 5, or 3 of 6 possibilities)

AdalvarMay 9, 201710 votes

Would you consider then putting an indicator in the champ select showing which dragons will appear via RNG? That way you could draft around certain dragon types and such.

ProfDrDeathMay 9, 20177 votes

The point of the randomness of the Dragon spawns is that you don't have information on that before the game starts.

SpideraxeMay 9, 20174 votes

Meddler can I ask why Riot has been pumping out larger scope of balance changes like the Rammus and Heimer changes lately, not compalinging just curious

RiotMeddlerMay 9, 20177 votes

A little while back we decided we wanted to put more time into larger changes like Rammus/Heimer's, and less into a larger number of smaller adjustments. Thinking there was that small adjustments don't solve fundamental issues, so you in up in a perpetual cycle of whack a mole balance on problematic champions. Larger changes by contrast are more likely to lead to long term improvements in a champion's game health, making it easier to keep them balanced in the same way some champions seldom need balance work.

Sir NopeMay 9, 20173 votes

What's your current thoughts on Leona as a support?

420 gramsMay 9, 20172 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sir Nope,realm=NA,application-id=A7LBtoKc,discussion-id=KTswL4uY,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2017-05-09T16:34:47.790+0000)

What's your current thoughts on Leona as a support?

Shell brighten up your adc's day

l am Qu0tteMay 9, 20173 votes

How are you feeling about Ryze? His win rate (even for top ryze players) has fallen a good chunk in 7.9. Besides that, his win rate as a whole has been drastically low in solo queue even while he was dominating the professional scene ( Azir anyone?) Any changes planned for the future?

RiotMeddlerMay 9, 20179 votes

Ryze needs work. Right now though we're focusing first on other champs who've had much less time put into them than he has and could do with some love.

The Yetii RiderMay 9, 20174 votes

{quoted}

Ryze needs work. Right now though we're focusing first on other champs who've had much less time put into them than he has and could do with some love.

Is there ANY sort of repercussion to the past update teams for this string of failures? Playtest, ideas, numbers, is anyone getting at least a reprimand for failing yet another Ryze rework? Especially when you tacked a brand new concept of team teleportation into a character it had no business on, and then that failed as well?

Electro522May 9, 201714 votes

Why would they be reprimanded? Its not as if the community does that enough for them anyway.

TNing of PineMay 9, 20172 votes

What are your feelings so far on the things you're watching? I'm particularly curious to know Riot's take on whether new Herald seems to be in a good place.

RiotMeddlerMay 9, 20174 votes

At the very least Rift Herald doesn't look to be too weak to bother with anymore. Not sure yet if too strong or not, that assessment's also hindered a bit by some bugs that are causing the notifications when the enemy takes it to not play consistently, which effectively makes it stronger (harder to respond quickly to). We'll be fixing those in 7.10.

My personal suspicion is that it probably is a bit strong, that's just my view off some personal games since the patch went out though, not a comprehensive, well informed opinion from Riot as a whole.

FlemmanMay 9, 201711 votes

what I find strong in the new herald is not the herald itself, but how low risk it is to do it due to her having low damaga when you do it. You can face tank her alone, not dodging anything, and you will still have no risk to die.

I know that her killing poeple is something that you think is bad, but not even bothering to avoid her damage is not good too. To be fair, I wouldn't might her having a "poppy ult like" displacement on her jump foward, with smaller radius to at least make poeple a bit worried if it's a good call or not to do it due to her being a treat potential.

RiotMeddlerMay 9, 20173 votes

A bit more threat in the encounter's also an option. We erred on the side of easier to take for 7.9 given how much current RH had become ignored and was considered not worth the risk of trying to take. Certainly possible we give her a bit of damage back at some point though depending on which problems we decide to focus (difficulty responding to it being used, versus ease of getting it, versus ability to play against it when present etc).

AMYS GRAVEMay 9, 20171 votes

could you perhaps make it so RH damage scales with number of enemies present so it is harder to sneak solo it but easier as a team objective?

SilverjustMay 9, 20175 votes

or increase the turnspeed, so its harder to hit the eye solo