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Quick Gameplay Thoughts: January 10

RiotMeddler··1 votes·61,534 views

Hi folks,


Usual Disclaimers

These posts will often contain talk about future work we're doing, or planning to do, that isn't yet guaranteed to ship. The nature of the work could change or, depending on what we discover, projects mentioned may get put delayed or even stopped. If you'd like to see a Tweet whenever a new one of these posts goes up: https://twitter.com/RiotMeddler


Large patch/small patch

As previously mentioned we're going to be trying a test this year where we alternate between patches with a larger number of gameplay changes and those with a smaller number. We're interested in whether keeping the game a bit more consistent for 4 week blocks like that results in more development of strategy and interesting play since there’ll be a more stable state to explore/optimize in. We're also hoping it will allow us to get more done solving bigger picture issues (e.g. item overhauls, adding missing runes, kit updates etc), since less time will be spent on short term balance adjustments.

This is very much an experiment we're trying though. It's possible that, while it sounds promising on paper, the result is that it feels like some urgent stuff takes longer to get solved and we don't make much more progress on longer term work. If that's the case, or some other issue crops up, we'll go back to our regular patch approach.

8.2 will be the first of the larger patches, with 8.3 smaller, 8.4 large again etc. Important to note that this large/small cycle only applies to some types of gameplay changes, at least for now. If we're changing a bunch of items for example that'll happen in a large (even number) patch. So will most balance changes. Stuff like skins, bug fixing, rotating game modes, new client features etc won't be taking the large/small distinction into account though and will keep going out in whichever patch they’re ready for. At least for now new champs and VGUs will also continue to be in small patches as well as large. We reassess them in particular at some point if this approach shows promise, see how much benefit there is/isn’t in doing them only in large patches too. We want to start off by basically testing just wider ranging balance changes on that cycle though.


Targeted Spells and Minion Agro

Speaking of wider ranging changes here's one that will be in a large patch if we go through with it. We're currently testing a change where single target click to hit spells that deal damage (e.g. Brand E or Annie Q) will draw minion agro in the same way auto attacks already do. Not guaranteed that change ships yet, it's still in testing, but if it does it would definitely be in a large patch (potentially 8.2 or 8.4).

We're testing this approach because we believe it could make it a lot easier to balance a range of champions. Historically we've had to balance a lot of champs with click to hit spells around the assumption they'll often just be spamming that spell on the enemy until either the target dies/is driven back to base or the caster runs OOM. Pantheon's a particularly clear example of that. The result is a fairly limited play pattern, with limited options for their opponents too (suffer through it or trade back harder). We've had to do things like heavy mana gating, range nerfs, pushing champs out of lanes entirely, conversion of abilities to skillshots as a result to keep some champs in line.

Ranged auto attacks by contrast, while still having some issues, are quite a bit more nuanced because they draw minion agro. There are times for example where landing an AA on an opponent's a really poor idea because of the minion damage you'll take, or the way you’ll make the lane push. That gives windows other people can play around and opens up ways to play the lane. That’s particularly important in ranged versus melee match ups that would otherwise favor the ranged champ noticeably more if it wasn't for that minion agro call.

As said this is still a possible, not a certain change. It's also one that would hit a bunch of champs moderately hard power wise, with Panth, Kassadin and Cass being particularly on our minds. They’d almost certainly need some help afterwards as a result (Panth possibly excepted, given his current strength). Getting some more counterplay onto their baseline abilities would let us give them power in other interesting ways however. A number of champs with low counterplay laning patterns end up really restricted in what other strengths they’re allowed to have. Such a change would also potentially allow us to balance some champs in contexts we’ve had to push them out of in the past (e.g. could we get laning Elise back into play in a balanced way if Q spam wasn't so lacking in enemy response?)


Unsealed SpellBook

We're working on Unsealed Spellbook at the moment. Changes won't be in 8.2 at least, hoping for not too long after though (could be 8.3 if smaller in scope, probably 8.4 if larger). One thing we are trying that I figured would be of interest given it's been a frequent suggestion, is allowing people with Unsealed Spellbook to select some older Summoner Spells that aren't generally in the game anymore. Still trying to figure out which ones we should offer. Some seem pretty safe (e.g. Clarity). Others are really interesting, but might be problematic (e.g. Revive). Will update with where we're at after some more testing and discussion.


Game Pacing Update

We're still looking into game pacing/snowball this week. As of Monday (time of writing) we're getting some changes in for testing to make towers a bit tougher early game. Average game times after the pre-season patch times didn't change that much. Almost all of the time lost however was from laning phase and we feel that’s pushed laning phase down to too short a duration. We’re testing changes to restore a bit of time to it as a result, along with potentially some changes to a couple of snowbally elements (e.g. a potential nerf to Triumph on the gold and/or HP regen).

One thing that makes snowball/pacing trickier subjects to work on is that player viewpoints on them are very disparate. We see some online communities of players for example currently argue that games need to be much longer and snowball is very excessive. Other groups however have different takes. We also do some randomized surveying of LoL players, with a recent (start of January) survey to players in North America, Brazil and Korea (1500 players after they'd finished an SR game). That suggested that on average those people at least wanted a slightly shorter game than they’re getting at present. They also felt that snowball is in an ok state and similar in magnitude to when we surveyed at the start of 2017 and 2018. Strong contrasts in opinion like that make for a trickier space to navigate.

We're going to keep digging into snowball and pacing over the coming weeks though of course, see which hypothesis we can build enough confidence in to act on them. We're confident enough in the loss of laning phase time, based off a combination of player feedback, direct observation of games and collected data for example to test changes to address that. For changes beyond that we'll need to do some more work though. First we'll be processing survey data from other regions (China’s up next). We’ll then looking into how perception of game pacing/snowball does or doesn't change at different MMR bands (e.g. how do opinions in Silver compare to opinions in Diamond?). We also need to break down a bunch of the data we’ve gathered by other segments too (e.g. what’s the exact distribution within those averages of people with strong feelings either way, versus comparatively neutral about things?).

http://ddragon.leagueoflegends.com/cdn/6.24.1/img/champion/Ziggs.png

402 Comments

zippyHD30 votes

Hello Meddler - Any information on LeBlanc? The tweaks you were talking about to make her a mix of pre and current LeBlanc?

Do you think you will?

  • Are you reverting something, like with Rengar?
  • Are you going to make W(Distortion) do the main damage again and nerf the passive(waveclear)?
  • Are these tweaks going to be before or after Rengar is coming out?(patch 8.3 or 8.4?)

Hope you will respond, would be much appreciated.

Fisher No Chains10 votes

Please answer us. Even if you just tell us that you have no information at the moment, it’s still better than silence about something we deeply care about. :(

RiotMeddler83 votes

I don't have any update on LB at present sorry. Certainly still well aware of the need for work there, still intending to do it and paying attention to posts like these. Can't answer any of those questions with confidence beyond that the Rengar stuff will almost certainly come out first.

Edit: Could people not downvote posts like this just because it's not what you want to hear please? Quite understand the desire to see change faster. Downvoting doesn't have affect that at all though, it just makes it so this response is hidden for people like the two posters above looking for a reply. If you think this is a poor call on our part, post about it wherever you wish of course, but please don't just bury the conversation.

Kiraid Lciem16 votes

If the downvote is not for downvoting, then the forum software needs to be updated. Riot could use "Interesting and Agree", "Interesting but Disagree", and "Uninteresting or Nonconstructive". The first two increase visibility while the last one decreases it.

Àhrí19 votes

Current thoughts on Ahri? Specifically her W?

I am Razgriz3 votes

I never play Ahri and even I can acknowledge her W is one of the most lackluster in the game. Ezreal's being second.

Incheon13 votes

Hello Meddler,

Any new information about the upcoming Rengar changes? Will you do any other changes besides reverting his Q?

RiotMeddler17 votes

Nothing new to report yet. It's being worked on at present, both getting the art together and figuring out exactly which version of older Q is most appropriate (trending towards Attack Speed as empower bonus) and what corresponding changes might need to be made elsewhere.

martincastillo26 votes

{quoted}

Nothing new to report yet. It's being worked on at present, both getting the art together and figuring out exactly which version of older Q is most appropriate (trending towards Attack Speed as empower bonus) and what corresponding changes might need to be made elsewhere.

Hey Meddler,

You mention that the EMPQ bonus would be AS, but there will be no extra damage on EMPQ? Also, will there be any tweaks to his ult so it can be used as an assassination tool once again? Thank you for looking at Rengar!Rengar

Dısdaın4 votes

Can we expect the Rengar changes in the 8.3 PBE cycle?

IoLana10 votes

Morning Meddler, hope you had a good holiday vacation, do you guys have any plans for Lucian with his identity/power crisis he's been the weakest marksmen for a very long time now and lost his identity of what he's supposed to be. It feels as though he's weak at all stages of the game since other marksmen have more damage than him. And doesn't really synergize with crit. The second part of his passive applies the reduced attack damage on his crit aswell. can you guys try making his Q And r crit, and do something about his w?

Also what are you guys looking to nerf on vayne this patch. Ik she's kinda strong rn but all of her counters have been nerfed or just really bad (Lucian, Caitlyn) limiting her competition. Plz let it be a light nerf, vayne was not a problem when the lane bullies and poke supports were viable to put her behind with their constant harass.

Any info is good.

RiotMeddler13 votes

Lucian buffs are likely, probably looking at his passive in terms of how it rewards XP a lot (makes it harder for him bot lane) and how it interacts with crit (e.g. second shot damage).

JabaTheHat3 votes

Hi Meddler can you please comment on vayne as well? Just like the OP said, it's better to nerf her lightly but also buff lucian, and in particular, cait(her biggest counter traditionally).

If vayne is over-nerfed and/or lucian+cait are still too weak, twitch and trist will ONCE AGAIN, become the dominate adcs(though less popular because they're not as fun to play for most people). Even right now twitch and trist are still doing quite well. Twitch and trist have been top 5 adcs for so many months now(maybe even more than a year at this point, I can't quite remember). And these two are good both in solo queue and pro play so they're even more important balance.

Rich Homie Rengo10 votes

Yo meddler, i know your probably bored to hell with all the rengar suggestions, but please just make sure you get in all the sound effects, vfx and quotes this time around - the humming noise and vfx when his q is active, the humming noise and circle effect on his blades when he gets attack speed from it, the 3rd ult quote (raaaaaaaaaaagh....), the full stacks noise. I miss that stuff, made the champ more satisfying and fun to play. Honestly, i think many players are of the opinion that all the old sounds (like his leap, w, ult), made him more unique and fitted his theme better, a lot of the new ones sound mismatched with the older ones. Thanks for working on him though, your bringing back the fun in this game for a surprisingly large amount of players, me included

PS - I know your only intention right now is to work on the Q, but would you ever consider giving his ult the cast time interaction like it used to have, with a longer fade when taking damage? Would be a nice qol, the old fade felt more smooth and less disjointed, and had clearer lines between when your ult is active and when it isnt.

c1rcus3 votes

PLEASE I MISSED THIS

ßiggie Cheese7 votes

Meddler,

Any new direction for Volibear buffs? VGU is certain, but very distant future - something to help Volibear players in the mean time would be appreciated. He is also an aftershock user - so please keep this in mind.

RiotMeddler18 votes

Disclaimer: Not making any promises this, is an example of the sort of changes we're currently testing, not a guarantee that this, something like this, or even any change at all, ships soon.

What we're currently trying out is adding a brief knockback to his E against all targets (champs as well as minions). It's brief, so it's not moving people that far or CCing them for very long. It is however showing promise as a tool to interrupt dashes and channels which gives him both some power, particular in certain circumstances, and a bit more skill expression for those getting the timing right.

ßiggie Cheese6 votes

Sounds great, thanks for taking the time to answer my question. Just wondering, why does Volibear Q and E have such low base damages for having long cooldowns?

Seviel Vorose6 votes

Hi Meddler! A question about Syndra: if the bugfixes won't end up being enough to help her, what do you guys plan to buff of her kit exactly?

RiotMeddler31 votes

Probably make her R global, make sure everyone gets a turn getting spheres to the face.

More seriously, not certain. We didn't talk about Syndra in detail in our patch planning session for 8.2 because belief was these bug fixes would have a decent impact, so it seemed better to use that discussion time on other champs. A likely direction would be trying to sharpen when you want to pick her a bit more. Make it so she's not so much a 'pick always if at least moderately strong' champ as much.

Jinzo Torrance6 votes

What are the proposed nerfs for Malzahar? I looked on PBE but still nothing, or you are holding them back to see how his E drawing creep aggro for 4 seconds plans out?

World Ender5 votes

Hi Meddler, good morning.

I was wondering if there's any more news on bruiser itemization and/or the new keystone, aimed at helping them out? The recent Resolve stat changes in 8.1 should definitely help to some degree, and it makes sense that you'd want to wait for this change to be out for a while and then reassess. Simply curious as to whether, over the break, if these things were scrapped or if they're still on the table.

RiotMeddler11 votes

New keystone went into internal testing yesterday. I haven't played it myself yet, like it on paper though. If that goes well should be able to at least share tooltips within a couple of weeks (would take longer than that to get into a patch given need to build art for it). It that doesn't go well timing's uncertain.

Crocodilo Maroto5 votes

Hey Meddler. Another Patch and no Swain info despiste Reav3 talked about his new soul mechanic on Reddit last month. Can you confirm he will not be teased/revealed this month? People, especially Swain mains are getting desperate to see what the man looks like. Cheers

RiotMeddler9 votes

As usual, I'm going to leave exact release timings, reveals of teasers etc up to the folks who work on new champs/VGUs. They plan this stuff out and have worked on it for months each time, so really wouldn't want to undercut that.

Can tell you he's not in 8.2 though now that 8.2 PBE is out. We're not going to add him to the PBE late in the cycle.

Primaquarius4 votes

Wait dont minions already aggro to you when you attack an enemy Champion by any means?

RiotMeddler25 votes

Minions agro onto you if you hit a champion with a basic attack at present. Spell damage on enemy champs, with a couple of exceptions, won't draw minions off their current target and onto you. That means champs who get their laning harass from spells instead of AAs pay a lower price for the same reliability on targeted spells, hence our interest in this possible change.

Valencie2 votes

[deleted]

RiotMeddler18 votes

{quoted}

no plz

Any context to your concerns? We're at the stage with this change where detailed feedback's extremely useful.

Camsaiga3 votes

Meddler I was wondering how this would work with Aurelion Sol? Could people simply walk into a star and keep pushing aggro on Aurelion thus making his lane phase possibly the worst in the game?

a baby rabbit5 votes

I could be wrong, but I don't believe the stars are considered "Targeted". So this shouldn't affect him at all.

RiotZenonTheStoic14 votes

Rabbit is correct. Stars are skillshots (technically circle missiles). We're only talking about stuff where you put your mouse over an enemy, press a button, and they take damage pretty much no matter what.

Mysticman895 votes

So something like using Malz visions on a champ draws minion aggro, but using malz visions on a minion, having that minion die, and having the visions jump to a champion will not draw aggro?

Vekkna5 votes

{quoted}

Any context to your concerns? We're at the stage with this change where detailed feedback's extremely useful.

To me, the primary concern is pretty obvious: item 1055 item 1053 item 3077

Auto attackers have tools to deal with minion agro via the item system. AP casters are completely at the mercy of their kit. Some of the AP champs you would want to hit hardest are the same ones with the best tools to deal with the minion damage, like...

Cassiopeia Ryze Akali Nunu Fiddlesticks Swain Vladimir

But then you have a set of APs with targeted spells who basically give the enemy a free ignite's worth of minion damage in any all-in (or completely negate their poking). Like...

Annie Brand Katarina Kassadin Karma Leblanc Malzahar Shaco Singed Teemo

And in some of these cases, you make conscious choices to avoid getting minion agro. On Singed, choosing not to aa during fling. On Kat, playing around the aa reset on shunpo. On Annie, poking with Q and csing with aa.

Leblanc is the biggest loser here, because she'll have to tank the entire wave for her passive duration, then blink back into the wave, then drop agro. It's suicidal. And a lot of Kat's and Kass's laning phase is whittling down enemies with Q before going in later.

Seems like a lot of work and disruption to avoid a direct nerf to Pantheon.

Radiant Seraph4 votes

Does this mean the AP item pass will be in 8.4 then?

RiotMeddler8 votes

Possibly. We would want it to be in a large (even numbered, at least for now) patch, so that would be the next possible window.

Radiant Seraph5 votes

Is there any news about it? I seriously think you should inform the players about the specifics of bigger changes like this with more time until release, so we can give you feedback. Will there be a post detailing changes anytime soon?

redniwediS3 votes

We're working on Unsealed Spellbook at the moment. Changes won't be in 8.2 at least, hoping for not too long after though (could be 8.3 if smaller in scope, probably 8.4 if larger). One thing we are trying that I figured would be of interest given it's been a frequent suggestion, is allowing people with Unsealed Spellbook to select some older Summoner Spells that aren't generally in the game anymore. Still trying to figure out which ones we should offer. Some seem pretty safe (e.g. Clarity). Others are really interesting, but might be problematic (e.g. Revive). Will update with where we're at after some more testing and discussion.

Back in season 3 I was playing with a small group that was trying to practice for team ranked. We were each high silver/low gold players individually, but our team play was solidly bronze. We mostly did normals because we rarely had the full team together, but we had a great deal of fun.

I was mostly a top lane main, but my secondary role was support. I always enjoy champions with simple kits who rely on game knowledge, and that didn't really match any of the supports I was playing, so I found my own way to take my top lane experience bot. I started taking Clairvoyance every game, and used my experience of watching my jungler clear from top lane to start tracking the enemy jungler. It didn't start out well, and I'd run into people will really odd clear paths, but most of the time I could give my team some much needed information about where the enemy jungler was. A few times I even got accused of fog of war hacking, which was extra funny because if I was I wouldn't have needed Clairvoyance.

Any chance you're considering Clairvoyance in your list of options? I don't know how often it would be used by other people, but I'd sure be giving it a go.

RiotMeddler10 votes

We've talked a bit about Clairvoyance, in particular since we figured there are some folks such as yourself out there who enjoyed it and would like to see it back. It's one of the more doubtful ones though because if it's strong enough to be a good choice it results in reliable vision for no risk, leading to difficulties with things like securing vision control around objectives sufficiently, limited early jungler ability to gank etc. With other sources of vision like trinkets that's much less of an issue since we can tune them to the correct spot as needed. CV however needs to have enough strength in it to compete against other Summoner Spells like TP though.

PremadeXayahADC3 votes

Can we expect the Shopkeeper update in the Summoner Rift this year? It was said that a voice should be added, but the shopkeeper has to be redone again

RiotMeddler15 votes

I don't believe we're planning to make any shopkeeper changes anymore. If we've got spare Voice Over time it'd go into updating some older champ VO instead.

KinfThaDerp2 votes

About that new keystone that went into testing as you said in one of the comments, could you tell us who it's directed towards? ( Bruisers , Tanks , Assasins , ADCs etc. )

RiotMeddler11 votes

Champs who deal sustained damage, want to be at least somewhat tanky and aren't served sufficiently by Grasp at present. Would expect Bruisers to be particularly drawn to it if it works out, definitely not a thing for bursty and squishy champs like assassins.

1nsan1tyy4 votes

Will Melee "slayers" Fiora, Yasuo, Yi ,Tryndamere get a keystone optimized for them? They feel pretty damn awful to play due to the of Melee range plus increased damage by most champs especially AP/supports as well as reduced resistances all round. Don't know how others feel but from my observation of playing these champs and playing against them, due to the pre-season shift they lack enough damage when sustained and lack the survivability to do good sustained damage, unlike ranged carries who can harass safely.

Zed genius1 votes

[deleted]

RiotMeddler10 votes

Edit: Guess I should have quoted. Was a post complaining about nerfs to Triumph when Overheal/Targon's/Fleet Footwork exist.

Targon's is going to get adjustments too. Currently looking at both whether it's too strong in general after the addition of the extra healing in pre-season and/or whether there's not enough trade off for the sustain you get in taking it on CSing champs. Targon's supports are generally doing very well, there's a lot of overlap there with Aftershock being strong too though to disentangle.

BleKz2 votes

Btw, if those support item changes in pbe go through I think ap junglers with 100% still buy the ap support item for the free sightstone and extra damage, the quest was not the big part, in fact, I think this makes it even better

RiotMeddler7 votes

Not sure if it's on PBE yet, we'll likely be changing the Spellthief's proc so that killing jungle monsters extends the recharge timer significantly though.

Carnicore1 votes

Okay, let's think about what champions that change to targeted spells would affect:

Akali Annie Brand Janna Jhin? Karma? Kayle Kennen? LeBlanc Lulu Malphite Malzahar? Maokai Nami Nunu Quinn Renekton (I've heard that his W doesn't pull minion aggro but that doesn't sound correct) Shaco Swain Ryze Teemo Tristana Viktor Vladimir

Question marks because I don't know if/how this would affect AoE or DoT spells at all.

This is a pretty big change if it goes through, but I like the idea here of putting the same limits on these spells that basic attacks have. Obviously a lot of rebalancing (read: buffs) would have to follow but it could be a really good change in the long term.

RiotMeddler13 votes

There are a bunch of other champs also affected too, though many are on ults only where it's not going to matter too much (e.g. Garen R or Lissandra R). And some other champs not listed with basic targeted spells (e.g. Panth, Kass, Cass as above).

DoTs would indeed get affected by this.

Renekton W should pull agro regardless, if not that's a bug we'll fix.

Kennen wouldn't change.

Jhin would draw agro for direct Q casts, but not if he hit with the bounce.

Viktor's generally drawing agro regardless with the follow up AA on Q.

Overall, yep, would definitely need a bunch of followup balancing work, but probably buys us much better checks and balances in lane.

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