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Quick Gameplay Thoughts: August 11

RiotMeddler··1 votes·54,946 views

Hi folks,

Apologies for the late post, busier than expected morning.


Usual Disclaimers

These posts will often contain talk about future work we're doing, or planning to do, that isn't yet guaranteed to ship. The nature of the work could change or, depending on what we discover, projects mentioned may get put delayed or even stopped. If you'd like to see a Tweet whenever a new one of these posts goes up: https://twitter.com/RiotMeddler


Vayne after 7.17

Almost guaranteed that we won't have Vayne changes in 7.17. We've seen some promising bits in initial investigation (e.g. making Q unable to crit and shifting power elsewhere so she's less bursty, in particular against squishy targets). Won't have enough time in the current patch development cycle, but definitely want to revisit Vayne shortly.

Also worth noting Vayne wise that yeah, a fair number of players don't like playing against Vayne. Some of that's probably that, even if she's got average overall performance when she does do well she sometimes does extremely well, so her strong games are really in your face. We believe some of it's also part of a wider trend where, with the occasional exception, champions who are primarily or entirely single target damage focused tend to be perceived as much more frustrating than champions who aren't, regardless of their power level.


Ardent Censer, Janna, Taric

We'll be nerfing Ardent Censer in 7.17. Because of that we'll likely be leaving Janna and Taric untouched for a patch, see what impact that Censer nerf, especially following the recent Coin nerf, has on their performance. Will then reassess them both during 7.18. Still looking to get some more skill expression into Janna's kit as well at some point, though the team haven't felt the recently tested changes did a great job of that so will be trying some other stuff at some point.


7.18 Timing

Speaking of 7.18 there'll be a longer gap than usual between 7.17 and 7.18 of three weeks, rather than the usual two. That's because we need to fit one 3 week patch into the year somewhere to some patch release timing stuff around pre-season etc to work out. 7.17 made sense as a time to do that since it then gives us a bit more time when the game's pretty stable to work on Runes/other pre-season content and do a bit more assessment of final changes for the Worlds patch (7.18).


Stoneplate Tweaks

We've got a couple of adjustments for Stoneplate coming in the next patch. The first is a bug fix regarding its interaction with Cinderhulk, where the combination of the two was giving noticeably more health than it was meant to.

The second, which is still being tested, but likely to ship, is a change where the 100% extra health temporarily granted will be split between base and bonus health, rather than all be treated as bonus health. E.g. a champ with 1500 base health and 1000 bonus health would now get an extra 1500 base health and an extra 1000 bonus health, rather than 2500 bonus health. That impacts cases like Cho and Locket which scale off bonus health, so Stoneplate will likely still be a powerful combo with them but won't be giving as much power.

251 Comments

Spideraxe11 votes

Hey Meddler can I ask about Twitch, since you guys are planning on nerfing Draven and he seems to be the other sore point ADC

Malicious Metal10 votes

In regards to preseason and new starting items. Are we going to get an item for manaless Ap casters?

LyingOnLine1 votes

Manaless AP casters already have all the items they need.

Malicious Metal4 votes

Sure, name me ONE good starting item for Ap based casters that don't want mana or mana regen.

TacoXtreme3 votes

What about banshees or Liandry's? Still, I maintain that your point is a good one. Too many inefficient items for manaless casters.

Malicious Metal5 votes

I was referring to starting items, because frankly, we don't have any decent non-mana ap item for that. But yeah, there are a few decent manaless Ap items for bruisers, I build most of them on Mordekaiser anyways.

LyingOnLine5 votes

Manaless casters are already manaless. They already benefit from that. The itemization system doesn't need to be warped for their preferences too.

SzGamer2272 votes

In the context of this season? Yes. But next season every champ is being stripped of level 1 stats offered by the current runes system, meaning any champion that isn't catered to by next season's starting items are going to have a noticeably worse earlygame.

Shiesu4 votes

Question is, what champions are we talking about here? A typical choice is Gunblade/protobelt. Kennen, Vladimir and Katarina rushes it, as can champions that don't need to rush mana like Ekko. Zhonya's is also really good on all those champions.

Awoof2 votes

Starting item. Like the Doran items or dark seal. Not first item to build.

Machitaru10 votes

Hey Meddler, long time lurker of these quick gameplay thoughts. I was wondering if I could get your thoughts on jungle Ekko.

Has there been any consideration of allowing him to jungle again? Ever since his changes pushing him more to assassin than tank his base damages have been too low to be able to compete with other junglers. I personally didn't ever like tank Ekko and always played him jungle with a mix of damage and durability or straight assassin. Do you think assassin jungle Ekko is healthy for the game and if we could see some monster damage added to his passive or Q in the future?

Thanks for your time

HalcyonDweller2 votes

IMO he still works as a jungler, I've done it a few times with moderate success.

Not that I'm against making his jungling easier.

Machitaru3 votes

That is true, he can and I've done it. But in terms of effectiveness I feel he falls behind other junglers most of the time. Why should I pick Ekko over someone else if he's arguably worse then most other junglers right now?

HalcyonDweller3 votes

Personally? For the same reason you would pick any other jungler that you enjoy playing. Because you enjoy playing it.

If there is a way to make it work, you can play it. Meta or not doesn't matter so long as it can gank, farm and apply map pressure.

Machitaru5 votes

I understand what you're saying. I just don't have as much fun playing him jungle now due to his clears being slower and more dangerous. It feels like I'm handicapping myself picking him jungle. His clearing and his ganking were never the issue before, his build being almost fully tank was. I'd just like him to finish his first clear a bit more healthy and maybe a bit faster since they took away base damage from his abilities due to tank Ekko.

As Meddler said, tank Ekko was the issue not his jungling. The base damage nerfs to his Q weakened his jungling overall instead of just his tank build. Some monster damage somewhere on his kit would be very appreciated.

HalcyonDweller5 votes

Ah, okay I understand better now. Yes, I feel you there. It would be nice to give him a little jungle power back after the nerfs that reduced his effectiveness.

RiotMeddler18 votes

I could see jungle Ekko being fine, issues we saw previously seemed to be much more about the tank build than Ekko in the jungle. Can't make any promises about working on jungle support for him soon necessarily though, work for pre-season especially's eating most of our time at this point.

AirKingNeo11 votes

Just give his Q +X damage to jungle monsters. Ekko lost the extra low ulility and base damage to be viable as a tank.

Tank Ekko literally can't come back.

Shadow Hazard10 votes

actually it is very easy to make him viable for the jungle again. the change that killed it was nerfing his passive for everyone. make the passive lockout lower for jungle monsters and ekko will be fully viable in the jungle again without doing anything to his lane capability.

Carnicore16 votes

Just give his passive a reduced cooldown against monsters. It would greatly help jungle Ekko while barely affecting his strength as a laner.

CAPTAlN lNSAN08 votes

A million times 'this'.

GAARĂ8 votes

Hello Meddler , Any plans regarding Lissandra and her passive ?

RiotMeddler10 votes

Someday probably, in the short to moderate term, no.

yoshi27903 votes

:( I really want her to be viable again, I love playing her, but everytime I pick her I feel so useless...

Mordepool5 votes

Have you considered having Janna's tornado curve based on Janna's relatively close position at the tornadoes released

Where tornado ends up @(J2) ...@ (J1)
.. '. .... .' .... '... .' ...... ©
(J1) (J2) Jannas position

tornado start position" ©"still directional based and doesn't change but if Janna. Stays close to her tornado she can have the tornado curve?

Hard to diagram, periods are used to get the right spacing

Hope this is helpful

HalcyonDweller8 votes

Just another idea for Janna changes, it might be interesting if she could change the direction of the tornado's movement and if it lasted a little bit longer.

There's something terrifying about getting chased by a tornado, and it might be really cool mechanically if it's possible for the tornado to be turned or to follow a target.

Apex Support10 votes

Something like if you hit your w on a target your tornado will chase that person.

HalcyonDweller7 votes

OMG that would be sooo cool!

Pyrofiend5 votes

Nice. Thoughts on Poppy's current state?

SirPurrr5 votes

I have a concern with the new runes. I require 20% CDR/lvl from runes for my builds because I want to build Sorcs and not Ionian. It seems like now it's max 10% and I'd be pigeonholed into Ionian.

OceanicEyes4 votes

Hey Meddler, thanks as always for the updates.

What are your thoughts on how Mundo is doing with his recent magic resist buff on E? Are you happy with the change?

And out of curiosity, if the Stoneplate change ended up not being enough, is making the health gained 100% base health something that you're considering?

RiotMeddler9 votes

Mundo seems reasonable so far. We were tracking jungle Mundo especially with suspicion he might be overperforming there, doesn't seem out of line in terms of actual impact in game though.

Not sure if 100% base health has been brought up, could take that approach if necessary. Generally we want to enable item combos where possible provided the current tuning can be found. 100% base would certainly ensure extreme bonus HP scaling interactions didn't happen, but would also remove the possibility of balanced ones too. Hopefully won't have to go there.

The Cane Master1 votes

DrMundo has been released in 2009. Flashnews, today is the 2nd half of 2017 and he still suffers from having extremely binary kit and such gameplay, why don't you rework him already? Better rework Ryze each LCS split?

The Last Ballad11 votes

Because dispite his binary kit, there are champs who fair far worse than him(hello 193 or so bugs morde), shouldn't they be also prioritized?

The Cane Master1 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Last Ballad,realm=NA,application-id=A7LBtoKc,discussion-id=K0oeULbr,comment-id=0000000000010000,timestamp=2017-08-11T21:52:18.695+0000)

Because dispite his binary kit, there are champs who fair far worse than him(hello 193 or so bugs morde), shouldn't they be also prioritized?

Except Mordekaiser update got released in patch 5.16, which was 2 years ago. DrMundo was released in 2017, which is 7 years ago. 7>2 last time I checked.

P.S. Ryze also got reworked 4 times, and all were fails. It's time Riot stops making the same mistakes and focus on things that haven't gotten any attention whatsoever.

Aryador2 votes

they failed because they kept trying to keep ryze from having a dmg ultimate which in turns mean that his dmg output much be high enough even without any ultimate something that even cassiopeia and karthus actually have. The idea of a magician casting spells like a machine gun is already out of place but when combined with the fact that ryze needs his basics spells to be his only source of dmg you can't make it balanced no matter how you spin it unless you create specific condition for said spell to be efficient. Cassiopeai Q can actually be fking dodged unlike ryze E, karthus Q can be dodged AND need you to be isolated to actually hurt like a truck, ryze can root you for 2s and thus not miss a single Q or hit you anyway with the boucing effect.

The Cane Master1 votes

{quoted}

they failed because they kept trying to keep ryze from having a dmg ultimate which in turns mean that his dmg output much be high enough even without any ultimate something that even cassiopeia and karthus actually have. The idea of a magician casting spells like a machine gun is already out of place but when combined with the fact that ryze needs his basics spells to be his only source of dmg you can't make it balanced no matter how you spin it unless you create specific condition for said spell to be efficient. Cassiopeai Q can actually be fking dodged unlike ryze E, karthus Q can be dodged AND need you to be isolated to actually hurt like a truck, ryze can root you for 2s and thus not miss a single Q or hit you anyway with the boucing effect.

Don't you think Riot was aware of all this before, during and after the newest version of Ryze was released? Seems like internal playtesting team either really liked Ryze so that they said it was balanced, or they were just incompetent of realizing how broken it's going to be. Mind you, prior to this latest version, there had been another 2 reworks that were also broken as fuck. Conclusion: Riot could have devoted that time and human resources to rework 4 outdated champion (one of whom is DrMundo ) and get closer to ''diversity'' meme they were stipulating coming into season 5. Instead we are having 30+ champions that are not only trash in competitive play (0% pro pick rate) but are so outdated that are unusable in higher elo solo queue (plat+).

Aryador2 votes

Do I really have to answer the rhetorical question ? Because yes I think they were incompetent enough not to realize it or too emotionally attached to the champion "identity" that they try their hardest not to stray away from non dmg ult resulting inevitably into a non sense.

However I do agree that many champion needs to get reworked and my only hope is that your dear mundo for that matter gets the urgot treatment.

Càne4 votes

Any plans on changing nidalee's heal? I really don't like that she's building support items after runic echoes eventhough she is suppose to be an assassin.

RiotMeddler7 votes

No plans at present, the heal's intended to add some distinction versus other champs with similar patterns. Which support items are you seeing? Ardent Censer in particular's likely an issue with that item being too strong rather than Nid's kit and I'm not aware of much Redemption building on her part.

Sun Wu Ryuumoku5 votes

i think he speak about item 3174

im gay 30005 votes

well part of the reason she builds athenes is that it gives her 45 AP in the jg from the jg item mana regen.

ImaginesTigers4 votes

Are you guys happier with where Syndra and Orianna are now, or waiting until 7.16 hits pro play to evaluate that?

On the same curve: any plans if their solo queue performance is hit too much after the repeated nerfs?

Iasleep4 votes

any plans for Ezreal? he feels like he is in a lose lose situation at the moment due to his slow scaling.

ShadowParker3 votes

What items/champions are affected by going with this paradigm for stoneplate?

RiotMeddler6 votes

Any champ with a bonus HP ratio who builds Stoneplate would be affected somewhat. Cho and Locket are likely the most visible cases at least though.

Some interactions will be unaffected if they're based off max health (e.g. Titanic Hydra's damage or Warmog's regen).

Solari Fortune3 votes

What does Riot think about ADCs starting Doran's Ring? Are you guys ok with that since they do have the trade off of not having the AD and life steal from Doran's Blade in favor of the Mana Sustain of Ring?

RiotMeddler10 votes

No concern so far, seems like a reasonable trade off since they're giving up sustain and last hitting ability versus Blade/Shield. Wouldn't surprise if there's an edge case or two who've got high enough AP ratios it's really strong on them, haven't seen anything worrying yet at least though.

Solari Fortune2 votes

So Far it seems only MF and Jhin get the most use from it atm. Sivir can somewhat pull it off but it seems most adcs will stay with Blade

loki30303 votes

i could see varus also using dorans ring too with the w passive damage as well as the mana sustain

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