Quick Gameplay Thoughts: January 16

RiotMeddler·Jan 16, 2019·1 votes·158,884 views

Hi folks,

Usual Disclaimers

These posts will often contain talk about future work we're doing, or planning to do, that isn't yet guaranteed to ship. The nature of the work could change or, depending on what we discover, projects mentioned may get delayed or even stopped. If you'd like to see a Tweet whenever a new one of these posts goes up: https://twitter.com/RiotMeddler

Why some stuff planned for 9.2's changed

Wanted to share our thinking on why some things that we talked about for 9.2 and/or were on the PBE but won't be shipping have changed. Each of these cases is a potential candidate for change in 9.3 instead still.

Akali - Work needs more time.
Camille - We're still discussing whether or not to pull the trigger on a change to Camille's E where it only CC champions (not monsters). On one hand it's likely to significantly reduces Camille's early jungle power, which we think is likely needed. It is a pretty heavy change that potentially pushes her out of the role entirely or in large part however, hence the caution and extended testing.
Irelia - Will have some changes in 9.2, also planning on further work in 9.3 or 9.4 to put some power back in to her ability to engage in longer fights (versus current skew towards strength in shorter, burst versus burst, fights).
Mundo and Shen - Are both going to be beneficiaries of the buff to Sunfire Cape in 9.2. It's a fairly small buff, but enough that we don't want to double down on champion and systemic change unnecessarily.
Relic Shield - Pulling back on the removal of the Relic + Dematerializer interaction. Biggest reason is to see how the combination of recent enchanter item buffs and upcoming crit item changes affects the bot lane ecosystem. Second reason is suspicion the change is potentially both unclear while not being that impactful even in the targeted context of hard pushing in pro play.
Viktor - Holding off on any nerfs at present, not currently convinced there's enough evidence they're needed.
Zoe - As with Mundo and Shen, we want to see where systemic changes (nerfs to Ignite and Oblivion Orb/Morello's) leave Zoe, then reassess both whether she still needs a nerf and where best to take power if so. Belief is both of those nerfs will hit her a bit more than the average user.

Some Loading Screen Changes in 9.2

As we talked about a little while back and as has been in testing on the PBE we've got an updated version of the loading screen coming. The first version of that should be in 9.2 and will include things like a revised layout, work to support the ranked 2019 changes and some performance improvements. Thanks to everyone who gave feedback on it, it's helped us tweak some stuff during the extended PBE cycle.

Other features, including text chat and premade voice chat during the loading screen are still planned, they just won't be in 9.2. We figured was better to get some improvements out earlier and others later, rather than waiting until everything was done.

Crit item changes and assessment of overall damage

Crit item changes will hopefully be in 9.3. Should be able to talk with some certainty as to which changes we are/aren't going with later next week.

In terms of overall amount of damage in the game and how we're assessing that, which cases we think are/aren't appropriate etc, should have some detailed thoughts to share soon. Might be late this week, might also be next week.

http://ddragon.leagueoflegends.com/cdn/6.24.1/img/champion/Ziggs.png

413 Comments

WinterkillJan 16, 201927 votes

This is an endless cycle of working on the same content and group of champions every single year, Meddler.

Prioritize heavy handed nerfs, buffs, and sometimes reworks to new champions and recent VGU champions. Why? Because these champions have overloaded kits and everyone at Riot are incredibly bias about them. Let's not even talk about the small group of popular champions Riot Game Developers work on every single year.
Change how the ADC role by nerfing the champions and nerfing their itemization. Half way into the season you guys realize it was a mistake to rework and nerf ADC itemization so Riot Game Developers buff specific champions. When it hits preseason ADC are reworked and buffed again, but they will probably be nerfed and reworked again at some point after the preseason. STOP TOUCHING THE ADC ROLE AND ACTUALLY WORK ON OTHER THINGS IN THIS GAME FOR ONE YEAR. SERIOUSLY.
When are Enchanters actually going to get adjustments to actual champions so they can compete and be just as fun as the overloaded new champions? When are Enchanters going to offer something unique in their kits so that they are just not sitting in the back and pressing one button? When are Enchanters actually going to be based off of their amazing lore not have their identities dictated by the LCS?

Lulu Janna Sona - Are these Enchanters ever going to get work done on them, like you said they would last year?

Karma - Where is the rework that the large majority of players do not like? You are shoving it down our throats, like the VGU, but it still has yet to come out. Where is it? Is she waiting in a long art que for 2 years just like Lissandra?

Mordekaiser Skarner - Where is the VGU/reverts? You ruined their identities and there is still no talk about making them better.

MonkeyKing - Not a single Developer ever talks about him, but the community is constantly asking for a new passive and actual work to be done on him. Where is it?

2019 is the same old Riot Game Developers purposely wasting half of the year working on the same crap they do every year. Rework ADC, prioritize reworks and massive adjustments to popular and new champions/VGU, make promises and fall back on them, ignore conversations and requests about other champions. Why bother supporting any Riot Game Developer anymore? It's just another year talking about how useless ADC are but come the middle of the year they nerf them because the class becomes too overpowered. Then ADC are buffed again in preseason and it has been going on for 3 to 4 years now. When are these Developers actually going to DO SOMETHING FOR OTHER CHAMPIONS THAT ARE NOT POPULAR, NEW, OR A RECENT VGU? Like, it's so annoying to fight for other champions every year to see NOTHING BEING DONE. Nothing is actually getting better with this game and these Developer's work ethic is just continuing to slack year after year.

The majority of us want to have faith in this Development team to be an advocate for all 150 plus champions and actually talk and work on them. The harsh reality is only about 30 to 40 champions really get attention every year and the Developers talk about them. These champions are popular ones, new ones, or recent VGU ones. It's becoming quite clear where Developer alliances really lie. There is no effort actually being done on older, mistakes on champions, and outlying champions by this Development team. The community will eventually leave because they are feeling ignored.

BlukachuJan 16, 20195 votes

Hey, nice comment. Just to let you know though, if you mention Wukong you won't get any response from Riot. That's just how that works.

KrozoidJan 16, 201916 votes

Viktor nerfs?? What?? This champ is absolute dog shit what are you going to nerf?

After3permaJan 16, 20196 votes

{quoted}

Viktor nerfs?? What?? This champ is absolute dog shit what are you going to nerf?

Few months ago “TaNk ViCtOr Is ToO BrOkEn. PlS nErF.” Loses 20 base damage, “Viktor is absolute dog shit”

shofazJan 16, 20197 votes

He is specifically talking about AP Viktor which DID get gutted. Kinda ironic that Tank Viktor is still viable while AP Viktor is doing quite badly right now. Wish they would kill Tank Viktor to make room for buffing AP Viktor.

After3permaJan 16, 20192 votes

They can’t nerf tank Viktor without nerfing AP Viktor. Viktor can also build IBG regardless.

Riot are stuck now that people have found out this IBG Viktor build. IBG Viktor doesn’t care about damage nerfs because all he cares about is perma slowing targets with Q.

They can’t kill Tank Viktor without killing AP Viktor. That’s the problem.

shofazJan 16, 20199 votes

Unless they remove the mana scaling on his Q and put more AP scaling or base values which would kill the IBG build.

Or make IBG melee only which they cant because they love Ezreal far more than Viktor.

Fire BlaustoiseJan 16, 201914 votes

Viktor - Holding off on any nerfs at present, not currently convinced there's enough evidence they're needed.

not enough evidence ??? just look at pro if high elo games don't convince you (if we are talking about Viktop).

Zoe - As with Mundo and Shen, we want to see where systemic changes (nerfs to Ignite and Oblivion Orb/Morello's) leave Zoe, then reassess both whether she still needs a nerf and where best to take power if so. Belief is both of those nerfs will hit her a bit more than the average user.

Im more surprised you have no plan to nerf item 3135 & item 3285

RiotMeddlerJan 16, 201960 votes

[{quoted}](name=Fire Blaustoise,realm=EUW,application-id=A7LBtoKc,discussion-id=JeoGRXbm,comment-id=0009,timestamp=2019-01-16T16:42:26.070+0000)

not enough evidence ??? just look at pro if high elo games don't convince you (if we are talking about Viktop).

Im more surprised you have no plan to nerf &

So, I debated whether to bring this up the other day. Decided today it was worth talking about though. If someone's going to attack other Rioters, call for them to be fired etc (as per your account name in this case) I'm not going to engage with their posts. They may or may not have some valid points to make. I believe we should be trying to build a better quality of conversation than that sort of attack though. Would still expect and be onboard with a lot of debate, disagreement, criticism of our decisions etc of course. Directly attacking people's something I don't want to ignore or encourage however. If your goal by doing so is to draw attention to particular issues all it's doing is making it harder to have conversations about them.

MrFluffyPuffyJan 16, 201927 votes

Directly attacking people's something I don't want to ignore or encourage however.

I completely agree with this.

It´s way easier to ignore a colleague retweeting jokes about suicide and harassing larger groups of people.

FukwonJan 16, 201914 votes

Hey Meddler, just want to let you know that Hails of Blades is extremely buggy and inconsistent

Following patch 8.20, because of Jhin's weird attackspeed-scaling ad interaction. you guys have made it so the First auto-attack you throw does NOT benefit from Hail of Blades, thus making the keystone only enhance 2 autos. "

The triggering attack no longer benefits from the bonus attack speed."

Now the thing is that recently the first auto DOES benefit from the attackspeed again BUT ONLY ON CERTAIN CHAMPIONS

HoB works on: Caitlyn, Ashe, Miss Fortune, Xerath, Nunu And is utter shit on: Bard, Karthus, Amumu, Garen, Singed

I haven't tested much more because of my very limited champion pool but please note that this seems to only be an issue on champions with rather long auto-attack animations. You will notice how PAINFULLY SLOW the first auto attack is compared to the following 2 on certain champions whereas they seem just as fast on others

I think we need to make these interactions consistent. As a Bard one-trick who used to absolutely love running Hail of Blades pre-8.20, this keystone now makes me want to peel my face off because of the sheer clunkiness and unsatisfaction from having a keystone that enhances 2 autos but only after i throw a super slow one.

Thanks for taking the time to read this, pls fix <3

UlkususJan 16, 20199 votes

Any plans to nerf conqueror?

ΗuaweiJan 17, 20193 votes

{quoted}

Any plans to nerf conqueror?

If Conqueror gets nerfed or reworked it will be a pretty solid start to make defensive itemization appealing again

KrasittoJan 16, 20198 votes

yo Meddler where is the Renekton buff ?

RiotMeddlerJan 16, 201912 votes

Hmm, not sure where that's up to off the top of the head. Lemme check in with the team and see where their thinking's up to.

RiotMeddlerJan 16, 20197 votes

Ok, turns out Renekton was just a casualty of too much to do in one patch. Won't have changes in 9.2, will be back on the list for 9.3 though, assuming nothing major changes in the meantime.

HomeRegionJan 16, 20198 votes

I very much doubt the fact the 150gold reduction on Sunfire cape will break Shen. Can you please let us know what you're planning for Shen? or at least what you originally planned? Also I really want to know what do you feel like are Shen's weaknesses and in what he should be improved

RiotMeddlerJan 16, 20197 votes

I don't believe we got as far as specifics for Shen/Mundo. Agree it's unlikely Sunfire has a dramatic effect on either. We were thinking pretty small buffs originally though and had to delay some work regardless (lot going on this patch). That plus whatever the Sunfire buff offers was enough to move them from 9.2.

astralwitJan 16, 20193 votes

{quoted}

I don't believe we got as far as specifics for Shen/Mundo. Agree it's unlikely Sunfire has a dramatic effect on either. We were thinking pretty small buffs originally though and had to delay some work regardless (lot going on this patch). That plus whatever the Sunfire buff offers was enough to move them from 9.2.

Jungle Mundo needs buffs regardless since it's unaffected by Sunfire.

I also hope you guys will look into doing something for Ekko jungle. With the passive bonus damage vs monsters introduced, I'm trusting Riot to support him in this role. He's by far my favorite jungler so I hope you guys don't drop the ball on him. Ever since the DH rework, he just hasn't felt good at all. The jungle nerfs will probably hit him even harder because he will be underlevelled to duel laners or make ballsy plays. Oblivion Orb was also a core part of my build, as was Morello. Both got hit and he is already C+ tier at best.

His scaling isn't there anymore and that was a big part of his fantasy (genius kid building all kinds of tools and weapons). I played a little Vi and she already seems like a sizeable improvement despite not being considered top tier. Unfortunately, I don't like Vi to the same extent so I barely played during preseason. Ekko has so many options and subtleties that he never gets old. His kit isn't hard to understand but it is very hard to master.

SpideraxeJan 16, 20197 votes

Morning Meddler! Can you share overall how you think the tank changes for Ornn, Sejuani and Galio have landed overall. Did they hit your goals

RiotMeddlerJan 16, 201912 votes

Galio - Overbuffed so hard at present to tell whether the changes reduced his pro versus regular play gap, given he's just the right choice everywhere. Should get a clearer read after the 9.2 nerfs.

Sejuani - Too early to say. Seeing her get pro play already, not sure if it'll be a healthy amount or not. Her performance in regular play seems around appropriate.

Ornn - Missed the mark on power initially at least, though there's a moderate amount of relearning curve and his play rate tripled post changes which tends to depress average performance for a while until new players learn the champ or go back to playing other things. Going to add a little bit of early power (base hp and armor) in 9.2, then reassess where adaptation plus those stats leaves him in both contexts.

Côco AtrevidoJan 16, 20198 votes

{quoted}

Galio - Overbuffed so hard at present to tell whether the changes reduced his pro versus regular play gap, given he's just the right choice everywhere. Should get a clearer read after the 9.2 nerfs.

Sejuani - Too early to say. Seeing her get pro play already, not sure if it'll be a healthy amount or not. Her performance in regular play seems around appropriate.

Ornn - Missed the mark on power initially at least, though there's a moderate amount of relearning curve and his play rate tripled post changes which tends to depress average performance for a while until new players learn the champ or go back to playing other things. Going to add a little bit of early power (base hp and armor) in 9.2, then reassess where adaptation plus those stats leaves him in both contexts.

Just remove Galio dmg and give his utility back. He is a anti-mage warden tank that can build ap, not a melee burst mage. You are removing his identity and still can't fix the problem

Marco1291Jan 16, 20197 votes

Hey Meddler, what about the original shojin design/purpose?(an item for lighter fighter to make their teamfight potential a bit better).

Does shojin replacing ER means that that design is dead?

Daniel LarussoJan 16, 20197 votes

With the upcoming changes, Diana is gonna be nerfed a lot indirectly . Electrocute nerf was huge, now ignite and oblivion orb. That's pretty huge for her. When are you planning to buff Azir tho? He's been overnerfed for a while now

ChemcatJan 16, 20197 votes

Any insight on what were the Viktor nerfs? Mid Viktor is in a delicate position would hate to see him gutted

ThornyZyraJan 16, 20196 votes

Any plans for Zyra changes? Other than straight nerfs? I'm curious

RiotMeddlerJan 16, 20199 votes

Just the straightforward nerf at present.

meteorbreakerJan 16, 20197 votes

Are there plans for changes or buffs for Zyra mid?

Diablo v2Jan 16, 20196 votes

what happen to asol buffs?

RiotMeddlerJan 16, 201923 votes

They're still in 9.2.

Q recast time's dropped to 0.25s (from 0.65s). Q stun duration is then scaling by distance traveled so the point blank cast doesn't remove too much of an intended weakness. On live it's 1.1 to 1.5 by rank. After the changes it'll be 0.55-1.65 by distance at rank 1 to 0.75-2.25 by distance at rank 5 (or at least, that's what we're currently testing). The stun gets to the 9.1 values by 0.75s, so is as good as it was previously by the time you'd previously have been able to activate it, with both earlier casts possible and later casts more rewarding.

Diablo v2Jan 16, 20194 votes

is there a chance of reverting this chance and buffiing something else

RiotMeddlerJan 16, 20198 votes

What are your concerns with this approach?

Crow NebulaJan 16, 201926 votes

I think many of us would like to see Sol completely overhauled. Of course, there are a vocal minority of die-hard Sol players who are adamant that nothing about Sol must be changed, and they will probably downvote this post, but the truth is, Sol's kit is fundamentally awkward and boring, with limited options, little interactivity, and no ability to make flashy plays. Circling an enemy while your stars repetitively bump into them is just not an exciting way to score a take down.

It's a shame because Sol is visually and thematically one of the most appealing champs in the game. I only wish his gameplay reflected the fantasy of controlling a celestial god-dragon rather than a hula-hoop dancer.

KaìjuJan 16, 20194 votes

Die hard Sol player here, I hope he gets a full rework because man he is so polarizing and I hate how squishy he is due to item changes in the past. He's one of the only battle mages without a heal or shield in his kit.

TrialByKegJan 16, 20196 votes

Regarding Oblivion Orb

Guys you need to understand that the broken/OP stuff about this item is the 15 MagicPen on it. Many players rush Ludens, Sorc Boots, Oblivion orb -->next different item.

you dont need to nerf the AP on morello. You need to nerf the MPen on the orb

Sassmast3rJan 16, 20196 votes

Karma rework?

Enjoyable timeJan 16, 20196 votes

Hi Meddler! A question regarding Jax and other champions considered too strong at the moment. Wouldn't be easier to nerf the cooldowns on certain key abilities like Jax's E so there is more counterplay potential?

Frosted TipsJan 16, 20196 votes

So why are you thinking about buffing Mundo a champion that needs a reowrk? He is horribly dated.

DanthebestmanJan 16, 20196 votes

What do you think of the current state of Rek Sai? She is currently incredibly underplayed and I think she deserves a change.

Jar Jar binks lJan 16, 20195 votes

Meddler Im asking u for the Yorrick Subreddit.

Since u pulled off most of the Yorick buffs, are we only getting the QUality Changes on Maiden?

I get it no Cooldown on Maiden would be too strong , but why u dont let it scale from 2 Seconds to 1 Second (2,1.5,1)

Thanks in Regards Yorick Subreddit

RiotMeddlerJan 16, 201912 votes

We've still got a fair bit of Yorick stuff in 9.2, though they're the sorts of things that can be harder to spot on the PBE. Quick rundown:

Passive:

Yorick's minions no longer deal reduced damage when they are far from Yorick
Deaths required for a grave: 12/8/4 > 12/6/2 (ARAM: 4->2)
Gold given by Mist Walkers: 5 > 2

Mist Walkers and Maiden of the Mist will no longer sometimes fail to respond to Mourning Mist hits

Health: 700/1500/4000 (+30% Yorick's Health) > 300/1000/3000 (+70% Yorick's Health)
The Maiden will now follow Yorick and assist him until Yorick or Maiden dies.. Yorick can recast R to set her free, but cannot regain her after he has done so.
While following Yorick, the Maiden will leash back to Yorick if he moves too far from her

We'd like to see how the above impacts him before considering any further changes. Some of these adjustments are fairly unusual relative to normal balance changes which makes it quite a bit harder for us to estimate their power ahead of time. Playtesting still helps of course, but we'll only get a limited number of games internally and PBE's not a very useful resource for balance testing.

AIQJan 16, 20194 votes

With the incoming Jungle/Smite nerfs. Are there any additional plans to add more power to Shyvana?

Also the scaling with elder portion has not hit the PBE yet. Is it going to happen this patch or later?

As I've talked to many about her. Augmenting her abilities with new effects per dragon type seem to be what the community really wants has your teams considered it?

risbellfan123Jan 16, 20194 votes

Hello.

This is my first time commenting on one of these posts eventhough I almost always read them. Thanks for making them! I have a comment/question/suggestion on one of my absolute favourite champions in the game, Ivern. I know he's not the most popular champion in the game but he definitely isn't weak. Have you ever considered making a special jungle item just for him or have him get the extra "monster hunter experience" from his passive? I feel like for newer players building him efficiently can be a challenge and require some game knowledge that you don't necessarily think about when you have just started the game. I know people who have tried Ivern and then immediately dropped him because they are confused about what to build on him. Most of the high elo players only buy Hunter's Talisman for the experience and leave it there. Instead, It's better to just rush the super cost efficient support items. I guess there are some situation where getting the low cost AP from the finished jungle item is OK because he does have high AP ratios overall.

Any thoughts on this?

Daddy AntsJan 16, 20194 votes

I'm begging you....

PLEASE DON'T SHIP THAT PHANTOM DANCER.

Keep the one that's currently on live server.

Quote from Twitter

Definitely agree that the current passives** cement Phantom Dancer as the unique item it is**, and that changing them for Lifeline would be a step in the wrong direction.

Rolling SEvansJan 16, 20193 votes

Any thoughts on the pro v solo que difference. Is the vision for the game more heavily weighted towards one or the other? I ask cause the last year or so its felt like a lot of changes seem to have been geared more towards individual power holding a higher budget than team power.

Also, this has been a long boiling question, any thoughts on how the mage damage to turret change from 8.9 has affected the game. It's kinda been a back of the mind thought that their effectiveness at taking objectives, specifically towers, only furthered the marksmen issues seen in the latter half of the year since mages did not have the issues with taking towers they used to.

Poolparty SauronJan 16, 20192 votes

Hi Meddle <3! Do you know the specifics of the Aatrox nerf/s and do you think he needs larger work to satisfay both proplay and regular play demand.

RiotMeddlerJan 16, 20199 votes

We're currently testing:

Q damage :: 10-70(+64/68/72/76/80%tAD) >>> 10-70(+55/60/65/70/75%tAD) E recharge :: 24/20/16/12/8 >>> 26/22/18/14/10

Think it's very possible he needs additional work down the line. Having said that he's too strong in regular play too, not just pro, so possible we just need to cut power full stop as players in both contexts continue to get better at him.

pogcornJan 16, 20196 votes

{quoted}

We're currently testing:

Q damage :: 10-70(+64/68/72/76/80%tAD) >>> 10-70(+55/60/65/70/75%tAD) E recharge :: 24/20/16/12/8 >>> 26/22/18/14/10

Think it's very possible he needs additional work down the line. Having said that he's too strong in regular play too, not just pro, so possible we just need to cut power full stop as players in both contexts continue to get better at him.

so your solution to nerf a strong early, weak late game, heavy skill shot reliant champ is to nerf the late game and scaling?

while late game ticking time bomb point and click champs like karthus vayne are totally fine and need more buffs?

nikothecatJan 16, 20192 votes

Hi Meddler,

how are the changes for Volibear going? Are they gonna happen in 9.2 ?

RiotMeddlerJan 16, 20196 votes

Will probably be in 9.2.