Quick Gameplay Thoughts: August 25

RiotMeddler·Aug 25, 2017·1 votes·80,033 views

Morning all,

Usual Disclaimers

These posts will often contain talk about future work we're doing, or planning to do, that isn't yet guaranteed to ship. The nature of the work could change or, depending on what we discover, projects mentioned may get put delayed or even stopped. If you'd like to see a Tweet whenever a new one of these posts goes up: https://twitter.com/RiotMeddler

Final round of 7.18/Worlds Balance

We're approaching our final set of balance changes for Worlds at the moment. Before locking changes down we'll be assessing play over the next week, pro play on 7.16 this coming weekend in particular. We've got some potential targets we're already considering changes for as well though of course, quick run through on those below:

Possible champion buffs - Azir, Ryze, Nidalee, Ivern, Fiora, Urgot
Possible champion nerfs - Kalista, Tristana, Elise, Jarvan, Gnar
Possible item buffs - Spellthief's line
Possible item nerf - Knight's Vow

Again, these aren't guaranteed changes, just the things already being looked at. We don't have specific changes at time of writing for many of these either, though investigation's underway so we'll have something ready if we conclude they do need changes for 7.18 specifically. These are also in addition of course to other changes already in the patch on PBE already, not a complete list of 7.18 balance changes.

Looking at gold/XP as possible pre-season projects

Speaking of possible work we're also starting to look into some secondary pre-season projects. The big focus of pre-season gameplay wise will be runes, and changes like balance adjustments to champs and items to compensate for the impact runes has. Pre-seasons and mid-seasons are also the best times to do various systemic changes that can be pretty disruptive at other times of the year however. We'll therefore be looking at gold and XP acquisition, some examples of possible directions. First step will be figuring out what definitely needs changes, rather than just being something to investigate. We'll then look at what it's feasible to get done in time without sacrificing needed work on runes. Some, or possibly all of these projects will not ship, so extra important to emphasize here this is visibility on things we're investigating, not a promised set of changes:

XP gain - Jungle XP in general, XP from specific camps (Raptors start especially), XP reliability (how big a difference between a successful and an unsuccessful game should there be/is there?)
Gold - Degree of gold that comes from inherent GP10, impact on support income from Bandit removal, degree to which gaining map control and then just farming lanes and both sides of the jungle may be over rewarding non risk taking play

Getting games going quicker

Later in the year, potentially also around pre-season, we're aiming to have some further improvements to a few things to make it quicker to get to playing the game. Main things we're targeting right now are trimming a bit of time before minion spawn (with faster start of game homeguards at least to still allow jungle invades) and letting teams with two picks in a row in champ select do them both at the same time again. Matchmaking's also being worked on as usual of course, though that's often more a gradual series of improvements than an individual change to call out.

348 Comments

GinoSoldierAug 25, 201719 votes

Hello Meddler;

I'd like to ask about some basic, core gameplay designs in league that just feel off to me.

1; Champion classes having different gold investment caps in their items; There's effectively around 4K more gold in an ADC's build than in a typical Support's endgame build. I can't understand why Supports, and to a lesser extent, Tanks are relegated to subpar gold-efficiency items in contrast to the more offensive classes. Even without increasing income, wouldn't it augment general player satisfaction to know that at full build, everyone in the game has similar efficiency?

2; Towers losing effectiveness as tanks grow in power and as the game progresses. I understand that games need to end, but it feels to me like there should always be a risk to tower diving, which (although not as bad as it's been at some previous points) feels completely safe for several champions who can get in and out very quickly or too reliably. I understand we can't give Turrets %Max Health true damage, as much as i'd love it, but do you feel like some mechanic could be implemented to augment tower reliability as the game goes on?

3; In the Assassin update, you wanted to make the main Assassin squad have some window of opportunity for the poor victims to defend themselves, however there are several other sources of insane burst in the game that allow for just as little counter play as assassins did before the update. Item actives like Gunblade combined with several mage's high damage kits, lategame ADC crit damage against squishier champions, and animation cancelling or attack resets on several champions early game, like Renekton. (And yes, my main love AP Sona too can get just as absolutely ridiculous when ahead, that undodgeable Q-AA-Lich's combo gets insane.)

These questions are coming from a guy who likes his games long and planned out, so i understand i'll meet opposition from the more hot-tempered, quick-enders out there, but hey.

NorthmundAug 25, 20173 votes

I prefer longer games. Where good team fight decides. Not when my bot lane feeds and game ends :|

what you deserveAug 25, 201717 votes

The Ardent Censer "nerf" in the current patch was pretty much laughable- are you saying that you're actually done tuning it?

RiotMeddlerAug 25, 201714 votes

We'll likely take another pass at Ardent Censer soon. We decided not to hit it very hard in 7.18 given the supports that use it are already less represented in pro play than tankier types and we didn't want to create a further loss of diversity there. That's a tough call, given we're therefore trading off viewer experience for pro and state of balance for regular games on 7.18. We'll usually lean much harder on what's needed for regular play, the Worlds patch and the patch or two before it are the time of the year though where pro balance gets weighted quite a bit heavier.

GinoSoldierAug 25, 20173 votes

Would you consider making the item unable to proc off of items and runes/masteries? It feels kinda off that champions far outside of the Enchanter pool can use it simply because they can throw out an easy Redemption/Locket active, or simply with Stoneborn.

Alternatively, instead of cutting it's power, you could make the proc harder to activate, say every two or three heals/shields instead of every time, as an example.

CarnicoreAug 25, 20171 votes

I've never seen a champion without inbuilt healing or shielding buy ardent censer.

RiotMeddlerAug 25, 20177 votes

We're seeing a bit of that happen, normally with Stoneborn Pact and champs who can apply CC really reliably. Support Trundle using Pillar a lot's the clearest example of that.

RiotMeddlerAug 25, 201710 votes

I think Censer likely needs some adjustments for its primary users regardless. Making it so it doesn't proc off items, masteries etc then removes experimentation and adaptability without solving the needed problem.

Making it take multiple heals to proc would certainly make it a lot weaker, would imagine that simply guts it unless we then increase the power of the proc. Requirement for multiple casts then likely binds it to only very specific champs (e.g. still great on Soraka, no longer an option on champs without spammable heals or shields).

Linna ExcelAug 25, 20171 votes

Would it be possible to bump item 3504 up to 80AP, increase the heal/shield power to 12%, and then axe the third passive entirely?

The biggest problem with the 3rd passive is it's really only good when healing adcs, but on them it might be too good. Getting rid of that and moving the healing back into the support player's court might fix it.

AbyssphereAug 25, 20179 votes

I don't think they're ever going to take a suggestion that is just turning an item into a statstick.

GinoSoldierAug 25, 20173 votes

Fair points.

I'm in the camp of jacking up the item's cost to 3400 and shoving some more stats into it, actually, but pretty sure that goes against one or two of your current design points.

I trust you guys to make the right call.

AbyssphereAug 25, 20177 votes

Why would you ever nerf a support item by making it too expensive for supports to buy? Like, just delete it at that point.

GinoSoldierAug 25, 20171 votes

That's not how this works though. If the item is good enough, does what the support needs, and the components are decent, there's no reason why supports can't buy expensive items. It just takes longer. Hell, look at how mage supports like Brand and Annie have been operating, they didn't ever give a damn that rushing Rabadons or Luden's would take a while, they knew it'd be worth it.

Same with everyone else. If Ardent Censer cost 3600 and had 120 AP instead of 60 (the direct equivalent of a NLR stacked on top of Censer), I would sure as all hells buy it because of the amazing scalings it would give my kit supporting abilities, on top of the item's own passive.

It'd make the item amazing for Enchanters, and still not as good as Luden's on midlaner mages because of the nature of the passive on it which they straight up would be unable to use efficiently. Mind you, shoving 60 AP on it is a pretty extreme example, but you get the drift.

AbyssphereAug 25, 20174 votes

Are we seriously arguing with the pretext that support Brands and Annies rushing Luden's or even worse, DEATHCAP, are sensible people seeing success? Is this real life?

PenyuAug 25, 201712 votes

Can you help Yorick out by making the AI for maiden better? it usually just stands around doing nothing or tanks the tower and instadies.

I Sushi IAug 25, 20173 votes

^^^ Agreed, and also want to ask: what happened to Yorick's earlier potential changes making his e slow scale? This would really help out given the teamfight-centric meta we currently have which forces him to have to participate late-game instead of afk split-pushing

Sinful SorcererAug 25, 20173 votes

Yes please, and maybe let Tibbers follow people into bushes if he's aggrod on them. AI's in League feel too dumb at the moment, it's quite silly.

what you deserveAug 25, 20176 votes

Also, obligatory: When will Riot stop hating Shaco and Rengar?

Tectonic MarvelAug 25, 201738 votes

Whenever giving them buff won't make them obnoxious and without any interactivity, fair to deal with and with obvious weaknesses.

You are talking about champions that are thriving in unfair conditions and without any chance of the adversary to react. Won't be happening any time soon.

DJ S0NAAug 25, 20176 votes

How is Xin Zhao's gameplay update going? When will he make the debut of his gameplay update? And also, what abilities will be changed?

RiotMeddlerAug 25, 20177 votes

It's going pretty well, though needs some balance polish. Would expect to see it sometime in the next 2-3 patches.

World EnderAug 25, 20176 votes

The Aatrox buffs on the PBE currently (uninterruptible Q, extra range on R) are really nice. They give him more strength and ease of use without just buffing stats, which I know can often be problematic.

I'm glad you guys didn't give Aatrox that soft rework and then forget about him again. I'm curious though, if you were to go back and do it all again, would you even soft rework him or would you skip it and go straight to his full rework? No matter what his current kit seems to be a balance problem, either too weak or too strong, and ya'll have consistently kept him on the weaker side (which is understandable).

I just hope his new kit keeps the same feel as what he is now, but gives better windows of play for Aatrox an his enemies.

RiotMeddlerAug 25, 20178 votes

How much time to put into temporary updates, when we know a larger one's coming, is a tough one. It's work that can alleviate a lot of pain potentially for a while, but that will highly likely be in large part discarded in the foreseeable future. In this case I feel it was the right call, given we'd left Aatrox alone for far too long and there's a significant gap between that work earlier this year and the larger changes. For some other champs though that approach wouldn't make as much sense (e.g. if their larger work's closer, if they're in a comparatively better spot, if their problems are deep enough smaller work can't offer meaningful improvement).

TormentulaAug 25, 20176 votes

How do you feel about Kindred , Nocturne , and Urgot right now?

Kindred still hasn't lived up to the promise made by a riot that they're make them viable again, the champion overall suffers on multiple angles. I'd particular like to see if power budget from their ult was shifted around, or alternatively if a rek'sai scope update could be a future plan on them to change an ability (maybe one specifically related to wolf to balance thematics). Wouldn't mind a return of the W SFX as that was pretty special for their character, maybe even return it during the healing of their ultimate?

Nocturne I can't tell if he's weak, or if he's strong, but he's just in an odd spot right now, with low playrate but decent success. I'd love to see his early game helped out just a bit, so he can get to his mid game relatively better since dominant junglers like elise, lee, shaco, and eve make his early hell and the other tanks just make his late even more hell. He's a cool champion but he feels victim to meta trends almost every patch.

Urgot Basically did the buffs do him good so far? Or is there more work planned?

RiotMeddlerAug 25, 201713 votes

Urgot - Buffs helped a moderate amount, we'll likely do a little bit more on him sometime in the next few patches though. That's an estimate not a guarantee however.

Nocturne - I think Noc shows his age pretty hard, in particular his dependence at this point on going in and bursting someone down as only real path to success. Power wise I think he's ok, and his ult's still I'd argue one of the coolest skills in the game. Would love to see a mini update on him at some point, lot of folks we should do first though (Azir, LB for sure, likely others like Garen, Karma, Ez etc).

Kindred - We think the bigger issue with Kindred is satisfaction, rather than power. If the definition of viable being used is 'not pro viable' then yeah, they're not viable, though there's a general issue with carry style junglers in pro there. Imagine we'll put some work into them again at some point, would be surprised if it was until solidly after pre-season at the earliest however, barring new developments.

SpitemasterAug 25, 20176 votes

I don't suppose Karma getting something resembling her old kit back is remotely in the cards? Even if you don't give her her fan Q back, the shield explosion and the bond that did damage as it crossed enemies could reasonably still fit. I felt that the original Karma had the highest skillcap of any support and I think old Karma's niche is still pretty empty (other than Bard - who requires a completely different skillset). The biggest complaints about her old kit are gone now - too complicated (new champs moreso), too ally-reliant (Kalista as much or more), too heavy burden of knowledge (it's really not that bad).

I know you've said in the past that the old Karma is gone for good, but I'm still hopeful that's not true.

nınthAug 26, 20173 votes

{quoted}

I don't suppose Karma getting something resembling her old kit back is remotely in the cards? Even if you don't give her her fan Q back, the shield explosion and the bond that did damage as it crossed enemies could reasonably still fit. I felt that the original Karma had the highest skillcap of any support and I think old Karma's niche is still pretty empty (other than Bard - who requires a completely different skillset). The biggest complaints about her old kit are gone now - too complicated (new champs moreso), too ally-reliant (Kalista as much or more), too heavy burden of knowledge (it's really not that bad).

I know you've said in the past that the old Karma is gone for good, but I'm still hopeful that's not true.

I really hope she does. I am so glad there are other people out there who want this, I feel like I've been alone posting it.

Karma needs a revert worse than Kog'maw did. I really don't think she needed an update at all.

murlokingAug 26, 20171 votes

Hello meddler ! I know you already have talked some about the current state of karma but I still struggle to understand her problems. You say here that you think Karma may need an update before nocturne, when i feel that nocturne is much more feast or famine, as with karma she seems quite in a good spot. Could you develop on what are her problems and why she may need it more than nocturne ? Thanks in advance :) and thanks for taking some of your time with us :)

dreadnoughtus01Aug 26, 20175 votes

I'm not Meddler but Karma's not in a good spot. She's at 45% win rate (Azir/Ryze territory) in solo q and her LCS performance post-nerfs have also been bad.

Then you add on the there is further enchanter itemization nerfs ahead, complaints that her kit is too numbers reliant and it's easy to see why they're deciding they need to take a look at her.

Wet DrymanAug 25, 20176 votes

You guys plan anything for Gragas after Worlds? Like for example minor changes to make him an actual AP Fighter he was supposed to be? You did something similar for Rek'Sai that was considered a Vanguard after you guys failed at balancing her as Fighter, why won't you do similar thing to Gragas (who has very similar balance "biography") considering that he needs much less changes to be one than she did?

RiotMeddlerAug 25, 201719 votes

I think we'll want to look at Gragas's E hitbox and, potentially, his ability to use Flash mid E. Those both put a lot of power/focus on his initiation power, and therefore attractiveness as a tank. Would potentially have done that in the last couple of patches, but concluded it was a change that needed to wait until after the Worlds patch.

GrizzlpawAug 26, 20176 votes

Any plans to buff Voli? He's been struggling a lot lately. Righteous Glory keeps him playable in lower divisions but only bearly.

Rathar DashingAug 26, 20173 votes

I only upvoted this because of the pun. I know nothing of Volibear.

KMS BismarckAug 25, 20175 votes

How about nerfing Gragas who is picked like all the time in proplay?

LordRedStone Nr1Aug 25, 20175 votes

What are your thoughts about Ornn? On the Reddit AMA some Rioters confirmed he was on the weak side in their opinion, what would be the right approach to buff him?

Personally his Q feels underwhelming in lane and only usefull to combo with E, maybe give it a bit more damage? Or some base HP and Armour?

However it turns out, I just have one word to describe his charakter: Good.

RiotMeddlerAug 25, 20177 votes

Dude looks weak, trying to figure out how much of that's actual weakness versus learning curve. Assuming he does need buffs also need to get a bit more context on where he does and doesn't need power. Details to follow, possibly later today, possibly early next week. Base stats the most likely buff point if I had to guess.

J EevoAug 25, 20173 votes

Any chance you'll take a look at his power progression in terms of the disparity between levels and items affecting his power? It seems(ironically because he can craft items on the fly) that items don't actually give him all that much. His damage is mostly flat max% or %current hp of his target dealt, with no scaling, the Q deals physical(with a good ratio but being the only ad scaling skill) and the ultimate deals magic with a terrible 20% scaling meaning he lacks the option of effectively building offensively in case he thinks he needs it.

And don't get me wrong, he's actually quite sturdy and hard to kill, but honestly feels more like a support than anything else, except he's clearly not designed to be one considering his unreliable cc and high mana costs when laning(undoubtedly deliberate to force him to recall since he doesn't need to do so otherwise).

Personally I would love to see some ratios on some skills, would love to hear your opinion on that.

KennysDreamGirlAug 25, 201713 votes

i think making the pillar come up quicker would be nice..feels to long to me

Ren ExAug 25, 20176 votes

^ This.

I'm loving how Ornn plays thus far, but the delay before the Q forms makes his reliability go right into the gutter for me. I get that he's supposed to rely on a CC-Heavy team to get of perfect combos, and I like that. It's the same idea behind Yasuo and his ulti. But at least Yasuo can still reliably proc the combo solo, while Ornn is hoping people forget he summons a pillar.

NecrosideAug 25, 20175 votes

A Rioter stated that Veigar Veigar was receiving changes in 7.18.... Was this a lie or whats the proposed stuff coming for our guy? Surely you of all people have seen he's been doing poorly this season ever since the introduction of lethality and you guys buffed EoN.

MessiahNyxAug 25, 20175 votes

What exactly are you looking at with Tristana? I'm nervous that you will hard nerf her then the preseason changes will leave her unplayable. Nerf her itemization or just give her a slap on the wrists

LiteUpSketchersAug 25, 20175 votes

I find the lack of Twitch nerfs... disturbing

Blackspy48Aug 25, 20174 votes

Will you ever revisit mf's attack speed buff or did you drop this idea?

RiotMeddlerAug 25, 20173 votes

No current plans. Might get looked at again someday, wouldn't expect anything for a while at least though.

xX420JannaMainXxAug 25, 20174 votes

If it is confirmed we're looking at Knight's Vow nerfs, is there some sort of plan to re-assess tank support itemization sometime? It really sucks that items intended for supports are being nerfed due to abuse by tops/junglers. It reminds me of the Frost Queen's Claim on mid-laners situation last season.

A full build of tank support items such as item 2303 item 3117 item 3109 item 3190 item 3050 item 3800 already leaves Taric Braum Leona Alistar feeling on-average squishier than a top lane or jungle tank who can afford traditional tank items, so reducing the stats on these items only exacerbates the problem.

Tank supports (with the exception of Ardent/Enchanter Taric) are already having a hard time in solo queue compared to Ardent abusers.

TheHappyReaperzAug 25, 20173 votes

What are the plans for Bandit? Will support items just be buffed, or will there be a rune that does something like it? What about the other champions who take Bandit outside of the support, like GP?

RiotMeddlerAug 25, 20174 votes

Bandit's going away. We're looking at whether to get that then missing gold back to core bandit users or whether to give them power in other regards instead.

NaqelAug 25, 20175 votes

Perhaps it'd be worth investigating something along the lines of a "passive rune" you get by default with certain Rune classes. Inspiration(or whichever the "eco" tree is) could then give a "Bandit equivalent" when chosen as either of the two trees.

Or just make a "gold for nearby minions you didn't kill" a minor rune/core mechanic.