Quick Gameplay Thoughts: November 3

RiotMeddler·Nov 3, 2017·1 votes·38,413 views

Morning folks,

Usual Disclaimers

These posts will often contain talk about future work we're doing, or planning to do, that isn't yet guaranteed to ship. The nature of the work could change or, depending on what we discover, projects mentioned may get put delayed or even stopped. If you'd like to see a Tweet whenever a new one of these posts goes up: https://twitter.com/RiotMeddler

Pre-Season just around the corner

Bit of a quiet before the storm period for us at the moment. We've just recently locked down the final changes of the pre-season patch and are extremely excited to see it go out after working for a long time on Runes. The second half of next week onwards is likely to be really busy again as we make needed adjustments based off how Runes etc are performing, looking forward to talking about our thoughts on that. For now though there's a bit less to discuss so a brief period of comparative quiet.

More Word Clouds

The last set seemed pretty well received with a number of people asking to see some more, so I figured I'd throw some extras in here. As before this is hopefully a mixture of the instantly recognizeable and the harder to immediately identify. Most of these clouds are also a different format to the ones from Wednesday's post. The first one here, and the ones from Wednesday are based off a general survey that asks what players associate with a champion. The other new ones by contrast ask specifically what players feel is iconic about a champ, so they end up with a different feel to them. They're also based off translated data from multiple languages, so there's some non english speaking memeing going on there too (e.g. 'Science'), compared to the previous set that were just based off english survey responses.

https://imgur.com/a/ZC4wB

Urgot

Almost all the champion changes in 7.22 are adjustments due to the impact of the new Runes system. One champ who's getting some other work on top of that though is Urgot. We had some Urgot buffs in 7.21 and, while we liked the direction of them, looks like they went a bit far. We'll probably be increasing the delay on Urgot's Q a bit as a result, making it a bit more dodgeable. It'll still be significantly faster than pre-7.21, but not quite as reliable as at present (currently testing 0.5s -> 0.6s, was 0.85s previously). Urgot might still be too strong after that changes, we'll wait and see where pre-season puts him though before considering raw power, rather than timing, changes though.

What do you want to see more of in these posts?

I figure it's good to ask this every so often, and now's a good time since there's a bit less to discuss today given we've talked so much about pre-season already. So, what would you like to see more of in these posts?

A few notes:

I'm not gonna leak upcoming skins, champions, features etc.
I work with the teams that work on the in game gameplay experiences (champions, items, balance, gold income, the jungle, UI like healthbar etc). The further something is from that the less likely it is I'll be able to answer usefully. I'm not going to be able to respond too effectively for example to discussion around how matchmaking works, what's up with Chat Bans, how you earn Chests/Keys etc.
These posts get written a couple of days in advance so they can get translated into other languages, so anything really recent as a topic will need to get covered in the comments instead (or the next post).

http://ddragon.leagueoflegends.com/cdn/6.24.1/img/champion/Ziggs.png

198 Comments

DarkPh0enixNov 3, 20177 votes

Any updates on the potential Rengar work you mentioned ~3 months ago?

1upzombieNov 3, 20176 votes

Lmao the Ezreal wordcloud has "gay" in decently big font <3

waiting for WoWNov 3, 20175 votes

Any news on possible small scale champion changes following pre season?

RiotMeddlerNov 3, 20174 votes

{quoted}

Any news on possible small scale champion changes following pre season?

Work on them's still all paused. We'll get back them once we've got pre-season stabilized and then share details as soon as they're concrete enough we're confident some form of them will ship.

Blue Moon WolfNov 3, 20172 votes

is there/ will there be a general idea of how many Gameplay Updates will be getting worked on at a time or the intervals in which they are released?

Drunk TsundereNov 3, 20175 votes

What are some specific issues with Swain and Irelia that you're trying to address with their reworks?

RiotMeddlerNov 3, 20174 votes

Irelia - Biggest thing here is huge untapped potential, there's a lot more that could be done with telekinetic blade control. Secondary goals of modernization (she's starting to show her age noticeably), addressing lack of clarity/sometimes fairness around when the stun procs, an ult that's as satisfying as it is strong, more distinction from other similar fighters.

Swain - Less stat checking drain tanking, clearer and more satisfying high moments, clearer thematic (he's pretty scattered at present), modernization again, better recognizing his position in Noxus.

Drunk TsundereNov 3, 20172 votes

I can't wait :D

DolchstoßlegendeNov 3, 20172 votes

Without wanting to sound too mean, can you give a bit of insight into how "untapped potential" and "more satisfying high moments" take rework-priority over extremely problematic kits? It is hard to see legitimation for direct-work postponement spanning over probably years for long-overdue champions like Aatrox or Nunu, mobility-crept champs like Fiddlesticks and the balance-philosophy-wise doomed Shaco just because there are better ideas for approaches on less problematic champions.

Are these concrete ideas really able to shift champion redesign-focus around in such a big fashion?

WiccanBKaplanNov 3, 20176 votes

Quick Little Reminder: Aatrox is currently having work done on him with a full Gameplay update that, while it isn't fully solidified, is being thought about and worked on. With more work coming after Pre-Season is in full motion and balanced (to the best it can be).

I think we have to remember that while Champs like Nunu and Fiddle have not been announced in a "Champion Road Map", they are constantly sitting in Rioter's minds and being thought about while other announced champs are being worked on and then those ideas are being brought up when ideation starts. Remember that ideation is a lot of ideas being thrown out for multiple champs and then when they stumble across a solid idea for a champ that needs work (taken from the list of champs in need of work, NOT JUST ANY CHAMP) they then move on to the actual work.

There is no purposeful neglect or postponing of champions because the want to see Nunu struggle or because they love Irelia more. I would argue there isn't any neglect at all. They just haven't found a solid route they want to take Nunu or Fiddle yet, but have a solid route for Irelia. AGAIN, they are always thinking about where to take champions in a rework.

Would you rather see Fiddle or Nunu (who while struggle, can find success) with broken, in-cohesive kits that disconnect from the champions' identities, don't work, make multiple Aatrox situations, or just SUCK more than they do now? Simply because you want them now, ASAP or you feel they need more work than Irelia or Swain. I would argue that Quality out-weighs Perceived Urgency and that Urgency is a factor that isn't ignored.

rip john shelbyNov 3, 20175 votes

Whats about the upcoming LeBlanc Rework? Is she more an assassine now?

ThornyZyraNov 3, 20174 votes

Any thoughts on Zyra?

VekknaNov 3, 20172 votes

Meddler mentioned a few weeks back that they'll be looking into adding a last-hit interaction to help her in mid lane.

The consensus seems to be that Zyra will be on the list of champs they're watching after the Reforged patch. I'm nervous about that because she (and low play rate champs in general) don't get a lot of attention. It could be weeks or months before she gets buffed after the rune patch.

Mostly, I don't have a lot of confidence about this because Riot doesn't seem to appreciate how much mpen matters to Zyra's power throughout the game. It's not going to be easy to restore her power curve with flat damage buffs, if it's actually possible at all.

My biggest fear is that they take a "wait and see" approach, and 6 months later I'm still here spamming dev threads about Zyra.

DessemNov 3, 20174 votes

So Swain, Yasuo (how the fuck does science go in there?), Anivia, Lux, Draven and Ezreal.

What's the one for Viktor look like? When I think Viktor, I think about his waveclear, but lately there's been numerous champions who can wave clear much sooner and with much less mana costs. Are there any plans to look at old Vik again?

RiotMeddlerNov 3, 201729 votes

Turns out 'Science' is a translation of a Korean meme. As I understand it goes along the lines of 'it's scientifically guaranteed that the Yasuo on your team will be terrible and feed, while the Yasuo on their team will be pentakilling constantly'. Or something like that anyway. Basically the equivalent of the 'Our Shaco/Their Shaco' meme.

1nsan1tyyNov 3, 20174 votes

Will Nautilus be getting buffs or a rework, small or large anytime soon? He is still pretty much the worst performing champ across all 3 of his roles. He is a sub-optimal support now since he lacks any utility. He is poor top due to lack of sustained/%health damage and his clear is weak for a jungler. Earlier in the year Riot stated Nautilus would be buffed and they buffed his Q slightly but it didn't really do anything for him. His theme as a titan fits really well with Juggernauts yet his kit and playstyle do not play like a juggernaut, is this something Riot would explore?

IxtaliKingNov 3, 20173 votes

What do you want to see more of in these posts?

I'd like to see more discussion of things being tested on existing champs (not new champs), even if they aren't likely to go through to live.

It would be nice to hear more about the decision making process with reworks and balance updates i.e what works, what doesn't and why.

PremadeXayahADCNov 3, 20173 votes

why does the swain and irelia update come before Aatrox?

RiotMeddlerNov 3, 20177 votes

{quoted}

why does the swain and irelia update come before Aatrox?

The original attempt at an Aatrox update didn't work out. We put the project on hold for a bit and then restarted with a different team.

World EnderNov 3, 20173 votes

If I may ask, what are some of the issues that made the project fail initially? Was there just not a solid direction? Or was it something more complicated, like realizing that Aatrox's kit has a lot going on and trying to preserve his feel while making him healthy was difficult?

As somebody who mains him I definitely understand how complicated it could be to keep him familiar while also removing a lot of the frustrating elements about him.

NaalithNov 3, 20173 votes

Were all of the Evelynn PBE changes reverted? While I thought that the E AD ratio basically forces Gunblade on her, the ult change with reduced cooldown and re-entering stealth was awesome.

Also I love how Lux's second biggest word is "skin," everybody just associates Lux with Elementalist now same with Udyr's ultimate skin haha.

hollow reiNov 3, 20173 votes

I suspect a part of it is that Udyr and Lux are relatively niche champions in the modern meta, so when you see them, they tend to be diehard one-tricks (like me) who diverted all of their skin money onto buying the ultimate skins.

NaalithNov 3, 20174 votes

Oh for sure. I think it's literally been years since I've seen Udyr's base skin (thank god), like 75% of the time it's Spirit Guard and 25% of the time it's the dressup skin. Your icon is for the best Lux form, btw, I like it.

DarkRitualNov 3, 20172 votes

Mystic Lux, Lulu, Zoe. The fairy dream team.

MorendabanusNov 3, 20173 votes

How do you feel about Rengar's state atm?

AdalvarNov 3, 20173 votes

Now with pre-season almost dropping, what's the next big thing on the horizon? AP item reworks, LeBlanc rework, etc, etc...what can you spoil next?

KillaburnNov 3, 20172 votes

Any news for skins and wards tab? and when will we see the voice chat option? is it in mid season? another is that we need public chat again.

and a personal question, do you like the day and night aesthetic be applied in LOL?? whats your thoughts about it.

RiotMeddlerNov 3, 20177 votes

Skins and Wards tab, Voice chat - Outside of my areas of expertise sorry, those are projects that would be handled by teams I don't work with frequently.

Day/Night - A day/night system could be interesting certainly. If we were adding noticeable amounts of complexity like that to every game though I'd want to consider other options too though (e.g. would a weather system be a better fit for LoL in terms of gameplay it would allow us to offer?)

Solidair3Nov 3, 20177 votes

Yo, weather would be awesome.

FullHam420Nov 4, 20172 votes

So what about the Ryze changes that were supposed to hit live servers before 7.22? We have no info other then things will be changed in his kit and it will be soon. Can we maby get some more insight about the current state of the changes and maby some sneak peeks on whats gonna be changed? Thank you for reading ^^

kepeke1Nov 4, 20172 votes

Hey Meddler! Can you say something about the upcoming LeBlanc rework? Like how is it going and is everything going okay at the testing? And lastly what do you think, when will we see her new rework's release? I'd guess around 8.02 ~ 8.03?

ivoryheraclitusNov 3, 20171 votes

It's a bit hard getting used to Urgot if you keep changing the q Maybe look elsewhere?

RiotMeddlerNov 3, 20177 votes

{quoted}

It's a bit hard getting used to Urgot if you keep changing the q Maybe look elsewhere?

We're pulling back on the Q because we think we went too far in the last patch. We're with you that adapting to different timings repeatedly can be pretty annoying, our thinking was since we're pretty confident it has to change better to do so quickly then leave it consistent (hopefully) for the long term.

LiltyNov 3, 20171 votes

Are the new runes coming on LiveServers next patch ?

RiotMeddlerNov 3, 20174 votes

Yes.

dome025Nov 3, 20171 votes

[deleted]

RiotMeddlerNov 3, 20174 votes

Basically adding an earlier pseudo last hit threshold? Some of the issues I'd expect to run into:

Accidental triggers by other positions (e.g. an ADC trying to push)
Friction between team mates over when to wait, when to AA, whether not a minion has already been half CS'd (could solve with VFX, that does increase visual noise/complexity though)
A negative experience for people drawn to support because they either don't like last hitting, or sometimes want a different play experience
A lower action duo lane because both players on each side now need to spend significant amounts of time CSing (at present supports have a lot of free time to harass/threaten to harass).
Roaming to be much more costly, and done less as a result.

I think it's a cool question, and finding interactive/skill testing ways to give supports income makes a lot of sense, I'd be doubtful about this particular approach though.

dome025Nov 3, 20173 votes

That makes sense. Thanks for your response.

RiotMeddlerNov 3, 20178 votes

[{quoted}](name=Velzard of Koz,realm=EUW,application-id=A7LBtoKc,discussion-id=IE6IXvWM,comment-id=000800000000,timestamp=2017-11-03T16:33:20.158+0000)

That makes sense. Thanks for your response.

Welcome. Any chance you could leave the original question in? Helps people follow the conversation and I'd imagine others might have had similar thoughts :)

dome025Nov 3, 20178 votes

For others who started to read this conversation with my comment already deleted:

I asked about a mechanic (attached to support items) that allows players to earn +x gold from minions, if they drop below 50% through their damage. If the player procs it, he/she won´t be eligible to earn last hit gold (exception relic shield proc). The minion´s healthbar would have an indicator (colors) for the player with the item.

(Sorry, I already deleted it and don´t know if it can be undone.)

RiotMeddlerNov 3, 20173 votes

I'm not sure if there's any way to undelete either.

Thanks for getting that back in!

dome025Nov 3, 20174 votes

By the way will the seraph´s embrace bug get fixed? It´s a visual bug which appeared quite often in the latest patch, where the visual indicators won´t disappear (visible for both teams) for the rest of the match after using it (at least in Aram but what I heard from in SR too).

Others mentioned that Kayle and Steraks have a similar bug, but I can´t confirm it since it didn´t happen to me with them.

RiotMeddlerNov 3, 20173 votes

That Seraph's bug should be fixed in 7.22 (the next patch).

Solidair3Nov 3, 20171 votes

It isn't something y'all can hotfix? I feel like a constant glowing blue barrier is kind of killing readability.

RiotMeddlerNov 4, 20173 votes

Not as easily as something like a spell's damage. We're also close enough to the next patch the value versus cost/risk gets low, especially on a less common item.

Heal and ForgetNov 3, 20171 votes

Do you have any changes in plan for Lux (particularly for her supportive side) during the preseason? I feel like her kit needs work, especially her shield. It is currently difficult to land, despite the potential for the highest base amount shield in the game. (It also has a bug where the first pass of the shield does not combine with the second pass's duration, but I am sure it will be fixed soon!)

P.S., can you tell us why Zoe hates Lux so much?

RiotMeddlerNov 3, 20173 votes

[{quoted}](name=Heal and Forget,realm=NA,application-id=A7LBtoKc,discussion-id=IE6IXvWM,comment-id=000d,timestamp=2017-11-03T16:22:08.196+0000)

P.S., can you tell us why Zoe hates Lux so much?

I can, but won't. I've got a lot of confidence people will figure it out once they hear more of her VO though.

ViatorNov 3, 20171 votes

Hey Meddler! Do you think Azir's nerf hit him too hard? His win rate dropped about 3% after the nerf came in. Also are there any work planned for him for the per season except base stats changes? Thanks!

RiotMeddlerNov 3, 20178 votes

I don't think we hit Azir too hard, dude was really strong, even for only moderately experienced Azir players, after the update. We'll see where he lands post pre-season, but no current planned changes.