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Quick Gameplay Thoughts: December 20

RiotMeddler··1 votes·68,234 views

Hi all,


Usual Disclaimers

These posts will often contain talk about future work we're doing, or planning to do, that isn't yet guaranteed to ship. The nature of the work could change or, depending on what we discover, projects mentioned may get put delayed or even stopped. If you'd like to see a Tweet whenever a new one of these posts goes up: https://twitter.com/RiotMeddler


Evelynn

Wanted to talk about a few champs this time that I've seen a lot of questions about who we haven't talked much about recently. Evelynn's the first of those. She got a full VGU just before pre-season and we had some changes on the PBE for her at one point that mainly got reverted.

At present we think Evelynn's somewhat on the strong side, though not sufficiently so that she needs to be nerfed. A combination of the pre-season changes, and some recent bug fixes, have improved her performance noticeably. She is getting overshadowed in terms of play rate by a lot of other junglers, our suspicion is that she's flying under the radar as a non lethality user there however, and is quite a bit better than she's being given credit for. We'll check in on her again after the break, see where things are at, no changes planned for 8.1 or 8.2 right now though.

At some point if she ends up weak we would want to reassess a couple of the changes for her we pulled from the PBE a while back (Q CD down with less monster refund, R refunding some CD on kill). Still interested in exploring those further. No guarantees they're necessarily the buffs we'd ship if she needed power, and as above we think she's closer to too strong than too weak. They had some promise though so would want to look at them again.


Tryndamere and Yi

Both Trynd and Yi lost some power with the pre-season changes, Trynd more so than Yi. For 7.24b we concluded it was better to put time into a subset of laning fighters (divers generally), working to improve their state, both in terms of kit changes and itemization. We'll be taking a look at Trynd and Yi in 8.2 instead as a result, see if, given the state of the game in January, they need changes, and if so whether that's changes to them specifically or to runes/items they use. No guarantees of anything specific of course, but they're on our list for when we get back.

For anyone wondering the reason I mention 8.2 there, rather than 8.1, is because we're basically out of time on 8.1 work already. We'll get some late changes into when we get back if there's anything really urgent (micropatching a patch just before it goes out basically). Because we have to lock patches down well in advance, and that we put some time into 7.24b, we've got limited ability to do stuff with 8.1.


Heimerdinger

Finally, thought it'd be good to talk about Heimer. We've got a nerf in for Heimer that looks pretty hefty on paper, with his RQ turret's damage dropping from 200-340 (+0.7AP) to 100-180(+0.7AP). It's likely to be pretty hefty in game too, which we feels appropriate given how well Heimer's performing at present, particularly his ability to make it really difficult for many champs to all in him during laning phase.

Worth noting though that this isn't a halving of his R's power. That's a nerf to the beam damage only, so the R turret's regular shots will still do the same amount of damage as at present. The ratio's unchanged too, so damage later in the game will be less affected. While the RQ is generally Heimer's go to choice of upgrade, other R uses are unchanged so situations where those are good won't be impacted either. It's still possible despite those things that this will hit Heimer too hard of course and we'll give him a look after 8.1 goes out, see if he needs adjustment in 8.2.


Last post of the year

We're about to hit the holiday break, so this will be my last of these posts in 2017. I'm planning on starting them up again early January once we're back in the office and have assessed the current state of the game. I hope you've enjoyed reading these posts. I wasn't sure when I started them back in February if they'd work out particularly well. I've felt really good about them personally though as a way talk about a range of things in a pretty casual (and often typo filled!) manner. I've also just really enjoyed doing them as well most days. Looking forward to keeping them rolling next year.

http://ddragon.leagueoflegends.com/cdn/6.24.1/img/champion/Ziggs.png

279 Comments

Spideraxe39 votes

Happy Holidays Meddler, really do appreciate the extra effort you're making with these posts to increase gameplay communication. And look forward to 2018 with Xenogenic, August, CertainlyT and Wrekz's VGUs

RiotZenonTheStoic11 votes

I didn't even have to look at the nick to know this was a Spideraxe post.

Spideraxe4 votes

Was it the knowing of who's working on what or the only person not asking Meddler's opinion on something

Arveanor1 votes

Can I get your opinion on something, Spideraxe?

Spideraxe1 votes

Ok

Arveanor1 votes

I don't really have anything for this, how do you feel about sorcery in dark souls?

Spideraxe2 votes

I think they it's really cool, I find it a unique twist that you can get Sorcery through merchants or as drops, breaks from the traditional norm of level progression unlocking. It having a range utility spells make it rather distinct from just plain offensive or defensive spells

13ooK2 votes

*Happy Christmas

Hnk Kenshiro15 votes

Can item 3092 build with item 3098 + item 1052 + item 1052 ?

item 1026 Is expensive for a support.

Daddy Ants1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Hnk Kenshiro,realm=NA,application-id=A7LBtoKc,discussion-id=FtA613fi,comment-id=001a,timestamp=2017-12-20T17:50:04.115+0000)

Can item 3092 build with item 3098 + item 1052 + item 1052 ?

item 1026 Is expensive for a support.

Eh?

item 1052+ item 1052 is 870 gold.

item 1026 is 850.

???????

Double Amp is more expensive than a single Blasting Wand.

[{quoted}](name=Mastęr Yi,realm=NA,application-id=A7LBtoKc,discussion-id=FtA613fi,comment-id=0044,timestamp=2017-12-20T19:48:05.482+0000)

  • when will new season start? Merry Christmas!

Season 8 will start on January 16.

https://na.leagueoflegends.com/en/page/2017-ranked-season-ends-november-7

Hnk Kenshiro10 votes

You can buy one item 1052 in a back and another in other back.

item 3092 final price would be the same

2Charmnot2Charm3 votes

But then that's less inventory space for control wards.

VorpaltheFox4 votes

at the first levels a support would typically be at, they would have the item 3098, item 3671, maybe some item 2003, a item 2055, and 1 if not 2 item 1052, that'd be 3 slots usable before buying a item 1052, and even if both are bought, there's still room for a item 2055

BigWrig2210 votes

As a Heimer main, I strongly disagree with the incoming nerf. To me, Heimer is only viable by going full damage. If you try to go ap Tammy, he does no damage. His turrets are not that hard to play around in Laning phase, and he is so weak and does no damage without items that he is easy to gank. Nerfing his RQ will make it even harder to play him. I still think he needs a health buff and his w range nerf reverted.

Kaìju23 votes

I got a quadra by running in circles on my second game of Heim in years. If I can get a quadra by doing nothing, there might be a problem because I'm bad as fuck.

Spideraxe4 votes

Me_irl

Capek959 votes

Hello, any chance Lux could get a tiny tweak on her E from 0.6 > 0.65 ap ratio? Just to help her consitently clear those backline minions with 1 E after she reached level 9?

LiteralyPotato2 votes

OMG I hate that so much too. It bugs me soo much when I'm playing Lux and they backline minions survive with a little tiny sliver of health.

Im A Gay Furry7 votes

Is there an update on any Leblanc changes coming soon?

Raxistaicho7 votes

What's the balance team thinking about Ahri these days? The low risk-low reward playstyle arising from her high mobility but low damage (especially for her class) doesn't lead to the most exciting moments for either her or her opponents. Generally I find myself just passively poking and pushing at the enemy until they're low enough that I can all-in them even if I miss a crucial skillshot or two.

Humbreonn7 votes

About Evelynn, when she uses W on someone, the sound of the victim's game goes almost mute and they can only hear Evelynn's voice. Is that supposed to be a feature? I get completly lost in team fights every time a Evelynn W's me due to the lack of sound.

LotusOfTheLight6 votes

Have you got any planned changes to Olaf? You buffed other fighters, but didn't touch him. You were planning buffs but they got reverted.

RiotMeddler12 votes

We'll assess Olaf again in January. As we were investigating possible buffs for him we started to see him do a lot better though as players found ways to be more successful (e.g. use of Sorcery runes) so the buffs looked inappropriate at least right now.

Illâoi Evê Siôn4 votes

But you nerfed Sorcery?

RiotMeddler3 votes

Yep, it was too strong. As above, that's one of the reasons we'll also be reassessing Olaf in January, see what he's using and how he's performing.

Whisper872 votes

Beyond the nerf to Sorcery runes, are there other items on your list for 8.2 that correlate to taking some of the emphasis off of burst damage and snowballing?

It just feels like champions and items built for those things are being overprioritized right now. It could just be because those types of champs are interesting to play and a fun way to try out new runes. I obviously don't have access to performance numbers and other relevant data, so I guess I was just wondering if this style of play is over performing or is just over played from Riot's point of view?

AFilthyCaitMain5 votes

Hey meddler, whats your stance on Caitlyn at the moment?

These indirect buffs dont seem to have helped her much. Do you think she needs a buff?

ThrillØfTheHunt5 votes

Any news about the hinted Rengar changes? What direction is it going to take him, for example, since this will be your last gameplay-thoughts of the year, it'd be nice if we could get some enlightenment on the upcoming changes.

Kei1435 votes

Why haven't you left the office yet for the holidays? Why are you still posting and not taking a break?

Also please tell the behavioral division to do similar posts as these. Maybe just quarterly or annually is fine.

RiotMeddler15 votes

Many of us have left the office at this point, myself included (I'm posting from home).

A lot of Rioters will be working throughout holiday period though as well, particularly folks in areas like network operations and other stuff needed to keep the game running.

Ralanr33 votes

Salutes in honor of those Rioters

GReaper95 votes

Any thoughts on bringing back Deathfire Touch?

Fiddle the books5 votes

Did you have a look at fiddle jungle? He is the lowest winrate jungler since pre season.

tonpole4 votes

Hi Meddler,

Do you think that this Heimerdinger nerf will be enough to get him out of 100% pick/ban status? I would like to see him used in professional play, but at his current win rate of 51% in mid lane and 52% in top lane, he was too strong to make it through an opening ban phase at World's. He was very balanced last year at 44%, but since that time every pro player has become a Heimer one trick. I even heard that the reason Biofrost was kicked from TSM was because he first picked support Heimer in a scrim instead of letting Bjerg or Hauntzer play it.

xMichaelx34 votes

Will there ever be an update to the bots that makes them harder to beat? (in any way)

Will there ever be full bot roster in custom games? (All the bots from coop vs AI).

Why did bots stop using certain summoner spells on SR (TP, Cleanse....)?

Why did Riot decide to make the intermediate bots easier? (Removing the passive gold gain among other things)

TomiMan72 votes

also make them so they use the jungle and dont duo top like wood 5 players

Chawoora4 votes

It is funny how the AI was not updated for reworks. Like since Rammus' Q is now a "channel" he will just sit still and Ryze will just activate his Ult like it is his old one that gives stats. The Bots have zero clue how to fight some champs like Yorick (will just stand in his cage, don't respect his ghouls or ult) and Illaoi (do not respect tentacles, don't respond well to being a vessel). The extra gold the Bots get on TT at least adds in a little bit of challenge. I suspect that updating the AI is pretty complex and time consuming work.

Queen Sèjuani3 votes

Really glad you started doing these updates Meddler. I always get excited when I see a new one, looking forward to more next year.

Daedric Etwahl2 votes

Hey, totally off topic but I think I might have played vs you in a game today, you got fed as Aurelion Sol?

Moonboy653 votes

hey Meddler, how much longer until the MF splashes show up on the PBE?

Dope Solo3 votes

Turrets should get significantly stronger the closer they are located to the nexus.

Tessel83 votes

All I want for Christmas is for Lucian ADC to be viable again..

Happy holidays, Meddler. Can't wait for the first gameplay thoughts of 2018!

Kyunsei2 votes

@Meddler Looking at jungle difficulty in general, doesn't jungle in general became harder to clean ?

I used to take the old mastery that gave you 2 flat damage reduction, shouldn't all monster have -2 base AD as a result ?

RiotMeddler8 votes

We knocked some monster stats down a bit in pre-season to keep the jungle around the same difficulty level. Not looking to make it meaningfully harder or easier to clear than it was this year. So far not seeing any groups of champs fall out of viability because of difficulty clearing. Inclination is as a result that if we do need to make any changes they're more likely to just be to individual champions.

Sinida2 votes

How do you feel about the newly discovered 5 camp level 4 route? One big wolf, one small wolf, blue, gromp, kill last small wolf, chickens, red. This will leave you at level 4 and is similar to the old chicken start level 4 clear which has been destroyed with the exp changes

Sw4de2 votes

fighters and assassins need a counter to armor, LW and black cleaver are both so weak on them, when you can't teamfight a tank and you cant win a 1v1 against a tank you literally have no purpose in the game, there needs to be a viable counter to armor outside of combining crit and LW

Impish Yordle9 votes

Assassins are not supposed to beat tanks in the first place. ADCs and skirmishers are.

waiting for WoW1 votes

Is there any further news on possible rune changes that may or may not be coming up in 8.1 or 8.2 that aren't already on the PBE?

RiotMeddler10 votes

The only things that might be in 8.1 that aren't on PBE already are urgent changes needed once we get back into the office in January.

8.2's still open, don't have anything more concrete than what we've previously talked about for possible Runes changes for it yet though.

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