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Quick Gameplay Thoughts: April 14

RiotMeddler··1 votes·26,805 views

Hi all,

Short post today as mid-season stuff nears PBE. We should have an overview of the mid-season gameplay changes coming out later today, with a bunch of additional details to follow Tuesday next week.


Non mid-season stuff in 7.9

We won't be doing much in the way of regular balance changes in 7.9, given the mid-season changes will shift a lot of balance issues around anyway. We are still putting time where possible into looking at some issues we think we'll want to return to after the mid-season regardless though. Those include an assessment of Gunblade's status, looking at getting Malz back to solo laning effectively and further exploration into possible Heimer changes (small ish in scope, wouldn't want to ship them unless we felt we could give him both better counterplay overall and more power overall).


Unanimous Surrender at 15 minutes

We'll be getting back to looking at/talking about the status of the test in Oceania soon after mid-season. Bunch of thoughts on how it went and what we should or shouldn't do next then.


Rek'Sai

Speaking of post mid-season things we're finally in a place where we've got some of the needed art time to work on Rek'Sai's mini update. Apologies for the delay on this one since we first mentioned it, in retrospect it's a case where we might want to have waited until the schedule was a bit more locked down before talking about its progress.

135 Comments

ZadloBoze2010PL13 votes

@Riot do you have any plans for skarner? I heard he will get a VGU someday, is it still viable? Do you want to make him more a vanguard ( like malphite) or diver ( like warwick) ?

Tormentula1 votes

He really does need help, I hope riot looks into him, he's been in the weakest state since his minirework and the only time he was a spotlight champion, hecarim pretty much still overshadowed him.

ZadloBoze2010PL4 votes

What a shame riot ignored my comment. Meddler created a topic one year ago and was apologizing us for being quite. And now he is still silent.
I have 1.5kk on skarner, so i am really curious about he is current state, because at the moment he is one of the worst champion in the whole game. Im sad, because before the rework he was really funny to play and now he is just a garbage... 335MS is a joke if you compare to his SUPER low damage and high manacosts. And you can say he needs high manacosts, because he has spires. So what's the point of mana in skarner, since he has the spires gives him unlimited mana? I dont get it, mana just makes difficult to play him toplane. I reached D3 or D4 EUW by playing skarner only top and that's annoying when other juggernauts like Darius or Morde, even diver like Riven can oneshot you lvl 6... Skarner is not a junggernaut, at the moment he reminds a vanguard with a syndrome of down, because he is weaker than malphite 1v1. Of course im talking about early game, because after tri he is playable, but what's the point playing him when u have his 2 or 3 better versiors- Hecarim, Vi, Udyr. I soloed as a warwick lee with double buff + gragas, but as a fed skarner i coudln't solo lee without double buff+ blitzcrank in the spire...

WiccanBKaplan1 votes

Honestly you need to relax, Meddler tries to respond at 2 different times almost immediately after the post and later in the day but sometimes he can't come back to the post like he wants to and you never know, it may be answered in an AskRiot post or something else.

ZadloBoze2010PL2 votes

I think you may have misunderstood my comment. I do know very well meddler is only a human and he simply does not have enough time to reply everyone. I admire him for taking care of contact with the community and I know people in riot games works hard everyday to improve league and they are doing their best. But i feel riot hardly never responds on questions about skarner in contrasts to other champions. A lot of people were asking about his state, but probably 95% of them didn't get any answer. I think it's strange, because after these topics; https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/developer-corner/T5MTYIIt-followup-skarner-juggernaut-update https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/dhNEYa7Y-meddler-can-skarner-get-the-kindred-treatment
riot should just call community about his state. We just know he will get a VGU someday and probably champions like Irelia, Mordekaiser, Swain have a higher priority than him.
It's surprising, because these all champs ( maybe except morde) are playable and i think riot should focus on the unplayable/ failure rework champions.

Fenikkuro10 votes

What are your thoughts on the state of the jungle? I feel like this season has been really rough for Junglers. At first we were the strongest role, probably much too strong, and it the role overall was nerfed, but I feel like in the course of a month or so, Junglers went from one of the stronger roles, to almost the weakest, aside from probably supports. It's so ridiculously hard to keep up with XP unless you steal farm from lanes, or find a side lane to farm. Usually I'm the same level as an ADC which seems wrong to me. And before the response is that I'm low elo and no idea what I'm doing, the same is being said by higher elo players who know far more about the game than I do. If at any point in the game you fall behind as a jungler, or your lanes lose and you lose priority in your jungle, you're basically out of the game with the way XP works now.

RiotMeddler6 votes

I believe the jungle's around the right level of impact at present. It's a role with an enormous amount of influence over the early game in particular, with the ability to create uneven fights then better than any other. Equal average XP gains as solo lanes isn't appropriate as a result. It's also a position we've put through more disruption than most, so we'd really like to leave it in a stable place systemically for a while if possible.

Chromatic Eagle7 votes

Aren't there junglers who benefit more from late game rather than early? Wouldn't less xp hurt them?

XIII Vanitas19 votes

I hope you understand that you're solidifying a meta where only early game junglers (like Elise and LeeSin) and supportive junglers (like Nunu and Ivern) can thrive.

Jungle diversity is going to be a thing of the past: mages went into extinction long ago, so I guess that now it's the turn of farming-oriented carries like Shyvana.

ofart4 votes

[{quoted}](name=RUCK FICKY,realm=EUW,application-id=A7LBtoKc,discussion-id=FUeAGTc6,comment-id=000900000002,timestamp=2017-04-14T19:19:06.419+0000)

I hope you understand that you're solidifying a meta where only early game junglers (like Elise and LeeSin) and supportive junglers (like Nunu and Ivern) can thrive.

Jungle diversity is going to be a thing of the past: mages went into extinction long ago, so I guess that now it's the turn of farming-oriented carries like Shyvana.

I kind of agree with that. XP and camp respawn nerfs make only one style viable and that involves a lot of early pressure. Strategically pathing correctly to maximize farm and counter-jungling at the opportune time when the enemy jungler is ganking etc. is no longer a good trade off. You have much less freedom to express a particular jungling style or fine-tune strategy. The true rank 1 player last season explains the problem with JG here. He was unfairly removed from the ranking lists for toxicity/boosting.

Why do I say unfairly? It's true he didn't deserve a Challenger Jacket or a chance to got to the scouting competition because he broke some non-gameplay related rules but he DID earn rank 1. Pretending he didn't because he was a jerk etc. is a lie and a political move. You can choose to not reward him but don't falsify reality to meet your beliefs. For example, if a runner beat the world's fastest time for X on his own and without any doping, you can't say "Oh but he calls everyone else mean names and is an asshole with cooky opinions so we'll pretend he didn't beat the world record." Not liking someone or not choosing to reward a certain type of behavior is fine but lying about said person's performance is a low blow and very unfair.

TheSingularity5 votes

The current jungle has obliterated tank viability. Rammus and zac are the only tanks who can complete a clear with enough health to gank without hitting scuttle crab for hp.

Last season EVERYONE COULD JUNGLE!!! This season if you're not a diver, skirmisher or assassin. Then you're not welcome in the jungle, at least that's how it feels.

So allow me to lend you some advice concerning only leaving the jungle alone for "a while". Stop changing the jungle evey year. Pros figure out the optimal jungle route within a week and then we simply copy them. The so called "stale" jungle was only "stale" to you, because people had figured out your system and you were sick of seeing little variance in clears. The changes you implimented to insert depth on clear paths, haven't changed anything for better, only worse. No one cares if magic damage is better against blue. If they want mana, cdr and not to be half hp after a buff camp then they'll start blue every time.

The end of season 5 and most of season 6 was paradise for us. We could pick anything and make it work. We weren't gated by our cleer speeds, whether we ganked or farmed nor were our champs forced out of the meta.

The jungle is anything but being "around the right level". It's a hell hole optimised for champions with the best clears.

Malicious Metal7 votes

I sure hope you'd rather take a look at the abuse cases of Gunblade (Leblanc) rather than to nerf it once more for the intended users like Mordekaiser, Jax and Akali.

Maybe take a look at hos her Q shatter orb works with the spellvamp?

AgeOfTheMage6 votes

What are your guys's thoughts on kindred? do you have any plans for them?

RiotMeddler8 votes

At some point post mid-season we still want to do some work on their scaling.

DCYOUNG8882 votes

Scaling as in adding crit into her kit?

Sahn Uzal4 votes

I read ''No mid-season stuff in 7.9'' instead of ''Non mid-season stuff in 7.9''

Fuck me, got scared there for a second...

HalcyonDweller3 votes

I noticed that some people are worried Gunblade will get nerfed because of abuse cases such as LeBlanc, what are your thoughts on that?

LostFr0st1 votes

Leblanc item 3146 item 3100 item 3135 is pretty silly, but that doesn't mean gunblade itself isn't overtuned since (according to the cost analysis) the item is apparently 121.03% gold efficient without its active and the rest of its passive.

LaughingStapler2 votes

{quoted}

Leblanc item 3146 item 3100 item 3135 is pretty silly, but that doesn't mean gunblade itself isn't overtuned since (according to the cost analysis) the item is apparently 121.03% gold efficient without its active and the rest of its passive.

It has to be that way though because hybrid champions don't have the same ratios for a single type of scaling and also don't have the same efficiency from multipliers (Rabadon's).

RiotMeddler4 votes

Not sure yet, that's why it's on our list of things we need to assess now so later we can make better changes if needed. Its effectiveness certainly varies a lot champ to champ, it does also just have a lot of raw stats for its cost though.

Malicious Metal5 votes

I always thought it was justified for 3400 gold. These big ticket items always feel good to build though.

Anyways, if the changes to Rylais taught me anything it's not to jump the gun here.

XIII Vanitas2 votes

Wait, do you think Rylai is still good?

Malicious Metal5 votes

It's still doing the job it's supposed to be doing.

Gunblade on the other hand is a big ticket damage item for Hybrid champions that's supposed to have these big, juicy numbers.

Adalvar1 votes

I think that the this goes to show that some AP items item 3146 item 3285 and now item 3100 are a tad too homogeneous in their capabilities. When characters like Ahri and Leblanc, who have no AA modifiers, still make use of Lich Bane, or when Luden's Echo, which should primarily be a siege based item, was being used universally, maybe it goes to show that AP item passives should be made into more situational cases overall

Akaliholic1 votes

Tbh, Gunblade should be made 50/50 AP/AD rather than skewed toward AP the way it is now. And then characters like Akali and Teemo who normally build pure AP after Gunblade should be changed so that they can viably choose to supplement it with additional AD purchases the way Jax and Kayle can. (Though I can't really see Akali ever building the kind of AD items that Jax and Kayle like; BoRK, Guinsoo's, etc, it'd be cool if raw AD was viable on her, like Maw or Bloodthirster)

Kaori2 votes

If you will end up nerfing Gunblade, i hope you give Akali compensation buffs again. She is already weak, if you nerf her core item then..

Michael Sykes2 votes

{quoted}

Not sure yet, that's why it's on our list of things we need to assess now so later we can make better changes if needed. Its effectiveness certainly varies a lot champ to champ, it does also just have a lot of raw stats for its cost though.

You mentioned before the LeBlanc Nerfs that you want to investigate her kit again for changes that would make her more playable (and without abusing of unusual items). What's the state about that?

Qiyana is SO HOT2 votes

I hope you guys do not plan on nerfing Gunblade without some heavy compensation to Akali It has been her core item for years and hasnt been a problem until recently with Ahri and Leblanc abusing it. It would be a travesty to butcher her by nerfing her core item when shes not in the best of spots as is. Gunblade is the only thing thats even making her playable at this point.

MunchCrunchLunch3 votes

what about ahri meddler?

DCYOUNG8883 votes

Any changes or buffs planned for LeBlanc?

EDIT: What kind of changes are you planning to give Malzahar in order to make him an effective solo laner again?

ofart3 votes

I hope you find some time for FIddlesticks too. He's one of the few champions with TOO MUCH counterplay since he exists just for his ult. and there are many ways to deal with that via wards/displacement/dashes etc. The fact that it has a channel time and can be interrupted makes it even harder vs good teams. This is more about a rework than a particular buff but he also suffers from very inefficient and mana intensive farming which is itself an equally big problem at all levels.

I'm always in awe when I see his ~50% winrate because he seems so helpless when behind at all and just very underwhelming in general. If behind, the enemy team gets vision control and you have very few good ult. opportunities. Even entering the JG is liable to getting you 1-shot because you have no escape and are very squishy. I'm guessing Fiddlesticks mains are just gods at him because I have 50+ games on him with a 45% winrate. If I don't snowball it early, I lack impact and get level 6 by 9 minutes when laning's almost over.

Skyroar3 votes

Malzahar suggestions:

  1. As in the previous thread, I suggested a minion/ monster only buff to his E - Malefic Visions skill (x% more damage, or HP scaling so it doesn't sucks against super minions or baron-buffed minions).
  2. Have his E skill cost more mana, but also return more mana on kill (something that was more prominient with old Malz). This will will make Malz players rely more on E spreading to achieve their full combo, while supp Malzahars will have massive mana problems. (Note: this change would suck if E's damage isn't buffed in someway).
Lebłanc Bot3 votes

What are your thoughts on Leblanc? Possible buffs nerfs or a revert? How do you like Leblanc now using gunblade lich bane as her best build ?

patmax172 votes

Context on randuin/thornmail changes from a few days ago?

RiotMeddler8 votes

Both Thornmail and Randuin's have been somewhat problematic historically, particularly given the expectations some people have of Thornmail ('I buy it and auto attackers just lose'). We were exploring a combination of the two to see if doing so could resolve issues on both sides. Some promise there, though came too late in mid-season's development to be appropriate to try and ship in mid-season itself. Might come back some day.

AMYS GRAVE4 votes

its not that auto attackers should just lose, its that they can lifesteal away any effect it has...

Kiraid Lciem9 votes

Could you test Thornmail applying Greavous wounds for X seconds, with a doubled effect when attacking you? This would make it feel like a tank anti-lifesteal item.

Aimléss3 votes

So you want thornmail to lose the only counter-play it has? Think about this from an ADC's perspective. If you buy thornmail, they'll have to buy LW and Vampire sceptor to counter it, trading gold for gold. But you'd rather have it so they have no real option to counter it, and just have to suffer throughout the game killing themselves for doing their job?

AMYS GRAVE3 votes

That wouldn't be removing its counterplay, it would be giving it play at all. Also because it reflects magic damage it can be countered by MR.

Sexy Jack Rabbit3 votes

What about making the damage apply over time?

IxtaliKing2 votes

It's good to know Malz will be going back to solo laning, but what about the other mages who have fallen out of mid? Brand Karma Zyra

kristiyan212 votes

Brand is fine and Karma is support not midlaner :D

Northmund2 votes

Ivern is support but he is played jungle.Why would you assume that karma is support only?

Excalibait1 votes

This probably doesnt fit in here as it's not a gameplay related question but now that Karma's splash update is out, do you know / can you tell us which champ is next in line for splash updates?

RiotMeddler8 votes

From memory we're doing splash updates for some of Sejuani and Maokai's splashes, with some of them at least coming in mid-season.

Chromatic Eagle1 votes

Are all class updated champions receiving a splash update?

YourSh4dow2 votes

no just those 2. since they got VU long time ago but not updated splashes for skins.

Xenos von Faneli1 votes

Wait so Rek'Sai's update is gonna include a visual change? Or when you say art do you mean artists to help you render new abilities and such? Also please don't take my farm alarm.

Atanchan1 votes

Probably stuff like new particles and maybe new animations.

RiotMeddler3 votes

Correct. Nothing too major, but enough we can't just have designers make adjustments to the existing assets.

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