Quick Gameplay Thoughts: September 12

RiotMeddler·Sep 12, 2017·1 votes·47,612 views

Hi folks,

Usual Disclaimers

These posts will often contain talk about future work we're doing, or planning to do, that isn't yet guaranteed to ship. The nature of the work could change or, depending on what we discover, projects mentioned may get put delayed or even stopped. If you'd like to see a Tweet whenever a new one of these posts goes up: https://twitter.com/RiotMeddler

Frost Queen's line in 7.18

We've got some late changes for the Frost Queen's line right at the end of the 7.18 cycle I though it would be good to give some more context on. We want to put a bit of power into the FQ's line of items, given they're underperforming relative to Coin/Targon's even on aggressive champs who should be much more drawn to FQs. We also want to offer non direct damage power where possible, both to reduce creep on number of high threat damage dealers on a team and to allow differences in how champs play in different positions (mid versus support for a number of mages). That meant adding AP or additional proc damage was something we wanted to try and avoid. CDR's is somewhat better approach as a result, focusing champs more on frequent casts (more sustained damage, more utility uptime). There are some cases where that contributes to CDR glut on some champs, most of the core FQ's users however are often buying non CDR items regardless however (e.g. Rylai's and/or Liandries).

We added CDR to T1, T2 and T3 of the Frost Queen's line as a result. We then started running seeing some mid laners swapping to it. Flexibility of item use across positions isn't in and of itself a problem, in this case it looked like it was at risk of making some champs (e.g. Cass) potentially too dominant. We made some late changes to FQ's as a result, uping the CD on minion kills by a couple of seconds and changing it so it gets extra CDR at T2 (now 10%), but doesn't increase further at T3. Intent there is that it's a better choice for supports building it and then going for other items, without pushing it to T3, without being too warping if picked up by others. Making it a support item that you're happier leaving at T2 also then gives a bit of extra distinction versus Targon's/Coin potentially too.

Brand

We mentioned we'd take another look at something small to help solo lane Brand out a bit sometime post Worlds patch. Still planning to do that, potentially in this next cycle. Something small's likely to mean something like a small bonus (e.g. mana restored) when CSing with particular spells to give us a lever to put power into non support Brand specifically when needed. Give him some better harass and wave clear if he's CSing well basically. Not expecting that'll solve everything Brand needs, but would like to get something quick for him before pre-season if possible.

Thinking about another prototypes blog

Last year we put up a blog that showed prototype versions of various champions:

http://nexus.leagueoflegends.com/2016/10/dev-on-champion-prototypes/

I was thinking it would be good to do another one of those, look at some of the champions that have come and since and maybe a couple of older ones we didn't get to cover last time. Would be interested in people's thoughts on which champs you'd be particularly interested in seeing. One disclaimer though - it'll likely only be covering champs released from around Gnar onwards (getting access to prototype files older than that's a more difficult process alas, easy to get old patch versions, harder to get old WIP stuff).

In terms of timing on that dev blog it'd likely be a late this year or early next year thing once pre-season work's settled down. Takes a while to get everything in order though, hence the inquiry now.

256 Comments

warpenguin555Sep 12, 201711 votes

Idk if you're the right person to ask this, but what happened to the Ghostcrawler AMA's and the new champion/vgu podcasts? I really liked those

RiotMeddlerSep 12, 20174 votes

Not certain sorry. I think the people we had organizing the podcasts/some of the streams moved elsewhere in the company or something similar, agree it's a shame those aren't happening.

VekknaSep 12, 201710 votes

{quoted}

We added CDR to T1, T2 and T3 of the Frost Queen's line as a result. We then started running seeing some mid laners swapping to it. Flexibility of item use across positions isn't in and of itself a problem, in this case it looked like it was at risk of making some champs (e.g. Cass) potentially too dominant. We made some late changes to FQ's as a result, uping the CD on minion kills by a couple of seconds and changing it so it gets extra CDR at T2 (now 10%), but doesn't increase further at T3. Intent there is that it's a better choice for supports building it and then going for other items, without pushing it to T3, without being too warping if picked up by others. Making it a support item that you're happier leaving at T2 also then gives a bit of extra distinction versus Targon's/Coin potentially too.

Wait...so FQC and EotW do not have 20% CDR now? So with FQC you have 20% CDR in the build path and then lose 10% CDR when finishing the final item?

If you're worried about midlaners abusing FQC, why not do the obvious thing:

Keep minion-kill penalty on tier 3 item
Keep FQC at 10% CDR and let EotW have the buff to 20% CDR

You guys were really close to fixing a frustrating problem with Frost-line supports, and it's super disappointing to see you back away from a positive change because of hypothetical problems with mid lane. I was seriously looking forward to this change, because it's extremely difficult to itemize for CDR when 0 of your core damage items have CDR.

item 3151 item 3116 item 3285 item 3020 item 3135

The problem here is a full build with 10% CDR, which is an extension of the problem of extremely narrow spell pen itemization. This problem wouldn't exist if we had AP versions of the lethality options. Either way, 10% on a component doesn't actually help because it fails to address the problem of builds capped at 10% CDR.

Brand

We mentioned we'd take another look at something small to help solo lane Brand out a bit sometime post Worlds patch. Still planning to do that, potentially in this next cycle. Something small's likely to mean something like a small bonus (e.g. mana restored) when CSing with particular spells to give us a lever to put power into non support Brand specifically when needed. Give him some better harass and wave clear if he's CSing well basically. Not expecting that'll solve everything Brand needs, but would like to get something quick for him before pre-season if possible.

And Zyra? You helped Malz back to mid. You're helping Brand back to mid. Any plan to make good on any of the year-old promises to help Zyra back to mid? She's hot garbage in the Ardent meta, so now's a good time to help her without breaking her in bot lane.

RiotMeddlerSep 12, 20178 votes

With this approach Frostfang would have 10% CDR. Frost Queen's build path would then have a Blasting Rod instead of Fiendish Codex, so you'd still have 10% CDR at T3 as well.

Not sure on Zyra. Might be able to get her back to mid to the degree she was played/effective there before the update, would still expect that to leave her significantly better as a support given even on release I'd argue that's where her kit was strongest.

Dog of PavlovSep 12, 20175 votes

I'm honestly so confused. There was such an easy way to fix mid laners abusing the 20% CDR by keeping it in EotW and keeping 10% for FQQ. This was going to be a great buff but now there's essentially no solution to the issue of most damage supports not getting the CDR unless they go down the ardent line... which doesn't make sense for damage supports for obvious reasons.

What's the reason for not having 20% CDR in EotW? Or am I missing something? The person who made this post above laid it out pretty well^.

VekknaSep 12, 201711 votes

If FQC abuse is the problem, can we please leave the 20% CDR on Eye? That was such a massive QoL improvement for mage supports.

Thanks for the reply on Zyra. It seems like you're unaware that Riot committed to balancing her for mid. Once and for all, can you acknowledge these quotes and let us know whether we should expect them to be honored?

{quoted}

She gets played both lanes successfully and will continue to--we're committed to keeping her strong in both lanes.

{quoted}

Our plan was to make her viable mid and balance around support, so we wouldn't be happy if she was a weak midlaner.

{quoted}

Yep! We want her to be viable in both roles.

{quoted}

Going forward, we’re putting her in more midlane tests and making sure we don’t leave a lane behind.

LankPantsSep 12, 20176 votes

Not sure on Zyra. Might be able to get her back to mid to the degree she was played/effective there before the update, would still expect that to leave her significantly better as a support given even on release I'd argue that's where her kit was strongest.

The problem here is that the whole rework was a giant middle finger to mid Zyra. The only thing she gained of any value was 15 MS. Everything else about it hurt her in some way. Q's hit box is terrible and does less damage than pre rework, plants lost HP early and now die even easier to ambient AoE, you're more reliant on large swarms of plants which is just less feasible in the midlane and finally the bot brushes serve as a buffer to your RNG seed gen since if you stand in a brush you only place seeds within that brush.

I also think that many of these are issues that should be addressed anyway. The high number/low value plants are far worse to play both with and against than Zyra's old plants. As a Zyra player they just feel too vulnerable to going down to AoE, especially mid and against Zyra it feels horrible to get 2 seeds RNGed on your head into 4 plants ripping you apart. Also why was Zyra's passive ever allowed to exist? It turns her whole character into an RNG fest where you're basically praying for seeds to land on the enemy.

Finally no-one's arguing for straight Zyra buffs that will just break Zyra support, end up with nerfs and put us right back where we started. What we want is targeted buffs to Zyra mid alongside compensation nerfs to Zyra support where they make sense so Zyra mid is a viable pick. It's also not good enough to get Zyra back to where she was before the rework, the goal for Zyra should be to make her a completely viable midlaner alongside support if possible and if not listen to the community and relegate Zyra support to being more of an off-pick while Zyra mid gets primary balance focus.

ColdChromeSep 12, 20171 votes

[deleted]

LankPantsSep 12, 20177 votes

And as for the votes, the community voted that way but let's guess: Most of the community plays support way more than mid,

If you stop and think about this for even 15 seconds you'd understand why Zyra being played more bot means shitall.

Zyra mid is trash. Playing Zyra mid is basically equivalent to throwing the game away, as such people don't play Zyra mid at all. Zyra support is much less bad.

https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/developer-corner/xVQr7ihf-mid-year-mage-updates-zyra-direction

If you look here you'll see a trend, people who want to play Zyra mid but don't because it's shit.

Perhaps a better way of looking at this is that ~10% of Zyra players play Zyra mid in spite of it being complete trash. That's a far higher percentage than say, Sona mid at about 2% of Sona players despite Sona mid performing statistically far better than Zyra mid. This is probably the most fatal argument to "but Zyra's played more bot".

VekknaSep 12, 20171 votes

The Q cost reduction, flat cost of Q, and base mana regen buffs were very helpful, since none of Zyra's core items have any mana or regen on them. Otherwise, great post. It's also worth adding that all of the post-rework nerfs also hit mid harder than support.

Balancing for both really is not hard to do. Tie passive spawn cooldown to W rank, and suddenly support Zyra has to rank W earlier. That opens a lot of room for buffs to spell damage/ratios, and suddenly Zyra has a reason to go mid for the gold and xp.

LankPantsSep 12, 20173 votes

Balancing for both really is not hard to do. Tie passive spawn cooldown to W rank, and suddenly support Zyra has to rank W earlier. That opens a lot of room for buffs to spell damage/ratios, and suddenly Zyra has a reason to go mid for the gold and xp.

I've always preferred the approach of just beating it over the head with numbers until it works TBH.

The reason for this is that with a few reasonable assumptions we can prove that there is a numerical point of balance

Zyra mid typically gains more value from ratios than support, if we give Zyra an absurd AP ratio like 10:1 she'll probably never be played support and only see play mid to abuse said ratio
Zyra support typically gains more from bases than ratios, if we removed all Zyra's ratios and buffed her bases she'd probably be even more cemented as a support
These two things are linear, buffing ratios benefits both, as do bases but if we were to buff ratios and nerf bases in a way that's power neutral we'll always benefit Zyra mid and harm Zyra support and vies versa.

With those 3 assumptions we've already proved that there's not only a single point of numerical balance, but an entire line of points where Zyra would be equally as good mid as support. Some of these points will be blatantly broken, some will be weak but theoretically there should be a point of balance somewhere on that line.

I'm not convinced that Zyra support would rank W even if seed spawns were tied to it TBH. They effectively were pre rework and pre rework Zyra support never even looked at her W, so I don't think this would work past it being a ratio buff for Zyra mid, which is a more indirect way of just buffing ratios nerfing bases, which is what I'm arguing for anyway.

The Q cost reduction, flat cost of Q, and base mana regen buffs were very helpful, since none of Zyra's core items have any mana or regen on them.

Zyra mid's most common first buy is Morello's anyway. With some AP ratio buffs I'm 100% sure that Morello's would be a core item for her, as it stands it's already very good because it's hard to pass up a quick 20% CDR on a utility mage.

EROTIC RAID BOSSSep 12, 20172 votes

Why is that anyway? What about her kit makes her more of a sup?

AbyssphereSep 12, 20172 votes

It's complicated but basically she lacks agency and safety in lane, but doesn't have the required strengths outside of lane to make up for that. She's safer and exerts more control in the bot lane. In addition, in the mid lane her ideal role would be a DPS control mage with her plants but her AP ratio on plants is godawful - as such, she fulfills that role basically just as well from a support's budget as she does from a mid laner's budget, and you're better off with a mid laner who actually needs the gold they're getting.

Making Zyra mid work would take somewhat significant work but they could at the very least do what they did with Vel'Koz and improve her scaling with gold to be worthwhile. I can't think of a worse AP ratio on a mage than her plants.

LankPantsSep 12, 20173 votes

but because her AP ratio on plants is godawful

You just outlined the problem and the solution instantly. It flaws me that Riot's struggled so much with this when it's so obvious.

I can't think of a worse AP ratio on a mage than her plants.

That's because there isn't one. It takes Zyra 760 AP to double the damage on her plants. I'm recalling from memory here, so I'll probably be slightly off but I believe it takes Janna about 540 AP to double the damage on her W. Zyra's plant scaling is an utter joke.

VekknaSep 12, 20173 votes

Her plant AP scaling is trash, but the base damage scaling with level is really quite strong. If she gets an xp advantage in mid, she can totally decimate in mid-game.

Personally, I think her biggest issue in mid is that her combo is gated by seeds, which are on a 24-second cooldown or RNG. No other mid-laner has a cooldown that long on a basic ability required for a kill combo, and it's not really possible to get a kill using just EQR without a gargantuan level and gold advantage.

AbyssphereSep 12, 20174 votes

Please do something for mid lane Zyra. Every other APC who ended up bot lane has been given changes to make them work mid at this stage and as a Zyra player it is so frustrating to watch you fix everyone except Zyra over time. It would be so easy to at least throw mid Zyra a bone but you do nothing even though there were so many people before the rework expressing their wish for Zyra mid to be a thing and promises that she'd be balanced for both roles.

QuešSep 12, 20178 votes

Meddler some thoughts on Urgot .

Is he ok now or still needs buffs ?

RiotMeddlerSep 12, 20174 votes

Seems ok, will reassess along with everyone else after pre-season hits.

AirKingNeoSep 12, 20173 votes

He lacks utility and is auto crippled by Bramble Vest more than any other champion.

Not sure how that is considered fine right now, especially with how powercreeped the rest of the meta is above him.

iVeshaSep 12, 20176 votes

We was get the part of Urgot new splash art , before he hitted PBE . Can we now get part of the Evelynn new splash art , eg her hair , or something ? Evelynn Evelynn Evelynn Evelynn Evelynn Evelynn Evelynn

TormentulaSep 12, 20172 votes

We got a leg

https://images.dotesports.com/thumbor/N-XAqjf3is1s4YNYLw89QHDqZmQ=/1200x0/filters:no_upscale()/https://dm6jf9380nk1h.cloudfront.net/article/01c56b49-90e2-4578-8b35-3d47b606296b.gif

iVeshaSep 12, 20171 votes

ITS NOT SPLASH ART !

TormentulaSep 12, 20176 votes

OK FINE HERE'S YOUR SPLASH ART, THE FULL ART:

http://i.imgur.com/La7sokU.jpg

Glory to GodSep 12, 20173 votes

Jesus Christ dude keep this game family-friendly

Void NargacugaSep 12, 20176 votes

What are your thoughts on item 3252 ? Was it much of a success or more of a flop?

RiotMeddlerSep 12, 20174 votes

It's pretty non existent. I think we could probably get it some use by putting more power into the counter jungling reward, would probably want to do more work on counter jungling, and responses to it, in general. Looking at XP gain in the jungle's the first priority though, so that's what we're currently looking at.

LeyinSep 12, 20175 votes

thanks for doing a new prototype blog ^-^

pzTeeksSep 12, 20174 votes

Hello and thank you for your regular updates Meddler.

I read in the last week or two that you had Caitlyn changes planned for the 7.19 cycle though there were no details at the time. Any updates?

Thank you.

RiotMeddlerSep 12, 20175 votes

Stuff's being worked on, though it's still being iterated on, so nothing final. Possible changes include giving her some Attack Speed back, trap duration down at early ranks/possibly down a bit even when maxed, lower base HP, Q damage falloff reverted.

CàneSep 12, 20173 votes

Are you going to nerf Maokai and Sejuani or will you wait to see what impac the new runes will have on them?

RiotMeddlerSep 12, 20176 votes

Like most champs they'll likely sit as they are until new Runes and the rest of pre-season hit.

Malicious MetalSep 12, 20171 votes

When is Preseason going to hit if you don't mind me asking?

Around 7.20?

RiotMeddlerSep 12, 20173 votes

7.22 is the plan, so should be early ish in November.

patmax17Sep 12, 20173 votes

Do you use prototype champs when you are developing a VGU (e.g. Galio)?

RiotMeddlerSep 12, 20175 votes

VGU's have so far all used the old character model (really easy to tell who it's meant to be that way!). We do then prototype spell effects etc. I'll do some digging at some point, see if any of the old VGU kits have interesting stuff to look at that didn't make it onto the final kits or were prototyped in an interesting way.

WrongNeekoSep 12, 20173 votes

Evelynn Patch 7.19 or 7.20? pls say 7.19

KillaburnSep 12, 20171 votes

please 7.19. hours left before pbe so plz riot.

RiotMeddlerSep 12, 20176 votes

No Evelynn in 7.19.

NecrosideSep 12, 20173 votes

Veigar changes weren't in the 3 Week PBE cycle... will it be in this one? Veigar

RiotMeddlerSep 12, 20177 votes

Yes.

Sinful SorcererSep 12, 20173 votes

Thank you! <3 item 3070 Veigar

LostFr0stSep 12, 20173 votes

Any chance of improving the passive's clarity? Most people still don't realize just hitting champs gives him AP.

(getting pretty tired of reminding my allies of this in ARAM tbh...)

WráthfulSep 12, 20172 votes

are we going to have worlds pick'em this year????

RiotMeddlerSep 12, 20174 votes

Hope so, I thought it was good fun last year. That's something the Esports folks would need to answer though (I talk with them about gameplay, balance etc but I'm often not familiar with the status of features like that).