Quick Gameplay Thoughts: March 23

RiotMeddler·3/23/2018, 4:04:50 PM·1 votes·53,789 views

Hey all,

Usual Disclaimers

These posts will often contain talk about future work we're doing, or planning to do, that isn't yet guaranteed to ship. The nature of the work could change or, depending on what we discover, projects mentioned may get put delayed or even stopped. If you'd like to see a Tweet whenever a new one of these posts goes up: https://twitter.com/RiotMeddler

Attack Move Changes on PBE

We're testing out some tweaks to how attack move works when you're using the attack closest to cursor setting (the default). Core of those changes is that we're increasing the distance around the cursor where targets will be checked for substantially before the game then checks for targets near your champion instead (500, instead of 250). There are also some secondary tweaks to how in-range targets will/won't be prioritized over out of range targets (avoiding mention of the details here to see what does or doesn’t get noticed on the PBE). We've been testing those adjustments internally for a while, and playtesters haven't been reporting noticeable differences. That's mainly a good sign (suggests things are just working well behind the scenes). Thoughts from anyone playing on PBE also much appreciated over the next week or so. Changes seem to be working overall, but want to double check that and if nothing else see if there's room for further polish.


Balancing some champs for organized teams

We've had long running difficulties with some champs who perform dramatically better for organized teams (pro teams, premade 5s, Clash soon etc) than they do for matchmade solo queue teams. Azir, Kalista and Ryze are the strongest example of that, where their performance for the average player trying them will often look pretty weak if they're in a balanced state for organized teams. One of our goals with champion balance is to ensure they're good choices in a wide range of contexts, so that's not ideal. At the same time though they're still situationally very strong even in solo queue sometimes.

We've also put a lot of time into trying to close that gap on those three over the years, with mixed success, given some parts of those champions core identities are tied to the very elements that give them that variance in power by context. For a while, quite possibly a long while at that, we're going to be prioritizing most other champion work over closing that gap as a result. That means Azir, Kalista and Ryze will be balanced for their strong cases (organized play primarily), even if that leaves them quite weak in other contexts (exception: a bit of Ryze work that's already underway and might or might not ship). It's not that we think that's the perfect solution, but that we think the time's better spent on other champions who haven't got that same degree of attention over the years and would benefit a lot from it.

If you're someone who likes those champs, but feels you shouldn't play them in solo queue, our apologies. I expect that feels pretty rough and that even if these champs are strong in the right circumstances that doesn't help if those circumstances aren't ones you personally experience. Completely agree there are downsides to this approach, we do think it's the best available trade off for LoL players as a whole though.


Midseason

A few more midseason bits and pieces worth mentioning:

  • We've been testing various jungle power level changes and recently concluded that we were better off putting them in midseason, both to take more time to get them right and since they're the sort of wider systemic change that's often better bundled into midseasons or preseasons, especially as we get to the otherwise lower change parts of the year.
  • It's likely we do some set up changes for midseason in 8.8 to help validate that they do what we think they do before we pair other changes with them. In particular we're looking at mage mana pools and regen in the first few levels, and how much we might need to increase their early ability to cast more spells to make them better duo laners. That’ll look like changes to base mana and regen, probably paired with a nerf to Doran’s Ring. Nothing too major by itself, but useful to understand what impact it has while we’re still working on other stuff.

http://ddragon.leagueoflegends.com/cdn/6.24.1/img/champion/Ziggs.png

276 Comments

VaVahik3/23/2018, 6:52:27 PM40 votes

Can you share few words on the state ofKatarina Katarina? First Rengar and Leblanc get reverts that shorten their kill times, now you release Irelia that feels like she will become my new main instead of Kat and this makes my heart split in half item 3073 item 3073

I will just post something I discussed with BelugaWhale during Thunderdome:

Her win rate dropped to about just 50% right now (And under 50% for any ELO range excluding dia+), while her play rate dropped by at least 2.5 times. Many Kat mains are frustrated about lack of success with her after 8.4, and usually with such play drop rate, her winrate should at least decrease just a litle/even increase , as FOTM players drop her and higher proportion of Kat players are her OTPs.


Rengar and LeBlanc got their reverts and we are jelly. Not that we want old kat back (I don't), but we would love some QoL smoother gameplay. Of course, that pair had it most bad after assassin rework. However, once Kat got nerfed and the extra unneeded damage was stripped off her, her design problems became more apparent.


We don't think damage is the problem, kat had just superfluous damage ever since preseason 8 gave her domination tree that synergizes perfectly and is pretty flexible within, and we can run any of the 4 secondary trees depending on tastes. We knew she had to be nerfed damage-wise , and we love the ability to adapt that new runes give. It's just reliability/smoothness issues that make Kat feels less enjoyable, regardless of her performance (which we ignored so far , because well, she was OP)


Our main problem is dagger falling speed. Since Kat's E Shunpo CD got up, she is more about timing it right in the early game and that's fine, but come lategame, every time you jump on a Tristana/Vayne/Taliyah/Janna etc, you get pushed back and killed before you can even pick the W dagger unless you manage to miraculously predict their skills and Q>E>flash in a direction that makes you fly into your Q dagger.


You talked internally about dropping the dagger fall time. Is there any chance you guys talk it back again? Even Faker tried kat in 8.5 and currently he sits at a low win rate. Many Asian Kat OTPs outright stopped playing for a while or reduced the amount of games they play.


The change BelugaWhale suggested was to reduce her dagger drop times at levels 6,11 and 16 quite significantly, in exchange demanding to hit two daggers to perform an ult-less kill. She is a Draven of mid lane, and his axes fall distances scale with his MS to account for that. Why can't ours get a similar QoL change?


Suggestion: drop the scaling down to 0.55 / 0.60 / 0.65 / 0.7 AP and 0.85 AD, and lower the drop time from flat 1.25 seconds to 1.25 / 1.10 / 0.95 / 0.8 seconds.


Since majority of supports/adc defensive options work instantly, this shouldn't be a problem and will keep Katarina's fluid feel from her midgame to lategame, where she still keeps dancing to get multiple daggers off , rather than fishing for unaware enemies or rely on her team's CC to even be able to damage anyone. This feels bad for both Kat players and those unlucky souls that step on a dagger once she gets a few items.

Please Make Katarina Great Again! [katarina-love]

Frozen Diva3/23/2018, 4:12:01 PM19 votes

So... is there a timeframe for Lissandra now...? Yes I am annoying. But that's like the fourth iteration of Ahri changes on the PBE right now and still no news about Liss.

Thighonia3/23/2018, 4:35:02 PM13 votes

Was wondering if you had thoughts about gunblade. It is an item that seems to suffer from some of the same thing that made you change rageblade and nerf duskblade. Too powerful a spike at first item, Feels like you are playing gunblade rather than the champion. It's users also seem to be very feast or famine in solo queue so i was wondering how healthy you think it is.

Spideraxe3/23/2018, 4:08:40 PM9 votes

Hey Meddler can we get some context behind the rune changes on the PBE, since the Sudden Impact one seems very drastic at 25 seconds

Wukong Airlines3/23/2018, 7:18:52 PM9 votes

Hey Meddler. When will MonkeyKing be seriously addressed and get his kit reworks?

Why was he a prime candidate in the Diver's rework then canceled then was never prioritized?

Are you waiting for Wukong to reach a certain point in order to give him a gameplay update?

PowerOfDrainAge3/23/2018, 4:25:27 PM7 votes

Any thoughts on Ashe? i believe she could use some love.

Solari Fortune3/23/2018, 4:13:12 PM6 votes

Any news on the ADC work that was talked about?

Erdamon3/23/2018, 4:14:54 PM5 votes

Hello, are there any other Rumble changes currently in testing to go alongside the Q buff? Or maybe we'll see a different iteration in the following days? While I do like the current direction that the buffs are taking I still think that they could be refined a bit better and I'd like to know what's your and the whole team's take on that

iPooUnicorns3/23/2018, 5:29:57 PM5 votes

Any thoughts on the state of item 1402/ item 1414 ?

To me, it feels kind of lackluster aside from the Echo proc, most notably the stats it gives. This might be part of the reason AP junglers that aren't Evelynn Nidalee feel like they're in a really bad spot.

Seeing as how item 3285 was changed to give CDR instead of movement speed, maybe Runic Echoes could get the same treatment?

Lesba Zyra3/23/2018, 11:57:41 PM5 votes

@Meddler How about to fix Zyra already? Did you notice that her mid/late game died quickly? And you know what's a problem? Your new 'USEFULL' (kappa) liandry. I know it sounds a little bit rude, but the new liandry is trash tier for Zyra's build now. The old liandry was perfect for Zyra, because of its early magic pene to keep early dmg and for midgame/late there was a dot for poke. Yes. The new mask has 50% less dps as a poke machine. It's usefull only for dot users and Zyra has NO dots at all. Oh yeah, we've got plants. The plants that are one-shotted by everything.

Also you've said that you wanna keep her also as a midlane champ. So why don't you buff her over that way? just buffing her midlane style? is that so hard to give her scale over creeps? I know she's got extra seeds. That is not enough, since plants are useless in mid/late game.

And I am not even joking. I had 100 lp master and more. 62% winrate. Anyway once your patch of the liandry came out, my winrate immediately dropped down and I've been stuck in D3 now. I can't build the liandry anymore. Yeah. I've been trying thousands of builds, like nashoor, wit's end Zyra .etc Everything feels so useless vs HP targets and mobility and you know. Almost against everything.

btw. I play only MID Zyra from Season 3 till now. And I've never submitted to play supp Zyra, since I think that's heresy. And you, riot company, promised to keep her 2nd role as a mage, as a midlaner. Even her release was about midlane and you know that.

DeathBurst3/23/2018, 5:02:13 PM4 votes

Re: potential nerfs to Doran Ring.

Have you considered the side effect on AP Tanks that sometimes take Doran Ring Top? Thinking of Cho, Mao, Naut, etc.

Chazual Fridays3/23/2018, 4:23:11 PM4 votes

Hey, Meddler! Been a lurker for a while and just wanted to say I super appreciate these Quick Gameplay Thoughts.

I understand with regard to your point about Azir/Kalista/Ryze that the idea is to leave these champs as is in their weak-in-regular-play/strong-in-pro-play states to allocate resources toward other champions?

Also, how do you decide which champs to give some love to? Ahri in particular struck me as an odd (but not unwelcome) choice.

Cheers and thanks, -Chaz

nuletic3/23/2018, 6:58:00 PM4 votes

What you guys should understand is that the average SQ player doesn't have time to master dozens of champions. Thus, situational picks won't work out as well as comfort picks. That's why really niche champions will not be played much in SQ unless actually OP (or perhaps with a duo to abuse a particular combo/strategy). The roster of this game is already enormous and even just understanding who you're facing is daunting for new players. Generalist champions will always rule SQ because they allow the greatest leverage of champion mastery/time investment.

As far as balance, I would hope that all champions are balanced objectively based on the highest level of play in pro and SQ. That's true balance. Hand holding low tier players isn't sustainable and nor is it real balance. The problem with balancing for all levels is that 1. it's rarely the champion holding back someone in Silver anyway 2. not having true balance around optimal play will greatly narrow the viable champion pool in high ELO/competitive while also making it impractical for someone to stick to the same champions when climbing.

BTW: These voice chat changes seem to have made duos a bit stronger. I hope the MMR adjustment is reflected. Although, I'm glad there isn't voice chat outside of parties. There are countless reasons for this but mainly, I think it would force others to use it in order to remain competitive. People would certainly use pings less if it existed. Muting others' voice would just cut you off much more from team information. It would also be a larger barrier to entry for people who don't speak English well.

Jenks33/23/2018, 4:31:33 PM3 votes

@Meddler

Good morning Meddler!

Any thoughts on how you think the Lee Sin LeeSin buffs will land? The Reddit and general forum talk I hear is that they will help, but he has lost a lot of utility over the years due to his mobility with wards, so it's difficult to go back to the older, season 1 and 2 style due to the missing utility.

A lot of folks are asking for some kind of "Stick" item that will give him some hopping ability without granting vision. Is that something you might look at?

Thanks again!

Wolfearent3/23/2018, 4:19:51 PM3 votes

I recall around the time of Varus’ lore update that he may get a new VO? Is that still a thing/with the release of the MF skin are we getting a new VO for her base?

FoxMulder73/24/2018, 12:35:15 AM3 votes

Are you guys planning on buffing or changing something with Syndra? She's so bad right now, 47% win rate and all the pros stopped playing her almost entirely.

DeadlyyKiss3/23/2018, 4:59:07 PM3 votes

Hi Meddler, with all the recent changes on the pbe, we all feel that assassins will get definitely weaker, especially Kat' who's gonna get really affected by the nerf of sudden impact and the new locket. First of all, I wanted to know the context behind these changes and if you guys are going to plan anything for certain assassins if these changes hit them too hard ?

wobaji3/25/2018, 7:43:55 PM2 votes

{quoted}


Balancing some champs for organized teams

We've had long running difficulties with some champs who perform dramatically better for organized teams (pro teams, premade 5s, Clash soon etc) than they do for matchmade solo queue teams. Azir, Kalista and Ryze are the strongest example of that, where their performance for the average player trying them will often look pretty weak if they're in a balanced state for organized teams. One of our goals with champion balance is to ensure they're good choices in a wide range of contexts, so that's not ideal. At the same time

http://ddragon.leagueoflegends.com/cdn/6.24.1/img/champion/Ziggs.png

Have you guys considered reverting the Corki AD nerf? He's really not performing well and in fact his late game - the reason he's picked - is sub 48% winrate.

aQuixoticKiller3/24/2018, 2:31:39 AM2 votes

What about kassadin getting a little bit of compensation from the minon aggro change? Ahri who is and has been doing far better than him is getting mad love, a host of ad champs got love for duskblade nerfs, and still nothing. You guys even passed him over for a other champs for skins on release of his daughter and no audio rework to acknowledge her at all. When I kassadin gonna get anything?

ClonieMor3/23/2018, 4:21:21 PM2 votes

Hey, Meddler!

Any thoughts about improving Lethal Tempo?

What about its effect be continuously active while in combat (after the 1.5s timer, with or without the AS cap), and then enter in CD when you are out of combat? Any other possible ideas?

TomiMan73/23/2018, 4:13:18 PM2 votes

Hey

I know its kinda off topic but will you guys change how single target skill shot works? I've heard that the end of these skills shots(blitz Q for example) there is a target finder, a circle if you will, so even if you would have missed the hook, it will jump to a target close by and hit them, even if they would have dodget it. This is very annoying, and promotes bad and skilless gameplay, and me and i'm sure a lot of us would be happy it that would be removed, or tweaked(but mainly removed) Thoughts?

Micbran3/23/2018, 4:09:27 PM1 votes

If it’s not so tentative that you have no idea what you’ll do midseason, what have you tested in terms of jungle power changes? And which ones do you think will make it in some form to the actual jungle changes?