Quick Gameplay Thoughts: January 31

RiotMeddler·1/31/2018, 4:38:26 PM·1 votes·43,346 views

Hey all,


Usual Disclaimers

These posts will often contain talk about future work we're doing, or planning to do, that isn't yet guaranteed to ship. The nature of the work could change or, depending on what we discover, projects mentioned may get put delayed or even stopped. If you'd like to see a Tweet whenever a new one of these posts goes up: https://twitter.com/RiotMeddler


Why open up bot lane?

As mentioned last week we're looking to open up bot lane to other classes beyond marksmen. Seen quite a lot of discussion about that, ranging from people really excited to play other stuff bot to players who think it's a terrible idea. Figured we should share some more of our rationale as a result.

What we're trying to do:

  • We want to make it so other classes can be played bot IF you want to.

  • We don't want to push marksmen out of bot lane. They'll still be great choices there and, if you want to play nothing but marksmen in bot, that should be a fine choice. This is not about forcing people who want to play marksmen only to play other classes, but allowing people who want to play other things to do so. Can understand the concern about being pushed out of the only position some champions can play and that's not our goal.

  • We want to open bot up to a range of classes, not just marksmen and one other one. That'll be a gradual process though. Most likely outcome is that mid-season opens the position up somewhat (mages most likely). Later work then opens it up more, based in part off learnings from mid-season.

Why we think we should do it:

  • We think LoL is a more enjoyable and interesting game when you can play a wider range of team comps and get a range of different laning experiences. A lot of players gravitate towards trying new stuff, experimenting with what does and doesn't work.

  • Bot is currently much more limited in terms of what works there than other positions. We'd like to open it up as a result to players who want to go bot but don't like Marksmen and players who like marksmen but would also like to play some other class(es). That's been a frequent request from many players for quite a long time.


Azir

We've (probably) got a late nerf going into 8.3 for Azir, targeting his waveclear/AOE. Plan is to reduce his damage on secondary AA targets, hitting both his laning power (ability to push/counterpush and roam) and ability to stall out sieges late game.


Kalista

By contrast we're pulling Kalista's changes from 8.3. We're looking to reduce her power in pro, with low impact in regular play. Reducing auto attack range, potentially with compensatory buffs elsewhere, looks like it might be a good lever there, given pro duo lanes are often more sensitive to differences in AA range. We're not confident enough the changes we've been testing are right though. We'll be taking a look at Kalista again during 8.4 development as a result, both the AA range reduction and other alternative approaches.


Non LoL: Sid Meier on games as a series of decisions

Summary below of a GDC talk by Sid Meier (creator of the Civilization series and a lot of other things).Well worth a read if design theory's your sort of thing. The opening section on what an interesting decision is is stuff that might be pretty familiar (talked about fairly widely). Later sections get into things like the value of informed choice and the use of historical context as an intuitive foundation though.

https://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/164869/GDC_2012_Sid_Meier_on_how_to_see_games_as_sets_of_interesting_decisions.php

http://ddragon.leagueoflegends.com/cdn/6.24.1/img/champion/Ziggs.png

289 Comments

Wukong Airlines1/31/2018, 7:18:08 PM27 votes

What you've done in the Roadmap is unfair. You kept adjusting, semi-reworking Aatrox and give him a lot of attention but ended up giving him the first spot in the Rework progression. Akali deserves a rework, but still at least was worked on in the last couple of years.

So my question is, what makes you make such decisions? Why you never answer anything related to MonkeyKing ? Why wasn't he prioritized since he's one of the oldest champs in the game? and why can't you give him anything to put him in a better spot?

This is really, really frustrating.

SB Arneeman1/31/2018, 6:04:37 PM15 votes

Here are my thoughts as an Azir and Viktor player.

Azir

The Azir nerf is too harsh. He already has a 47,5% winrate in platinum+ soloq. This change will completely ruin his waveclear, make his poke weaker early, and reduce his teamfight effectiveness all at once. This will easily reduce his winrate to 45% or even lower - bringing him back to pre-rework state unless you abuse Nunu synergy...

By nerfing his AOE you are forcing him into a single target DPS role, and ruining the reward for hitting multiple people which is easy for the enemy to counterplay. After hitting a good R, which should be rewarding, you will have much lower followup damage too.

With this kind of nerf you are ruining him for soloq.

Viktor

I'm pretty dissappointed with the Viktor buff. You are fixing none of his main problems - hexcore cost, delay on abilities and lack of range. First off facetanking damage is not what you want to do as VIktor. When playing a fight well, you kite around and dodge skillshots with the Q movespeed. You combo the frontline, or go for oneshotting one or more backliner. The Q shield would be most useful in lane while trading, but with the 2250 gold required to obtain it you've already got to a point where there isn't much trading midlane. The ult cooldown will be barely noticeable since you already go a CDR build, and don't rely on ult for picks like many other midlaners.

Remember that you've made a lot of indirect nerfs to Viktor: Gutting Rylais, nerfing Ghost, and changing runes so he now has no good keystone.

Viktor has been completely missing in all tier lists for a long time now. I'm going to test various builds to see if I can make him viable with the buffs, but I honestly doubt he'll be any good with the current changelist.

Even though AzuBK has been communicating with us Viktor players over at the subreddit, I feel like you are listening to nothing of what we say.

Flutterrs1/31/2018, 5:06:21 PM9 votes

Hey Meddler! Hope you’re doing well.

I’m a big fan of Zoe, though I know a lot of people (very vocally) dislike her. I’ve played her a ton, with almost 200k mastery points on her. However, unlike a lot of Zoe players, I prefer to take her botlane as a support instead of mid. Being able to snag summoners/items in lane and in fights later can be hugely impactful and fun, and the extra HP from the upgraded warding item (formerly Sightstone) helps with that. Plus you can set up picks with long-range bubbles, place wards/get vision control using your ult, and lots of other cool stuff that I can’t get from playing Soraka or any other traditional support.

However, I’ve seen a lot of people calling for big nerfs to Zoe, and the recent LCK oneshot only fanned the flames. There’s been a fair amount of balance changes proposed, but I wanted to add my voice as someone with a ton of experience on the “off-role” of Zoe support. She seems a little strong for sure, though recent nerfs definitely added more counterplay (QQR was pretty insane in its initial form). With that in mind, I’ve got a couple questions (if you have the time to answer):

What does the balance team think of the Aspect of Twilight’s current state? When balancing champs like her, do you consider these sorts of “off-roles” or is the focus solely on mid lane?

(For the record, I think shifting power from her Q to her E would be an option to nerf mid Zoe without killing off her support version. But I trust your judgment, whatever changes you may or may not ship.)

Thanks for the frequent gameplay thoughts posts, always a treat to read!

Sun Wu Ryuumoku1/31/2018, 4:46:34 PM9 votes

ctrl + f : top lane result : 0/0

ok...

ctrl + f : Wukong result : 0/0

yeah ofc

The KoolAidMan11/31/2018, 6:31:31 PM8 votes

Can you please expand/provide more insight into the items below? Even insider stuff that this is being discussed a lot and personal thoughts are welcome.

  1. Top Lane game impact - very low to nonexistent currently.

  2. Bruisers - currently no keystones, Laning phase very short (almost nonexistent), lack of items, too easy to counter (bramble vest), item cost are very very high.

  3. Top lane Gameplay experience - in general it just not a fun experience. Tanks have more impact, completely safe laning phase, better keystones (all the advantages). Even if I do win lane it feels like it doesn’t matter.

I’ve read Meddlers post last week several times (I appreciate you taking the time on that) and in general I’m still confused on riots stance. You provided a bunch of counter arguments and data (note very tailored data to your stance lol), admitted there are some issues with the role, said your working on the mythical bruiser keystone, and hyped up that the auto target spells pull minion agro would help. All of the nerfs changes to aftershock, grasp, augment have either not been enough to help bruisers and ultimately benefit tanks even more.

I’m just looking for honesty here because it feels like this is a big issue and the only changes being made/tested are very very underhanded and don’t seem to help bruisers.

Hashinshin gets to emotional and complainy, but he isn’t entirely wrong and it does feel like this issue is being swept under the rug.

Gitarin1/31/2018, 4:42:30 PM8 votes

Any context to the viktor buff reverts?

Pokemonred2001/31/2018, 5:16:43 PM7 votes

Actually, one last question. When opening up Botlane, how do you think this will effect synergies between supports (especially enchanters) and non-marksmen?

item 3504 Janna Lulu Nami for example, all boost AD champs more than they'd boost AP ones with their sterioids they give to other champions (Ardent Censer and Lulu giving Attack Speed, Janna giving AD, Nami giving bonus damage on basic attacks)

I would genuinely enjoy seeing mages (especially Ziggs and Cassiopeia) botlane, but at the same time, I'm not sure how well enchanters would have synergy with them when their ally-targeted damage boosts seem to be more helpful toward basic attackers, like marksmen and skirmishers (Fiora, Yasuo, Master Yi, and Tryndamere). Would there be direct changes to them (a-la Nunu; I'd not like this given how that seemed to be such a massive shove in the direction of 'busted'), or do you think Mages would likely see play with different types of supports, such as a second mage (Brand/Cass sounds like hell, actually) or a CC tank (such as Alistar or Leona to make landing spell combos easier, while making it hard to get to you). I'm exited to see what you come up with in any case, but support synergies is what I've currently realized might become an interesting point to think about.

Kreien1/31/2018, 4:51:59 PM7 votes

The nerf to Azir seems a tad on the extreme end. It seems more like you will do anything to get him out of proplay because you are destroying his core gameplay. Azir is known for his aoe damage. Taking away Azir's aoe is like taking away yasuo's double crit chance.

If your willing to take away azir's aoe this easy then why is it so hard to give zoe a decent nerf?

Also, I don't know if it is just me but I think that nerf for Azir may just push him back into a nerfed to the ground state?

ZaNJeTsU1/31/2018, 4:46:35 PM6 votes

What happened to the top lane talk you said before, and when will you start working on it?

AjXtar1/31/2018, 5:28:12 PM6 votes

Seriously, why are you all so obsessed with bot lane. Supports and ADC got the best of all and you are still obsessed and making those roles even better while top lane is still in a bad spot that you don't even try to save it or at least have a better explanation on how would you do that and saying "new rune in the works" is not really something that I accept when you created a meta that poke wins over any other type of champion in the top lane.

Poke is the arch enemy of top lane and you don't even care about that anymore. At least in the past years you accepted that fact and tried to make changes accordingly, but now you don't care. Why? What has changed?

Artemia1/31/2018, 5:47:10 PM6 votes

Hi Meddler, I'd like to hear your thoughts on potential changes for Ahri W that will (hopefully) happen down the line.

I'm also interested in your opinion on Syndra's current state. As far as I know, there are no plans to make changes to her, despite her 46% winrate. Could this be related to the AP itemization changes down the line? I do understand that the champion can be very problematic if she ends up being very strong (especially since PowerOfEvil is having some success with her in competitive right now).

Sir Nope1/31/2018, 4:47:04 PM5 votes

Opening up bot lane? Does that mean Mordekaiser’s gonna be revisited soon(tm)?

Also, I have to know: What was the reasoning behind giving Nunu the AP %boost on his W?

EDIT: Beyond just opening him up to AP champs, I mean. Why not a flat number? And why 40%/+105 at Rank 5?

Zoli Ben1/31/2018, 4:41:44 PM4 votes

Roadmap when? item 3070

Holgranth1/31/2018, 4:59:23 PM4 votes

Hey Meddler I saw on the new "Gameplay Goals" video that you are trying to make Champions viable in multiple roles again. Any chance that Jungle Nautilus will be looked at? I feel very strongly that he could be made viable and balanced by adding bonus damage to monsters to his w or e without giving him too much power as a support or top laner. I bought Nautilus in 2012 to play as a jungler. I am very disappointed that Riot has let this play style get destroyed. Why don't you give struggling junglers bonus damage vs monsters more often? I feel like its a good solution to prevent them from having too much damage vs other champions or pushing power in lane.

I freely admit I'm bias and have a huge emotional connection to Jungle Naut because I met my wife to be playing Nautilus, our plan is to have Nautilus and Nami on top of our wedding cake.

Slachhh1/31/2018, 6:15:24 PM4 votes

Thoughts on Kindred?

Pokemonred2001/31/2018, 5:05:38 PM4 votes

Two main questions here:

Any update on the replacements to Frost Queen's Claim/Talisman of Ascension? (And maybe Face of the Mountain?) My support-oriented self is really missing the two items.

Secondly, will item 1039's mana regeneration ever function while present in the river?

Seviel Vorose1/31/2018, 5:31:26 PM4 votes

Hi Meddler! Anything planned for Syndra yet? She's a bit the weak side right now, with a low winrate even though only mains are playing her.

Kyunsei1/31/2018, 5:05:58 PM4 votes

Any context on the Tryndamere Q up revert ?

Felt like too much or simply looking to up/change other aspect of his kit ?

CyberBalt1/31/2018, 5:20:53 PM3 votes

After bot lane has been opened up, would you guys look into also letting marksmen start in other lanes? I don't play adc but that's a concern I saw some of those players have -- having their lane opened up to other classes, while they themselves are still locked in bot lane.

Illâoi Evê Siôn1/31/2018, 5:16:45 PM2 votes

Any plans for Jungle Fiddlesticks?

CyberBalt1/31/2018, 5:27:24 PM1 votes

Could we get some context on the spellbook nerf?