Quick Gameplay Thoughts: January 31

RiotMeddler·Jan 31, 2018·1 votes·43,346 views

Hey all,

Usual Disclaimers

These posts will often contain talk about future work we're doing, or planning to do, that isn't yet guaranteed to ship. The nature of the work could change or, depending on what we discover, projects mentioned may get put delayed or even stopped. If you'd like to see a Tweet whenever a new one of these posts goes up: https://twitter.com/RiotMeddler

Why open up bot lane?

As mentioned last week we're looking to open up bot lane to other classes beyond marksmen. Seen quite a lot of discussion about that, ranging from people really excited to play other stuff bot to players who think it's a terrible idea. Figured we should share some more of our rationale as a result.

What we're trying to do:

We want to make it so other classes can be played bot IF you want to.
We don't want to push marksmen out of bot lane. They'll still be great choices there and, if you want to play nothing but marksmen in bot, that should be a fine choice. This is not about forcing people who want to play marksmen only to play other classes, but allowing people who want to play other things to do so. Can understand the concern about being pushed out of the only position some champions can play and that's not our goal.
We want to open bot up to a range of classes, not just marksmen and one other one. That'll be a gradual process though. Most likely outcome is that mid-season opens the position up somewhat (mages most likely). Later work then opens it up more, based in part off learnings from mid-season.

Why we think we should do it:

We think LoL is a more enjoyable and interesting game when you can play a wider range of team comps and get a range of different laning experiences. A lot of players gravitate towards trying new stuff, experimenting with what does and doesn't work.
Bot is currently much more limited in terms of what works there than other positions. We'd like to open it up as a result to players who want to go bot but don't like Marksmen and players who like marksmen but would also like to play some other class(es). That's been a frequent request from many players for quite a long time.

Azir

We've (probably) got a late nerf going into 8.3 for Azir, targeting his waveclear/AOE. Plan is to reduce his damage on secondary AA targets, hitting both his laning power (ability to push/counterpush and roam) and ability to stall out sieges late game.

Kalista

By contrast we're pulling Kalista's changes from 8.3. We're looking to reduce her power in pro, with low impact in regular play. Reducing auto attack range, potentially with compensatory buffs elsewhere, looks like it might be a good lever there, given pro duo lanes are often more sensitive to differences in AA range. We're not confident enough the changes we've been testing are right though. We'll be taking a look at Kalista again during 8.4 development as a result, both the AA range reduction and other alternative approaches.

Non LoL: Sid Meier on games as a series of decisions

Summary below of a GDC talk by Sid Meier (creator of the Civilization series and a lot of other things).Well worth a read if design theory's your sort of thing. The opening section on what an interesting decision is is stuff that might be pretty familiar (talked about fairly widely). Later sections get into things like the value of informed choice and the use of historical context as an intuitive foundation though.

https://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/164869/GDC_2012_Sid_Meier_on_how_to_see_games_as_sets_of_interesting_decisions.php

http://ddragon.leagueoflegends.com/cdn/6.24.1/img/champion/Ziggs.png

289 Comments

Wukong AirlinesJan 31, 201827 votes

What you've done in the Roadmap is unfair. You kept adjusting, semi-reworking Aatrox and give him a lot of attention but ended up giving him the first spot in the Rework progression. Akali deserves a rework, but still at least was worked on in the last couple of years.

So my question is, what makes you make such decisions? Why you never answer anything related to MonkeyKing ? Why wasn't he prioritized since he's one of the oldest champs in the game? and why can't you give him anything to put him in a better spot?

This is really, really frustrating.

abdollah56273Jan 31, 20183 votes

I feel you

SB ArneemanJan 31, 201815 votes

Here are my thoughts as an Azir and Viktor player.

Azir

The Azir nerf is too harsh. He already has a 47,5% winrate in platinum+ soloq. This change will completely ruin his waveclear, make his poke weaker early, and reduce his teamfight effectiveness all at once. This will easily reduce his winrate to 45% or even lower - bringing him back to pre-rework state unless you abuse Nunu synergy...

By nerfing his AOE you are forcing him into a single target DPS role, and ruining the reward for hitting multiple people which is easy for the enemy to counterplay. After hitting a good R, which should be rewarding, you will have much lower followup damage too.

With this kind of nerf you are ruining him for soloq.

Viktor

I'm pretty dissappointed with the Viktor buff. You are fixing none of his main problems - hexcore cost, delay on abilities and lack of range. First off facetanking damage is not what you want to do as VIktor. When playing a fight well, you kite around and dodge skillshots with the Q movespeed. You combo the frontline, or go for oneshotting one or more backliner. The Q shield would be most useful in lane while trading, but with the 2250 gold required to obtain it you've already got to a point where there isn't much trading midlane. The ult cooldown will be barely noticeable since you already go a CDR build, and don't rely on ult for picks like many other midlaners.

Remember that you've made a lot of indirect nerfs to Viktor: Gutting Rylais, nerfing Ghost, and changing runes so he now has no good keystone.

Viktor has been completely missing in all tier lists for a long time now. I'm going to test various builds to see if I can make him viable with the buffs, but I honestly doubt he'll be any good with the current changelist.

Even though AzuBK has been communicating with us Viktor players over at the subreddit, I feel like you are listening to nothing of what we say.

Sun Wu RyuumokuJan 31, 20189 votes

ctrl + f : top lane result : 0/0

ok...

ctrl + f : Wukong result : 0/0

yeah ofc

FlutterrsJan 31, 20189 votes

Hey Meddler! Hope you’re doing well.

I’m a big fan of Zoe, though I know a lot of people (very vocally) dislike her. I’ve played her a ton, with almost 200k mastery points on her. However, unlike a lot of Zoe players, I prefer to take her botlane as a support instead of mid. Being able to snag summoners/items in lane and in fights later can be hugely impactful and fun, and the extra HP from the upgraded warding item (formerly Sightstone) helps with that. Plus you can set up picks with long-range bubbles, place wards/get vision control using your ult, and lots of other cool stuff that I can’t get from playing Soraka or any other traditional support.

However, I’ve seen a lot of people calling for big nerfs to Zoe, and the recent LCK oneshot only fanned the flames. There’s been a fair amount of balance changes proposed, but I wanted to add my voice as someone with a ton of experience on the “off-role” of Zoe support. She seems a little strong for sure, though recent nerfs definitely added more counterplay (QQR was pretty insane in its initial form). With that in mind, I’ve got a couple questions (if you have the time to answer):

What does the balance team think of the Aspect of Twilight’s current state? When balancing champs like her, do you consider these sorts of “off-roles” or is the focus solely on mid lane?

(For the record, I think shifting power from her Q to her E would be an option to nerf mid Zoe without killing off her support version. But I trust your judgment, whatever changes you may or may not ship.)

Thanks for the frequent gameplay thoughts posts, always a treat to read!

RiotMeddlerJan 31, 20185 votes

I'm good thanks!

Zoe wise she's a topic of a fair bit of debate internally. Let me get back to you this Friday with a more in depth answer, rather than just giving you my current thinking.

In terms of balancing 'off-roles' we want to try and support those more. First priority though is to make sure a champion isn't out of line in their most common position(s). Once they're fairly stable there considering off roles is more feasible.

CleverCactusJan 31, 20185 votes

Please consider first fixing how her abilities have exceptions to the way other champions abilities work. Her Q can be recast while stunned, her E cannot be fully cleansed before the sleep, and yet spellshields before the sleep does not block it.

GitarinJan 31, 20188 votes

Any context to the viktor buff reverts?

RiotMeddlerJan 31, 201810 votes

Concern we were buffing Viktor more than intended. Ult CD probably doesn't do that much, went meant pulling the Q augment shield buff or the E CD. We've think Viktor should be a bit tankier than he is later in the game, given his combat ranges do require him to get closer than many mages, so the shield buff was the change we have the higher confidence in.

If the Q and ult buffs don't move him enough we'd consider the E buff again for 8.4.

GitarinJan 31, 20184 votes

Do you think you'll do anything to Viktor's Hexcore during the ap item update? Or is it not relevant to those changes.

RiotMeddlerJan 31, 20186 votes

No plans to change it as part of the AP item adjustments no. Still hoping to have those in 8.4.

KrozoidJan 31, 20186 votes

Honestly his hexcore could use some tweaking, if both Laners back with 1250 - 1500 gold Viktor can only get mk1 and maybe pots while the other Laners can get lost chapter boots and another item and have more sustain in lane

The KoolAidMan1Jan 31, 20188 votes

Can you please expand/provide more insight into the items below? Even insider stuff that this is being discussed a lot and personal thoughts are welcome.

Top Lane game impact - very low to nonexistent currently.
Bruisers - currently no keystones, Laning phase very short (almost nonexistent), lack of items, too easy to counter (bramble vest), item cost are very very high.
Top lane Gameplay experience - in general it just not a fun experience. Tanks have more impact, completely safe laning phase, better keystones (all the advantages). Even if I do win lane it feels like it doesn’t matter.

I’ve read Meddlers post last week several times (I appreciate you taking the time on that) and in general I’m still confused on riots stance. You provided a bunch of counter arguments and data (note very tailored data to your stance lol), admitted there are some issues with the role, said your working on the mythical bruiser keystone, and hyped up that the auto target spells pull minion agro would help. All of the nerfs changes to aftershock, grasp, augment have either not been enough to help bruisers and ultimately benefit tanks even more.

I’m just looking for honesty here because it feels like this is a big issue and the only changes being made/tested are very very underhanded and don’t seem to help bruisers.

Hashinshin gets to emotional and complainy, but he isn’t entirely wrong and it does feel like this issue is being swept under the rug.

FlemmanJan 31, 20182 votes

the problem with sustain bruiser tho is that, if you remove bramble from the equation, that's them who have little counter play

KreienJan 31, 20187 votes

The nerf to Azir seems a tad on the extreme end. It seems more like you will do anything to get him out of proplay because you are destroying his core gameplay. Azir is known for his aoe damage. Taking away Azir's aoe is like taking away yasuo's double crit chance.

If your willing to take away azir's aoe this easy then why is it so hard to give zoe a decent nerf?

Also, I don't know if it is just me but I think that nerf for Azir may just push him back into a nerfed to the ground state?

ThrakosJan 31, 20184 votes

As an azir main the q cooldown nerf is deserved. He really is supposed to be a late game champion and with his q cd that short it made him alittle strong. But the w nerf is a little much, azir as a champion really is a teamfighter and in the hands of someone who knows the champion, should be able to really show it by positioning and killing the target, so i see how it could be somewhat a good nerf to balance him. But to reduce his roaming with the early game w is really bad. Azir isnt a great roamer with his ult rank 1 dmg being pretty small compaired to other champions. Its really about how he uses it. This will make him useles early and in low ranks, really hard to use. I think they should atleast rethink the numbers.

KreienJan 31, 20184 votes

My target isnt q tho. The q nerf is fine.

My problem is with the w nerf. Azir is known for late game damage and aoe dps. I am also an an azir main. I want azir to be viable not unplayable. I want azir to stay true to his core machanics. They can remove the shuffle. Just not the aoe.

Tbh I just want this answered. T_T

ViatorJan 31, 20182 votes

I feel the same. As an Azir main, I think the W nerf is too impactful. His waveclear is already weaker than prerework, plus there are tons of champion that can waveclear faster than Azir.

ThrakosJan 31, 20182 votes

Azir mains need answers!

ViatorJan 31, 20181 votes

Maybe starting a new thread on the board on gameplay might help, but I doubt it will be any help. Just let them completely ruin Azir and then rework him again.lol

skillshotsRcoolFeb 1, 20182 votes

Also known as the Ryze method. Doesn't work, the balance team will just go and ruin the rework as well.

Pokemonred200Jan 31, 20187 votes

Actually, one last question. When opening up Botlane, how do you think this will effect synergies between supports (especially enchanters) and non-marksmen?

item 3504 Janna Lulu Nami for example, all boost AD champs more than they'd boost AP ones with their sterioids they give to other champions (Ardent Censer and Lulu giving Attack Speed, Janna giving AD, Nami giving bonus damage on basic attacks)

I would genuinely enjoy seeing mages (especially Ziggs and Cassiopeia) botlane, but at the same time, I'm not sure how well enchanters would have synergy with them when their ally-targeted damage boosts seem to be more helpful toward basic attackers, like marksmen and skirmishers (Fiora, Yasuo, Master Yi, and Tryndamere). Would there be direct changes to them (a-la Nunu; I'd not like this given how that seemed to be such a massive shove in the direction of 'busted'), or do you think Mages would likely see play with different types of supports, such as a second mage (Brand/Cass sounds like hell, actually) or a CC tank (such as Alistar or Leona to make landing spell combos easier, while making it hard to get to you). I'm exited to see what you come up with in any case, but support synergies is what I've currently realized might become an interesting point to think about.

SteelflameJan 31, 20182 votes

Actually, Nami's E is a better buff to APs than ADs, because it scales on their penetration, and its a fixed 3 attacks, and AS just lets you get it out faster, but its the same overall damage increase before penetration which does favor mages. Most mages are absolutely fine using a few autos in a fight, and not doing so is a problem with the player, not the mage.

ZaNJeTsUJan 31, 20186 votes

What happened to the top lane talk you said before, and when will you start working on it?

AjXtarJan 31, 20186 votes

Seriously, why are you all so obsessed with bot lane. Supports and ADC got the best of all and you are still obsessed and making those roles even better while top lane is still in a bad spot that you don't even try to save it or at least have a better explanation on how would you do that and saying "new rune in the works" is not really something that I accept when you created a meta that poke wins over any other type of champion in the top lane.

Poke is the arch enemy of top lane and you don't even care about that anymore. At least in the past years you accepted that fact and tried to make changes accordingly, but now you don't care. Why? What has changed?

ArtemiaJan 31, 20186 votes

Hi Meddler, I'd like to hear your thoughts on potential changes for Ahri W that will (hopefully) happen down the line.

I'm also interested in your opinion on Syndra's current state. As far as I know, there are no plans to make changes to her, despite her 46% winrate. Could this be related to the AP itemization changes down the line? I do understand that the champion can be very problematic if she ends up being very strong (especially since PowerOfEvil is having some success with her in competitive right now).

Sir NopeJan 31, 20185 votes

Opening up bot lane? Does that mean Mordekaiser’s gonna be revisited soon(tm)?

Also, I have to know: What was the reasoning behind giving Nunu the AP %boost on his W?

EDIT: Beyond just opening him up to AP champs, I mean. Why not a flat number? And why 40%/+105 at Rank 5?

RiotMeddlerJan 31, 20186 votes

Morde needs Morde specific work. Trying to push him pretty hard into a duo lane wasn't successful. The mid-season bot lane work's going to be about giving other classes the tools they need to function better there like items, synergies between supports and non marksmen, maybe tower changes etc, rather than trying to put specific champs in there by changing their kits.

Nunu wise yeah, allowing him to synergize with more champs than just those after attack speed was the driver. A percentage was used so that he was offering power specifically to champs going with AP builds, not just those with some AP ratios on their kits. Result otherwise is that you still want to be Blood Boiling ADCs specifically, just want to make sure you've got someone like Kog who gets a decent amount of damage from that added flat AP too.

Zoli BenJan 31, 20184 votes

Roadmap when? item 3070

RiotMeddlerJan 31, 201811 votes

Fairly soon.

More seriously, sometime this week. Might even be today, I'll check once people are around and get back to you.

Edit: As below it will be later today.

ZΔUNJan 31, 20181 votes

Thanks for the quick answer ! Hopefully shipping today [slayer-pantheon-rainbows]

RiotMeddlerJan 31, 20186 votes

Just confirmed, yep, later today.

HolgranthJan 31, 20184 votes

Hey Meddler I saw on the new "Gameplay Goals" video that you are trying to make Champions viable in multiple roles again. Any chance that Jungle Nautilus will be looked at? I feel very strongly that he could be made viable and balanced by adding bonus damage to monsters to his w or e without giving him too much power as a support or top laner. I bought Nautilus in 2012 to play as a jungler. I am very disappointed that Riot has let this play style get destroyed. Why don't you give struggling junglers bonus damage vs monsters more often? I feel like its a good solution to prevent them from having too much damage vs other champions or pushing power in lane.

I freely admit I'm bias and have a huge emotional connection to Jungle Naut because I met my wife to be playing Nautilus, our plan is to have Nautilus and Nami on top of our wedding cake.

RiotMeddlerJan 31, 20184 votes

Jungle Naut - Yes, want to make sure he's at least an ok jungle pick again. Talked about him and a few other champs who've historically been able to jungle but are struggling to at present yesterday. Probably won't make it onto the docket for 8.4, expect he'll be soonish afterwards though.

Pokemonred200Jan 31, 20184 votes

Two main questions here:

Any update on the replacements to Frost Queen's Claim/Talisman of Ascension? (And maybe Face of the Mountain?) My support-oriented self is really missing the two items.

Secondly, will item 1039 's mana regeneration ever function while present in the river?

RiotMeddlerJan 31, 20185 votes

We've got a new version of Shurelia's Reverie back in testing. Suspect it's more likely to be in 8.6 than 8.4, will probably PBE it earlier than that though to get more feedback on. Potentially same timeframe, including early PBE, for Spooky Ghosts (not sure what name we'll use there yet).

Going to be looking at mana regen for junglers in 8.4. Don't think that particular solution has been discussed yet, I'll bring it up though.

Pokemonred200Jan 31, 20183 votes

Ayy, that's good to know :D

Does that mean Twin Shadows won't be coming back as the name for our Spooky Ghosts, though? I did like that name for what it was.

I can't wait to see what you do for mana regen for junglers in 8.4, though. Mana Regen in the river, as well as something similar to blue buff's old smite (which was built into Ranger's Trailblazer if memory servers) are both ideas I'd like to see. It'd be great to see what 8.4 has in store for us, then.

KyunseiJan 31, 20184 votes

Any context on the Tryndamere Q up revert ?

Felt like too much or simply looking to up/change other aspect of his kit ?

Seviel VoroseJan 31, 20184 votes

Hi Meddler! Anything planned for Syndra yet? She's a bit the weak side right now, with a low winrate even though only mains are playing her.

SlachhhJan 31, 20184 votes

Thoughts on Kindred?

CyberBaltJan 31, 20183 votes

After bot lane has been opened up, would you guys look into also letting marksmen start in other lanes? I don't play adc but that's a concern I saw some of those players have -- having their lane opened up to other classes, while they themselves are still locked in bot lane.

RiotRiot MapleNectarJan 31, 20185 votes

I think this becomes a natural follow through on this sort of project. If marksman weren't able to reliably go into other lanes, but for some reason the meta flipped to 100% mages bot lane, we'd find ourselves in a world where marksman have literally no place in the game. Whether that be through individual champion tuning/items/systems I think that'll be an implicit goal we have, while also making sure that if marksman are suddenly more viable top lane they don't completely usurp the classes that prefer top lane.

Illâoi Evê SiônJan 31, 20182 votes

Any plans for Jungle Fiddlesticks?

RiotRiot MapleNectarJan 31, 201813 votes

Yep! We took him on for 8.4. Some concern regarding how we can make his jungle healthier while not also making middlesticks nucking futs, but the desire is there!

JmmanJan 31, 20181 votes

Not possible you have Zoe to take that roll.

But in all fairness if you use "e" to poke or farm you will push your lane hard. This will make ganking him very very easy. Then again too much "counterplay" relies on would has the better jungle player and pick as jungle.

with fiddle bad melee AA animation and damage, then top on how the "E" bounces to non-hit mobs. Unless he got some killer buffs I see in NO WAY him because as strong or bad some a lot of the Mid lanes. Its it people don't like playing passive?

Since you think he might be too strong in the middle how does the Champs his is strong against being Meta come into play with his strength?

Who does he counter? Ryze Syndra Azir Fizz Orianna Zed

Then you look at the .52% played rate. It seem to me that people are counter picking him mid. I know I don't have all the info you do. But with such a low play rate I don'y know about being nutz. (unless you give him a Nunu buff)

I just don't want the normal Riot "buffs"... where you make him weaker in the jungle. Then Nerf the lane and support because you "buffed" him in the jungle. Then the 3rd least played mid with the 1st higher average game played because trash everywhere for everything. I just kind of confused on how Zoe can really one shot people but fiddle mid gets "might be CRAZY" if we buff him with his all delayed damage and just stand next to turret if you don't see him because he is in the bush counter play.

Glory ln DeathFeb 1, 20181 votes

with fiddle bad melee AA animation and damage, then top on how the "E" bounces to non-hit mobs. Unless he got some killer buffs I see in NO WAY him because as strong or bad some a lot of the Mid lanes. Its it people don't like playing passive?

Did... did I just witness a stroke?

JmmanFeb 1, 20181 votes

No, rage at how "debating" of buffing fiddle to make him not crap. But worried to not make him "nucking Futs"

All the while

Other champs are buffed to crap without worries...

Champs that have no real counter play and crazy damage.

He has a really slow bad AA auto. This makes farming hard. The way his bats bounces makes farming hard. Everything in this kit is not good for farming. Event with leveling crows first he lose a lot of CS score and well under all the other Mids / mages.

Its bullshit that Zoe is the way she is but worried about fiddle. Its like we can't event try to help with champs without making sure everyone can still pwn him. He has MAJOR game play issues with how his skills interacts with the new kits. Most of his damage is stopped by one CC spell. Unless the immobile dot champs can take a 2v1 or 1v1 without enemy minion help he can't do good damage without Ult and flash.

But hey Akali Needed the VGU. he is literately of the worst and most needed update ( Nunu first them him.) but they don't care. But since you don't want to VGU him but don't want to really buff him makes no sense. Heck the buff a lot of other champs and a lot more to wait until their VGU... but fiddle nope cant do that. Heck he get rick rolled by support tanks. with that damage and CC is crazy.

Its like with all the craziness in the game you think buff bad champs would be ok. but this comment shows they are more worried about a small fiddle buff than item 3147 Zoe Ornn , that state of top lane, ADC in general (still buff them right?), Tank supports, etc etc. I have never once heard they are worried about NUCKING FUTZ from any of these.

CAN RIOT PLEASE GET SOME PROFESSIONALS THE COMMUNTY AS A WHOLE IS GETTING TIRED!!!!!! (I think everyone can get behind this statement)

Glory ln DeathFeb 1, 20182 votes

I'm talking about how you constantly break down into unintelligible gibberish, not arguing any of your points. Slow down and fix your autocorrect or whatever it is that's causing this.

CyberBaltJan 31, 20181 votes

Could we get some context on the spellbook nerf?

RiotMeddlerJan 31, 20186 votes

It's too strong a choice at this point primarily just for the CDR on your existing Summoners, rather than because swapping's offering enough. We've been working on an updated version of it, it's not ready yet though. Taking power out of it as a short term measure as a result, rather than leaving it too dominant until the new version's out.