Quick Gameplay Thoughts: April 28

RiotMeddler·Apr 28, 2017·1 votes·31,901 views

Hey all,

Usual deal, thoughts on some stuff below. Next week should be looking a bit more at 7.10 stuff and then thoughts on how the mid-season changes have landed/what followup's needed.

Twitter Updates

From today on in addition to posting stuff here I'll also be tweeting out a link to these posts. @RiotMeddler / https://twitter.com/riotmeddler should you wish to follow for those. Will probably use the account for the occasional other thing as well at some point.

Possible 7.10 work

Now that the 7.9 patch has been locked (we're in the final testing period, so can't put any more changes into it) we've started looking at 7.10 changes. It's likely there'll be a fair bit of followup to mid-season needed, so it's hard to speak definitively about what will be in 7.10, work we're looking at though includes:

Malz - W changes to make his solo laning more rewarding, reduce unhealthy impact of his support play (lack of good counterplay especially)
Heimer - Still looking at him, with focus points being late game effectiveness, better gameplay around turrets for enemies (melee ones especially) and being a better mid laner.
Rammus - Looking at some tweaks aimed at giving a bit more satisfaction/skill expression to ability use, clearer counterplay and a bit of modernization (e.g. more consistent collision checking on Powerball)

Talking about potential work like Heimer's

A little while back I mentioned we were going to try and get some work on Heimer in during 7.8 if time permitted. That didn't end up being possible though and 7.9 was busy enough it didn't make it in there either. As above It's still something we plan on doing at some point, but doesn't yet have a guaranteed patch date and that's something I wanted to talk about a little.

When talking about upcoming work we've got two options. The first is to only talk about something when it's got an all but definite release date and is in a pretty final state. The second is to talk about things we're working on or planning to work on, but don't necessarily know exactly when we'll finish or what the exact changes might be. My inclination is to at least some of the time talk about work, like that Heimer stuff that's subject to change, on the theory that that both lets people give feedback earlier when it matters more and gives better insight into what we're thinking about. That does have the downsides though that sometimes stuff will get mentioned without details, get mentioned and not happen or get mentioned but take quite a while to happen. That seems like an ok thing to me, would love to hear people's thoughts though.

158 Comments

MordepoolApr 28, 201728 votes

As for talking about potential work down the line for some champions. Or nothing until locked in
##Just keep talking alot of We Board enthusiasts help spread the word. To people who miss the memo

RiotMeddlerApr 28, 20178 votes

Appreciate the feedback/support.

patmax17Apr 28, 20178 votes

Keep it coming, I liked knowing about Rek'Sai even if we have no concrete information yet. Maybe use a disclaimer banner for these posts, like IronStylus used to have? ("remember: no promises"), or like Moobeat has on FF@20 PBE updates

RiotMeddlerApr 28, 20178 votes

That's a good idea, I'll throw one in as standard rather than just a sometimes mentioned thing.

ZielmannApr 28, 20176 votes

Any chance of allowing Rammus to activate blast cones while in powerball? And maybe Kennen while in lightning rush (similar situation)? Or is that potentially too much added power?

Regarding talking about future stuff, I'm all for it. I think it would help understand your team's thought processes when considering major changes, and the goals behind those changes.

RiotMeddlerApr 28, 20176 votes

Hmm, not sure on power impact. There's also a slight cost clarity and perceived wise to allowing some champs to activate them without auto attacking. I'll pass the suggestion onto the designer looking at Rammus though.

6SfoolApr 28, 20172 votes

Would you consider an option to make attack move target plants? I still haven't gotten used to the size of them, and I think it would be way easier to aim if we didn't have to be able to hover the mouse over them at the exact moment that we were standing in the right spot. I have lost count long ago of the times I end up losing 2-3 seconds because I missed the plant the first time and needed to set up again.

RiotMeddlerApr 28, 20175 votes

Plants aren't part of attack move because we don't want the large number of accidental triggers that would create. At present you can attack move freely through the jungle, and often should, only needing to consider plant interactions if you want to use one. If we make it so attack move targets plants you'll need to constantly watch for it and should often not attack move in areas with plants when you'd otherwise want to.

MrBuffingtonApr 28, 20176 votes

{quoted}

When talking about upcoming work we've got two options. The first is to only talk about something when it's got an all but definite release date and is in a pretty final state. The second is to talk about things we're working on or planning to work on, but don't necessarily know exactly when we'll finish or what the exact changes might be. My inclination is to at least some of the time talk about work, like that Heimer stuff that's subject to change, on the theory that that both lets people give feedback earlier when it matters more and gives better insight into what we're thinking about. That does have the downsides though that sometimes stuff will get mentioned without details, get mentioned and not happen or get mentioned but take quite a while to happen. That seems like an ok thing to me, would love to hear people's thoughts though.

Why not a bit of both, with disclaimers/section headings? And if something gets delayed/cancelled, a quick update like "Heimer changes delayed" would be sufficient. I know you want to keep these informal/not be patch notes and just have discussions about upcoming stuff, but I feel like a bit more rigid structure wouldn't hurt. Like have an running list of things y'all are looking at and update the items as necessary, something like (completely hypothetical here):

In Beddler with Meddler: 4/20

[standard quick gameplay thoughts]

Upcoming changes : passive looking a touch too weak, working on ways to improve interactions without giving too much power : looking to take power out of stats and put more power into active/passives to increase interaction

Future directions

: Fiddlesticks mini-rework postponed (see In Beddler with Meddler 4/14 for more information) : currently exploring ways to increase lane interactions and jungle strength : exploring ways to implement in SR, perhaps as a skin for epic monsters

iahim98Apr 28, 20175 votes

Meddler about the Gargoyle Stoneplate case with true damage, instead of making gimmick changes to it that will hurt everyone so it won't be abused by 2-3 champs, make it an exception and reduce the true damage dealt OR just make it so it gives a shield instead of actual hp (sorry Vandiril), and it would solve the hp scaling problem too.

LankPantsApr 28, 20174 votes

Malz - W changes to make his solo laning more rewarding, reduce unhealthy impact of his support play (lack of good counterplay especially)

Can we expect any similar changes to Zyra who's also seen her mid role become increasingly marginalised in favour of her support role and who's support role honestly has similar problems with her whole "drop 3 plants instantly win any trade" thing she has going on?

The Yetii RiderApr 28, 20174 votes

Will we see any work on Rek'Sai in 7.10?

RiotMeddlerApr 28, 201710 votes

Not 7.10 no. She's not forgotten, but, unlike the Malz/Heimer/Rammus stuff mentioned here needs some meaningful artist time, not just designer time. Mid-season work like the new Rift Herald's made it harder to get that time recently.

Jus de CastagneApr 28, 20174 votes

Do you plan any change on Rakan ? He seems kinda weak atm

RiotMeddlerApr 28, 20176 votes

We don't have any changes planned right for for Rakan or Xayah. Rakan's got some learning curve to him, and when he screws up it's painful and obvious, which means he can look weak. We've seen him be really effective as well though when played well, so if anything would be more cautious of him being too strong than weak. We'll see where they sit after mid-season lands.

cocacolalipsApr 28, 20174 votes

Opinion on letting Rakan self cast E in some way?

He is literally the only champion in the game besides Soraka with her W (which costs health thus wouldn't make sense) who can't self cast his supportive abilities. Feels bad when he is alone or when he duels someone else. 2 buttons isn't as fun as 3.

Forhonor321Apr 28, 20174 votes

Out of curiosity what ever happened to the changes to Cass with the smoother tail movements like Sol? Did they get scrapped, are still being worked on, or just forgotten? It's been quite some time now since we've heard about it.

Also, can we get some news or updates on Urgot, like teasers coming soon or an expected PBE patch to see him in?

Onkel MalteApr 28, 20173 votes

I'm excited to see those Malzahar changes, because his W is so inconsitent in terms of damage and it's his main damage source overall.

Allthough I don't really think you can fix something that is broken beyond repair... :/

deadlychuckApr 29, 20172 votes

It's inconsistency really just comes from the health system.

It works for something like wards or GP barrels, but it's absolutely terrible for active minions like voidlings and zyra plants. Where as you could also attach it to something like shaco boxes, heim turrets, or elise spiders.

Though the need for the health system only exists because of the swarming mechanic. If you instead summoned a single strong voidling per cast (with say storing two charges), it'd probably be much easier to balance and design.

Though for some reason, they feel he needs "swarm", which really just means like 8..., of voidlings to make him feel like a minionmancer. Where as pre-rework AD malzahar felt like 3 times the minionmancer as the reworked version ever could.

WinterkillApr 28, 20173 votes

I don't know much about the new support item changes but did Spelltheif lose its damage increase against other champions? I am really not believing that you guys are going to continue putting off the support role for another year, since it was already announced that divers will be next. You have tried several times to make the starting items more interesting and it all has failed. What do you plan to do next after this turns out to be a failure as well?

RedesignatedApr 29, 20172 votes

Wait until the next roster update after divers and do some other minor, menial, and unimpressive changes to support that won't help it at all and may even damage it, just like they've done every other time.

FatMansRevengeApr 28, 20172 votes

How has the Shen changes looked from your end? It seems that a split pushing/duelist with Ferver build is popping up in Korea. Is that a direction you're comfortable with for him, or would you like him to stay primarily a tank?

RiotMeddlerApr 28, 20175 votes

We're cautiously optimistic on the Shen changes, but I'd imagine we'll need to do some more work at some point soonish still. One of our main goals was to shift his power around somewhat so the discrepancy between organized play and matchmade play wasn't so extreme (he's often been pick/ban worthy in organized play and at best somewhat weak in matchmade). I'm hopeful we've closed that gap somewhat, we haven't seen any significant organized play on the changes yet though. It's also possible that, even if we have closed that gap somewhat, it might still be large enough to be problematic.

Not sure about the duelist build, will need to check in with the Live Gameplay team and pick their brains on whether that's a concern to them. Provided he's still got clear strengths/weaknesses and at least ok counterplay doesn't bother me conceptually certainly.

HalcyonDwellerApr 28, 20175 votes

What if the channel duration for Shen's ultimate decreased with %health missing from his target? This might be good for rewarding using it to save allies rather than using it offensively.

RiotMeddlerApr 28, 201710 votes

That would push it towards ally saving yeah. Downsides are you pay for it in clarity and counterplay. A meaningful duration gives time for other players to prepare for another champ (who's got hard CC) popping in from anywhere on the map and ensures Shen doesn't get too easy an escape from it (important on a splitpusher). A fixed duration makes it much clearer when Shen will appear and lets you tailor audio/visual effects to help communicate that.

Linna ExcelApr 28, 20172 votes

Why does riot hate Caitlyn? I thought that she looks fine aside from maybe needing a slightly newer model. Why are you trying to gut her visuals when people like her?

WendígoApr 28, 20178 votes

[{quoted}](name=Linna Excel,realm=NA,application-id=A7LBtoKc,discussion-id=Bq7mzELo,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2017-04-28T16:16:53.632+0000)

Why does riot hate Caitlyn? I thought that she looks fine aside from maybe needing a slightly newer model. Why are you trying to gut her visuals when people like her?

Because her design is a joke

RiotMeddlerApr 28, 201715 votes

Help me out a bit - what does 'gut her visuals' here refer to?

patmax17Apr 28, 201714 votes

I think he's referring to the recent Ask Riot where it said that Caitlyn's sexyness isn't appropriate for her character (i.e., she'll be less sexy if/when she gets a visual update)

I'd say if that's what he means, then the user is quite missing the point of that very article, but maybe that's just me

EROTIC RAID BOSSApr 29, 20177 votes

he also needs to get a life. they're totally right that her visuals are a mismatch

Palemon IIIApr 28, 20172 votes

What are your guys thoughts on Kled? Is he in a good state?

RiotMeddlerApr 28, 20178 votes

My personal theory is that he's a bit strong, though hasn't been played sufficiently by enough people for that to be really apparent. That's certainly not proven though and we don't have any current plans for him.

WinTheWarOnPantsApr 28, 20173 votes

Is it even possible to assess kleds stregth? I don't even think kleds designer can tell you how he actaully works lol

CàneApr 28, 20172 votes

Still waiting on that rek'sai update you promised some months ago

Chromatic EagleApr 28, 201714 votes

Using the word promise is probably why they dislike talking about things without a concrete date.

RiotMeddlerApr 28, 201715 votes

Yep. Planning to keep talking about stuff, but that's going to mean some occasional friction when talking about something in progress gets interpreted as a promise.

RNG ZinouApr 28, 20172 votes

MEDLLER What are your thoughts on gangplank Popularity,win rate,crit and bruiser builds?and are there any future plans for tri force item 3078 ?

Meep ManApr 28, 20172 votes

What if you guys just removed the normal shot portion of Heimer's turrets? This would make them weaker against melee champions, while buffing them against ranged units. It also makes them be a little bit less of "mini stat checks" since you can avoid their damage. This would:

Make turret placement much more important to make dodging the lasers harder
Make melee champions have an easier time fighting turrets
Make turrets have a better chance when fighting ranged champions
Make Heimerdinger think about whether he wants to sit behind his turrets or go in to mark champions with AAs to make turrets perfectly prioritize them

It seems to be a huge win to me, especially if you bump up the projectile speed, charge time, and range on the laser aspect of the turrets, making Heimerdinger a much better "Siege Champion" since he would put the enemy under a constant barrage of lasers, but not really wreck the tower. This would translate to him being a better late game champion since his main problem late game is when the "my turrets instantly die due to huge, indirect late game damage" situation happens. If turrets were longer range, this would make them usually not be in the front line/"middle line" so any damage reaching them would be deliberate and with purpose.

Something like: Damage- 40/60/80/105/130 (+55% AP) -> 50/75/100/125/150 (+65% AP) Range- Increased by 66%~ Projectile Speed- Increased by 80%~ Delay- Increased slightly Charge Time- Now gathers 25/31.25/37.5/43.75/50% charge per second (possibly increased by cool down reduction) Normal Attack- Removed

P.S. Maybe also make turrets that are currently active automatically rank up whenever you level the ability OR make them scale by level. It's annoying to have to replace all of your turrets to make them stronger whenever you level the ability.

MunchCrunchLunchApr 28, 20172 votes

What about Ahri's generalisticism? also Lucian's item 3071 item 3047 item 3046 makes him harder to kill than frontliners. due to mobility and those items

warpenguin555Apr 28, 20172 votes

OMG Riot talked about Malzahar. I can die happier now

SkyroarApr 28, 20172 votes

Can Riot also look at making Malz's E a bit more satisfying outside of being a tool to control his voidlings?

For example, putting points in E increases its mana cost, but offers very little to make up for that (the base damage is low). It's also a very slow skill at clearing waves late game, and it's really bad against super minions and baron minions.

Against players, it's generally a fine skill after you build up some AP and mana, but against minion waves, it's not as satisfying as it used to be.

warpenguin555Apr 28, 20172 votes

Will Azir and Kalista have to wait longer for their mini updates because of all the delays Rek'Sai is getting?

4GLTEApr 29, 20172 votes

And not even the sands of shurima know when Azir returns to the rift...

sonics shadowMay 2, 20172 votes

The LOL League system needs to be adjusted. There needs to be a new rule where people that have less than a 40% win rate be banned from ranked games till next season. Or if they constantly feed, forever. This will make it so that the ranked pool is not toxic for thoes in bronze. The way the system is now; you cant climb out of bronze what so ever. It is not possible. I have come close and got to the 100lp. However i lost two games and now i cant ever get out of bronze because people think that it is just a place to f around. Kick all the people that cant play out of bronze and then it will be fixed. Or make it a double kind of thing. If someone has a 0lp score more than 40% of the time then ban them. something to get the worst players out of the system, so that they dont drag everyone down with them.

DCYOUNG888Apr 28, 20171 votes

A few questions. When will the new subclass list be posted? I remember you said sometime around May. What new changes will we see in the new subclass list besides new champs added in there?

EDIT: Will existing champions that have their playstyle/kit changed such as Maokai and Rek'sai be moved to a different subclass?

RiotMeddlerApr 28, 20175 votes

Sometime in May yeah, probably first couple of weeks. Mainly moving champs around, including more in the 'unique playstyles' category (a number of the ones flagged as hybrid weren't really represented by that). Probably moving a couple of champs around who've had kit changes, Statikk should be able to talk more about the details there soon.

DCYOUNG888Apr 28, 20172 votes

Will the subclass list be constantly updated this time as new champs get released or champs get reworked? For example, Evelynn will become more like an assassin than a diver once her rework gets released, or Urgot's rework will have a more defined subclass.

RiotMeddlerApr 28, 20174 votes

We'll probably update it every so often, at a guess once or twice a year though rather than with each release. It's much more a list of how we think about stuff than something that has actual gameplay impact, so urgency's a lot lower.

WinTheWarOnPantsApr 28, 20172 votes

Evelynn isn't gonna get a dash, is she? I've always been fine with her being technically a "diver", since giving her mobility would be toxic with her passive. It's a trade off that i've always been ok with becuase her passive is what makes her so fun to play(she really wouldn't be "Evelynn" without it). She plays like an assassin(the truest assassin in the game IMO), but by virtue of how riot classifies "assassins", she doesn't quite fit in.