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Quick Gameplay Thoughts: July 28

RiotMeddler··1 votes·53,170 views

Morning all,


Usual Disclaimers

These posts will often contain talk about future work we're doing, or planning to do, that isn't yet guaranteed to ship. The nature of the work could change or, depending on what we discover, projects mentioned may get put delayed or even stopped. If you'd like to see a Tweet whenever a new one of these posts goes up: https://twitter.com/RiotMeddler


7.15 follow ups

  • Nasus - Seems reasonable so far. He's scary sometimes, but juggernauts should have scary moments when they're in range to melee you.

  • Urgot - Also looking about right, at least initially. Jungle Urgot's struggling pretty hard, but that's as expected, solo lane Urgot seems to be performing fairly well.

  • Shyvana - Potentially too strong, no immediate plans for changes yet though, still watching.

  • Cho - Nerfs hit him meaningfully, may or may not still be out of line in jungle however. It's good to see Cho as a more functional champion (it's been a while), suspect we'll have to do some more work on him however soon or moderately soon.


Cho and Stoneplate

Speaking of Cho, figured it would be good to talk a bit about him and Stoneplate. We're very much aware there are some strong opinions about Cho and Stoneplate out there and it's a topic with a range of opinions on it internally too. We talked about that particular interaction a lot before launching Stoneplate.

Feast's a really high true damage spell, capable of getting to around 1000 damage late game on a tank build, with Stoneplate pushing that up a few hundred more assuming a normal number of Feast stacks. That's more true damage than we'd normally be happy seeing from a champ in a single ability. Cho's got some pretty pronounced weaknesses however, in particular his long cast times, lack of mobility and limited reliability. Between those and the need to build Stoneplate, be around 3+ enemy champs and get into Feast range we concluded it was appropriate to allow the Cho/Stoneplate interaction to exist. So far that's still our take on it at present too.

Having said that completely agree it can definitely feel really rough being on the receiving end sometimes and Stoneplate's still pretty high on our watch list. The ability to use strong combos with it allow some pretty interesting uses and makes it appealing in a range of different circumstances. So far that seems appropriate, possible we do have to make some changes to Stoneplate and/or other things if the power of those, especially relative to their counterplay, gets out of line, whether that's Stoneplate+Cho, Stoneplate+Locket or something else again. The increased reliability Cho gets off his E slow's also noteworthy, and it's possible that while this was ok with an unreliable Q that the increased target access he's now got might prove too dominant long term.


Hotfixes

Forgive the repetition on this one, last time from me I swear. Wanted to cover one final time that our approach to hotfixes has changed somewhat. We've done some technical work which means that hotfixing's now noticeably safer to do. That means we'll be hotfixing a bit more, in particular targeting some things that we're confident are having a negative effect on the game that previously we'd have waited until the next regular patch to change.

Frequency of those hotfixes is likely to higher around big patches, such as 7.15 or pre-season, both because there's more things to potentially need correction and because those are generally the times where we've had a bit less time for gameplay testing on any given change.


Censoring Mastery/Rune Page Names

For anyone that missed mention yesterday the recent really broad censoring of page naming isn't working as intended. That should be back to previous functionality soon.


7.16 Mid lane changes

We've got a bunch of changes aimed at bringing strong performing champs who mid a lot down at present. Not targeting anything too large on any individual champ, more looking to shift the highest performing tier there down a bit generally. Some of those changes are on PBE already, should expect a few more, or adjustments to existing ones, over the next few days though (e.g. Syndra nerfs changing to a ratio nerf instead of a base damage nerf).

271 Comments

Shadòw29 votes

revert the Akali buffs pls.

still can't figure out why she needed them at all.

Raxistaicho26 votes

How is Shyvana potentially too strong?

PeponiPoro1 votes

Explain please ;w;

Penns3 votes

from below 50% to over 55% win rate opieop

LambGotTheCakes4 votes

It's almost like you ignored that it then fell to 51%

Shyvana Böt17 votes

As a Shyvana main these buffs did somewhat help her but no way to make her overpower. I find it kind of funny how you guys might wanna nerf her again making her useless again. when so many junglers are 10x better than her.

Especially when Warwick can solo dragon at lvl 3 with no smite upgrade and all he needs is passive and one smite charge, while Shyvana for sure needs a smite upgrade and at least 1 dagger. Even tho her passive is meant to kill dragons quicker its really not quick. feelsbadman

Kiitzu6 votes

This is my exact reaction to what they said too. There is no way that Shyvana is that much better with the changes they gave her.

Jivewolf6 votes

[{quoted}](name=Shyvana Böt,realm=NA,application-id=A7LBtoKc,discussion-id=BL0TEAYE,comment-id=0046,timestamp=2017-07-28T19:15:59.038+0000)

As a Shyvana main these buffs did somewhat help her but no way to make her overpower. I find it kind of funny how you guys might wanna nerf her again making her useless again. when so many junglers are 10x better than her.

Especially when Warwick can solo dragon at lvl 3 with no smite upgrade and all he needs is passive and one smite charge, while Shyvana for sure needs a smite upgrade and at least 1 dagger. Even tho her passive is meant to kill dragons quicker its really not quick. feelsbadman

Up against the top tier jugglers such as Warwick Maokai , Sejuani Shyvana's really not that good. The cinderhulk, stoneplate, locket, jungles (with the exception of Warwick) offer much more to the table than Shyvana and are constantly abused in my elo (diamond). I've almost never seen Shyvana played in high elo and if I do the player usually doesn't do that well. I just think it's a shame when a dead champ gets a little bit of life brought back and people instantly want a nerf. item 3070 item 3070 item 3070

Comrad Black14 votes

Quick question: what the fuck are you guys doing to Galio?

As a Shen player I was prepared for him to be a balancing problem, but he's at a 46% win rate in solo, and is already a niche pick when compared to the (in competitive) S+ tanks of Cho, Maoki, Gragas, etc.

I normally try to be more cordial, I just legitimately can not understand why Mao having a 54% SoloQ winrate and being a competitive pick is fine, but champs with defensive globals just get auto-dumpstered. As someone who enjoys teamplay-oriented champs, it's really, genuinely frustrating. Whacking around Shen's balance without putting in any real effort to smooth out his kit is one thing, beating the dead horse that is Galio just feels so bad.

Glory ln Death12 votes

I'm curious about the goals or purpose of the Sion buffs currently on the PBE (W health bonus increased from 2 -> 3 for "small" units, R max damage increased from 300/600/900 -> 400/800/1200). Sion currently has very good performance in most tiers - normally sitting in the top 5 winrates for both Top laners and Supports, so he doesn't really need buffs just for a performance boost.

I can think of a few possible reasons for the buffs:

  1. Push him further as the roaming tank (more damage with long range ults, more health punishes him less for missing farm while roaming).

  2. Boost his jungling (more health from clears, more damage for ult ganks), since that was one of his intended roles in the rework.

  3. Trying to boost his playrate, since he is almost entirely played by mains (Unlikely, since, while W buff will help newer players as much as experienced ones, the ult benefits mostly veterans who can hit long ults more easily).

I'm curious what Riot's actual reasoning is, and whether he would need some nerfs to balance out the buffs (he would).

RiotMeddler11 votes

Ult - Sion's a tank who often controls fights as much through zones of threat as actual CC/damage (stay out of Q, avoid R, kite his passive, don't be near W). Looking to reinforce that a bit with the R by rewarding cases where he's not just popping it point blank on people and instead getting a bit of charge up in. Also has the benefit of making it more valuable for allies to try and set up targets as Sion is ulting in.

W - bit of power being added. Sion's win rates may be higher than many, we don't feel that's representative of him actually being that strong though (lot of ways averages can be non representative).

DeathBurst5 votes

On the topic of Sion, I asked a question in the previous "Quick Thoughts" but you didn't catch it.

Isn't the buff on W too big? It's a 50% increase, going from 2 to 3. Can he really afford that? I'd prefer a smaller buff that still leaves the champion playable than a bigger buff that makes him perma-ban.

RiotMeddler3 votes

Not certain on the W, still testing/discussing that.

ßiggie Cheese5 votes

Meddler,

In my opinion the change to 2 to 3 is fair. Currently, Sion has weak base health to compensate for this mechanic. Sion has to kill ~199 cs at level 18 to match Maokai's health.

iahim981 votes

Sorry thats is not a balance question, but when does this maximum damage happen? Is it at the very edge of the range, or is it something like a fixed time, like after 4 seconds of charging we get the maximum damage?

Glory ln Death2 votes

The damage increases at the same rate as his speed - at 4 seconds (halfway) into his ult, they are capped out.

DeathBurst1 votes

You sure about that "4 seconds"? For me, the time to ramp up was based on your starting speed, so let's say you have homeguard or something like that, you'd get to the max speed in less than 4 seconds.

Glory ln Death1 votes

Yeah, just checked that out. I guess it's that, no matter what his initial speed, he'll cap out no later than 4 seconds in. I'm pretty sure the damage/CC increase is independent to the speed increase, though.

DeathBurst1 votes

I can see 3 different possibilities, but I don't know how to test them:

  • damage is based on time channeled (like his Q)
  • damage is based on move speed at the time of impact (faster ramp-up if you have another speed buff somehow)
  • damage is based on the distance traveled (like Jinx R or Nida spear) -> a bit faster than time channeled, but not as easy to ramp up than just instantaneous move speed

I think Meddler confirmed that for Kled it's based on distance traveled, but I wouldn't bet my life on that.

Glory ln Death3 votes

Alright, I just tested it in Practice Tool. It is definitely based on time channeled. With 400 base movement speed, Sion's ult reaches max damage in the distance shown here:

https://i.imgflip.com/1t9x44.jpg

From the center point of the fountain to just past the Nexus towers. Then I tested it using Ghost, Youmuu's, and Righteous Glory and the ult did less damage at the same point. Not much less, only, like, 20, but still a bit less.

It's actually a surprisingly short distance to get the full charge on his ult. I was totally expecting it to be fully half of the total distance, but it's only about a quarter or a third.

Darkdemon65312 votes

{quoted}

  • Shyvana - Potentially too strong, no immediate plans for changes yet though, still watching.

Surely you jest.

Mobius11 votes

{quoted}

  • Shyvana - Potentially too strong, no immediate plans for changes yet though, still watching.

She's completly the opposite of what you guys think, I don't understand where you get this data from, a bit of ratio on her E and 2 additional armor didn't change anything. Her early game is still completly inexistent (her early Q damage is a joke and it's been like that since the Devourer nerf) and her ult could use some buffs, like +50 hp and +50 damage every ult level, since she doesn't get rewarded enough for hitting multiple people with it (the damage is so underwhelming).

Lovelights11 votes

How is Shyvana too strong? I demand an answer to this. She has been weak for so long and her E buff was hardly a buff at all. In a meta where farm jungling is trash and you can't play her top lane, she doesn't have a place at all in the game.

Linna Excel10 votes

How is Shyvana too strong?

-pick rate/ban rate/main rate is low -win rate in jungle is okay aside from a 2 day peak -win rate as a top is trash -it looks she counters some meta junglers and is countered by some other meat junglers.

The only problem I see with her is frozen mallet is too strong on her, but that might be an item problem and not a shyvana problem.

Lightshield9 votes

Um I'm pretty sure Shyvana is not strong atm.. In fact she is a very underwhelming pick. Not sure why you think she's strong but I can assure you that most people would rather dodge than have a Shyvana on their team.

Solari Fortune8 votes

2 Things I feel could be looked at

  1. item 3301 's gold generation is insane it could possibly stand to be looked at.
  2. I would like it if Janna could get some slight changes to make her a bit more interactive in the lane phase rather than just spam E on her ADC.
ThePurpleKnight8 votes

What the fuck did I just read!? Shyvana is terrible, she's too squishy early for her to be able to build damage but if she builds durability first she ends up too weak to do anything and she brings nothing to the team like a real tank would. She's been the worst Fighter in the game since the rework that removed her passive.

And Nasus and Cho'Gath are just fine?!?!? WHAT?! Nasus' has two weaknesses, a "weak" early game, which is barely even true, and his low mobility, now that you completely shit all over any idea that he's weak early, all he has to do is run MS in Runes/Masteries and he can easily dominate everyone but Kled and Jayce.

Cho'Gath on the other hand literally one shots champions that haven't built any hp. Besides that insane late game one shotting though, he has super strong and easy laning, his insane sustain, base damages and fact that he builds tank make him able to win or at the very least survive lane consistently.

Also Urgot is a ranged top laner, by design he's bad, not really much more to say there, fucking sadists at Riot giving Riven, Jax, Irelia, Shyvana, Trundle, and basically every tank even more bullshit to deal with. Makes the lane as a whole just not fun, you can beat ranged champions sure, but the match up is usually in their favor and you have to put so much more into it to beat them, even when you do it's still frustrating to face.

Spideraxe7 votes

Hey Meddler I got a question about reworks regardless of scope do you guys consult the original designers of the champs when doing a rework

RiotMeddler21 votes

Usually, though it's not always possible (a few people aren't at the company anymore) or not always a good use of time (some people are on R&D now and not so in touch with the current state of the game).

Talking with the original people that built a champ can be really useful to avoid relearning lessons they went through, to understand initial intent better etc. How the champ's been on live and what players have attached to's often more important though, so while understanding that history's valuable it's not a blueprint to stick to over other factors, particularly when some things have proven to be problematic that weren't originally foreseen.

Spideraxe5 votes

Thanks for the answer, amazing context, so like when you guys eventually revisit the Lissanadra passive rework would they have to like chat with you

RiotMeddler8 votes

They wouldn't have to, it's not mandatory, but people usually at least pick people's brains like that a bit. In that particular case it's also a bit different since I'm somewhat involved in Champ Up and Live Gameplay teams's work anyway, so it's easy to offer past context regardless.

Jivewolf6 votes

Is shyvana really that strong when you compare her to cinderhulk plus stone plate plus locket, jungles?

Northmund5 votes

I suggest make ultimate CD buff to increase with the level of ultimate. Example level 1 ult - 30%, 2 - 40%, 3 - 50% And as much as i like Nasus you girls should also increase his Siphoning Strike CD by 1 second.

RiotMeddler8 votes

Having the CD scaling by rank's one of the first things we'd consider if this does turn out to have actually overbuffed Nasus. Not looking necessary so far, very with you it'd be a useful lever if that's the case though.

Forbidden Siren4 votes

Will Karma be a part of the mid lane changes? It seems like she's struggling right now.

RiotMeddler4 votes

Karma's not getting changed in 7.16. Mid lane wise we're looking almost exclusively at trimming power off those who are too dominant.

IxtaliKing5 votes

If I may ask, Meddler. When you do get around to doing the "small work" on Karma you mentioned previously, will it be buffs or some sort of power shift?

Excalibait4 votes

How much did 5 Movespeed help Twisted Fate to accomplish your goals for him so far?

RiotMeddler5 votes

Looks like it's been a pretty minor, but slightly noticeable, power bump so far. No surprises there and that's also all we were looking to give him.

Fishmaster90003 votes

Any thoughts on nerfing lethality? Personally i think whenever jhin builds lethality instead of crit, its an indicator that lethality is too strong.

RiotMeddler7 votes

Lethality looks ok, Duskblade specifically might be too strong still.

Given his kit I'd expect Jhin to be interested in Lethality if the items it's on are ever in a useful spot in general. Dude's got a really AD caster like pattern, even on his auto attacks. We do want to support caster type ADCs through itemization, and Lethality items are part of that, so that's not a warning flag for us as a result.

PulseHDPlus3 votes

Thoughts on Cinderhulk? Looking at competitive play it seems to be by far the best jungler item right now.

RiotMeddler5 votes

We actually think it's pretty close to the right spot, though probably slightly undercosted. Likely we'll increase its cost a little bit as a result.

PickUrMain1 votes

[deleted]

RiotMeddler6 votes

Still planning to do them, it'll be a while though (probably this year, can't be any more definite than that though).

PickUrMain1 votes

[deleted]

RiotMeddler7 votes

Sometime after yeah (not necessarily immediately after).

SexyGalio3booom1 votes

no news about the new champ feelsbadman

Glory ln Death7 votes

Man, we just got Kayn 2 weeks ago, and Urgot's rework 3 days ago. Calm yourself!

Feelsimpatientman

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