Quick Gameplay Thoughts: May 4

RiotMeddler·May 4, 2018·1 votes·61,150 views

Hey all,

Usual Disclaimers

These posts will often contain talk about future work we're doing, or planning to do, that isn't yet guaranteed to ship. The nature of the work could change or, depending on what we discover, projects mentioned may get put delayed or even stopped. If you'd like to see a Tweet whenever a new one of these posts goes up: https://twitter.com/RiotMeddler

Cursor Update

We've just started looking at updating LoL's cursor (it's certainly showing its age). Plan is to have an updated one in internal testing for a while. Once it's looking solid, we'll then get it onto PBE for a second round of feedback (best guess is that'll be a month or two away). We're taking a slower, more deliberate pace with that testing because of how impactful changes to interface elements like cursors can be, especially when you've spent a lot of time using the previous version and are pretty accustomed to how it behaves.

Is pre-minion spawn phase worth the time it consumes?

Something we've been talking a bit about lately is whether or not the phase when the spawning platform barrier is down, but minions haven't yet spawned, is worth the time (about a minute) it consumes. On one hand it can sometimes lead to cool invade, warding or counter jungle play. On the other hand most of the time it just results in people placing a ward or two and then alt-tabbing, spamming /dance etc.

Been wondering as a result whether we'd be better off removing that phase and getting the game going faster, given it's so often a break in game flow right now. Would need to make a number of adjustments to compensate of course to things like trinket timings, champions who need set up time at camps, effects that support invading/counterjungling (so that's still able to happen in some form) etc. If we were to do so it's not something that would happen until preseason and it's still in the category of something we're thinking about, not something we're committed to doing. Would love to hear your thoughts on the concept.

What on PBE is for 8.10 versus 8.11

Been seeing some uncertainty as to which changes currently on PBE are potentially in 8.10 versus which are aiming for 8.11. Quick rundown below as a result for anyone interested:

8.10:

Champion changes with the exception of marksmen base stat changes
Scuttle change, Runic Echo change, Talisman change
Bounty change
Plus likely some more champion adjustments that will come later in the cycle

8.11:

AD item changes
Marksmen base stat changes
Hail of Blades (new Domination keystone)
Plus some other stuff that won't hit PBE until the 8.11 PBE cycle

http://ddragon.leagueoflegends.com/cdn/6.24.1/img/champion/Ziggs.png

297 Comments

iServeAthenaMay 4, 2018119 votes

Please don't get rid of the time before minions spawn. Quite often, the client crashes, or the player just connects really late. That extra minute acts as a buffer for the team to get themselves straight. Also, I've often discussed strats with my team while we wait for the minions to spawn. That time isn't all that boring. It lets us calm down and get a grip on ourselves before the game begins.

TomiMan7May 4, 201830 votes

also its a good time to get back from a pee-break!

saltranMay 4, 20188 votes

I'm with you.

koffi5May 5, 20182 votes

At all it´s only a minute, I could use at least 30 sec for reconnecting with several client bugs to choose from, figure out how you want to play the early game and sometimes these are the only seconds in hours of playing to cool down. Nobody wants to wait after finishing the first game you play, then you have a 20 sec queue and maybe even get autofilled, search a adc, while having junglers selected, panic for a second, have a 10 second chat with your teammates, btw I would recommend skipable 30 sec extra time at the end of champ select! After that you maybe want to have a short pee break you could not possibly have done before, without bringing real anger to your teammates. In like 3 minutes you have to adapt to a whole new scenario, a new lane enemy and a different skillset. I personally really need this minute as a low elo player

Cruelplatypus67May 6, 20182 votes

It gives me the time to show my emotes and skin poses, please we need it :(

SupremeVoidMay 4, 201817 votes

Glad to see you finally update the cursor. Some guesses:

Provide more than one option. (including a polished old one maybe)
Make it future proof. With that I mean scalability for higher resolutions like 1440p, 2160p and so on.
A color and/or size option for every version (if there are multiple) would be good.

Please go full on this one and not only updating a 64px img and do nothing else. This is the right opportunity

RiotMeddlerMay 4, 201815 votes

Adjustable sizing's definitely going to be in there so you can tailor as desired. I'll pass your feedback on to the team on the other points, believe they've been discussing some of that stuff at least already, but not sure what their conclusions so far have been.

DeathBurstMay 4, 20186 votes

I guess I'm in the minority here, but well... I'll say my piece.

Please make the cursor purely functional. I don't care about a little stylized hand that feels Fantasy and Magical. What I do care about is seeing my cursor clearly in heated fights. Even if it means the cursor will be at odds with the feel of the universe.

Glory ln DeathMay 4, 20184 votes

We need a fancy Hextech hand cursor. With animations for the different actions you take. Like tapping with the index finger when you left click and punching when you right click to attack.

DeathBurstMay 5, 20187 votes

Yeaaah, I feel(?) like you're joking, but you'd be surprised how many people actually think a nice/aesthetic cursor is important.

FrankTheBoxMnstrMay 4, 20189 votes

I personally feel like the lull in the beginning of the game is nice to give you some mental time to prepare for laning as well as allow for some lighthearted emote spam before the game gets serious, so I would feel sad if that was removed in the name of reducing game time by a minute.

GaliöMay 4, 20189 votes

Spawn phase is fine. It gives brief breathing room start of game and helps mitigate start up issues: Afk, start delay, brief connection issues, muting all, invade/counter invade communication.

I'm excited for Marksmen adjustments next patch. As I had spammed on the boards I believe a -1 through 3 AD nerf on most marksmen and increase a spell of their by 10 early base damage but increasing mana costs can promote farm or trade patterns with spells but also curbs spamming.

This won't turn all marksmen to casters just curbs early strength.

I feel supports should be slightly less tanky and/or damage however cause the marksmen changed would also promote stronger supports that take the role of Carry (early game especially)

Many equate bot lane to be worth 2.5 players right now while many older players/streamers and pros think a healthier spot for bot lane should be worth 1.8 players.

That would require a huge shift and hitting just marksmen (although a good start) isnt a good direction.

warpenguin555May 4, 20188 votes

Are there plans to add a keystone for DOT or sustained damage mages?

Rework QuinnMay 4, 20187 votes

Happy Friday dude.

Thoughts on how the mana changes have panned out so far?

Also, what are your thoughts on Vel'Koz in mid?

RiotMeddlerMay 4, 20186 votes

Happy Friday!

Mana changes seem to have landed as intended so far (power neutral overall, with strength shifted about a bit). That seems to include mages playing in the support position, which is a bit of a surprise. We'd been half expecting to have to follow up on them, given they weren't using DRing to being with, but did get the other buffs.

The exception to power neutral, who we're monitoring, are a few mages who have lost some noticeable power. They're all the ones who can dump a lot of mana repeatedly (Anivia, Cass, Malz, plus maybe one or two more). Possible item builds adapt to compensate and those champs recover, also possible we might need to do something for some of them.

Solari FortuneMay 4, 20187 votes

Another Meme sentenced to death

Looks at Death Recap Eventually it will be your time

On a more serious note how do you feel the marksmen stuff has been going so far on PBE? I know it still early and pbe is pretty wild. But do you guys feel somewhat confident in the direction it could be going?

RiotMeddlerMay 4, 20184 votes

Pretty good so far on the AD items IMO. Still some tuning needed though, wouldn't swear we've got all the item gold efficiencies right in particular. And a lot of bug fixes still underway too.

XyltinMay 4, 20185 votes

One question about the ADC changes goals. You had 2 goals for Crit ADCs:

delay their power spike a bit more (done by increasing item costs on zeal items)
reduce their late game DPS/burst, especially against squishies. But from what I see the math shows that Shiv + RFC + IE does actually more dmg against squishies later in the game (a tick only) and way, way, way more dmg against tanks, but instead they have a very bad game till they get to 2.5 items.

Right now I see the following problem of creating 2 extremes:

early/mid game ADCs will get a lot of power with 1-2 items while scaling ones lose power. Both together easily leads to one wanting to go passive an farm and at one point it just flips around and turns the table completely. You will get ADCs that try to avoid each other more than they want to fight till one side (early or late) starts to dominate and teams then play around that style and the other style becomes useless or not fun to play. That happens mostly because the extremes are too large (one sucks early the other one sucks late instead of one having a strong but not OP early and still a manageable late game). Making everything the same is bad, but making differences too extreme can be as bad.
late game ADCs get a larger 3 item power spike for +700g. They have the same power as before, just added +10 AD and a giant slayer + LWs ArPen passive added against tanks. At least the math says that the 20% true dmg conversion can keep up with these 2 passives and you get it extra for just 350g (the other 350g are for the 10 AD)

atlıkarıncaMay 4, 20187 votes

Hi Meddler.

Do you know about the new champion?

RiotMeddlerMay 4, 201854 votes

I do yes, thanks for asking :)

Fisher No ChainsMay 4, 201813 votes

Sir NopeMay 4, 201828 votes

Pack it up boys, we’re done here.

Glory ln DeathMay 4, 20185 votes

How exquisitely smug are you as you imagine all of us players squirming in envy of your knowledge?

TomiMan7May 4, 20186 votes

Hey Meddler

Last post you was talking about supports. I'd like to propose a mechanic regarding supports and clearing wards with the red trinket. As a support main its kinda fustrating to find a ward and as im about to hit it the 3rd time the oracle lens runs out and i can no longer see the ward. Since you guys made sure only supports can buy a supp item, could there be a mechanic that gives temporarly attack speed when you are hitting wards(requires to have supp item)? Same mechanic like machete had? OR if this does not works out, maybe if you are hitting a ward and you have your clearing lens going maybe the duration wouldnt go down? Or something along these lines?

EDIT:What do you think about Brand after the mana changes? I feel he got hit hard since he has quite high mana costs.

ChermorgMay 4, 20186 votes

Why so many changes designed to make games as short as possible? First making surrenders easier, now removing minion spawn time.. is this a change in Riot’s philosophy towards short, Overwatch length games, or is there something else going on here?

Akali is SO HOTMay 4, 20186 votes

The pre minion spawn phase is pretty important and should stay imo. Having that extra minute to figure out what to buy, which side of the jungle you want to start on, coming up with a plan with your team, etc. are all useful things that can happen in that one minute. Not to mention invades (although most of the time only get vision for either team) can be really important for gaining an early lead. Also, we need to keep invades so people can keep pumping out the wood division invade plays videos.

The client can crash for players or they might be having technical difficulties getting into the game so having the extra minute for all of the players to sort out any problems that happen with connecting and getting started is good for not putting less optimized players behind. Even if nothing ends up happening during that time period, spamming laugh/taunt/mastery with the enemy team for a minute can be a funny way to start a game. It would do a lot more harm than good if it was removed imo.

IxtaliKingMay 4, 20185 votes

Hey Meddler, are you able to tell us whether or not you still intend to do those "small mechanical changes" on Karma?

SonícMay 4, 20184 votes

So with the recent introduction of Hall of Blades on the PBE, can I ask who it would be aimed at? Its very much a lovechild of Press the Attack and Lethal Tempo, with both of those runes often fulfilling the purpose better. Especially as Hall of Blades can only be proc'd once a fight, would this keystone be aimed at Junglers or what? Im just struggling to see the niche this keystone would actually fill

RiotMeddlerMay 4, 20188 votes

Press the Attack:

I deal sustained damage and can or must potentially back load some of it
I'm willing to trade some personal power for greater team power
I want to be in the Precision tree but the other options don't fit my needs (not a good Conqueror user, don't like Attack Speed as much as some, don't need the MS/sustain)

Lethal Tempo:

I deal sustained damage and my auto attacks are really important. I'm ok backloading some of it
I want personal power
I might sometimes overcap on attack speed

Hail of Blades

I auto attack at least a moderate amount but also want to be in Domination primary
I want to front load my damage (at least a somewhat bursty pattern, or expecting fairly short fights)
I might have a AA combo I want to get off quickly (e.g. Xin)

VekknaMay 4, 201827 votes

We now have 17 keystones. How are you feeling about the auto-attack/ability split between keystones as it becomes more and more lopsided in favor of auto-attacks?

Auto-Attack Only

Press the attack
Lethal tempo
Fleet Footwork
Dark Harvest
Hail of Blades
Grasp
Glacial Augment

Auto-Attack Trigger (mandatory)

Kleptomancy
Conqueror

Hybrid Auto-Attack/Ability

Electrocute
Predator
Aery
Phase Rush

Ability Only

Comet
Aftershock

Just by looking at the spread, it looks like there's a whole lot of design focus on covering every conceivable auto-attacking niche, while everyone else is screened for Aery or Electrocute usability before Comet is assigned to them by default.

gianluca1999May 4, 20188 votes

Nautilus can trigger afterschock with an AA

NaqelMay 5, 20182 votes

Technically, it triggers from a passive ability, which is merely transited via an AA. It's also not a very realistic means of activation given the way laning usually works for a Naut.

You are also completely forgetting other champions with AA based CC, like Braum.

Zed geniusMay 4, 20184 votes

Removing the pre minion spawn phase feels really random to me. What if it can just end up in people just placing a couple of wards and then doing nothing for 1 minute, it's literally one minute, it's not like 5 or 10, doesn't seem like a big deal to me and it would just prevent some cool stuff like invades from happening

StaconaMay 4, 20184 votes

If you shorten the game start time then if someone disconnects... PAUSE. THE. FUCKING. GAME!

Have a 60 seconds pause until everyone connects in fully, if the pause time runs out then the game ends like it never existed AND NO ONE GETS A LEAVER OR LOSS PENALTY! No one should get punished for disconnecting, just make it where the game no longer exists, at worse treat the disconnecter like a dodge penalty and leave it at that, you do not need to go further beyond that.

Also remove the current leaver buster penalties completely and make it like a glorified queue dodge, 5 minutes becomes 50 minutes and 30 minutes becomes 300 minutes (5 hours) and a 3rd tier which is something like a 24 hour timeout (this if the act happens within the same 24 or 48 hours of the previous act). Swift and immediate punishment, gets people to think about their actions with immediate consequence and does not remind them of their sins over any long period of time - the most effective correction is immediate, short term correction.

I WILL LET OUT MY SALT!!!

zippyHDMay 4, 20183 votes

Hello meddler. AzuBK, said that he wanted to release LeBlanc weak/in a OK place(patch 8.8) and then buff her afterwards and fixing some bugs. But there is nothing and everybody(LeBlancMains) wants to know why. Hope you will answer. Would be much appreciated.

RiotMeddlerMay 4, 20188 votes

She's got some more bug fixes and a couple of spell buffering improvements coming up. Beyond that we'll also want to see how she performs in pro. Historically this style of LB's also tended to underperform for average players when she's balanced for experienced LB players too, so I don't think she's far from the right spot. Guessing, but think it's likely we don't make any major power changes as a result.

ZoomaMay 4, 20183 votes

I think the 1:00 or so time before minions spawn is good. you dont really get to use your dance or quotes that often when the game starts. I think people might just stop using them all together if we drastically reduced this time. Also with the introduction of clash that time is often used to plan out the first little bit of pathing and other things that need to be said. Just my thoughts (:

fattypattydaddyMay 5, 20183 votes

#NOTMYCURSOR

AkhriPastaMay 5, 20183 votes

How about making lw and its upgrades 'Ranged' or Assassyuns will abuse it with lethality.

Dog of PavlovMay 4, 20182 votes

Wow somehow checked randomly and ended up being early for this post!

Anyways, thanks for the Syndra Q revert, how has she been doing since then and do you think there will be other changes for her down the road?

RiotMeddlerMay 4, 20183 votes

Early performance suggests she's slightly stronger. We think her gameplay should be healthier as well (more need to hit Q, more effort needed to set up strong ults). Change looks good so far directionally.

In terms of power, maybe more in a bit? Don't think we've got that much room to move though before we start risking pick/ban status again though so wouldn't want to rush things until we've better seen impacts of this change.

Almost CreativeMay 4, 20182 votes

Is Fleet Footwork getting adjusted? Should've sworn I saw that in the Marksmen update thread.

RiotMeddlerMay 4, 20185 votes

From memory we're reducing it's sustain during most of the game. Same start and end points, but most of the increase is backloaded, so will heal less in lane and mid game.

VekknaMay 4, 20187 votes

It seems like you guys are balancing FF around bot lane for obvious reasons, but it feels like sustain balanced for a duo lane is doomed to be overpowered in a solo lane where more matchups are resource-gated and won by attrition. I noticed this recently in a game where I was Lissandra against a Corki. He ate Q splash with total abandon and easily healed it off surprisingly quickly.

But you know how it goes; everything seems OP when the enemy does it. So I tried it myself on mages in hard poke matchups, and it feels even more busted. Not just in lane but throughout the entire game. If you're low hp, you don't need to recall; just aa Scuttles a few times and you're back in fighting shape.

Is that a problem or just working as intended?

WindLord7070May 4, 20181 votes

On your last post you replied about nidalee and said that there are some concerns that you have to deal with before you can let her be a top/mid lane champion again could you talk about what those concerns are? Maybe the nidalee community can help some?

RiotMeddlerMay 4, 20185 votes

Ah, looks like August didn't get a chance to jump into the previous thread. I'll chase him up on that.

RiotAD YuumiMay 4, 201812 votes

Oh hi it me.

Am interested in getting Nid back into a solo lane. Seems high value if we can achieve it given her gameplay and thematics. The issue I'm running into is that her current kit doesn't seem to support lane play without a number of game health risks or risks of making her jungle bonkers.

As a result I expect getting lane Nidalee back would take a number of larger mechanical shifts on the champion as opposed to simple numbers changes. This is doable, but would take time (Similar scope to the work we did on Rengar). Was thinking of doing some exploratory work on her once I wrap up work on my current VGU. No promises however, the exploration could end up yielding nothing of value (Would only make changes if we were confident Lane Nid AND jungle Nid were being made better).

The Yetii RiderMay 4, 20181 votes

Few things here -

A) I recall that during the last rework attempt on Nidalee, Riot said that her heal was important to her theme of hunting and that Nidalee players in general were attached to her not having CC. I think both of these things are a mistake to keep on her.

B) If Nidalee is going to be in lane, she either needs to one shot or she needs some form of utility. At this point, Nidalee's kit does nothing that Zoe's kit doesn't do better. The only thing that Nidalee has going for her over Zoe is her form shift, and really what does her form shift offer her other than 0 mana abilities?

C) Nidalee needs some form of crowd control. I suggest replacing her E entirely with something more offensive. However, if you want to keep E, at least make it so Nidalee can only cast it on herself. There's no reason for her to be able to heal her allies, it doesn't fit with the lore and it doesn't fit with an assassin's kit.

WindLord7070May 4, 20183 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Yetii Rider,realm=NA,application-id=A7LBtoKc,discussion-id=B9N9NiWE,comment-id=001c000000010003,timestamp=2018-05-04T21:54:53.193+0000)

Few things here -

A) I recall that during the last rework attempt on Nidalee, Riot said that her heal was important to her theme of hunting and that Nidalee players in general were attached to her not having CC. I think both of these things are a mistake to keep on her.

B) If Nidalee is going to be in lane, she either needs to one shot or she needs some form of utility. At this point, Nidalee's kit does nothing that Zoe's kit doesn't do better. The only thing that Nidalee has going for her over Zoe is her form shift, and really what does her form shift offer her other than 0 mana abilities?

C) Nidalee needs some form of crowd control. I suggest replacing her E entirely with something more offensive. However, if you want to keep E, at least make it so Nidalee can only cast it on herself. There's no reason for her to be able to heal her allies, it doesn't fit with the lore and it doesn't fit with an assassin's kit.

Nidalee isn't supposed to be like zoe. Nidalee mid was played as a roaming assassin (pre rework nid isn't going to come back) For top nidalee her heal is important to her kit it lets her sustain herself and the steroid lets her be the duelist/splitpusher she was played as she doesn't need cc for either of these 2 roles.