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Quick Gameplay Thoughts: May 9

RiotMeddler··1 votes·140,086 views

Hi folks,

Usual Disclaimers

These posts will often contain talk about future work we're doing, or planning to do, that isn't yet guaranteed to ship. The nature of the work could change or, depending on what we discover, projects mentioned may get delayed or even stopped. If you'd like to see a Tweet whenever a new one of these posts goes up: https://twitter.com/RiotMeddler


9.11 possible changes

We've just done some initial planning for 9.11. Some of the things work will be going into below. As usual smaller balance changes will be assessed and added later in the patch cycle, so this will be far from a complete list. Overall we feel there aren't any large widespread balance issues at present (e.g. entire classes out of line or major game pacing problems) so changes will generally be on the smaller side. As a result we're also starting to shift more work towards investigating possible projects for preseason. More on those to come later in the year.

  • Rageblade Followup

Rageblade changes (Phantom Hit every 3 attacks instead of 2, Pen to flat 15% rather than scaling by level) are on track for 9.10. We're not doing compensation changes to champs who might be affected until it's clear what sort of changes are or aren't necessary. Putting some time aside in advance, in particular to focus on any champs left in a terrible spot. Expectation is there'll likely be at least one champ who needs a bit of work, given the number of current Rageblade users.

  • Yuumi Followup

Nothing too surprising here. As usual could also involve a quick micro patch just after Yuumi's launch if she's clearly way too strong or way too weak even for a just released champion. We generally want to give new champs a bit of time to settle down before making assumptions about balance stats, always possible a release will be sufficiently off the mark it's worth acting immediately though.

  • Aatrox Followup

Less sure if we'll be doing work here or not, given the 9.9 changes are looking ok now post hotfix. Do need to see if they're in a reasonable spot for pro play, given one of the goals here was to lower power in pro relative to regular play so we could buff him for regular play.


Clash

Should have an update on where things are up to and the plan going forward that we'll be sharing later this month. Apologies for some silence, we've been heads down working through some technical stuff.


Wukong changes in testing

We've been working on a small (ish) gameplay update for Wukong for a bit. It's not finished yet, but at a stage where wider feedback would be really helpful. Plan is to put it on the PBE next week (probably Tuesday). That will come with an accompanying context post on what's changed and why, what's not changing, overall project goals etc. Overall the changes aren't a large departure from Wukong's current kit. The biggest mechanical change being tested is that his W clone now lasts a bit longer and auto attacks nearby enemies instead of exploding. Its attacks apply on hits and deal a proportion of Wukong's AD as damage.

After some time on PBE (2-4 weeks at a guess) we'll then pull the changes off PBE. Based off feedback received from that and some other testing we'll make a call on whether to proceed with the update or not. Timing of a release if so is still to be determined, wouldn't be immediate though, given need to go from a prototype made for testing purposes to a more polished version of the changes (visual effects adjustments, bug fixing, balance pass etc).

http://ddragon.leagueoflegends.com/cdn/6.24.1/img/champion/Ziggs.png

188 Comments

WholeLottaLeaks12 votes

What about the client updates?

RiotMeddler11 votes

We've got some work underway, apologies, I'm not familiar with the details though or sure when we'll have an update (I'm not very involved in the engineering side of things, though working to be more so).

leagueplayer4505 votes

the client needs a ton of work.

Emo Twink10 votes

Any chance to make mercury treads less oppressive for immobile champs with only one form of CC, and maybe increase the usefulness against a lot of CC?

I feel like that will be a healthier change because it feels useless against a lot but extremely impactful and unfun to play against with only one form.

RiotMeddler22 votes

Nothing currently planned in that line. Seems like a decent direction to discuss though, I'll pass it on to a couple of folks for them to consider. Could imagine variations that target Tenacity more towards particular circumstances (e.g. some sources are flat and good against single big CCs, another source potentially stacks up whenever you're CC'd so is targeted at chain CC victims).

MalignMetal4 votes

Holy shit TMW, the developers get that being chain CC'd is not fun.

FafliX7 votes

I'd rather see something that's actually good against slows. In many cases Tenacity doesn't do anything since you get chain slowed anyway (like redbuff, Crystal Sceptre, slow fields). And slow resist is only on Swiftness Boots, which are just bad overall. And the amount you get is barely noticeable.

I get that slow resist can get out of hand, but I feel like there is room for more of it. Maybe some kind of active on an item that makes you slow immune for short time?

Kampsycho4 votes

{quoted}

Any chance to make mercury treads less oppressive for immobile champs with only one form of CC, and maybe increase the usefulness against a lot of CC?

I feel like that will be a healthier change because it feels useless against a lot but extremely impactful and unfun to play against with only one form.

Yeah, I would like if Mercs item 3111 had a passive where CC chaining is less effective on you when you have the item, Like something around the lines of

"If you've been hit with hard CC the next hard CC effectiveness is reduced by 50%" That way the item doesn't feel useless vs A LOT OF CC and if you want to avoid CC chain you would have to buy this item and not feel forced into QSS item 3140 when it only builds into an ADC/Skirmisher Item and only other one is item 3222

Just like how Tabis reduce on-hit AA Dmg with a % while also giving armor, Mercs should also give decent Tenacity while having a passive that makes throwing a lot of CC unto this target less effective.

Emo Twink2 votes

omg that idea sounds rly good, I feel like hexdrinker/mercs is a painful combo as some mages (especially without a mini voidstaff or smth) so that would move them to just hexdrinker unless they needed mercs for the extra CC avoidance.

Naalith9 votes

I know a while ago you said buffs for Swain were being considered since his days at bottom are over, is that still on the table?

RiotMeddler7 votes

Nothing underway right now. We did take a look at him a little while back, concluded he was in a reasonable state performance wise and we didn't have room to add power. Would certainly revisit though if things change, just not seeing the justification at present.

Ferros8 votes

Anything planned for camille Camille (top) since the jgl nerfs her top lane performance seams little odd not like before

Spideraxe7 votes

Hey Meddler do you have an update on the Diana stuff as well

RiotMeddler19 votes

Probably hitting PBE next week as well. Context post tomorrow or early next week.

Spideraxe5 votes

Are you able to share the scope of the changes, are they as big as Wukong or something like Aatrox and Tahm

Winterkill7 votes

Congrats on becoming a father, Meddler. I haven't been on a lot. Now to get to why I'm here.

There's all this talk about Aatrox every single week, a Teemo rework, Blitzcrank getting this, Malphite getting this attention. Myself and many other players are still waiting for you to talk about Karma. A rework was planned for her 10-12 months ago and you guys cancelled it. There was a huge backlash against it because Riot Game Developers refused to to listen to the community who wanted more for her. You guys keep pushing her into a support and ignoring the glaring problems wrong with this champion for 7 years now.

  1. Karma lacks a identifiable gameplay identity. Karma was never supposed to be solely a support champion. Karma was a Battlemage with supportive abilities. When this champion received a VGU 7 years ago, nothing was kept in tact and further work on her kit have been identity ruining, support-centric, counterproductive, and cancelled. What does Karma do amazing in this game that another Enchanter, Mage, Tank or item active doesn't do better? Karma needs a unique gameplay identity that is special to her as a champion and the game. Karma excels at being able to do everything but lacks at being able to excel in anything. Her current kit is trying to be a battlemage/support but it's failing at it.

  2. There are problems with her kit. Karma only has one damage move that is blocked by minions, Mantra W doesn't have a ally mechanic and is abused as a tank, and Mantra E is the most requested ability to have mass AOE shields removed. There are thousands of things Riot Game Developers can do with Karma's Mantra Abilities like: ground targeted Mantra Q explosion healing, an ally damage mitigation tether, Mantra E damage redirected shields, and a passive that gathers stacks to charge her R on how useful as a support or mage she is. There are many things that can be done with this champion with her current kit, to make Karma a more unique and interesting champion. Number buffing a champion that has a history of receiving counterproductive nerfs a few months later and buffing only support abilities, is and has not been the answer for the past 7 years Meddler.

  3. Incomplete art assets is a missed opportunity. Karma's in game model is incomplete, her VFX effects are bland compared to other champions in the game, Karma's running and shield casting animation is non-existent (especially when you compare it to the movements she does in the trailers with her abilities.), and her VO is lazily done.


I'm saying you guys owe this champion more than what you have been giving her. I'm saying you guys owe the mains that have been waiting for 7 years to actually talk about the problems with this champion and actually start listening. You guys have a huge plethora of ideas and ways to fix this champion, but you continue to cling on this idea that Karma can only be a backline support that utilizes one or two of her Mantra abilities at a time. Karma was able to use her Mantra abilities in different situations before. She was actually fun to play back in the day, as opposed to a champion that is one of the most dull and boring champions in the game. Half of her kit exists on other champions and item actives . . . . and they do it better, Meddler.

I'm literally tired of seeing an Aatrox rework every single week and a comment about Aatrox every single week. There are other champions in this game besides Aatrox that need attention and have been waiting for work to actually be done. Your silence is either an indication you don't care and you have no intentions of doing anything . . . . or you value other champions more than others. Aatrox is becoming the new Ryze at this point.

Karma

xCrunchy5 votes

Thoughts on the following Champions?

Lux Jinx Draven Nautilus

DCYOUNG8885 votes

Any plans for Swain Swain? Are there any followup changes for Galio Galio since aftershock got altered for him?

Solari Fortune5 votes

Hey Meddler, hows the team feeling bout multiple IE Jhin?

RiotMeddler10 votes

Always feels a little odd to stack items like that when you're not getting stacking benefit from a passive. Not concerned it's too strong from what we've seen. Do have a small buff to ER coming in 9.10 next week though, since conclusion is that's slightly undertuned. Possible that shifts him to IE/ER builds?

MasterMYi5 votes

Hello,designer, i am a Chinese player, it is so difficult to come here and create a discussion. Although my English is not good enough like local players. However, this article is my painstaking effort, i earnestly request designer and balance team can see and think about this. I spent a lot of time to write this. This article was sent to many website in China, it had many comments and agreements in different websites in China such as bilibili, Baidu post Bar, NGA, Weibo, Zhihu and so on. Clearly, it can represent many ideas of Chinese players. The topic is "Full analysis and advice about the rework of Akail" This is the text:

I am a challenger player on Akali in S6 and S7. I think new Akali is not a successful rework.

Since the new version of Akali came out, it can be said that it was frequently boarded on the LOL Pro League (LPL, LCK and so on) , and general players have followed this. This champion can always appear in "TOP 10 operation show" matches in Pro league. However, in ordinary games, the win rate of Akali haven't higher than 50%, especially in mid line (always in about 45%, and lower than 40% in 9.3).The balanced team nerfed her constantly since she was reworked. Actually, her performance is not actually very showy in Pro league. However, what is the reason that she always can appear in Pro league.

1, Stability advantage on top line, in LPL, most professional player afraid solo killed in the match, once they was solo killed by other professional players, there are many news in each forum and board talking about their performance. Obviously, Akali can suppress most champions on top line, when she get a litter advantage, she can kill other champions continuously. We know Pro leagure is not same as ordinary games, the other line usually do not have the condition like our teammates get 0/5, 0/6. Therefore, this champion can make stable advantage and get continuous pressure in her line before 9.3. This is the first reason why she can appear in Pro league but has low win rate in rank.

2, is the distance between the player in rank and Pro league, this is like the conditon of Azir and Ryze. These two champions is not easy to balance. When you buff them slightly, they will dominate Pro league, however, in ordinary games and ranks, their win rates is really too low. Akali is similar to them. Why? Because the teammates in the pro league is different to ordinary games. I know there is a word "troll" in English. This behavior is much more common in Chinese server. The reworked Akali can not solo carry a game. In the Pro league match, the teammates never troll in any game. Therefore, her advantages can be brought to whole team and “operating”(in Chinese) in a game.

I usually follow the forum of American server, the most views about Akali is "Frustration" on her W. It means the enemy always feel bad because of her W. She can repeat QA QA in her W, and the enemy can not counterattack, even those champions who have directive skills. This makes the experience of enemy become very bad. When they killed Akali, they also feel being played by Akali. This is "Frustration"

However, is this experience to the enemy gives Akali players a good experience?

My answer is "No" "Never"

The reason is so easy, because Akali players can not win the game. Many American players only know about frustration, but they didn't think about the problem that Akali can not win a game.

It is true that her solo kill ability and making "frustration" ability are good. However, she can not win the game even though she killed enemies many times. Why?

1, The first reason is Akali does not have a "snowball" ability which an assassin should have. This snowball is not saying about solo kill on the line, it's the ability that helping team and teammates, then go to win. I know the designer emphasize nerfing Akali's snowball ability when she was reworked. However, new Akali's snowball ability is even weaker than Leblanc, Zed. Well-known, in general rank games, Leblanc and Zed is easy to solo kill on their line, but after they killed their enemies for some times, they still can not win this game. This problem on Akali is more serious, compared with them, her skill R has one of the longest 120 cooldown in league of legend, as an assassin. She don't have a continuous fight ability in the game. After she used her R, she is too foolish to the enemy who know her skill combination. In addition, Her fighting ability is rely on her W. If she does not have W, she always can only "ob" her teammates and enemies fights. I think is not a good mechanism. In her W and QA QA, I don't think this is a good design. It decreases the explosive speed of an assassin and making "frustration" on her enemy.

2, The limited clearing minions ability. The energy cost of Akali's Q is too high, only using two times "Q", her energy will be very low. Except in the advantage condition, Akali's Q even can not kill a long-distance minion. After she cleaning the minions, she does not have any fighting ability because of no energy. Therefore, her solo "cleaning minions" ability is too weak. When she cleaning some minions, she does not have any energy to strike back if other enemy champions come.

3, is the killing speed of an assassin. She always can kill many enemies before 20 min in this game. However, it is useless, in the later game, akali always die in “unknown AOE” because she can not make killing faster. The passive skill of her has high damage, but is relative too slow in later game. This is similar to Leblanc in S7. Her passive is too slow in later game, too. To that Leblanc, i think the designer can reduce the passive time (1.5s) in later time. Maybe 1.5s in lv1, 1s in lv 9, 0.5s in lv 15. Then decrease her damage growth. I think this will be a good adjustment. However, that Leblanc is not exist. I will not talk more suggestions about her. Nevertheless, this ways is not suitable to Akali, because her passive value is not easy to change like reduce circles in later game and move speed. Overall, killing speed is really too important to an assassin in later game. It has a positive correlation to the ability of making chance.

Ok, these three points is the reason why she can not win the game, even though she get lots of kills. (Maybe my expression in English is not very accurate, if you want to know more accurate about this, you can ask professional interpreter to translate my Chinese version, if this article is really useful) So, this is the most failure place i think about the rework of Akali.

New Akali's skill mechanism is really not good. The biggest balance problem is her W, however, not like S6 and S7 Akali, her W decide her whole ability of fights. She only can fight with the enemies when W is not in the cooldown. In addition, why old Akali's W does not have any "Frustration", because when old Akali need to attack enemy, she always appear longer time to attack enemy. In this time, other emenies can use any methods to counter her.

About your buffs on 9.4 or 9.5. I think about this for a long time, it is really not easy to buffs her. such as: reduce her Q energy cost, reduce cool down of R and adding AP suck blood. These changes might change a little bit win rate of her. But her problem is W, if W is too weak, akali will stay on the ground. If W is too strong, she will dominate Pro league and bring "Frustration".

I still think old Akali is better, the biggest reason is she can win the game. Her line and solo kill ability in early game is not really good. But she can get advantage in the group fight in early game. It is true that "smurf" can bring negative experience to lower division rank players, however, this is the problem of "smurfs", not old Akali's players' problems. You should try to reduce the amount of "smurfs". In Master and Chanllager even diamond rank , old Akali is really a balanced champion. Her total win rate is always near to 50%(49%-50%) The players who really have higher skills on her can use distinctive operation to win a game. I don't want you delete this distinctive champion. Her ability is unique and interesting (at least no Frustration on enemy players) She has clear weakness and merits. Please think about adjust back to old Akali. To tell the truth, after the rework of Akali, my gaming time on LOL is decreasing about 70%. I just feel boring when i use new Akali that i can not carry this game due to the reason of "troller". I only can report them after the game and feel annoyed. However, these troll players still always exist in the rank game when i play the game. This is true "Frustration" to me. When i play old Akali, i always have feeling that i can win this game. But now, i only can win the game when my teammates have a good performance (at least not "troll"). I feel really so sad, and now, i can not achieve challenger in the first server in China.

"Maybe one day she will come back along that way, but this will be decided by herself." This is your background story about Akali. When i see this, i feel lacrimal. I am waiting for the day which she can come back... that girl. Akali

This article was translated by myself and the author of Chinese version is me too. Maybe my English translation is not actually good enough, if you think it make sense. Please think about this and let Chinese staffs go to that Chinese website to have a look. I really hope designer and balance team can think about the opinion of players, not only in LOL Pro league matches.

Thanks for your reading! 14/02/2019

Xxxyyy MasterYyyi

I tried to type this many times, just hope you can see this.

Roganox4 votes

Hey Meddler, who will you vote for to get the 2020 VGU? The vote just went up.

happy even after4 votes

Hi Meddler! What do you think about TahmKench changes after a while? Did it land in an expected place on both top and support? On a sidenote, I know that jungle TahmKench is not a priority of this update, but would it be possible to buff him somehow? W nerf hit his early clear manawise and Devour sometimes do not remove Scuttle resistance sometimes.

DCYOUNG8883 votes

Are there going to be any followup changes to certain non-tank champions who used aftershock (due to the damage changes) such as Pyke Pyke like how Lissandra Lissandra got buffed that same patch to compensate for the aftershock damage nerfs?

Emo Twink1 votes

I'd love to see Liss getting multiple buffs reverted because she's fairly weak now. CC Bot liss was always an interactive boring thing, and damage liss got nerfed hard because of it.

edit: im dumb i wrote nerfs not buffs

DCYOUNG8885 votes

Wait nerfs because she's fairly weak now, did you mean buffs? And yeah her damage is a little underwhelming and she is supposed to be a burst mage.

CattySpaceDragon3 votes

Hey Meddler, thoughts on Asol? And GLP?

Noxian Gecko3 votes

Plans on the suggested new karma w?

Lissoul3 votes

Is there any word on MF, making her a badass pirate or going with the sassy flirty route? Also anything regarding her gameplay? Cast time on q scaling with atk spd?

ARE YOU PC BRO3 votes

KARMA THO

Forbidden Siren3 votes

Any news on the Karma update or anything plan for her?

HadesBlades3 votes

Why do you have no changes, buffs, or item changes for assassins like Katarina? She has been in a terrible and she is even picking up conquerer as a rune option. Riot you promised to fulfill her fantasy as a fun assassin but she hasn't fit in the meta for the longest time, and there is no reason to pick her from other assassins that exist.

Avar3 votes

WHATS HAPPENING WITH JUNGLEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

HELLO? are camp spawn timers really going to stay like this forever? is riot even talking about it at all?

TheRealBaz2 votes

quick thoughts on rek'sai post nerf?

RiotMeddler8 votes

Is probably about balanced in high MMR play at present, looks weak at low MMR. Not ideal, kit's the sort that skews towards high MMR optimizations though. No immediate plans to try and shift that.

PeachyBubbleStar2 votes

Bruh... Yuumi is Not op... if y'all nerf her it's clear you don't want her to succeed.

RiotMeddler15 votes

As per original post follow up here could mean buffs or nerfs.

If we didn't want Yuumi to succeed we wouldn't ship her. That does happen to some champs, usually fairly early in their development process.

Ahris2 votes

Anything on the Ahri stuff?

Dope Solo10 votes

You mean changes that take her out of S tier now that she's been there for almost a year?

Ahris1 votes

Whose S tier? Yours? Some random sites? Show me LS tier list and I will listen. He is prob imo best from all tierlist.

Dope Solo3 votes

Ugg

ilysmh2 votes

yikes LS

Slachhh2 votes

Thoughts on Kindred post crab spawn time changed?

Shahamut2 votes

Skarner ? :-(

Genital Wart2 votes

Any plan to ever do anything about Twitch jungle? Like 40% of Twitch games are jungle but his jungle winrate is 5% lower than ADC.

PaffWasTaken2 votes

Anything planned to revive Swain ?

Zambosaurus rex2 votes

Do you have any plans for KogMaw Kog'maw in the near future ? Since i was surprise to not see him in the rework vote pool even tought he got a rework but he was reverted

Suƒƒer ąs I havě2 votes

What about those 2 assassins with the lowest win rate on midLeblanc Akali . These two have lower win ratio comparing to the other assassin . Have you made any thoughts about them

Yaz1 votes

Hello Meddler, could you share with us some details about the Zac revert. Which spells will be affected?

RiotMeddler5 votes

Ult revert's the main change. Designer working on it should have a post up next week with details and their thinking on what is/isn't changing and why. We were hoping to hit 9.10 for ship but getting the old audio for the ult hooked up proved a bit more challenging than originally assumed hence the move to 9.11.

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