Quick Gameplay Thoughts: October 4

RiotMeddler·10/4/2019, 4:13:16 PM·1 votes·92,916 views

Hi folks,

Usual Disclaimers

These posts will often contain talk about future work we're doing, or planning to do, that isn't yet guaranteed to ship. The nature of the work could change or, depending on what we discover, projects mentioned may get delayed or even stopped. If you'd like to see a Tweet whenever a new one of these posts goes up: https://twitter.com/RiotMeddler

Some reflections on new champs/VGUs this year

Since the game's in a stable state right now with Worlds underway and preseason fast approaching I figured it would be a good time to share some thoughts on how our new champs and VGUs this year (Sylas, Kayle, Morgana, Yuumi, Mordekaiser, Qiyana, Yuumi) have gone from a game design perspective.

  • Cohesion between gameplay and theme

This is something we've sometimes missed in the past, Kindred and Shen being some of the clearest examples, where kit and theme/backstory don't entirely gell. This year's releases by contrast I feel have done really well here, with gameplay generally delivering on desired fantasy and expectations. Mordekaiser for example hits the massive, dark magic powered lord of the dead thing pretty well. Yuumi delivers on playful, helpful mage's familiar.

  • Uniqueness and Satisfaction (playing as the champion)

I think it’s been a strong year so far in this regard too. I think our new champs and VGUs have generally managed to both bring something distinct to the game and made doing so feel good for the user. Sylas's spell steal, Yuumi's attach and Morde's ult are particular standouts for me here. Some of our past work by contrast has only delivered on one of the two. Skarner's spires are distinct, but for too many players don't feel good to play with. Or from the other side of things Jarvan feels good to play but isn't quite distinct enough gameplay wise I'd argue from other similar champs.

  • Weaknesses and counterplay

Here by contrast I think we've had a much more mixed year, in part because of some decisions we've made that have helped champions feel good to play as. Sylas and Yuumi stand out here in particular, with skilled play on them leaving opponents without sufficient ways to deal with them. Morgana, Mordekaiser and Kayle seem better in that regard so far. Not sure yet about Pantheon and Qiyana, reserving judgement there until they've been out a bit longer and we've got a better handle on which effects might just need some numbers tuning versus have larger issues to solve.

In terms of overall trends this one's particularly on the mind as something we need to get better at. Looking at 2018 releases Irelia, Akali and Aatrox have also been problems in this regard, leading to in game experiences for other players that aren't at the standards we want to hit. All our new releases having good game health, not just some of them, is one of our big champion goals for the coming year.

  • Maintaining Gameplay Identities

Historically some of our VGUs have ended up substantially shifting the gameplay identities of the champions being worked on. In some cases I think that's paid off well, with Sion, Poppy and Urgot for example very successful updates even if their gameplay is very different now. In other cases though we've sometimes changed things unnecessarily, losing things players loved about champions that didn't need to be removed on game health grounds. This year I think we've done quite well, with Kayle, Morgana, Mordekaiser and Pantheon all keeping a lot of iconic elements while also addressing some game health problems. Still some room for improvement. Overall though I think we've avoided some of the issues some past updates have had with unnecessarily redefining major parts of a champion (e.g. Graves no longer being able to be played botlane or Aatrox shifting from a very AA heavy playstyle to a more spell based one).


Thoughts on Worlds Playins so far

At time of writing we're partway through the second day of playins. Some very early thoughts on how the state of the game's looking so far:

  • Pacing's generally where we'd hope it would be in terms of things like amount of early conflict, contestation of objectives and time spent in late game
  • Overall pick variety has been ok given we've only seen a subset of teams play so far. Hoping we don't see Qiyana, Panth and Xayah stay at 100% pick/ban throughout the tournament as teams adapt and the meta evolves. They’re sitting there right now, but still very early on in things overall. Possible we should have taken more power out of them when nerfing each of them in 9.17-9.19, at the same time we didn't want to overswing and leave them in too weak a state to be played either.
  • Seeing some non marksmen get picked bot seems to have been healthy so far, with clear strengths and weaknesses resulting from the choice to do so and interesting play. Not clear how much the meta has settled in that regard though, particularly given some teams assumedly have put more time into practicing non marksmen picks than others. Very interested to see how bot develops over the tournament and hoping we continue to see some moderate class variety, especially if teams also feel they've got options for running marksmen in other lanes instead (or as well) when desired.

http://ddragon.leagueoflegends.com/cdn/6.24.1/img/champion/Ziggs.png

195 Comments

Toπ Senpai10/4/2019, 4:35:24 PM13 votes

What are your current thoughts on Karmas state in soloQ? Her winrate dropped except for Toplane

SupremeVoid10/4/2019, 4:20:58 PM12 votes

VGUs and new champs get better I aggree, excpetions may be Champs like Aatrox but there are also people complaining about the simplicity of champs like updated Mordekaiser.

Also about balance. Kaisa is pick or ban in every pro game for the last cant count anymore months. Please nerf her so other ADCs get played too.

While Ahri is in a somewhat healthy spot balance wise, would you still consider doing an ezreal style VGU for her? A new W and maybe a tweaked passive.

i like wafffles10/4/2019, 5:25:12 PM11 votes

Hey meddler, I really like how most of the VGUs turned out this year .However i do feel like many of the 2018 VGUs missed the mark like with akali and aatrox.I feel like aatrox mains were done the dirtiest with his gameplay changing drastically becoming a spell based champion, like you mentioned in the post. As for akali over the course of changes and mechanic removals like her iconic heal she lost her identity as well becoming a weird bruiser intead of an assasin. And that brings me to the point would you guys ever consider releasing their old kits on a new champions to satisfy both the old and new mains of those champions.I.e for akali you could reintroduce her original kit on her mother.

UPS x ACE10/4/2019, 7:28:15 PM10 votes

-Cohesion between gameplay and theme Aurelion Sol????

-Maintaining Gameplay Identities Aurelion Sol again??? Galio ultimate to protect people as a hero does???? Aatrox revive??????????? Azir range?????????

RuDoKa10/4/2019, 4:18:28 PM10 votes

Where is the music ???

Seiferoth10/4/2019, 4:25:42 PM10 votes

Another 2018 release Counterfeit Swain, You didn't maintain Swain's identity, ignored the original Swain Mains and have had trouble keeping him healthy. I know it's too late and he's dead forever, but thought I'd point it out.

OtterlyLost10/4/2019, 4:21:56 PM7 votes

Hi Meddler, hope you're doing well!

In reference to the new VU and Champions over this past season, I do feel personally that this is one of the stronger ones an agree with most of what you said. Yuumi, in particular, is very polarizing and I do find myself some what sad with the direction that she is going. I would have liked to see her pushed to be rewarded more for interacting with her laning opponents by giving her a lower CD on her bop and block and a higher mana cost on her heal and attached Q instead of seeing the mana portion of her passive removed all together and her heal being buffed.

In general, I would have just liked to see more experimentation with making her interactive by giving her reasons to be aggressive in lane off her laning partner. Maybe even a little bonus damage on her AA that's impowered by Bop and Block.

mark602810/5/2019, 4:06:07 AM7 votes

It's actually crazy how delusional you are about the game.

Stable state of the game?It's an absolute clusterfuck because you absolutely refuse to adress blatantly obvious issues in favor or -5 base damage on akali and calling it a day. Or qiyana +20 seconds cooldown on ult, fixed forever. When all it would take would be to watch one fuckin high elo game to realise how shit this game is.

Yuumi, sylas basically any season 9 champion being a success? They all need to be removed bar maybe morde and pantheon depending on if you can make them feel better to play against but this isn't any of your concern AT ALL.

At this rate no way to ever come back to league nor will league stop bleeding players every months. Seriously i'm absolutely baffled how someone can be so oblivious to the state of the game and keep his job.

Also: Revert swain already.

Silverman4310/4/2019, 4:48:01 PM6 votes

Any thoughts on Maokai? Maokai

He is barely played and that's not only because of most tanks being bad in the current meta. His biggest issues are his passive being unreliable and unfun to play with/against, his current ult feeling lacking and unsatisfying and the need for some QoL changes to his E to make it more reliable.

Me and other Maokai players would really like to further discuss on this topic in a civilized way.

Thanks

Denlee10/4/2019, 4:55:37 PM6 votes

Are there any plans for Taliyah in the future? Thanks for all the work you do!

Karn Bishop10/4/2019, 11:48:07 PM6 votes

You guys broke your promise not to gut a champion because you cannot balance it, shame on you. Competitive can f right off just ban the problematic champions from pro play don't ruin solo queue for it.

Darkin 98110/4/2019, 8:29:48 PM6 votes

Bring back original Aatrox please D:

Shirvallah10/4/2019, 8:51:57 PM5 votes

Can we get a redo on Karma’s VGU? We Karma mains are tired of asking time and time again for even a little love, man... Do you know how AMAZING IN THEORY Karma is? Just THINK of what she could be...if only she was given a chance...

Abyss Watchérs10/5/2019, 1:52:08 AM5 votes

Alright so since you brought it up meddler i have to ask, as a pre rework aatrox player, is there any hope that in some way we will see that version return in a way? I mean it was kinda a slap in the face to us who spent much time effort and even some money on him just to have it taken away. Now im not saying revert him because theres people who love the new style and taking that away will also cause an uproar, but i just want to know if i can ever hope my edgy boy with a sword will return

DCYOUNG88810/4/2019, 4:35:59 PM5 votes

Any news on the ap bruiser item updates?

Kata Ga Kill10/4/2019, 7:40:28 PM5 votes

Pls Nerf Malphite he's disgusting OP with AP item 3089 , its almost a better Katarina with no weakness and better potential to kill someone faster and more effective, with no Counterplay if he presses R.

Also pls revert finaly Katarina Katarina , the new one is garbage, smart Guys just dont walk in the Daggers. Also she need to be buffes because no one in Worlds is picking her....LOL

Predatorator10/4/2019, 5:34:42 PM5 votes

Hi Meddler, happy to see some thoughs on Skarner! With that being acknowledged, is there anything being talked about to solve the spire issues before his VGU? We're running a survey between skarner players, and most popular consensus would be on an ezreal/xin zhao GU. Thank You!

pogcorn10/4/2019, 7:05:26 PM4 votes

bring back old aatrox

Citizen Insane 910/4/2019, 4:23:32 PM4 votes

Hey Meddler,

With Volibear and Fiddlesticks confirmed for VGUs next year, which champions are still in high priority to recieve VGUs in the near future?

Also, how do you feel about Ezreal and Morgana's minor VGUs? Were they a success? Is it something that might return in the future?

Domasis10/4/2019, 5:25:17 PM4 votes

As a person who enjoyed both iterations of Aatrox, why not try to meld the two playstyles?

Is that ever a possibility?

DesuGamer10/4/2019, 6:53:02 PM4 votes

Have you spoken about Karma, just anything?

Praexis10/4/2019, 11:43:40 PM3 votes

Hey Meddler, would there ever be a chance for another darkin champion to be released with a similar playstyle to that of Old Aatrox's? I and many others really miss the Old Aatrox and as much as I enjoy the current one I would still love to see Old Aatrox return in some shape or form.

ChameleonIsHere10/4/2019, 8:42:41 PM3 votes

bring back old aatrox please

edit: seriously we need some answer for aatrox, we are so much player love old game play and old sword please meddler !!!!

Uber Dragon10/4/2019, 8:52:29 PM2 votes

I have to disagree with some of this. Firstly I think Mordekaiser isn't really a good example for a champion that provides enough counterplay. Especially the ultimate make him unbearable leaving players in situations where they go "well, I guess I die :)" way more often than actually giving them a fair shot. Then you go ahead and say you think reworks really paid off for Sion while it didn't do as well for Graves. Quite the opposite is the case. While I agree that Sion in the end has become a better 'Character' as a whole his former unique playstyles have been completely removed from him in the rework and were replaced with a rather generic tank skill set. He's no longer able to play multiple unique roles (AP heavy zoning/AD,attack speed front liner healing all his allies around him) but is rather limited to just one job: being a very generic tank. Yes he checks all the boxes now for doing his intended job, whereas previously he had stuff that didn't work together perfectly, and he looks and sounds way better than before, but overall I'm convinced there was a lot of room to improve him in ways that would suit his former self better while being up to the games higher standards. Graves on the other hand was the exact opposite: He had a strong thematic but his play style was rather boring, being not very distinct from all the other adcs one could choose from. His rework did an amazing job giving him a unique place in the game that no one else could fill while also working perfectly with his thematic.

Bowblax10/4/2019, 10:22:22 PM2 votes

is it possible that one day in the future you could make up for changing Aatrox so much by creating a new champ that is just an improved version of his old kit (bring back his auto attack playstyle, revive, etc.)?

typically I don't mind reworks changing up the old kit in major ways but old Aatrox in particular is a champ that to this day I miss playing. unlike other reworks I feel like Aatrox was essentially removed and replaced rather than updated.

Matemune10/4/2019, 10:57:53 PM2 votes

I really hope you guys do still consider also redoing the Karma GVU with all the current experience. I understand her being the first meant you had alot to learn and not everything went smoothly (especially regarding her identity and of course the shield bomb and shieldbot issue) but still seeing all these VGUs working out I can't help but hope you guys also return to Karma with the experience gained, if not at least to repay the favor of you guys having practiced on her.

Iron Phantom10/4/2019, 11:19:35 PM2 votes

WIll we be seeing more VU's in the coming future? because champions like Vladimir Malphite Riven Tryndamere Darius Rumble Caitlyn and Corki have really outdated models in my opinion.

Impish Yordle10/4/2019, 4:47:17 PM2 votes

Are there more Ezreal-type reworks slated for the future? I remember that quite some time ago you guys told us on Reddit that Kennen, Jax and Blitz were considered good candidates for one in case Ezreal does well but we haven't heard anything about that ever since.

Neverm0re10/5/2019, 12:49:00 AM2 votes

With Sylas in his current state (just a worse Ekko in pro play and utterly annihilated in solo queue to the point that even the best Sylas players are struggling to get to 50% WR on him), when can we expect him to actually be sorted out? I've read about Yuumi changes for the pre-season in a prior reply, but I'd like to know about Sylas. Are there plans to find a role for him to settle into and therefore balance around? If so, which one/s? What about his build path? It can't be healthy to have a champion with the kit of a bruiser building full AP, that'd be like Yorick being balanced around a Duskblade build.
Change after change to balance around professional play has made this stunningly unique and tremendously fun champion pretty much unusable for everyone else even when you know what you're doing. You've made champions with overloaded kits like Camille, Lee Sin and Vi fit into the game before, I have every faith that you'll be able to make Sylas work too. I think I speak for all us Sylas mains when I ask: what's the plan going forward?

Spideraxe10/4/2019, 4:34:12 PM2 votes

Hey Ziggs man, could I ask for your thoughts Inn ekko jg so far at worlds?

Gold Grenade10/7/2019, 8:17:09 PM2 votes

Mordekaiser is legitimately pleasing for me to play, but incredibly easy. He's a stat stick rather than the niche scary champion he started out as. Mage itemization is a bit... odd/too good right now so I think Mordekaiser is actually a lot less strong that he seems and I hope his current state alludes to some very slight mage item nerfs.

The most satisfying thing about Mordekaiser is his autos and the sounds from his kit. Sion desperately needs the same TLC on his auto attacks that Mord has gotten.

CheapSleepyPills10/4/2019, 6:37:09 PM2 votes

No question, just wanted to thank you for these. It is always a fantastic treat to read.

Yordle Gunner10/4/2019, 7:17:51 PM2 votes

Riot, pls update the visual and voice lines of old Yordles. Bring them in line with their classic unifying traits such as ears and faces.

McwhinneyTw10/6/2019, 8:14:37 AM2 votes

Hi Riot Meddler , hope you're doing well [slayer-pantheon-thumbs] What you think about the nerf of Karma ? ...

The goal was to get out Karma from Top right ? Actually she have the same wr that before the nerf But Actually she is not even playable on Midlane .. And a lot of Karma main are playing her on Midlane like me Actually you consider her like a mage , so she can be on Mid too right ?

People were bored to see her playing on Top because she was actually Aatrox hard counter and was bullying a lot of toplaners. So what about nerfing Kleptomancy or her Rmantra + W heal ? You can nerf her armor or things like that But really it's a lot to nerf her Q Ap ratio which is her only source of Damage .. it's really a lot

Bring back Karma on mid ... A lot of karma mains are asking for it Her Winrate continue to drop , no one picks her because she can't win trades against the others mages (Karma is a mage too normally ) like Brand , Zyra , Lux on the Botlane .. It's just sad .. Bring back our Karma Midlane :(

Solari Fortune10/4/2019, 4:18:28 PM1 votes

Hey Meddler

Is the team planning anything regarding mid lane Tristana, I've never quite seen it myself but hear from other people it is rather unfun to play against.

Also when could be a possible timeframe when Pre Season talk begins?