Quick Gameplay Thoughts: February 13

RiotMeddler·Feb 13, 2019·1 votes·147,239 views

Hi folks,

Usual Disclaimers

These posts will often contain talk about future work we're doing, or planning to do, that isn't yet guaranteed to ship. The nature of the work could change or, depending on what we discover, projects mentioned may get delayed or even stopped. If you'd like to see a Tweet whenever a new one of these posts goes up: https://twitter.com/RiotMeddler

Support Item Restrictions

As you might have seen we've just hotfixed some changes to the Ancient Coin and Spellthief's items so that they require a nearby ally to generate gold coins and gold on damage procs respectively. That's in response to rapidly growing use of them in top lane that removes a lot of CSing skill test for the user while offering little counterplay to their opponent. Usually we'd prefer to let emergent strategies play out where we can. Our feeling in this case, as with gold funneling last year, was that the overall result is a less interesting and deep game though, hence the quick response.

Also as per gold funneling we're taking what's admittedly somewhat heavy handed action to quickly fix the problem. Plan is to then look at whether there's a better solution available in the moderate term. With the Monster Hunter debuff for gold funneling for example our initial take was sometimes pretty punishing on junglers who got ahead but didn't want to finish their jungle item. We then made an adjustment later that changed it to account for amount of gold taken from lane minions to target the debuff specifically at problem cases. Goal would be to take a similar approach here if we see unintended issues emerge.

Crit items, their users and marksmen in general post 9.3

We've been watching how things have settled post crit changes in 9.3 for a bit now. Feeling so far is that the changes have landed pretty well overall, without leaving most crit users too strong or too weak. Where we're up to on some specific cases:

Still got Yasuo nerfs planned for 9.4. Current approach is reverting most of the buffs we gave him after midseason's Infinity Edge update since that update's mostly reverted.
We'll also be bringing back the Lucian nerfs we held off on previously while we waited to see where 9.3 landed, in part given he was already strong and crit item buffs are sometimes further power positive for him at 3-4 items.
Unlikely we do anything for Kai'Sa at this point, she seems to be doing pretty well with IE/Hurricane builds. Updating her recommended items so players stop rushing Stormrazor, though.
Want to see where Ezreal sits after some more play before deciding whether he needs nerfs or not.
Looking at a small buff to ER in 9.4, it's in the right ballpark but a bit weak relative to IE.

Spectator Bugs

We'e looking into a couple of categories of spectator bug that have been cropping up a lot recently. Should have more to share on that shortly. 9.4 should have fixes for some issues, still determining whether there's anything not covered by that work though.

http://ddragon.leagueoflegends.com/cdn/6.24.1/img/champion/Ziggs.png

306 Comments

GrandMastrOfCoolFeb 13, 201944 votes

Have you guys considered making AP bruiser/fighter items? Now that Sylas is out and Mordekaiser's VGU is around the corner, I think it would make the most sense to make them soon.

Phroxzon mentioned exploration way back here:

https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/developer-corner/8iZVJvTA-preseason-development-update-1?comment=00000002

RiotMeddlerFeb 13, 201924 votes

The AP bruiser explorations Phroxzon mentions there as slow burn work didn't work out as hoped so that particular project got shutdown. Still agree there's a bit of a hole in itemization for some champs there though. Hoping we get a chance to work on it sometime this year. In the meantime for champs like Sylas who don't have items as well tailored to their needs we'll keep giving them a bit more power in their kits so they're in an appropriate spot balance wise. While that doesn't give other benefits well tailored itemization does (satisfaction, bit more strategic depth etc) it does put them in effective spots at least.

Frosted TipsFeb 13, 201914 votes

But does this not hinder the AP Bruiser Itemization process more? This strategy means the AP Bruisers will be overtuned for when the actually receive the items they deserve.

RiotMeddlerFeb 13, 201914 votes

Champion balance is always dependent on how well other systems (items, summoner spells, runes, objective buffs, allied champions etc) add power to them. If we don't balance around the current ecosystem the alternative is to leave them weak until we get to that work.

Frosted TipsFeb 13, 201911 votes

Ok so, just my point of view, but you are going to balance them around a system that they can't truly be balanced since you see many AP Bruisers forced into building Full Tank or Full AP so then you guys can say that they are fine that way or that "Most of the playerbase plays them that way, so that is their new role," like you have done with Karma, Zyra, and Morgana. Yeah I know they are not bruisers, but once Riot started to force them all to support role and then were surprised that the mains that didn't like the support versions of these champions left them. Then Riot started to balance them around that role even though they were original loved in other roles. but Riot decided, "Nope, you are now this role." This is how it feels with AP Bruisers.

Example, Diana, she is supposed to be a AP Diver and since the itemization is none existent for AP Fighters/Bruisers she is forced to be balanced around a full AP build and is now considered by most an assassin. This is just one example.

VekknaFeb 13, 20195 votes

Is there any reason why an AP trinity (literally Trinity with AP instead of AD) wouldn't fill most of the itemization hole by giving them a rush item? Seems pretty low on cross-class abuse potential as well.

Frosted TipsFeb 13, 20197 votes

That would be ok, but the biggest issue is no Black Cleaver like AP item since AP Bruisers have practically no options for percentage penetration since Void offers no defensive stats and hinders the build drastically.

Slade25Feb 13, 20194 votes

item 3020

Frosted TipsFeb 13, 20198 votes

Yes sacrifice a defensive boot which is practically required on fighters for 18 only 18 flat Magic penetration.

Von BrohenheimFeb 13, 20196 votes

Like Lich Bane? I get that it scales off AP, but if Lich Bane was Sheen + AetherWisp + Kindlegem, gave 20% CDR and health, it could probably get away with having less AP on the item but still be an amazing rush option.

IxtaliKingFeb 13, 201919 votes

Hey Meddler, I was wondering if you're at all concerned with the devisive nature of the upcoming Karma rework?

Many of us feel that the direction taken with her is the total opposite of what we wanted for several reasons:

It favours a burst playstyle. The most of us view Karma as a Battlemage/Enchanter, always has been. We were mad whenever changes occurred which pushed her away from that and now this rework kills her Battlemage identity for good.
The rework picked a side. This rework was opportunity to unify her divided playerbase, but instead dividing it more. There's zero attempt at a compromise and all that says to us is that we're not valued.
It addresses almost none of her issues. The only problem this rework solves is giving her something that isn't currently in the game, which happens to be discarded mechanics from . It attempts to solve RE's issues by discouraging its use on a full team, instead of bringing back shield bomb in some form - like I'm sure you know most of us wanted.

ZaghyrFeb 13, 201917 votes

What are your thoughts on Xayah ? She has been fairly weak for nearly 7 patches now and the ADC changes have done little to help her. Do you have any plans for buffs for her?

Åtvid4LifeFeb 13, 201915 votes

7 patches is quite an understatement. She's been weak since 8.11.

SteelflameFeb 13, 20192 votes

They are buffing ER, a historical rush item for her, so I suspect that they don't want to touch her till ER is buffed.

ZaghyrFeb 13, 20193 votes

I don't think +5 AD is going to do much. Will it make the item better? Yes. Will it feel better to use powerwise? Yes. But, it won't put Xayah back into a good spot, direct changes to her will have to be made to really help her. I do think her WR will go up when the Conqueror rework is released. I have tested it a lot and have had both a lot of fun and success with it. But even then she would still need help.

Frosted TipsFeb 13, 201912 votes

Hey Meddler, I have and idea for Ohmwrecker. What if item 3056 active was a field that disabled traps and pets like Zyra plants and Heimer turrets? It would probably be really strong, but I think that if the size was pretty small if could really help melees lane verse them while also hindering they're build by not offering the greatest stats. I would still like it to work on towers as well. If it were too strong with the disabling of pets then maybe ulted Hiemer turret, The Maiden of the Mist, and maybe ulted Zyra plants would be unaffected. Or some variation of that.

SnowbrandFeb 13, 20199 votes

_Hi Meddler! Are there any plans or thoughts about adding AP bruiser/divers items into the game? _

For me, the addition of Sylas made it obvious that there isn't a lot of good options for champions like Sylas , Mordekaiser , Diana , Rumble and maybe Singed .

AD brusiers/divers have access to item 3078 , item 3071 , item 3161 , item 3053 , item 3748 and other items.

I think these champions would be helped a lot by having acess to AP versions of these items. Right now it is as if AD champions only had access to assassin items and tank items and that would feel pretty bad.

Is it because you are afraid that champions like ekko or fizz could abuse it or is there other reasons? What about then changing base ap and and ap scaling ratios for those potential abusers? Would be interesting to hear yours and Riots stand on this.

Salvor HardınFeb 13, 20198 votes

Anything on Neeko ? Her interaction from the W basic attacks to the towers was broken again in this patch.

I would also like to thank you very much for the changes to RekSai , I think they are very good and well oriented.

RammBorghiniFeb 13, 20197 votes

hi meddler don't you think that tank items needs a bit more health to synegies with cinderhulk better to help tank junglers, even if you have to reduce the resistance cuz with this much true dmg and penetration in the game it feels like wasting gold when buying a tank item with just little health on it or has no HP, and cinderhulk Won't feel so weak compared to warrior and bloodrazor

1nsan1tyyFeb 13, 20194 votes

{quoted}

hi meddler don't you think that tank items needs a bit more health to synegies with cinderhulk better to help tank junglers, even if you have to reduce the resistance cuz with this much true dmg and penetration in the game it feels like wasting gold when buying a tank item with just little health on it or has no HP, and cinderhulk Won't feel so weak compared to warrior and bloodrazor

100% agree, tank items feel pretty rubbish now.

Ars ArcánumFeb 13, 20197 votes

With the change to Crit items as well as the small rework to Stormrazor, isn't it about time Quinn's armor and scaling nerfs from Season 8 were reverted? She's primarily played top, against champs with higher base stats, and even now has a 0.15% pick rate in the bottom lane.

meteorbreakerFeb 13, 20194 votes

I completely agree. She also has one of the biggest death rates in games.

SpideraxeFeb 13, 20196 votes

Hey Meddler can I ask about the Neeko buffs Maple tweeted about last night, I think Repertoir mentioned something about looking into her E but may not make in for 9.4

RiotMeddlerFeb 13, 20196 votes

We're aiming to have a small Neeko buff in soon. More likely to be in 9.5 than 9.4.

Solari FortuneFeb 13, 20199 votes

Will whoever is in charge of such a thing be looking into her W + Tower interaction, seems to have broken again

ModJango MageFeb 13, 20198 votes

Could you please also fix her W passive not procking on turrets? Its been bugged for a while now.

Sir NopeFeb 13, 20196 votes

Is there a reason most AS items are tied to crit chance? I see a few outliers in Nashor's Tooth and Rageblade, but what if a champ just wants to build AS?

ProfDrDeathFeb 13, 20199 votes

AS items tied to Crit:

item 3087 item 3085 item 3094 item 3046 item 3095

AS items not tied to Crit:

item 3153 item 3115 item 3124 item 3091 item 3006 item 1419 item 3078

Most AS items are tied to crit, indeed.

CryoThornFeb 13, 20192 votes

{quoted}

AS items tied to Crit:

AS items not tied to Crit:

Most AS items are tied to crit, indeed.

Remove Stormrazor from the crit list, and move it to the bottom one. It doesn't have any direct connection with Crits anymore.

SteelflameFeb 13, 20195 votes

It does because it is worthless as hell without Rapidfire cannon or Statikk Shiv. If you are not building either of those, ideally while using Fleet Footwork, building Stormrazor is building one of the most inefficient items in the game hands down.

TarcathosFeb 13, 20196 votes

Good Morning Meddler,

In your previous post, questions were being asked about the Karma rework, and you said that you were going to be getting back to those teams to see what was going on. Any word about the Karma changes that were announced these many months ago?

RiotMeddlerFeb 13, 20195 votes

Yeah, I still owe an update there. Will get some comments together, apologies haven't done so yet.

Nameless DrifterFeb 13, 20194 votes

Please take a look at Xerath. His Q bugs out sometimes during the match, getting him stuck in the animation channel without being able to cast the spell.

His abilities mana costs are too high. Either buff his mana pool and mana growth or decrease his mana costs

Mage itemization needs a overall rework and give clear item paths for the AP champions to choose depending on the class of the champion.

Sorceress shoes needs to be nerfed back to 10 Magic Penetration. No AP champion should have a easy access to the highest magic penetration item by only 1100 gold and so early in the game.

Support items are abused by other laners the same way Kleptomancy is. Making them only be triggered when allies are nearby was a good idea, but Kleptomancy also needs to be a more Support Keystone only, than a exploitable rune.

TomiMan7Feb 13, 20195 votes

Sorceress shoes needs to be nerfed back to 10 Magic Penetration.

It was 15 and after they took our 8 magic pen from runes it was added back on sorch shoes and void. Stop complaining and use magic resist runes.

Nameless DrifterFeb 13, 20194 votes

I am aware that it was 15 magic penetration, but at that time we didnt have a first item bursty buy for mages like we have now. Magic resist runes are irrelevant due to their low value.

TomiMan7Feb 14, 20191 votes

You get 1 mr rune and 1 450gold magic resits item, and you completely negate the double flat pen build. Again stop complaining and use ur brain.

Nameless DrifterFeb 15, 20192 votes

It doesnt matter. Its clear that you did not play mages in the Season 7. Assassins could still overkill you if they all-in you and you didnt flash with Morello. Now they have a 90 Ability power item with a passive that adds 100 + extra AP to their damage, with counting Sudden Impact magic penetration bonus.

At Season 7, rushing Negatron Cloack was actually viable. At this moment it doesnt matter, you will still die or you will be seriously behind in itemization and you will be useless the rest of the game. What a great concept!

Also being forced to build a defensive first item in the laning phase is ridiculous and it only shows how unbalanced the game is. You know, no one should just automatically win a laning phase just because they pick a assassin or any other champion no matter the role. The players skill should be the judge and result of who wins or not.

Leaf of the lakeFeb 14, 20194 votes

Regarding the support item changes: The whole problem emerged because support items aren't being credited as income for the bounty system, when in practice, they're a small but existent income source.

I think a significantly cleaner approach would be to count all gold from cs or generated through items as the value used in the "cs -> bounty formula," possibly exempting cull and klepto (so as not to further punish the tradeoffs they make). By counting support item gold, this would effectively add another half-source of gold income to the bounty system via the support line, making the total number of gold sources 4.5, not 4.

With this change in place, if a player tries to circumvent the bounty system by opting out of CS and into a support item, their actual gold contributions are still counted, and the game would correctly see that the opposing team is not drastically ahead.

AhrisFeb 13, 20193 votes

anything Ahri?

Daddy AntsFeb 14, 20197 votes

{quoted}

anything Ahri?

Stop.

Champions fine.

https://lolalytics.com/ranked/worldwide/platinum/plus/champion/Ahri/

AhrisFeb 15, 20192 votes

Adc was also fine but they get major buffs.

Ahri is garbage. Her w need rework, her pqssive need rework, her R needs rework.

Daddy AntsFeb 15, 20194 votes

{quoted}

Adc was also fine but they get major buffs.

Ahri is garbage. Her w need rework, her pqssive need rework, her R needs rework.

Yeah... such a garbage champion.

almost 53% WR

You ahri mains are as delusional as Shaco mains.

Your W and R are bland abilities sure, but power wise your champion is perfectly fine.

7empoDaggerFeb 13, 20191 votes

[deleted]

RiotMeddlerFeb 13, 20195 votes

She's not. We shipped a change back in 9.1 that wasn't patch noted where her W damage was increased slightly. We've been discussing whether to roll that back or not (nerf her relative to her current state) or just leave her as she is.

Jupiter1Feb 13, 20191 votes

{quoted}

She's not. We shipped a change back in 9.1 that wasn't patch noted where her W damage was increased slightly. We've been discussing whether to roll that back or not (nerf her relative to her current state) or just leave her as she is.

Please don't nerf Sivir's W, she is no op champ nor most banned or feared, ban rate is low, which usually means people don't feel she's a champion impossible to win against, she doesn't need a nerf.

Daddy AntsFeb 13, 20193 votes

{quoted}

Please don't nerf Sivir's W, she is no op champ nor most banned or feared, ban rate is low, which usually means people don't feel she's a champion impossible to win against, she doesn't need a nerf.

?????????

She's bat shit op at the moment.

Jinx needs nerfing as well.

Jupiter1Feb 14, 20192 votes

{quoted}

?????????

She's bat shit op at the moment.

Jinx needs nerfing as well.

Sivir is not top 1, not top 2 or 3, not top5, top6, top7, nor top8 she's at #9 at diamond+ with 1.8% ban rate and #12 ban rate @All ranks, also her pick rate is low at 10%, that means u should learn how to counterplay her, not that she needs a nerf, stop asking for a nerf of everything u dislike or don't know how to play against.

ĘsdeathFeb 13, 20196 votes

{quoted}

She's not. We shipped a change back in 9.1 that wasn't patch noted where her W damage was increased slightly. We've been discussing whether to roll that back or not (nerf her relative to her current state) or just leave her as she is.

Wait, wait ... let me get this straight ... did you just directly admit you guys change damage values and people don't even get to see it? Is there any actual reasoning for that? Because it makes no sense at all hiding it from us, and I am sure it isn't the first time.

LossondroFeb 13, 20191 votes

Hey Meddler,

Did the Lissandra nerfs have any effect on her? I don't feel like the nerfs had that much impact (aside from making me unable to do really wacky stuff with glacial path). Is it likely that she'll get nerfed again in the future? I am also wondering whether there is a large difference in performance between aftershock and other keystones, is there a difference? (in low/high elo and proplay).

RiotMeddlerFeb 13, 20198 votes

Q mana and E rank up damage look like they had only light effect, which makes sense given they weren't substantial changes. Not sure yet whether the E visibility change will have a meaningful impact, somewhat harder to assess given impact's mainly expected in really high MMR games.

Her performance with Aftershock's a little better than with other alternatives (Electrocute being the closest from memory). We were confident we should go for the nerfs in 9.3 regardless of Aftershock related arguments in part because even looking at her Electrocute performance she was strong anyway.

Aftershock wise we've been discussing its state a bit. One path we're talking about right now is whether, now that rune stats aren't bound to trees, it still needs to have its AD/AP ratios at all (is it demanding sufficient damage trade off versus tankiness it offers).