Quick Gameplay Thoughts: April 25

Do you know for sure he's not weak right now, or was that just your initial gut feeling? Personally I have felt he lost a fair amount of power since preseason, but I'd be id be interested to know specifically what leads you to think he's good enough right now. Is it his winrate, his presence in high elo, something else?

Also, if base stats are out of the question, could having his Q increasing range by 25-50 be considered quality of life? All the other empowered autos, like Yorick Q and such do that. Letting his Q get full healing from spellvamp would also be nice (seems to be a bug where he only gets a third? Or is it not a bug?)

My only real gripe with R is how heavily it punishes you for taking fights in melee range, even when it's the right decision (and all 3 of your other abilities are only used in melee). Low damage, low CC, and you don't get to pre-charge your mark before engaging. I guess if the mark goes away it won't be quite as bad, but if the mark is here to stay I'd at least like to maybe not have the damage drop off as dramatically. Feels bad when somebody jumps on you and you can't fight them at anywhere near full strength when everything else is melee.

That said, super glad to hear it's on the radar. Thanks!

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We'll likely talk about Fizz at least after mid-season. The W I could see us adjusting potentially. The R power scaling by distance by contrast I think has done good things though (optimal play not being to just use your skillshot point blank as a non dodgeable CC).

The ult mechanic still feels horrible to play as since you're punishing a melee assassin for using his ult at melee range ???

Its like making it so an adc that kites at max range does less damage than normal, it would make no sense to punish optimal play.

Keep the CC effects and size scaling with range, but make the damage flat across every range.

While I kinda disagree with the R power scaling by distance (punishing a squishy melee assassin for being in melee range and making him a Malphite-like ult-bot), reverting the W would be enough for me to play him again, that old spell made him smooth imo.

Why is it a bad thing if Fizz is more dangerous at close range than long range?

Theres no way anybody who's ever played the champion could ever say they like what the R has done to the champion, is no thought at all given to the satisfaction of actually playing the champion? it is purely illogical for a melee assassin to be punished for fighting in melee range, there are other things that could be done to address the undodgeable fish like a lockout during Q so you cannot buffer R during Q, please just completely revert him, he was a perfectly fine champion before with clear strenghts and weaknesses and a logical power curve, super weak early powerup as the game progresses rather than piss poor early, strong mid, piss poor late.

On the other hand though, does it not reduce his options and make gameplay patterns more binary? It's not very fun when your main option boils down to having to use ult from long range to initiate your all ins every time, going in if you hit and just never going in at all if it misses. By not allowing him to use it melee range you limit his options for actually using the rest of his kit in a creative way, and instead you're just left with ulting first and then using the rest of his kit for burst damage during the knockup. It's less interactive for both parties this way, as playing against it also becomes trying to dodge a skillshot every minute, and if you dodge or get hit by that one skillshot determines if you die or not.

Has it ever come up to possibly remove the ability to cast ult during Q?

It's the same as Leblanc. Wait X number of seconds before you're allowed to deal damage.

Unlike Leblanc, Fizz can "cheat" it somewhat by either throwing ult first to pre-charge the timer, or just using E to stall for time. But both of those have the side effect of making him extremely linear from the player's perspective. Whereas before you weren't constrained and could use more varied combos. It was just more fun to play and as you say, the opposing player probably doesn't notice any difference so it's not like it helped in that department.

Sry for ask this but... There will be some change to her ap ratio? Right now Support and Mid zyra are suffering for the lost of Magic pen from their item and runes <---. I liked the W cd refound on minion last hit but i think zyra right now need something that reward her for getting ap. Also any change to push brand or vel'koz into mid lane? I think brand damage is too overloaded early game (need some shift from base to ap scaling) while vel'koz is pushed as support instead of mid lane (maybe some work on his W?).

Is there an idealist that we could give feedback on? Like i realized some of the feedback/ideas i gave earlier didnt actually solve it completely and Im down to help. And I want to be sure its actually fixed when its her turn.

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I need to catch up with the team about Garen this morning. We want to add some power to him, it's unlikely what was on the PBE yesterday is exactly what we go for though. In particular pushing Tenacity that high, especially when combined with other sources, makes it functionally CC immunity that lies to opponents about what it is.

Thanks for your reply I really appreciate, I just hope that Garen will finally have something to be viable in high elo.

Hi Meddler - I'm one of the Garen players who reached Masters this season. I really would like to suggest that if you're still looking for minor work on Garen, I'd highly recommend starting with some QoL work on his kit. Nasus can stack infinitely but when he kills a champion/large monster/turret he gets double stacks. I really feel like Garen should get a similar treatment. One big deterrent in the experience of playing Garen is having to prioritize farm so when it's great encouraged to make high-impact teleport plays early, or roam with Q, Garen has to often sacrifice a few minion waves which are much more valuable to him than the average toplaner. Granting double W stacks in a similar fashion would allow Garen players to feel better about grouping earlier.

Also, I talk with a large amount of people who are trying to make Garen jungle work, however having absolutely no passive pre-level 11, really hurts him. Would it ever be considered to keep his passive on in the jungle, but reduce it to 25%-50% effectiveness? Just a thought, seeing as the balance team once made changes to allow Nasus to jungle (even though we rarely see it). This will definitely help Lane Garen as well, if he wants to possibly take Gromp or Krugs while avoiding being at a wave placed near the enemy turret without flash, etc.

Also, Trinity Force as you may or may not know has been picked up by many Garen players who wish to build more offensive. Black Cleaver isn't seen too often as many Garen players wish to capitalize on personal power vs team utility. What would benefit a Garen split-push would be the ability to cancel his spin sooner so he could cycle through Spellblade proc's easier while hitting a tower. Garen's spin can be cancelled early right now, however it currently isn't worth to cancel in its current iteration because in order to cancel it early, means having to sacrifice 3-auto attacks typically lategame, thanks to base attack speed scaling and Trinity Force on top of that.

Lastly - would your team ever consider splitting his W active into 2 charges? I believe you're aware that W is the ability that has struggled the most with "oomph" in the past. It's power budget is a great faction around 6 seconds lategame. Instead of making a massive tenacity window on 1 0.75 second windows, I think what could be much interesting is making Garen's W have two charges with each having a 0.75 second window with around 50% tenacity. Each charge could have 2-3 seconds total of damage reduction, but would raise the skill cap of Garen even more when maneuvering in teamfights. Make executing the Villain grant a charge possibly if your team is even daring.

I don't know what the exact vision of how you and your team want to keep Garen, but I'm certain you all aware that us long time Garen mains would love to express our mastery with more skill-expression, leading to more rewarding situations.

Thank you for reading, and thanks for the effort you make to connect with us. :)

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I need to catch up with the team about Garen this morning. We want to add some power to him, it's unlikely what was on the PBE yesterday is exactly what we go for though. In particular pushing Tenacity that high, especially when combined with other sources, makes it functionally CC immunity that lies to opponents about what it is.

Has the team considered doing away with the villain mechanic? It's very unsatisfying to use and to be on the receiving end. There have been times when a villain isn't even chosen because a teammate hasn't died in the last five minutes, and (depending on the team compositions) reaching the villain in a team fight isn't always possible. Maybe if they do away with the mechanic, Garen can get some AD ratios on his ultimate because currently the ability only scales when you put points into it as it is gated by the gimmicky villain mechanic.

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I need to catch up with the team about Garen this morning. We want to add some power to him, it's unlikely what was on the PBE yesterday is exactly what we go for though. In particular pushing Tenacity that high, especially when combined with other sources, makes it functionally CC immunity that lies to opponents about what it is.

Hey Meddler, as a Garen one trick I think Garen needs some power for his poor early game, especially vs Tanks Garen is a juggernaut he is supposed to beat tanks.. so %hp Dmg on his e would be pretty good and removing the cast time of his Q, inreasing his dmg per level, his passive is useless pre 11..

Hey Meddler,another Diamond Garen main over here, i would like to add to Riste's comment and mention how frustrating the villian Mechanic can be sometimes.

1. it doesnt update when your recent ally is killed.
2. it changes after a random amount of time(affecting no plan/ timing based fights).
3. the Ult itself is bugged at times, if the enemy flashes out while youre in rhe animation(sometimes it hits and sometimes it doesnt) this is insanely frustrating to play with. while the changes are appreciated fully,i believe Garen should have a 'skilled based Carry mechanic' for example Darius and his reset mechanic. A possibility would be that Garen empowers Allies after he kills the Villian( the buff can be discussed) this would not only help skilled Garen's have a win condition, but also help with Garen's identity in the game.

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I need to catch up with the team about Garen this morning. We want to add some power to him, it's unlikely what was on the PBE yesterday is exactly what we go for though. In particular pushing Tenacity that high, especially when combined with other sources, makes it functionally CC immunity that lies to opponents about what it is.

Another Garen player here. I would like to add that the Villain mechanic (currently) serves no major purpose for Garen until late game. In the average game, the majority of villains will be the ADC, Mid or Jungle which are all far removed from Garen and top lane. So, in order for the villain mechanic to have any use during or shortly after the laning phase would be to roam; promoting a jungle Garen instead (which Garen is not designed for like Rengar or other jungle champions). If Garen left top to chase down the Villain, he would leave top exposed to be won by the opposing top player.

The villain mechanic doesn't help if I (Garen) am losing top lane since Garen deaths do not count towards who are deemed the Villain. The only way my opposing top player is the Villain is if they roam and kill my team (getting stronger and ahead with gold) and/or are fed by bad junglers or mids.

Additionally, the Villain mechanic telegraphs who Garen would pursue in team fights. Without any forms of cc or quick mobility aside from a small 1-2 second speed boost, Garen is easily kited or overwhelmed before he can reach the Villain target.

I know the Villain mechanic was introduced to strengthen Garen with the "juggernaut" champion update; but the others received a boon that is usable throughout the entire game that meshed well with their kits; not in one or two seconds in a thirty to forty minute game. The idea and theme of Garen fighting the Villain is awesome, it's just too far from the player's control to be reliable.

Garen is in a place where his abilities, stats and metas are pulling him in opposing roles that he ends up not doing well as his contemporaries in said roles.

Are you looking to make the jungle easier or harder? Will there be changes to junglers themselves?

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Some crit item impacting changes (it's mainly IE/ER) will be in 8.11. They'll be on the PBE from 8.10 onwards, but will be there for two patch cycles for extra testing and feedback rather than the usual one.

Changes have considered melee crit users, at present we don't have any proactive changes (buff or nerf) in place for them though. Current plan is to see where they land and add or remove power as needed (don't think they'll be too out of line either way).

Thanks for the answer !