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Quick Gameplay Thoughts: May 17

RiotMeddler··1 votes·137,250 views

Hi folks,

Usual Disclaimers

These posts will often contain talk about future work we're doing, or planning to do, that isn't yet guaranteed to ship. The nature of the work could change or, depending on what we discover, projects mentioned may get delayed or even stopped. If you'd like to see a Tweet whenever a new one of these posts goes up:


Simple ARAM balance changes every few patches

As you might have seen we had some simple balance adjustments for ARAM in 9.10. Our current thinking is that that's something we'll be doing every few patches. Changes will be simple stuff like % damage up or down, with one of the core goals being that a champion's playstyle, timings etc don't change significantly between maps (e.g. avoiding changes to spell CDs, CC durations, dash ranges etc).


State of some champs in 9.10

Now that 9.10 has been out for a bit short thoughts on a range of champs:

  • Yuumi

Was looking weak enough on release we got a micropatch buff out for her quickly. Waiting to see where that puts her in combination with the expected learning curve. Most likely we'll hold off until making any other changes this week at least then reassess after the weekend.

  • Yi

Looks a bit weaker in average skill games and a bit weaker again in high skill games. Increasing the delta between his performance in those two contexts wasn't a goal so we're monitoring how that goes. Want to give it a bit of time to see how players adapt to the changes though before making any assumptions, given a number of optimizations have changed.

  • Rageblade Users

Generally don't seem to have been excessively affected by the changes from what we've seen so far. Kog's probably the most impacted, but even then's still doing reasonable. Not immediate compensation changes planned as a result.


Wukong Changes on PBE

Thanks for the feedback so far on the Wukong changes that hit PBE earlier this week. Overall perception seems to be positive, seeing some good suggested areas for improvement too. Will likely be a revised version on PBE sometime next week as a result.

As a reminder these changes are a prototype, not something that could be ready to go live shortly. They'll be on PBE for around 4 weeks, then they'll be taken off and we'll figure out whether to commit to making a more polished version of them or not.

175 Comments

Wukong Airlines9 votes

Hey Meddler,

I have tested the Wukong changes, and so far this is my opinion on the changes:

  1. I don't see how Wukong is being shifted to become a Bruiser when the changes are shifting him from Caster to AA dependent.

  2. Survivability problem is still there. and it's still dependent on 3+ enemies, which makes him less of a bruiser in lane, even in teamfight, stats doesn't make a bruiser anymore, rather, shields/heals/AOE sustain [look Riven Aatrox Darius Illaoi etc] + the fact that Penetration exists makes the passive even weaker.

  3. Heal is terrible, my opinion [we dont need heal, we want something that can block % of damage for lane trading], or a shield.

4)I don't consider Wu a trickster:

  1. 1 Clone is not enough, and the "S" stop command doesnt give you much potential to outplay anyone specially if they can AOE mash their keyboards to deny the outplay [Aatrox Riven ..]
  2. Tricksters are assasins, with huge outplay potential and mobility [checkLeblanc an dash 2 times, and go back to same spot 2 timesShaco stealth that works as gap closer/dodge skillshots, W can trap/trick enemies, R can outplay any incoming damage]
  1. Wu lost a lot of damage, and doens't have any source of reliable [hybrid damage/true damage/ % damage] that would allow him to sacrifice building damage and go for defensive items, even with the 20% armor shred on his Passive, its still bad, since he lost 10% comparing to the previous Q

  2. Now you save W in hopes you deal damage in case someone tried to duel, cant work as an assassin or you will lose high damage output, cant be sneaky anymore [part of why he's not a trickster atm]

  3. No CC at all, you cant contest with bruisers who can Riven stun-knockyou up, Aatrox many knockups and zoning spell, Jax deny AA damage which W is heavily reliable on right now, and stun you, etc, All what wu got now is 1 second knockup on lvl 6.

Do you know exactly what might change in Wukong's kit next week? and is there a possibility to shift wukong from bruiser to assassin and make him more like a trickster, by voting at least.

Señor Hot Buns10 votes

Don't say 'we'. Lot of us Wukong mains love the changes so don't group us all with you.

Blukachu3 votes

Yeah i think a lot of Wu mains have a similarish reaction to the changes so far with a vouple of changes coming up frequently... but none of them are what this guy is saying.

Eleshakai7 votes

Speaking of ARAM....

Is there ANY chance of you guys reconsidering not keeping ARAM bans?

The game mode became dramatically less satisfying after having bans and losing them. Bans made the game mode more fun in so many ways.

Chubbles5 votes

Morning Meddler!

Do you guys have any other plans to open up supports in the pro scene bot lane outside of tanky supports like Braum and Kench? I know you guys make some nerfs a while ago but seems like pros are still just picking tanks. (Assuming I don't have my patches out of order and the nerfs are on a patch after MSI)

RiotMeddler15 votes

Unless things have changed since I last talked with the team the angle we've been working on a bit and will potentially push further on is making it so pro teams are more able to pick tanks in other roles. Our feeling is that a lot of what drives pro teams to focus support tanks so hard is a clear desire for a tank on the team and difficulties picking them in other positions.

The Yetii Rider2 votes

It's...a noble goal, to be certain, but how on earth are you going to accomplish it? No one wants to play a tank in the top lane with Conqueror running wild and Teleport being nerfed. And if you play a tank in the jungle you're risking falling behind in the early game which can turn a win into a loss at that level.

Admittedly, I'm not a pro player, but I'm fairly certain if the current climate was attractive to tanks, people would play tanks. So it seems like once again this is going to be a situation of you changing the game for all players specifically to change how pro players choose their team comps? Again?

Strwbry Kouhai5 votes

Hi! Do you know if you guys are considering doing anything to Twisted Treeline? I know it's playrate doesn't really warrant too much attention, but maybe if it was more balanced or updated, more people would play it too!

BITEZ ZA DUSTO5 votes

G'day Meddler, any love or news at all about our girl Syndra ? The proposed W changes or the bug fixes?

Zackiskip4 votes

i had heard a rumor that ryze might get reverted because his pre rework was easier to balance than the current rework do you have any knowledge on this information.

RiotMeddler17 votes

There's some Ryze experimentation going on at present, cautiously optimistic it'll be worth shipping at least some of it. Wouldn't call it a revert though and don't think we've got any reason to believe past versions of Ryze were more balanceable even if his current state has issues too.

Lore24 votes

How do you determine if a champion is unbalance able?

Didn't the first iteration of ryze of decent winrates for periods of time without being OP?

RiotMeddler6 votes

By seeing whether we can put them in a position where they're a reasonable choice some of the time, rather than always or never picked. Doing so for any given level of skill's pretty doable, some kits aren't well suited to being balanced for multiple contexts though, Ryze being a prime example. Our goal is for champs to be at least ok picks across all skill ranges.

Not certain which version you're referring to by first iteration. Earliest Ryze I've got familiarity with for example was the beta one where he'd kill you by just waiting in brush and casting R alone at level 6. Guessing that's not the one though...

F O R F I T Z2 votes

{quoted}

By seeing whether we can put them in a position where they're a reasonable choice some of the time, rather than always or never picked. Doing so for any given level of skill's pretty doable, some kits aren't well suited to being balanced for multiple contexts though, Ryze being a prime example. Our goal is for champs to be at least ok picks across all skill ranges.

Not certain which version you're referring to by first iteration. Earliest Ryze I've got familiarity with for example was the beta one where he'd kill you by just waiting in brush and casting R alone at level 6. Guessing that's not the one though...

Hello Meddler! I just want kick off this post by saying I had around 2k + games on Ryze pre 2016 rework, after his last major update my enjoyment for this champion slowly dwindled away.

Now the issues stemmed from the poke-to-click burst mage aspect of his kit, Ryze should have NEVER got a "complete" rework however he did, and now he is just a living meme amongst the community. Riot somehow turned a learning champion into one of the most complex champions in League of Legends, what I could not understand was if Annie can exist in 2019 why can't pre 2016 Ryze? Obviously there was many issues with Ryze's old kit I cannot argue that one, however he had this unique experience that I will never forget.

Now I'm just going to throw out some suggestions of how Riot could have maybe balanced his old design.

#1 - Make Ryzes (Q) have stacks, each stack adds extra damage towards (R) desperate power similar to Nasus Q.

#2 - Remove point to click snare, replace with skill shot snare (?) I'll leave blank for design team to figure out.

#3 - flux? Ok! the new flux wasn't a bad idea, to spread you need to re-cast (makes senses) I can actually see this part working into Ryzes old kit.

Now the Issues I had with the rework Ryze were his ultimate, it's situational and it really can only be used in though's rare games, his learning curve is obviously way to overwhelming for any new player and I cannot see many of them wanting to learn or fully master his kit.

If I had a time machine, and I could rewind back the clock to season 4 and only play in that time era I would. Heimerdinger

I'm always open to further discussion in the future if Riot ever needs a veteran players input towards Ryze.

FoRFiTz

Theorex2 votes

So will the Ryze Mains get to test it out? I would love to see what you come up with. Seeing as how I just recently got my 1M mastery on him lol. All with this version too

DeadUnborn4 votes

Know you can't comment on it but my guess is Ult is being changed? That is by far the biggest contirbutor to Ryze not being balanceable for coordinated play vs regular.

If Ryze's mini rework is able to ship and well recieved, yould you be willing to at some point give a go to other champions like Kalista who aren't playable in regular play because of how much they benefit from mixed identities/coordinated play? (Galio, Azir come to mind, as well as Tahm being now pushed to Top from his support role)

Sir Nope4 votes

With Wukong and Diana getting experimented away from their bursty live forms with varied success, as well as RiotAugust's twitter post regarding one-shot champs, I wanted to ask about assassins in general.

What is desired to have the most power in an assassin's kit: the assassin's ability to go in or the assassin's ability to get out?

RiP Cupcake Kid4 votes

Any comment on Udyr, is there any plans to change him?

G Master Hung3 votes

I sure hope not

SpaceAids4204 votes

Regarding ARAM balancing,

Can you guys take a look at Kaisa AP Kai'sa? With W max she literally half-health's people across the map, even with the poke reduction passive. And it's no fun to play against, because she hides behind her team two screens away spamming W. If Lux and Xerath are going to get dmg nerfs, so should she.

Kaisas2 votes

Kaisa W is on a 20 second CD & requires at least 4 items to do anywhere near that damage.. Kaisa is really weak atm

Daddy Ants2 votes

{quoted}

Kaisa W is on a 20 second CD & requires at least 4 items to do anywhere near that damage.. Kaisa is really weak atm

Kai'Sa is not weak.

She's still one of the top tier ADC's.

Daddy Ants4 votes

Can we please consider removing or heavily nerfing item 3161

I've had enough of seeing Jax and Renekton's go 0/2 + in lane, finish this item then start obliterating everyone at 1 item.

Altarious3 votes

Hi Meddler, first of all i know Ryze is delicated topic considering his presence in pro-play but, do you think he needs any changes done to his Kit or do you have any changes planned for him? Thank you.

DeathBurst3 votes

Quick question, it seems that a Pyke-style indicator has been added to Cho execution threshold, in addition to the Garen-style indicator he already had.

Last time indicators have been evoked (with Pyke release), Rioters said that Urgot could get one (and he did a couple months later), but that the tension of when to ult exactly was an important skill test for Darius and Cho, and so they wouldn't get a Pyke-style indicator.

So...

  1. What has changed about that, and why did Cho get one now?
  2. Could other champs get one too? Garen and Darius of course jump to mind, but also things like Riven or Veigar?

Bonus question: why wasn't this change documented in Patch notes and apparently wasn't detected on PBE?

RiotMeddler8 votes

Cho's always had an exact execute indicator, so we weren't as concerned about adding it here, the difference being degree of clarity.

Darius for example we're still much more hesitant to give this level of information to, with estimating your damage output being a skill test there as you describe.

Not sure why this got missed from patch notes. PBE wise would expect it was there but wasn't picked up on by 3rd party sites like S@20 because it's not the sort of change their automated tools are built to detect. Stuff like that sometimes sits there undiscussed as a result.

DeathBurst4 votes

the difference being degree of clarity.

That is technically true, but the difference is so big that it enables a lot of stuff. With the old indicator, you can't know if you're 10 HP above the threshold, or 500 HP above. The new style of indicator let's you see HOW FAR you are from the threshold and plan a Flash-W-R combo that will be just enough, which is information the old style indicator wasn't providing.

Also you didn't mention what changed in the current situation. Why did Cho receive this change now, and not at the same time as Urgot a few months ago?

Kadexe3 votes

If you're investigating ways to fix Master Yi's 'delta', then please read my post on the subject. Thank you for your time.

https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/VW7XTfbA-tackling-the-master-yi-problem

MalrothDragonia3 votes

Hey Meddler, the Teemo experimental changes have been on PBE for a while now, are you able to share any thoughts or status updates on how you're feeling about the changes? Are they likely to go through?

RiotMeddler11 votes

Good point, we should share some thoughts there. I'll track down the designer working on them, get something into a post for next week.

Galiö3 votes

Just up extra early today or did you watch MSI?

RiotMeddler31 votes

These days I get up whenever my daughter decides to wake up (newborn). Figured I'd just put the post up early as a result.

Her waking up early was real convenient for MSI though must admit, even if I missed the first game. For anyone who hasn't watched the BO5 yet it's well worth a look.

AIQ3 votes

Shyvana is on the rework list, but even if she was to win, (which I doubt unfortunately and you most likely already know the result)...

...can she still get her Elder dragon scaling since it's still in 2020 and these are small QOL changes.

Also can she gain fury while dead since shes the only champion that can't get her ult cooldown while dead.

And lastly for her W, can we remove the decay and change the scaling more in favor for then AD/bruiser Shyvana?

Thanks

cùm dumpster3 votes

Any thoughts on buffing Yuumi's auto attack range so she can proc her passive without getting almost killed?

RiotMeddler6 votes

We're pretty cautious with things that give Yuumi more safety given just how evasive her attach can make her when played well. We've seen extremely powerful versions of Yuumi, even with lower AA range, in internal testing, so would be hesitant to add that to her. Not saying it's impossible, wouldn't be the first time we've thought something was much stronger than it was off limited sample size. It's something we've thought about though certainly and wouldn't want to act on too quickly.

Busa3 votes

Hi, kinda unrelated but can we get some more emote slots? Seems like it'd be easy just to make more slices on the pie wheel to assign more emotes.

ModAcademy Kayn3 votes

Since we've been seeing a whole lot of these kinda low-scope reworks (Malph, Blitz, Teemo, Wukong), I'm kinda curious what the ideas/plans were for the similar kind of Yasuo changes ya'll had planned months ago, but ended up dropping for not hitting the mark. Is that something possible to share or nah?

hyperherb3 votes

Is anything planned for Udyr ?

Tyberius113 votes

Meddler there was a lot of backlash on the suggested Zac reverts planned please address this as we think the press vs. hold Q and R can work as a resolution. It makes him more flexible (pun intended), and fits his playstyle. And if that doesn’t work then make his E CC longer at max charge.

Hello, When we will see Nexus Blitz again? I tought you will give it in this patch... Its so long time without our lovely Nexus Blitz! 2 months? lol

Actually, the thing what was making Nexus Blitz so enjoyable is that how dynamic and short game was (simillar to URF), and these random events. IMO Nexus Blitz was the first ever gamemode with pure fun gameplay - no competitive. First time I experienced that feel while first URF was published. But still NB is giving more fun for more time than URF what was nice but not for too long, after some time URF is boring because of seeing the same OP broken champs again and again. Please guys, lest do something and add again finally this awesome mode, IMO its the best gamemode released since 2013!!! Lets let it grow!

rRefluxX2 votes

Riot Zhanos said that the Diana changes will be reverted, except for the Q, as larger changes, with more time alloted, will give much better results. Does this mean we won't see anything for Diana for a very long time again, or will the project continue soon with more time spent on her?

Côco Atrevido2 votes

Hey Meddler, have you guys thought on bringing back the old Stormrazor passive, on other item (maybe Essence Reaver)? It synergizes well with some champions, especially GP. It feels bad to build 3 crit items, with no pen, and the your barrel doesnt crit. Old stormrazor made GP so much enjoyable. Thanks

SAMASAL2 votes

Any Love for Shyvana the forgotten dragon?

Emosa2 votes

Hey Meddler!

I play a lot of aram. I like to stay up to date on the various buffs / nerfs you all roll out. As far as I'm aware, they're not listed anywhere other than the patch notes / blogs. Would it be possible for us to get a status effect we could hover over in game, or a centralized location where we can view all the current aram specific changes? It's annoying to have to hunt down individual posts to double check stuff, and it's a problem that's only going to get worse as time goes on.

Leitch2 votes

Hey Meddler.

Not sure if this is the place to ask about it, but what are the odds of helping Diana get back into the jungle with the recent changes we've been seeing floating around for her? Not specifically something that would put her there exclusively, but maybe making her E deal damage and have additional stun time on monsters. Or letting her "E" stack her passive fully allowing for empowered AA -> E -> empowered AA.

RekSai CoffeeCo2 votes

(https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-m8-KuNv8_eQ/XL3cjkyGxiI/AAAAAAABRxU/MceUiD3aDVg8d74CTlD8cJCbm5Snaj_jgCLcBGAs/s316/rotating%2Bgame%2Bmode%2B3.jpg)

There is no reason at all why there can't be a gamemode running all the time. The burnout excuse isn't a reason as there are people who only play aram, treeline and RGM only and don't touch what you call Summoner's rift, refusing to have a gamemode up is just throwing money away and losing population that you could have.

Daddy Ants4 votes

[{quoted}](name=RekSai CoffeeCo,realm=NA,application-id=A7LBtoKc,discussion-id=9UMWVpWJ,comment-id=0065,timestamp=2019-05-18T12:04:41.443+0000)

(https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-m8-KuNv8_eQ/XL3cjkyGxiI/AAAAAAABRxU/MceUiD3aDVg8d74CTlD8cJCbm5Snaj_jgCLcBGAs/s316/rotating%2Bgame%2Bmode%2B3.jpg)

There is no reason at all why there can't be a gamemode running all the time. The burnout excuse isn't a reason as there are people who only play aram, treeline and RGM only and don't touch what you call Summoner's rift, refusing to have a gamemode up is just throwing money away and losing population that you could have.

BRING

BACK

NEXUS

BLITZ

You can't begin to imagine how much I miss Nexus Blitz.

ArchangelLegion2 votes

Hey there. I have played a bit of yuumi and here are some of my thoughts after that.

Yuumi W does not make her untargetable from projectiles that are already in flight. It is key for her playability, for her to be able to hide from incoming damage jumping onto allies. Additionally her shield disappears from her once she attaches causing an issue with this combo. So if yuumi detaches to AA and gets a shield and instantly W to an ally once she attaches her shield gets transferred to the ally and she eats the damage from all the projectiles that the enemy fired at her. And i dont mean towers. I mean all those projectiles that she supposedly should become untargetable to.

Also yuumi needs to be able to cancel her R as there are times that yuumi miss-aligns her R and there is no point in staying unable to throw the Q or AA.

Additionally yuumi Q needs to have the projectile start slightly away form the ally and not directly under their feet as in many occasions if an ally is standing close to a minion yuumi can't fire her Q in any direction or it will straight hit the minion.

There is also an issue with her idle animation when attached. When that happens it makes the player unable to use any animations ctrl 1 2 … until detached.

Also potentialy yuumi might need to get some range on her detatch and a increased speed at wich she detaches into an AA as well as additional 50 to 100 range on her passive AA.

But the most important one that i mentioned is obviously the first one with her W. Is that intentional? cause it looks rly bad and it got me killed quite some times (and with that killed my ally too).

Ałice1 votes

Still waiting for an update on Zac's revert. Are you ok with current changes? or have more plans?

RiotMeddler2 votes

No changes in thinking since the post earlier this week here on the Dev Corner.

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