Quick Gameplay Thoughts: September 7

RiotMeddler·Sep 7, 2018·1 votes·158,325 views

Hi folks,

Usual Disclaimers

These posts will often contain talk about future work we're doing, or planning to do, that isn't yet guaranteed to ship. The nature of the work could change or, depending on what we discover, projects mentioned may get delayed or even stopped. If you'd like to see a Tweet whenever a new one of these posts goes up: https://twitter.com/RiotMeddler

Pyke Indicator and other champs

As mentioned in an Ask Riot post a little while back we've been considering adding an indicator like Pyke has to some other execute abilities. Current plan is to do so for some execute abilities, but not all. Abilities where judging the threshold isn't a core part of the abilities skill check should be good fits for an indicator (e.g. Urgot ult). On the other hand abilities where a really significant part of the skill expression is in gauging the reset we'll likely keep in their current form (e.g. Darius ult).

In terms of when we'll add those, first up will be Urgot, in 8.19. We're looking to do just one initially as a check on whether this adds meaningful power to a champion or not. Assuming that goes well we'll then look at other cases to do shortly after (Cho ult and Garen ult against villains are likely choices, given they've already got indicators which just aren't as clear as Pyke's).

Smite as a default in matchmade games in 8.18

In patch 8.18 we'll be making it so, if you're put into a lobby in the jungle position for any map, you'll have Smite automatically put in as one of your summoner spells if you don't already have it. You'll be free to swap which key it's on, or even replace it with another Summoner Spell entirely (this isn't like Nexus Blitz where Smite's mandatory for those queued as jungle). Goal of the change is to avoid cases where someone wants Smite but forgot to take it, not change Summoner Spell usage at all otherwise.

Nexus Blitz Alpha

Nexus Blitz's alpha test run comes to an end next week when patch 8.18 goes out. We'll then pore over all the data and feedback we've gathered to figure out what next steps for it should be. We'll let you folks know what our thinking is as soon as we've got a concrete plan to share. From a process perspective can say this style of experimental mode on the live servers has been really helpful for us, so regardless of where Nexus Blitz ends up I expect we'll try another public prototype someday.

http://ddragon.leagueoflegends.com/cdn/6.24.1/img/champion/Ziggs.png

278 Comments

ShaianSep 7, 201834 votes

Hey Meddler, its 9 Months since you tried to bring Morgana and Zyra to Midlane. Both failed and made them worse on that role than they were before. Morg is getting a VGU, are you considering as a Midlaner as well? And what about Zyra?

Pokemonred200Sep 7, 20185 votes

Morgana's succeeded in bringing her to viability in both midlane and jungle, but did so a little bit too well. Riot had to gut her passive's scaling to bring her back in line, which after the item changes just made her a support again :/ I think if they take a stab at her again, they'll have to either look at something else in her kit or give her a bit of that scaling back.

Evil Bisex PlantSep 7, 201812 votes

Zyra is never going to be okay unless her spells no longer allow enemies to just walk out of them before they deal damage while also CCing her while she's trying to cast them.

I was a midlane Zyra main since my debut in League in S4 and in this season I finally lost my nerves. I mained her until Swain's release (cuz he dresses the exact way I do IRL). She just feels so hopeless, you need to rely 100% of the time on enemies just not knowing they can oneshot you while you are waiting for E to fire - and every assassin can do that before the Deadly Spines explode and deal damage, let alone the rest of your combo. That or you are any other mage in the game and you effectively outrange her.

She works in the support role well just because there's another character to focus - when you are solo, your plants die to every random dot or a minion attack and then Zyra is weaker than a cannon minion, literally, you will lose a fight against it.

Also the bug that makes plant not attack enemies when switching agro does not help, not that it would matter anyway because the damage from them is laughable compared to any other DoT in the game.

Edit: Also Heimer exists.

Sharpest glassesSep 7, 201819 votes

What's the plan for MonkeyKing ?

pepetecabalgaSep 7, 20185 votes

I hope a rework to not make him as linear as he is right now.

Sharpest glassesSep 7, 20183 votes

I would like too. He feel too weak since nerf :

His ganks are so weak pre 6 and just meh post 6 (its worse than ever)
his clear's still meh
his lane's trash

Reworking him would make him less unfair for ennemy and better for wuplayers.

Râmmus BotSep 9, 20182 votes

Is that why he can 100-0 anyone one i see him play against then right after he combos he goes invisible and walks away. Then repeats that process over and over again. Linear? sure. Weak? hell no.

Sharpest glassesSep 9, 20184 votes

your normal games experience are irrevelant.

100-0 anyone one i see him play against then right after he combos he goes invisible and walks away.

lel. They're is a big issue if Wukong can walk to you without using his decoy. He's definitly weak.

MirfallSep 7, 201815 votes

Please Meddler talk a little bit about Zyra. Her plants AI are so bugged, they don't attack and just stand there. Plus their HP changes some patches ago was such a big mistake imo.

brb suckin DSep 7, 20186 votes

{quoted}

Please Meddler talk a little bit about Zyra. Her plants AI are so bugged, they don't attack and just stand there. Plus their HP changes some patches ago was such a big mistake imo.

Ikr! I played her twice in ARAM yesterday and I felt literally useless because the plants were not targeting anyone, they literally stood there and died. I thought it was some kind of new mechanic recently added, but I can't find anything on the patch notes so it must be a bug.

KaoriSep 7, 20182 votes

It's a new mechanic indeed, and there was a patch note about it. Due to her being too oppressive botlane without any downside, you have to auto the target and then plants will focus it.

MirfallSep 7, 20188 votes

No. Plants stand there even when they're facing minions, and this has not happened last patches. Plants don't focus champions if there are minions around unless you target the champions. Have you ever played Zyra xd?

Piri SenseiSep 7, 201812 votes

Hey meddler!

What happened to item 3151 's buffs?

Support 4 LyfeSep 7, 201812 votes

Ok, can we talk about Zyra's plants and how big of a joke they are compared to literally every other pet (yes, even Ivern's rock Daisy has a better AI than Zyra's plants and doesn't die from 1 hit)?

Compare Zyra's plants to Heimer's turrets, both of these champions are balanced and completely made up around their pets (Zyra's plants and Heimer's turrets), Heimer's turrets last forever unless killed, they also resist AoE abilites, resist DoT damage, have a bigger HP bar, take multiple MELEE and ranged attacks to die and have better AI, they also scale really well with AP, like unbelievably good.

Now, we have Zyra's plants, they last for 8 seconds (if you're lucky), they literally have no AI and can't even auto-target enemies unless you attack them (unlike Malzahar's minions, Heimer's turrets', Ivernn's Daisy and Annie's Tibbers), they also can't attack Dragons and Baron (every other pet literally can attack dragon's and baron), they take damage from AoE abilities, they scale awfully with AP, they can literally be 2-shot by basic attacks (1-shot my melee basic attacks) and 1 shot by DoT attacks, also, on-hit attacks kill them instantly (Orianna's passive, MF's passive), they also have awful base damage.

Please, do something about this, revert the plant's nerf and make them act like every other actual functioning pet, also, give them some hp/tankiness for god's sake.

OneDoesNotSimplySep 7, 20184 votes

great idea, lets go back to zyra support meta, especially since ap supps are already strong atm. cant wait for sorc shoes+oblivion orb supp zyra damage....

on a more serious note: the only thing they should change is that the plants take so much damage from Aoe abilities so she is a bit better in teamfights.

Support 4 LyfeSep 7, 20187 votes

There are tons more supports right now that can do what Zyra did before, and do it even better and be more oppressive (AKA Brand, Vel'Koz, Xerath and even Veigar support), they didn't get gutted the way Zyra did, plus Brand in teamfights can annihilate an entire team with his passive and ult, Vel'Koz's ult deals tons of damage plus it has insane range and Veigar can zone-off the entire enemy team with his E cage.

NinetalesSep 7, 201812 votes

Hey Meddler,

It's been just a little over a week since the Yorick nerfs, did they hit the mark you were aiming at?

RiotMeddlerSep 7, 201811 votes

We think they've been ok. He's still performing quite well in low, average and high MMR, so not seeing indicators yet that we've taken too much power out (though seeing some player feedback stating they feel otherwise). Reduction in power seems pretty consistent across MMR bands though, so we didn't hit on our other goal of reducing him a bit more in low MMR than in high.

NinetalesSep 7, 20189 votes

Do you have any comments on the recent nerfs pushing him out of being a necromancer-type champion and instead becoming more like nasus?

ShadowParkerSep 7, 201810 votes

Can we get some info on midlane Taliyah?

Is riot happy with her primarily being a jungler?

Many people from the Taliyahmains subreddit are asking for a revert to her minirework, is there any chance of that followed by nerfs to hit your initial goals of nerfing her waveclear?

RiotMeddlerSep 7, 201810 votes

We're seeing mid Taliyah perform a bit weaker than jungle Taliyah, particularly at low MMR (gap's a lot smaller at high MMR). We're happy to see her getting jungle play, especially given she brings something pretty distinct to the jungle role as a mage. Would like to see her do a bit better in mid as well though, so whenever we need to do balance work on her we'll look at ways to narrow that gap. Her mid performance is pretty close already to well performant though, especially in higher MMRs, so not aiming for urgent or large changes overall.

In terms of what players are looking for from Taliyah, definitely get that liking a champ in one position and seeing the majority of their play shift to another can be pretty frustrating if you're not a fan of that new position. At the same time though we want to balance that around trying to keep the evolution of the game where possible and recognizing that it can make a lot of other players enjoy a champ who weren't previously. For quite a while Taliyah was one of our least played champs, despite being a really strong, or even really dominant, pick in mid. We've seen a lot more people engage with her, playing a significant number of games each, since she started getting play in the jungle and feel that's important to acknowledge too.

Shadow HazardSep 7, 20185 votes

It really feels like riot throws at a dart board for choosing which champs get supported in off roles and which get hard gutted out when they see viability in any role out of the riot enforced choice.

DeathBurstSep 7, 20185 votes

It's actually quite simple: is the off-role fair or is it abusing some unexpected interaction (or lack thereof).

The obvious example is all the mid Supports that just endlessly wave-cleared, totally ignored their enemy laner, and waited for late game team-fights to buff their ADC. This wasn't fair and fun, it offers no possibility for interaction, and it's a degenerate use-case. That's why Janna, Karma and Lulu ALL got nerfed when they were played mid, all for the same reason.

Another example is AP Kog'maw. Kog'maw is supposed to DPS with his basic attacks, and so should be accessible for the enemies to engage upon. AP Kog who mostly use his R from Fog of war doesn't leave any counter-play to the opponent, so the playstyle got removed during the rework.

On the other hand, the likes of Taliyah or Ezreal don't create such issues when they wander into off-roles, so they are supported.

XenohazSep 7, 20189 votes

Any thoughts on Nunu so far? Too weak, too strong, or working as desired?

RiotMeddlerSep 7, 20189 votes

Seems ok so far, so no need to hotfix buff or nerf. Need more time to see where he settles though, VGUs have pretty similar (re)learning curves to new champs.

GaliöSep 7, 20189 votes

Awe no random statistics today. In always a fan of those. Fun to look at and speculate about.

RiotMeddlerSep 7, 201814 votes

Should have some more in the moderate future. Was thinking a good one to look at would be how many games the average player playing a champ has actually played on them, dig into some of the 'X has a high win rate because only mains play them, Y has a low winrate only because of new people trying them' etc

PandaNator43Sep 7, 20188 votes

Super interested in this.

Since adding champion mastery, I've realized I'll spam a champ until I'm level 4 then decide to spam a new champ.

GaliöSep 7, 20184 votes

Even though it may not be 100% accurate (especially with nunu currently) but this is a fun look. (I'm not sure if 100% accurate but may be close)

https://www.leagueofgraphs.com/champions/winrates-by-xp

Seeing the highest winrate with experience is interesting but even more so the differential between average winrate and experienced winrate.

And then following up with:

https://www.leagueofgraphs.com/champions/main-stats

To see which champs are 'mained (30% plus by LoG standards' and 'one tricked (70% of games)'

In case you want to look for yourself until we get official riot data.

PandaNator43Sep 7, 20182 votes

awesome! thanks!

Pokemonred200Sep 7, 20187 votes

Is item 3056 still on the radar for a rework anytime soon?

RyzeTheSmurfMageSep 7, 20187 votes

What's up with all these insults in this thread?

The Last BalladSep 8, 20183 votes

People are dumb and can't seperate one person's actions from another's.

Or maybe it guilty by association?

ZenzagaSep 7, 20185 votes

How will you determine what key the smite goes on? If the point is to not have to worry in case you forgot to change to smite it's still going to be a problem if it's on the wrong key

RiotMeddlerSep 7, 201812 votes

From memory if you've got Flash and something else currently equipped it will replace the something else. I think it goes on D if you've got two non Flash/Smite summoners equipped, though wouldn't swear to that.

MyozthirirnSep 7, 201824 votes

Riot comfirms F is for Flash.

DivewingSep 8, 20182 votes

Riot confirmed wrong then

ShalashalskaSep 8, 20184 votes

It only puts it on D if you don't have flash. So they are confirming that F is for a summoner spell that us neither smite nor flash.

SmeagiulSep 7, 20185 votes

Is there a way we can get some details on the upcoming support items changes, if so, can the support players take part into the discussion ?

RiotMeddlerSep 7, 20185 votes

Support item work's currently just a prototype a designer threw into testing this week. If it looks like it might go somewhere we'll share some details, get thoughts from you folks. Opinion on whether it's the right thing to be focusing on internally's split too (versus putting that time into other issues), so also still determining whether to make changes at all in the first place.

YumaS2AstralSep 7, 20185 votes

Hey Meddler, what do you think of Hecarim? Hecarim

He seems very weak currently and has none of the tools that other bruisers currently have, and doesn't even have the option to top lane currently.

He is also too reliant on snowballing but can't snowball as reliably as other meta junglers, despite the fact that he falls off late game.

shofazSep 7, 20184 votes

[deleted]

RiotMeddlerSep 7, 20188 votes

I'm not worried personally that this buff, given it's pretty light, will push him into way too strong territory. If he ends up there think it's much more likely to be a result of meta shift than 100g off first core, 100g more on second. Viktor's been challenging at times to balance, given once he can be fairly mid lane meta defining, think he's a bit on the weak side even accounting for that though and that we're being appropriately cautious with this buff.

Zoli BenSep 7, 20184 votes

Hi Meddler! Thanks! Have a nice weekend!

SpideraxeSep 7, 20183 votes

Hi Meddler can i ask about the stat pool for the pre game after rune and stat divorce, can i ask what other stats you guys would consider adding or removing since Rovient mentioned you guys already axed flat regen and are considering hybrid pen

2Spicy ReformedSep 7, 20181 votes

Hey Meddler,

With this new smite being auto taken how will you deal with people who want to swap roles in champ select?

KazekibaSep 7, 20186 votes

You can swap the Smite out, its not mandated. You just load in with smite as a Jungler so if someone says "hey can I jg?" you can just take appropriate summoners for their role.

Milan RadićSep 7, 20181 votes

That Smite change is very very bad beacuse imagine if u wanna swap with let's say midlaner.You will be unable to change smite to ignite so please don't do thism

RiotMeddlerSep 7, 201813 votes

You won't be forced to take Smite, it'll just be one of the Summoners selected when you enter champ select. If you want to change to other spells, go for it. This won't be any different than what happens when you currently have Smite selected at the start because you'd had it in your previous game.

KoboldSep 7, 20183 votes

Just want to pop in here and ask why not allow your summoners to be able to be predefined by the player by Role (possibly also champion) and then introduce role swapping? I.e. as a player out of game I can set my predefined summoners and then when I am in the lobby it will change to my predefined and also swap if I have a predefined and swap roles. This prevents issues like last second swaps causing summoner spell change failure costing players the game.