Quick Gameplay Thoughts: March 21

RiotMeddler·Mar 21, 2018·1 votes·46,384 views

Hi folks,

Usual Disclaimers

These posts will often contain talk about future work we're doing, or planning to do, that isn't yet guaranteed to ship. The nature of the work could change or, depending on what we discover, projects mentioned may get put delayed or even stopped. If you'd like to see a Tweet whenever a new one of these posts goes up: https://twitter.com/RiotMeddler

Solo Snowball versus Team Snowball

We're going to be looking at how some of the rewards in the game contribute to solo snowball versus team snowball over some upcoming patches. We shifted a few things towards team snowball a while back, aiming to give more agency/impact to roles who needed it (jungle/support at the time) and reduce the degree to which the other positions would sometimes get so individually far ahead they were too hard to deal with. In retrospect we think we went too far in that direction though. That reduced concentration of power makes it harder to get ahead enough to really carry and means that when you're facing an enemy team that's ahead it's a bit too much that they're all ahead and threatening than that there are particular enemies who are really high threat you need to try and play around/shut down.

We're planning to start by shifting shutdown gold back to going to whoever killed the enemy on a killstreak, rather than being split globally with the team. That's also got the benefit of making it more possible to get back into a losing lane if you can manage to get a kill on someone who's significantly up on kills on you.

If that shutdown gold changes goes well we'll then look at see whether we should shift any other team rewards back towards solo rewards. Want to make sure we're getting the desired result before doing that though and cautious about swinging back too far in the other direction.

Next Champion Roadmap

I've been seeing questions about when we'll have the next Champion roadmap start to crop up quite a bit recently so I checked in with Reav3 (who writes them) yesterday to find out. Current estimate is the next post is likely to in mid to late April, so about a month from now.

Homestart tuning and invades

We'll be doing some tuning to the start of game speed boost in an upcoming patch, probably 8.7. Back in pre-season we increased its speed significantly so that we could reduce time until minions spawn without cutting into invade times too much. That's worked well overall, the exact implementation can be a bit too punishing for aggressors though, given they'll sometimes be trying to chase down defenders who haven't yet entered the river and so still have the large speed boost themselves. Looking at adjusting things a bit as a result so defensive positions aren't rewarded quite as much. That's likely to look something like removing the speed after passing the outer towers (instead of the river), reducing the speed buff duration a bit, or making the speed boost start higher but decay.

http://ddragon.leagueoflegends.com/cdn/6.24.1/img/champion/Ziggs.png

212 Comments

BrokenKattMar 21, 201817 votes

THANK GOD please make me winning my lane matter slightly more as a non bot laner

ShinjrouMar 21, 201811 votes

Any news on Lissandra ?

Wukong AirlinesMar 21, 201811 votes

@Meddler, when can we expect a serious MonkeyKing discussion? No matter how good you are with the champion, his binary kit doesn't allow you to be as competitive and climb compared to playing other champions. most champs he used to counter got changed / buffed in a way or another, he does not fall in any class, you build him Assassin just to raise your chances of killing priority targets to win the game, he has an assassin's kit but a teamfight ultimate which can be easily denied and outdamaged/lifestealed/shielded.

He's been out of meta for too long, and he needs some love. Can we at least begin with the passive?

ButtsubushiMar 21, 201810 votes

Ninja tabi just gives too much armor, I'm building it on ADCs everytime there is at least one other AD threat besides the enemy ADC. Would it be possible to push it as the anti-onhit/onattack instead of the best value anti-AD item? Almost anyone can build it, it seems very unfair to AD assassins that it gives 30 armor as well as the attack reduction passive, while merc treads gives only 25MR and no other form of damage reduction.

Could some thing like this work with a scaling reduction based on "tank stats" rather than constant flat effectiveness. item 3047 ~~+ 30 Armor ~~

25 Armor ~~blocks 10% of the damage from basic attacks~~ blocks 6% of the damage from basic attacks, increases to 12% when your combined (bonus armor and magic resist) is over +100

Every class has options for armor now, after the changes to item 3026 now ADs can counter their own class, yay.

If Rageblade is still too strong on Varus will he be more likely to get: A) his Attack speed passive nerfed, B) W passive nerfed, C) W %HP proc nerfed, D) his base/per level AS nerfed?

RiotMeddlerMar 21, 20188 votes

Ninja Tabi - we're looking at them this patch. Goals there include probably bringing them down in power but also ensuring there's some nuance to when you build them that's harder to assess (not just 'do they have more than X auto attackers' or 'does my lane opponent basic attack'). Don't have a specific approach ready to share yet, will mention once we do.

Varus wise lowering the AS ratio on the passive, at least for minion kills, has been on my mind as a likely candidate if we need to pull power from him. Would depend though on which situations he was too strong in if he's still too strong post Rageblade changes (e.g. lane versus late game, which builds, against which types of opponent etc)

Blu 1Mar 21, 20187 votes

Please don't actually nerf tabis until you nerf adc's though

SpideraxeMar 21, 20189 votes

Hey Meddler can I ask for your thoughts on Disarm with Irelia bringing back the mechanic, since it seems like a blind clone imo

Shadow HazardMar 21, 201812 votes

Wasn't it already pointed out before about amumu having disarm?

Electro522Mar 21, 20183 votes

I think the difference between blind and disarm is that during a blind, your champ can still technically auto-attack, it just never goes through. A disarm is where your champ is locked out of even performing the auto-attack animation.

I'm not entirely sure if this is true, but if I'm to guess, that means stuff like item 3074 and item 3085 still goes through when blinded, but can't when disarmed.

RiotMeddlerMar 21, 20187 votes

Yep, Disarm's almost identical to Blind. There's a bit of distinction in terms of what feedback players get, with attacks not being made versus not doing anything when they land. Also likely a few cases where Blind allows some effects to occur still that happen on attack launch, not attack hit. Overall though I think you could describe Disarm as a differently themed Blind with the occasional special case rule.

Illâoi Evê SiônMar 21, 20182 votes

Will Disarm be reduced by Tenacity?

NightWind42Mar 21, 20186 votes

It is. When you get ulted by Amumu and have Mercs, the snare and the disarm end at the same time (there's no .7s when you can move but not attack).

RiotMeddlerMar 21, 20183 votes

It will yes.

CarnicoreMar 21, 20189 votes

About Homestart: Whenever I join a game late (sometimes happens) I don't get the buff when I'm leaving the fountain. This feels bad because then I'm late to lane, where homestart could've helped me. Could the homeguard buff persist a little longer after the game start?

RiotMeddlerMar 21, 201811 votes

Hmm, that seems reasonable, assuming it's still a one time thing (not getting it again if you go out, invade, recall). I'll pass that on, thanks!

ModThe DjinnMar 21, 20187 votes

{quoted}

Hmm, that seems reasonable, assuming it's still a one time thing (not getting it again if you go out, invade, recall). I'll pass that on, thanks!

Seems like it might be a solid fix to simply let it trigger for as long as you're on the fountain, up to X seconds into the game. I.E. basically make it two buffs: an X second buff while you're on the fountain, that, once you leave, gives you Y seconds of effect. Triggered only when you first spawn into the game. So if you leave the fountain while the first buff is active, you get the second buff. Otherwise, you get nothing.

You might have to tune it (or initial few seconds of gold flow) so that holding it on the fountain for some extra gold isn't the optimal situation, but it seems like it would have potential for helping people who load in a little slower.

Heck, you could possibly even backload some minor XP generation into the fountain side of the buff to help slow loaders not be stomped in lane. Something like "if you've still on the fountain after 1 minute and your buff is still up, get some partial XP flow."

I am RazgrizMar 21, 20182 votes

You're overcomplicating this.

ModThe DjinnMar 21, 20183 votes

[{quoted}](name=I am Razgriz,realm=NA,application-id=A7LBtoKc,discussion-id=7lOZPHOi,comment-id=0026000000000000,timestamp=2018-03-21T21:20:50.899+0000)

You're overcomplicating this.

It's not super complicated. I just explained it a bit poorly.

**For the first X seconds of the game, you gain the Homeguard buff. If you leave the platform with the Homeguard buff, you consume the buff and gain a speedboost for Y seconds."

The XP catch-up suggestion is merely a hook you could put on if slow loading ever popped up as a concern. :)

FloupiMar 21, 20189 votes

[deleted]

jadelinkMar 21, 20183 votes

Please, this. The sooner the Kill/assist distinction goes, the sooner we can get some actual cooperation without having to compete to NOT kill anyone in teamfights and ganks.

Illâoi Evê SiônMar 21, 20188 votes

Will you leave us means to promote team snowball on champions who don't want solo snowball? Maybe through a rune that divies up extra gold you get from kills globally or by adding objectives that give global gold like a Tamatoa Drake?

RiotMeddlerMar 21, 201812 votes

Supportive items and Runes, that effectively convert what could be personal power into donated power (e.g. Censer or Locket) are the ways we're looking to get team benefit delivered for those that want to opt into that. Possible we need a few more things in those spaces though, particularly given some of our current power donation effects do skew pretty strongly towards helping marksmen specifically, rather than being more general team helping effects.

HalcyonDwellerMar 21, 20185 votes

How would you feel about a flask that could be used to capture a jungle buff and deliver it to a teammate at a later time?

KaeblenMar 23, 20182 votes

I can just imagine this being created as a Smite upgrade for jungle items...

Ivern would love it.

B0OMMar 21, 20188 votes

While you're looking at Homestart, whichever direction you decide to go with, could you at the very least have the speed buff decay at the end of the buff, even if it's a quick decay? It feels very abrupt and awkward to have such a large movespeed buff just disappear in an instant.

RiotMeddlerMar 21, 20184 votes

Good call, will pass that along.

UltîmaMar 21, 20187 votes

Hey Meddler, I noticed Jayce wasn't given a compensation buff like the other Duskblade users this patch. Are there any plans for him in the future? He really hasn't been seen since last year after the beginning of the tank meta top.

Edit: Why the weird downvote for a legitimate question? Jayce has a pretty low winrate and tends to build Duskblade in 50% of scenarios. This nerf will definitely affect him.

RiotMeddlerMar 21, 20185 votes

From memory when we looked at Jayce (and some other users) we found that while they sometimes used Duskblade they generally performed as well (or sometimes better) with other items. We decided not to buff those champs as a result, given with a weaker Duskblade they'll swap to those alternatives regardless and that means we're just buffing them overall, not keeping them stable.

Underdog111Mar 21, 20183 votes

{quoted}

From memory when we looked at Jayce (and some other users) we found that while they sometimes used Duskblade they generally performed as well (or sometimes better) with other items. We decided not to buff those champs as a result, given with a weaker Duskblade they'll swap to those alternatives regardless and that means we're just buffing them overall, not keeping them stable.

According to champion.gg and lolanalytics Jayce seemed to have dropped 2% W/R so far this patch (47%), at plat and above. He also had/has duskblade as second item 50% of the time, first item 40% of the time prior to the patch. I’m not saying he needs direct buffs, but duskblade nerf defenitly directly affects him, and if winrate is the issue champs like shaco shouldn’t have received compensation buffs given his W/R prior and post the patch.

I know Jayce is a tightrope or balance, but maybe looking at muramana wouldn’t be such a bad idea at this time given on he and ezreal ever take it, and Jayce barely takes it with how weak poke is vs warmogs and heavy ball comps that are so prevalent.

Jayce can be oppressive top when overturned, but when balanced around muramana and E/Qs mid instead of range auto advantages top (which are inherently more problematic because of the lack of mana gating on autos) he seems a lot more balanced. When played as a mura user mid land, but mura is far to weak right now on everyone except ezreal who basically gets it for free. He’s also less likely to be top using mura since trying to scale against tanks instead of just blow them out means he’s always going to be outscaled, so it’s not a very viable strategy unless he’s running Botrk cleaver, which isn’t the strongest right now.

SteelflameMar 21, 20186 votes

Something to consider is the fact that as long as there is an assist, it automatically adds to the kill's total value as well. No matter what, getting a solo kill is less valuable than a kill with at least one helper.

Perhaps adjust the baseline kill gold up, and make assist actually take a chunk from the kill's value?

This drops the pressure to try and force yourself to get an assist in situations you may not have seen one happen (because you are not wasting the 150 assist gold or so), while also rewarding solo plays a bit more than team gang-bang feistas on bot, especially because while they may get a lead, they won't get as much gold funneled into whoever got the kill with the assist draining it out.

RiotMeddlerMar 21, 20185 votes

The inflation of the kill value via assist gold's there so that it's almost always the correct action to work together as a team and that that's clear enough to players too. We don't want situations where players are raging at their team for helping get a kill (I totally had that, stop stealing my gold!), especially given so much of the value of the kill isn't directly from the kill gold anyway (safe farming time, loss of enemy farming, ability to pressure or do objective etc).

Agree with you it's important to ensure solo kills feel rewarding and like they can be impactful on game state. Think there are more effective ways, that come with less collateral cost, than targeting the assist gold pool though.

FloupiMar 21, 20189 votes

[deleted]

Night 25Mar 21, 20184 votes

I'm still quite confused about why the gold from killing a champion is given to the player that deals the killing blow, instead of the one that inflicted the most damage in the last 5 seconds or so. I tried Ask Riot to get an answer about this but there isn't yet, so I hope they can answer in this thread

TomiMan7Mar 21, 20185 votes

Hey Meddler!

Waaay back you said that you would be up to do more work on being a competent midlaner, what are your thought about this now?

On item 3047 do you think that the item itself is to OP or auto attackers(mainly adcs) are just too potent and they get their items/dmg too fast and the best counter to them is therefore making the item seemingly op?

Flame HashiraMar 21, 20185 votes

Will you guys do something about bot lane in particular, lately it seems like it's too important to where if your botlane loses the chances of losing go down. I know that it's a duo lane so obviously it's supposed to be important but it seems too important with adcs having incredibly high pick rates compared to other champions.

RavenHuskyMar 21, 20184 votes

Any context on the Lux buff we saw on the PBE last Thursday that got reverted?

RiotMeddlerMar 21, 20184 votes

Should be back, with some additional changes to test (ult resets if the target dies within X seconds, not just to the ult) for 8.7 PBE. Still experimental.

Pixie StormMar 22, 20182 votes

{quoted}

Should be back, with some additional changes to test (ult resets if the target dies within X seconds, not just to the ult) for 8.7 PBE. Still experimental.

Kennen Question! Hi Meddler, I'm not sure if I'm the only one who has brought this up but I used to play a lot of ** Kennen **and I'm not so sure if he is healthy right now.
Would you be able to address the state of him and find out if anyone is doing anything to help him out? Maybe a little buff, since his best friend Akali is getting some help?

Rayjay RedfangMar 21, 20184 votes

Two questions

Last year it was mentioned that more start items (like dorans items) would be added. Has that been scrapped or still in process?
in regards to Kayn's pre-form, would it be possible to indicate which form he is closer to reaching. It would be nice to have visual clarity on the progress of which form he is closest to reaching before it actually happens.

SpideraxeMar 21, 20183 votes

Also how goes the exploration into the bot lane open up with midseason around the corner

RiotMeddlerMar 21, 20184 votes

Still going through internal testing at present. Starting to get some things we think have decent promise, some of which are focused on who can lane effectively in bot and some of which are power curve and objection contribution focused. More details soonish, also possible we do some of those changes before and after midseason to smooth out disruption a bit and make sure things are hitting their targets before we go on to the next step.

RenanReinMar 21, 20183 votes

Hey Meddler, I have a question about Irelia's rework. Why did you guys gave her so much magic damage and AP ratios that high? Don't you guys think It looks a little bit exatered? She has much more AP scaling and magic damage than AD scaling and physical damage. Do you think this could become a problem eventually balance wise?

WindLord7070Mar 21, 20183 votes

Any plans to revert nidalee to before she had her passive work on jungle camps or just straight up buffs for lane nidalee.

SpârkyMar 21, 20183 votes

Hey Meddler First time responding in time when you can reply. So regarding the state of adc's I know you are doing the mid season around them I would like to know if you guys have thought about flourishing the niches of adc's because items and kits right now mesh a bunch of adc's into one category making them all generalist adc's. Like Jhin being the pick comp with his long range cc to help catch people out. Jinx and trist being the tower killers/ resets in teamfights. Kog, vayne being the tank busters, xayah and cait being more of the seiging/ lower dps than the hypercarries but compensated by having cc, and ezreal and varus being the caster adc's.

Just wondering if maybe making it so these champs have their clear strengths and weaknesses like jhin who I think is the best designed adc because he does so well with his niche but struggles elsewhere where other champs don't.

Just wondering because this to me allows you to balance adc's while making each one unique rather than a right click bot. :D

RiotMeddlerMar 21, 20184 votes

I think more distinction between ADCs would have definite value, and would help to balance them more against each other. It is something we've worked a fair bit on over the years though, and while it helps open up ADCs against each other doesn't help with getting other classes into bot lane too. For midseason we'll be more focused on other approaches to opening up the lane (though there'll likely be at least a couple of things that do help with ADC distinction).

DarkSpiritslayerMar 21, 20183 votes

i like the fact that you guys want to lower "Team Snowball" and make "Solo Snowball" a thing again love it

but right now ADCs already solocarry games super easy! i have the fear that ADCs will solo carry even harder :S like it will be impossible to do something vs an ADC that's ahead

yeah sure it's Attack Damage CARRY but it's hard enough already to do something vs an ADC that's ahead improving solo carry on top of ADCs already beeing almost unstoppable when ahead ... this could be a disaster

RocomanMar 21, 20183 votes

I'm not sure what changes you're looking at for Rumble, but I'd like to throw some suggestions your way while they are still internal. For these changes, damage numbers may need to be shifted around for balance purposes, but I think they help address some of his core issues:

Add grounding to his ult, take off linger duration. You guys mentioned that you don't like the linger duration on his ult, so this seems like a good tradeoff.
Make consecutive E hits more rewarding. Currently the bonus for hitting consecutive E's is ok, but I feel like it could be better. Maybe instead of slowing it could stun or root. If not, then it could do bonus damage.
Make W ignore unit collision.
Lower base damage on ult. Ult now generates 20 heat. Ult damage is increased by 50% when cast in the danger zone.

I think all/most of these changes would be healthy for his kit. I'm not sure what you guys have planned, but it seems like you want to do something more than just buffing numbers on Q and R, so these are my ideas on what could be done.

haywire androidMar 21, 20183 votes

Hi Meddler, got some thoughts on the life steal stat/mechanic if you got the time.

There's recently been quite a bit of discussion around Ninja Tabi, shields and the marksmen class. A lot of the discussion centers around the survivability of marksmen.

I'm a bit curious if the life steal stat/game mechanic has been discussed among the dev-team in this discussion.

Currently assassins have a quite binary job of either killing the adc or if failing they apply next to no preasurre since adc:s by rune and item design get full health after a failed assassination and can continue to fight/siege without backing.

In my opinion it would be healthier for the game if an attack on the adc that doesn't result in a kill could force a back or open up for another try to assassinate the adc at lower health.

Similarly shields feel more oppressive if the adc life steals during the shield. A 400hp shield feels like a 500hp shield due to the "hidden" healing of 100hp during the shield.

Thanks for reading

HügöMar 21, 20183 votes

Can we talk a bit about matchmaking? If I understand it correctly it tries to match equal teams like 1500 vs 1500 but it doesn't care if there is 1 very good and 1 very bad player in the teams? Wouldn't it then be better if it would look to match equal laners against each other?