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Quick Gameplay Thoughts: November 22

RiotMeddler··1 votes·41,914 views

Morning all,


Usual Disclaimers

These posts will often contain talk about future work we're doing, or planning to do, that isn't yet guaranteed to ship. The nature of the work could change or, depending on what we discover, projects mentioned may get put delayed or even stopped.

If you'd like to see a Tweet whenever a new one of these posts goes up: https://twitter.com/RiotMeddler


7.24 is the last standard patch of the year

7.24, the patch currently on PBE, will be the last standard patch of the year as we get close to the end of year holiday period. All going according to plan, it'll go out around the 5th of December. That still leaves quite a bit of time during December where we'll be working on stuff though with a while until the first patch of next year (8.1) in early January. We're planning to do at least a few balance adjustments via micro patch in mid December as a result for anything that's ready to go and safe to do via micro patch.


When is it appropriate to micro patch?

Micro patches involve changes to game logic. They don't allow us to add completely new things to the game though, especially not where those things would need new art/sound etc (e.g. skins, new features, champs, items etc). The biggest thing that impacts whether we micro patch a particular change or not is how easy it is to assess the possible impact of it:

  • Game code changes tend to higher risk changes, so we're more hesitant to micro patch them. Game code here refers to the core functionality of the game, stuff like how units move around, how fog of war works, that health exists as a concept etc. For many changes, even if they look pretty simple, they can impact so many different things it's not appropriate to micropatch them (micro patches have really limited testing compared to normal changes)

  • Game script changes range in risk from high to low. Game script (Lua in our case) controls things like how specific champion abilities function, or how items work. Some changes are easy to assess and therefore safe to change (e.g. changing 'If X>0.1' to 'If X>0.01), especially given worst case scenario is normally that you just mess up one champion ability or whatever. Other changes by contrast tend to cross the risk threshold if they involve changing a lot of logic throughout the script (e.g. rewriting how Pix follows Lulu/people she's E'd for example are much more complex).

  • Raw numbers changes. These are normally safest of all, changing something like a spell's damage, a champion's base HP etc. A few of them still have notable risk, in particular if a champion's scripts are really dependent on them (e.g. spell cast ranges or timings). Generally we can change these pretty safely provided there's a strong enough need. It's still better to get a full cycle of testing in, both from a bug and balance perspective, unless the need is urgent though.


Morg and Zyra changes

We've got some Morg and Zyra changes in 7.24 aimed at helping them perform better outside of support. Goal there's not to push them out of support though, so if their duo lane performance ends up struggling we'll do some follow up work to get them to a reasonable spot there, possibly in the micro patch mid December. We think the current changes should be ok for support as well, but the amount of testing we get internally's tiny relative to the number of games that get played after a patch goes out.


No Posts until late next week

As a quick heads up there won't be another of these posts until late next week. It's the Thanksgiving break here in the US so I'm taking the opportunity to head home (New Zealand) for a week. That means it's also likely I won't be able to respond to this post much either, apologies (I'm writing it at work, but will be posting it while traveling).

http://ddragon.leagueoflegends.com/cdn/6.24.1/img/champion/Ziggs.png

162 Comments

Seviel Vorose17 votes

Syndra has been bugged since 7.10, and preseason just introduced more severe bugs. Can we get any information, please? She's sitting on 46% win rate and 5% pick rate. /r/SyndraMains is desperate about this.

Seviel Vorose6 votes

Why are people even downvoting, wtf. This community.

TomiMan73 votes

if you check every comment has been downvoted

Malicious Metal16 votes

Hey Meddler, can I ask what the reasoning behind giving Galio's W, his primary defensive spell, a base damage + 0.6 AP ratio while taking away power from his passive?

Doesn't this change muddle the actual strategic value of his spells since he'd want to use all of them whenever they're up to maximize his damage output? I just don't see a reason behind putting damage on W since I always felt it was creating some nice strategic value simply by the nature of the damage reduction/CC aspect of it.

Besides, I do not feel Galio struggles in terms of lacking damage, especially not scaling ones with his 400%ish AP ratios. From what I can tell, Galio simply falls flat early, before he's allowed to hit his power spikes?

Anyhow, I'd like to get some context on these changes because I feel Galio does not need more damage to be put into his kit but rather needs his strengths/weaknesses to be more pronounced. Still, the fact that you're looking at Galio is great, he does need a bit of love as of late.

Illâoi Evê Siôn3 votes

Adding another source of damage should allow them to balance the difference between Tank and Mage Galio a bit better because they don't have to put too much power into his Q ... maybe?

Chembaron Yamada2 votes

He already has damage on his Q, E and Passive (and R if you want to count it). Aren't these enough balance levers?

Rinký Dinky2 votes

Nope, it is far healthier to have his damage spread out amongst his abilities, especially on a tank.

Sw4de8 votes

I think there are people mass downvoting other posts to get their one to stick out at the top, isn't there anything that can be done about this?

Malicious Metal5 votes

Removing the vote system would be one thing, especially on these types of riot posts.

TiberiusAudley7 votes

Morg and Zyra changes

We've got some Morg and Zyra changes in 7.24 aimed at helping them perform better outside of support. Goal there's not to push them out of support though, so if their duo lane performance ends up struggling we'll do some follow up work to get them to a reasonable spot there, possibly in the micro patch mid December. We think the current changes should be ok for support as well, but the amount of testing we get internally's tiny relative to the number of games that get played after a patch goes out.

This is great to hear, but my primary concern with this thought is regarding Zyra. I'll put the main concern up here, and the explanation underneath: How do you plan to address Zyra's complete lack of safety in order to empower her solo laning?

In ye Olden days, before some massive changes to the game, immobile mages were pretty common mid, because they had access to waveclear that wasn't present on the mages' biggest weakness, Assassins. Around S4 (I think), Riot made changes to a bunch of assassins that gave them access to waveclear, so even if they were put behind they could keep themselves in the game and turn mages into a big liability as the game went on, since they were always under threat of just being blown up and turned into a numbers disadvantage. This is a large factor into why most of the immobile mages that do still see play are seen in bot lane (Annie, Brand, Vel'Koz, Zyra, Morgana) simply because it's the only area where losing their burst mitigates the liability of them being dead.

The exceptions that see solo lanes are generally Vladimir (Who has pool to escape burst) and Malzahar (who has a spell shield that has to be popped, as well as a long suppression and silence to defend himself.)

Morgana is relatively safe like the above two, thanks to her Black Shield, though her weakness comes in her difficulty waveclearing due to how her W works -- anyone who can push back on her can mitigate her minion clearing, and pushing her under tower makes her risk missing minions if she uses W.

Zyra, on the other hand, even in support role, is an extremely delicate target. At the highest (pro) levels of play, Zyra being in the meta along with assassins just turns her into free pickins' for the enemy assassin to blow up, leave, and just reset while teams have a numbers advantage.

Morningst4R7 votes

Thoughts on Zoe so far?

Prince Archer6 votes

Is there any plan to tackle AP itemization? Currently it feels like there is little diversity in the items to choose.

RiotRiot MapleNectar4 votes

Confirm that we're working on it, but not confirming us to an exact timeline. Likely going to be around 8.03 give or take a few patches :P

ProfDrDeath2 votes

Anything you can/want to already talk about? Has a decision been made on the mana topic?

Queš5 votes

Hey Meddler!

Do you plan on doing anything to Press The Attack ? Because right now it feels like almost everyone will chose between Lethal Tempo and Press the Attack whic is stronger at the moment.because they are pretty similiar.Also Fervor users are struggling.

Also any news about Yorick ?

warpenguin5555 votes

Do you have any info on when we can expect to see the AP Items rework?

EDIT: And will Swain's rework be finished before or the AP Rework?

RiotRiot MapleNectar2 votes

Ap Item work will be in the first half of next year, likely the first 3 months. A roughhhhh target I gave higher up is 8.03 but that's give or take a FEW patches.

zorlox775 votes

Do you have any thoughts on the tutorial? People seem to have forgotten it exists.

The Yetii Rider4 votes

Enjoy your time at home!

Are there any further thoughts on the state of Nunu after the hotfix? Ivern has some buffs on the PBE but Nunu doesn't seem to.

RiotRiotRepertoir5 votes

Not Meddler, but basically, we're not buffing Nunu just yet because it seems that if he takes his best keystone, he performs very well. People just seem to not be taking that one.

The Yetii Rider1 votes

What keystone? Guardian?

I've tried Guardian, Aftershock (on accident), Unsealed Spellbook, Kleptomancy, Dark Harvest and Fleet of Foot.

Fleet of Foot has actually felt pretty good in the few games I played with it. The 18% AS is just better than a keystone for the early game, as far as I can tell.

My overall satisfaction with my champion has decreased significantly, though. It's much more common for all three of my lanes to get behind in the preseason and all of these hyper mobile junglers running around with Electrocute and Dark Harvest is only making it worse.

RiotRiotRepertoir2 votes

Oh, yes, it is Guardian, I believe.

Illâoi Evê Siôn2 votes

It'd be nice if he could get a second keystone though instead of being forced to take 1 of 15 in order to have a 50% win rate.

Riven In Jungle4 votes

Hey Meddler, I'm not sure if Riot is aware, but there's this cool champ named Quinn. She's sitting at a 49% WR and could probably use a small buff.

Also she's been bugged for about a month, with her ultimate actually dealing 0 damage, memes aside. No signs of a fix so I'm hoping to shed some light here.

Happy Thanksgiving and please show some love to lesser played champs from time to time.

Kloqdq5 votes

Quinn could use a rework before she should get a buff.

Valor Bot6 votes

Aye, rework would be appreciated over buffs. Point still stands though that she suffers from a few nasty bugs that would be worth taking a look at and fixing (Skystrike not dealing damage, Harrier not prioritizing champions you attack, Vault occasionally not following people through walls).

Kloqdq3 votes

No idea why you got downvoted for stating legitimate bugs xD

Yeah, Quinn is the hot mess of league at the moment in my mind. Something needs to be done for the girl in skin tight blue.

Roganox4 votes

Thanks for these posts. Enjoy your trip home :)

HalcyonDweller4 votes

Hi Meddler,

A couple Gameplay Thoughts posts ago, you discussed snowballing, and this inspired me to ask some questions about it:

  1. How does Riot look at snowballing from a balance perspective?
  2. How much does player tilt factor into Riot's view of it? Aside from that, what other things do you feel impact snowballing the most?
  3. and how hotly debated is snowballing-balance among Rioters?

And one last one, in your opinion are there situations where 'feast or famine' is especially better or worse for game health?

DunkmasterSyndra4 votes

Hey Meddler, on the course of the year, significants bugs on Syndra appeared and make her borderless tilting to play, the stuttering after ulting, If you cast W when on R animation, W is instantly cast on yourself (preseason dating bug), and the W bug with the minion this patch. Are the dev team on it or will i just stick up to another champ?[zombie-nunu-bummed]

Sw4de4 votes

Is the team looking at AD damage vs tanky targets as an issue? with the removal of 7% armor pen (full armor pen) from masteries and no compensation buff to the already terrible LW(and black cleaver) thats only penetrating 35% bonus armor, tanks are looking to be a problem for yet another season.

warpenguin5554 votes

Marksmen already kill ~~everything ~~tanks too quickly, assassins aren't supposed to be able to kill tanks. Juggernauts need more than tank killing, they need to be able to survive more then 3 hits from a 2 item marksmen

SoundChaosDebug4 votes

like nearly every post I see is downvoted, people have problems.

Illâoi Evê Siôn4 votes

Hey Meddler, some clarity requests here: Could you replace the time slowed measurement on Glacial Augment with CC score gained? That would let us see how much CC it added to our base kit and let us compare with others. Similarly, could you do the same with Vision Score gained on Vision Runes?

Edit: Oh, and CC gained measurement on slow items, please.

Lebłanc Bot4 votes

Any new information on Leblanc and how her changes are coming along ?

adswards3 votes

Hey meddler i wish knew. Kindred will get a change soon or you thought kindred dont need a change ?

Never FF Boy3 votes

Any plan for Master Yi ? He's pretty weak so far with the runes, and has been weak since quit some time now.

Cyber HeroXL5 votes

[{quoted}](name=i e v e n,realm=EUW,application-id=A7LBtoKc,discussion-id=70pWABtr,comment-id=0025,timestamp=2017-11-22T18:45:47.931+0000)

Any plan for Master Yi ? He's pretty weak so far with the runes, and has been weak since quit some time now.

he's definitely someone id vote for the next VGU, he's a squishy melee dps with zero utility crowd control or poke, requiring to steal kills from everyone at all points in the game to be worth anything. to quote Skooch: "a not-fed maste yi is the equivalent of having an extra super minion on the map, but instead of splitpushing he's probably saying obscenitys from the fountain".

Never FF Boy2 votes

Yeah, i pretty much agree.

5YD03 votes

Hi @Meddler, I (and many others) have FPS issues for the longest time. Patch 7.23 has several fixes but none of them have helped. What is going on with the optimization?

RiotRiot MapleNectar2 votes

The engineers are still working on more fixes, it seems like it's a death by 1000 cuts situation, so hopefully we'll see more come through over the next few patches as they run into them.

Spideraxe3 votes

Hey Meddler if you see this I'd like to ask what would be the criteria for a revert on a rework as I know some people aren't too pleased with all of Riot's reworks

M0RDEKA1SER3 votes

Ooh, this is the first time I've seen you mention something about your coding. How exactly does Mordekaiser's shield/passive work?

In some regards, it works like a normal shield, while other times it doesn't.

Have you ever considered changing his passive and resource? Something like replacing his unique resource with mana that is lost before health, and generated via doing damage? Would the coding look something like Blitzcrank's passive? Or perhaps the item 3040 active?

rip john shelby3 votes

What's about the LeBlanc rework? (:

nexusofdoom2 votes

Game Updates for LAN-Centers and location that do not have the best connection to the internet.

When downloading updates for LOL it is again pulling from https not http. will the RDC1918 be put back in place?

Ref Ticket TICKET #32772132 and #20765971

https://github.com/bntjah/lancache/issues/76

Old Notes. Stealthii commented on Apr 17, 2016

It might be worth closing this issue as the latest released client has included an HTTP downgrade for RFC1918 (or local IP) addresses.

Lost Promos1 votes

Why don't you release patch 8.1 sooner? like in december?

RiotRiot MapleNectar5 votes

Much of Riot shuts down during the christmas season, so shipping when only a skeleton crew is around to fix critical bugs is no bueno. The 7.24b patch is a happy medium.

Sahn Uzal2 votes

Welp, guess that means we're not getting Swain next patch huh? I'm sad now :(

Solidair33 votes

Swain isn't coming till next year, I think Reav3 confirmed that a while ago

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