Quick Gameplay Thoughts: August 24

RiotMeddler·8/24/2018, 3:50:02 PM·1 votes·151,883 views

Hi folks,

Usual Disclaimers

These posts will often contain talk about future work we're doing, or planning to do, that isn't yet guaranteed to ship. The nature of the work could change or, depending on what we discover, projects mentioned may get delayed or even stopped. If you'd like to see a Tweet whenever a new one of these posts goes up: https://twitter.com/RiotMeddler

http://ddragon.leagueoflegends.com/cdn/6.24.1/img/champion/Ziggs.png


Looking into game loading bugs

We're looking into some issues with how long it's taking to load into game at present, including a bug where one player won't start loading until everyone else has finished doing so. Not sure on timing or details of a fix yet, but wanted to share that it was being actively worked on.

When we're prioritizing work bugs get bumped up the priority list if they're really impactful or if they're really common. Things that are both at once, such as this, get prioritized over most things as a result, given the combination's especially bad.


Mastery Curves for Recent Releases

Not too much new to talk about today in terms of what we're working on, given a lot of time's going into things like Preseason, Ranked and Nexus Blitz where we've already talked about the details or things aren't yet ready to be shared. Figured it would be a good time to look at some more Mastery Curve graphs as a result. Let us know if data like this is something you're especially interested in and I'll try and include a bit more of it if so.

For anyone unfamiliar with mastery curves, or wanting to see a few more, they were in a couple of posts earlier this year:

https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/developer-corner/1czrgEgw-quick-gameplay-thoughts-february-21 https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/developer-corner/X3P0v1Vh-quick-gameplay- thoughts-february-23

TLDR is they show how much a champion's winrate increases as a player plays more games on them and they're a useful tool for us when it comes to making balance decisions.

Looking today at mastery curves for some recent releases with Pyke, Irelia, Kai'Sa and Swain, plus Rengar, Jax, Vayne and Karthus provided as comparison points from similar (ish) champions. This data's taken from games over the last three months, at all MMRs, from most regions. Curves do change a bit at high MMR versus low, but usually not very dramatically (same trends). Aatrox and Akali aren't included here because their updates were recently too recently for us to have enough data to populate these curves well enough (not enough people have reached the 30+ mark in particular).

https://imgur.com/a/nO8lc53

A few things I think are worth noting:

  • This is average data over a few months, so doesn't necessarily reflect current power level.
  • Pyke and Rengar make for an interesting comparison. On one hand they're both champs that get quite a lot of benefit from being played a lot, with a 9% climb over 50 games being notably above average. That's fairly common for non tanky melee champs, who tend to have high curves based off the demands on when they go into fights, how they position etc. The contrast in how front loaded Pyke is (lot to learn, but comes quicker) versus Rengar's more steady curve's noteworthy though. Somewhat front loaded curves have tended to be easier to balance, given the discrepancy between moderate and heavy play isn't so high. Rengar's certainly been a balance challenge over the years but, while it's still early days, some suggestion here Pyke might be a bit less of a problem.
  • Irelia and Jax also make for a pretty interesting contrast. From about 15 games onwards their curves are quite similar, ending at around the same power level too. Irelia's starts off low and steep though, assumedly reflecting initial challenges learning how to combo and execute on her abilities, then transitioning into the same sort of mastery that Jax is testing beyond that point (some shift of focus to things like match ups, building timings etc, with less on mechanical execution and kit comprehension).

218 Comments

Ninetales8/24/2018, 3:51:51 PM45 votes

Hello Meddler.

Having seen the changes to Yorick on the PBE server, I would like to bring notice to the direction Riot is taking with handling his issue of having a high winrate in low ELO ranges. You addressed in a recent Meddlers Thoughts that ideally you would like to reduce his winrate in low ELO but maintain his current state in high ELO, which can be found in this post. Please do not misunderstand my post, i am not suggesting that Yorick does not need a nerf. Instead, i am suggesting that if he is dealing too much damage than there are other ways of handling it than what is currently on PBE.

One key thing that I am afraid Riot is missing is that Yorick as a champion effectively teaches the player how to play the game. He rewards you for last hitting, teaches you to stay in lane long enough to get the tower (objective) and also heavily rewards the player that plays him as a split-pusher to take global objectives. These are skills that low ELO players will often overlook, and as a consequence, he will always maintain a high winrate in the lower brackets purely because the Yorick’s opponent will not have the guided direction that the Yorick player will have. In fact, I am especially worried that the proposed changes will not affect Yorick’s winrate at low ELO ranges at all – but will instead gut his high ELO winrate and viability.

Now onto the PBE changes, there has been a reduction in his per level AD gain to his Mist Walkers – in particularly around levels 6 to 9 – this value peaks at 12 less AD per ghoul (48 overall). Using sources such as League of Graphs, you can clearly see that the game duration for low ELO ranges around 30 minutes on average whereas the high ELO games usually sit around 26-27 minutes. This effectively means that the implemented change will be less likely to impact on low ELO games, since they are more likely to get to the point of the game where the difference evens out. Unfortunately, it also means that it will impact high ELO games because as they have a lower average game timer, there will be an emphasis on the point of the game where Yorick's Mist Walkers are taking the hardest hit from the nerfs.

I truly believe that these nerfs are in the wrong direction and would like to put some suggestions for consideration. These suggestions are outlined in my reddit post which is current on the front page, as well as another post written by another Yorick main.

Reddit post One

Reddit Post Two

If the intention is to lower his winrate in low ELO games without affecting his performance in high ELO, then perhaps:

  • Lower his Mist Walkers base damage, increase their AD ratio. This will reward Yorick players who play well and get an experience lead and/or invest into damage items. The raw damage will not be as high and instead you will have to buy damage to deal damage. If they invest into the damage items, they will be less tank and therefore easier to deal with. Finding a way to give them a higher base AD but instead making them scale off bonus AD would be a good starting point. The second reddit post linked had the idea of the Ghouls having a base attack damage of 15 while maintaining their current live values of per level bonus +3/+5/+10, but instead of a total attack damage scaling, give them a 50% bonus attack damage.
  • **Reimburse the damage nerf somewhere else onto his kit. **If the AI having heavier damage output is an issue, then perhaps adding it onto his Q or E ability will be a healthy change for the game. Higher ELO players are more likely to land skillshots and better use their spells, so rewarding those players with extra damage by landing his E is a good change in that regard.
  • Increase the size of the Mist Walkers click-box. As the purpose of the reddit post, many players find them difficult to click on which can cause them to click the ground and take unnecessary damage as a result. The Mist Walkers also give 5 gold per kill, so the player should be actively rewarded by killing the Mist Walkers whenever they are summoned. Not everyone that plays league of legends uses attack move, so this is a problem.

I would like to know your thoughts on our suggestions, your reasoning behind the proposed nerfs on PBE and your further intentions with our beloved gravedigger.

Thanks for reading,

Ninetales

YL 6668/24/2018, 5:59:28 PM8 votes

Will Wukong get a full VGU? He was supposed to be played as a bruiser like Jax or Irelia,but the only aviable build and playstyle is the assassin one. Maybe not a full VGU but a mini-rework like the xin one,since Wukong is a diver like xin. Or just a passive change and make him an assassin. I don't know what you guys want Wukong to be and I really want some info for our monkey

Wee Petal8/24/2018, 4:37:06 PM7 votes

Hi Meddler. Recently (iirc patch 8.12) Zyra's plants were changed to draw minion aggro to Zyra if they attack a champion. This change wasn't in the patch notes. Do you know if this was an undocumented intended change or simply a bug/accidental change?

Speaking of bugs. Zyra's plants are having issues targeting, well anything, of late, pretty sure whatever the issue is was introduced in the latest patch. They will regularly just ignore a target for a few seconds (sometimes longer).

Did someone mention Zyra bugs?

I haven't managed to replicate this in a live game (haven't had the time yet) but in practise mode, Zyra's E at rank 4 and 5 does not apply a high priority mark (the mark is applied at E rank 1-3). This means that plants will not switch to attack the rooted champion if they already have a priority target, and freshly spawned plants will simply attack the nearest target to them.

Here's a gif of it's intended result

https://gfycat.com/SilentGlitteringBluefish

Here's a gif of what happens at rank 4 and 5 E.

https://gfycat.com/AridBoilingIndianjackal

Here's a gif showing plants created by E simply attack the nearest target instead of the rooted target

https://gfycat.com/PalatableBriskBoutu

Here's it happening in a minion wave

https://gfycat.com/PresentSoulfulAustraliancurlew https://gfycat.com/UncommonTastyHornbill

FafliX8/24/2018, 3:55:47 PM7 votes

About the Garen and Yorick nerfs, any plans to maybe buff them in ways that would impact them more at higher levels of play maybe? Or at least some QoL changes? It just feels wrong to see champions straight nerfed that are still not good in Dia+, even if they are in lower tiers.

atlıkarınca8/24/2018, 4:04:55 PM5 votes

Hello Meddler.

Will we possibly see Lissandra passive at least on PBE before or during worlds?

Xaintrix8/24/2018, 4:27:59 PM5 votes

Any word on the Co-Op vs. AI work?

Zoli Ben8/24/2018, 4:40:13 PM5 votes

Hi Meddler! Any news on Urgot ult indicator that was promised in Ask Riot?

Allusions8/24/2018, 3:53:04 PM4 votes

Are the Rek'Sai buffs you mentioned near the beginning of this patch cycle no longer being looked into?

Especially 4U8/24/2018, 6:14:41 PM4 votes

Hey Meddler!

Can you consider trying out a different buff for wukong? the attack speed buff is nice for jungle but it doesn't help mid or top wukong at all. I feel like decreased cooldowns or a slightly longer stealth on W might be more impactful. These buffs can give wukong players more potential to show skill in utilizing cds.

Allusions8/24/2018, 5:55:32 PM4 votes

Meddler, I've already posted for today, but I guess I just want to vent at you a little bit. I and a few others from the Rek'Sai community have been active in these posts for the last week or two since you mentioned Rek'Sai buffs being looked at for 8.17 looking for context and bouncing some ideas around.

Usually you guys are pretty good with communicating what you guys are doing with posts like this and follow up contexts, or when plans change. For some reason, you have gone completely silent on this topic, which is frustrating.

We're not going to be angry if you say "hey, they got delayed" or "we changed our minds, she doesn't need them" or whatever. We know you're busy and you might not have enough time to explain your reasoning, but it's definitely frustrating for that point to have been actively brought up by you near the beginning of this PBE cycle and for it to be left up in the air without any closure.

No ill will or disrespect intended, just frustration.

Landorin8/24/2018, 3:57:32 PM4 votes

Hi Meddler,

Speaking of mastery curves, I'm curious how the semi-reverted assassins Rengar, Leblanc, and Fizz compare to their assassin class update selves. Is there any data on this or is it not disparate enough to be worth sharing?

Glory to God8/24/2018, 5:13:23 PM3 votes

Thoughts on item 2033 being taken on ranged midlaners?

VeXuM8/24/2018, 4:02:44 PM3 votes

Hey Meddler, I actually wanted to ask you:

  1. where can I find a graph of all champion mastery curves, to the best of your knowledge? I would love to be able to see which champions give you the most reward for putting in the hours with them.

  2. any thoughts on Statikk Shiv? Seems very outshined by rapid fire cannon for all champions except Quinn.

Thanks for your weekly posts!

Pokemonred2008/24/2018, 4:45:51 PM3 votes

Hey Meddler, can I ask a few questions regarding the upcoming preseason?

1: Are the current gold funneling penalties here to stay?

Originally, it was said that the Monster Hunter penalty on item 1041, item 1039, item 3706, and item 3715 was a temporary band-aid fix until a better solution could come in the preseason, but in the recent preseason post, Riot Scruffy said that the jungle is not getting changed. Does this mean that this penalty is here to stay into the (or even next season)?

2: Items:

item 3161 and item 3005 are currently Nexus Blitz exclusive, and you've explained why they may potentially need changes as we get closer to preseason. That I understand. What about other items, though? The first examples that come to mind are item 3056 and Banner of Command; earlier this season, Ohmwrecker was mentioned as an item that was potentially going to be reworked to have effects similar to demolish (though this has not been brought up in quite some time), and Banner of Command is an item that, while it had a decent niche, was deemed too unhealthy in its former state and needed to be temporarily retired until a reworked version could be created in a future preseason or midseason. Is this on the table for the Season 9's preseason/midseason, or is this something that we'll need to wait further down the road for?

3: Towers:

Are shield towers/botlane fortification/higher resistances on the table?

SilverRaza8/25/2018, 8:03:05 AM2 votes

fix Zac ? 32% winrate in probuilds and 43 % winrate in u.gg might wanna look at that

Draconic PoweR8/25/2018, 4:59:25 AM2 votes

Since it seems most of Riot are avoiding this question, I feel it's futile to even post this but what the heck.

Why is RekSai not being given any attention?? Nexus Blitz doesn't count, I'm talking about actual buffs to her in general. She's one of those champs that Riot seems to simply ignore balance wise and skin wise (though the only Rioters that responded on Social Media was their support team saying they hope she gets some love soon and Riot Stellari who talked about potential skin concepts for her).

It doesn't take a genius to see that her damage is lacking at the moment and that there are better champ choices than her. Stop ignoring the Queen and show her the balance and skin love she deserves please.

Buttsubushi8/25/2018, 7:22:47 AM2 votes

Thoughts Stormrazor? From what is on the PBE, this will be the 3rd AD nerf in a row.

It is always too strong on assassins (Quinn included), whenever it is just barely viable on scaling crit marksman. ADCs need the game to end at 20mins to get value out of it. I myself build either BT (play super safe which isnt fun for anyone), or sit on BF+pick till zeal items get finished. In fact SR is only good on champs that gain bonus AD from their kits: Rengar, Jhin and to my surprise, Zed. SR has an easier trigger condition to Duskblade, is cheaper, can back on a BF sword for a simple spike, scales with the more AD items (and AD reaping), and gives free MS that you would lose from turning off ghostblade, and AS that helps splitpushing. Shiv+SR can give you more burst and stickiness per gold than Duskblade and co.

MirirLightHammer8/31/2018, 12:06:23 PM2 votes

how is the loading screen bug a "low priority"? people are getting punished for YOUR mistakes!

euprates8/25/2018, 1:01:15 PM2 votes

hello meddler

I want shyvana and modekaizer's dragon passive must be changed some other things in Nexus Blitz.

Reign of Squid8/26/2018, 6:52:34 PM2 votes

Sona VGU when ?

Ahris8/24/2018, 9:02:20 PM1 votes

Will you give compensation to domination tree reliant champs?

For example, Ahri? Thanks!