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Quick Gameplay Thoughts: January 16

RiotMeddler··1 votes·64,228 views

Hi folks,


Usual Disclaimers

These posts will often contain talk about future work we're doing, or planning to do, that isn't yet guaranteed to ship. The nature of the work could change or, depending on what we discover, projects mentioned may get put delayed or even stopped. If you'd like to see a Tweet whenever a new one of these posts goes up: https://twitter.com/RiotMeddler


Partial Updates in 2018

Something we're going to be doing a bit more of this year is updating a single element on a champion that's not up to the standard of that character as a whole. We've been doing that for quite a while with gameplay and things like updating old loading screen art. We're looking to do more of it for other stuff as well too though.

First up, probably in 8.3, will be new visual effects for Cho'gath. Cho's base VFX are really rough. His model's showing its age somewhat too, but not to the extent his spells are. We're not expecting we'll do a VGU on him for quite a while, so addressing his spells in the meantime makes sense.

Not all of these projects will be visual. Our next target after that's likely to be redoing the VO for a champ whose voice over is pretty lacking relative to their other elements. More details on that soonish, all going according to plan.


Lucian

We're looking at some changes to Lucian, aimed at making him less level dependent (equalize him more between mid and bot lane) and rewarding him more for building crit. Those won't be in 8.2, should be in 8.3 or 8.4 though.


My Role at Riot

Figured it might be good to talk a bit about what I do at Riot. Help folks understand why I talk about the things I do, what questions I've got the context to answer, offer a bit more understanding as to what different people at Riot do etc.

  • My role is 'Lead Gameplay Designer'. That means I spend most of my time working with/supporting the work of the gameplay teams which make new champions, design items, work on features like runes or the health bar changes, do game balance etc. That's the stuff I talk about the most as a result.

  • I'm only occasionally involved with some of the other teams that do things like skins, clubs, the new client, champion mastery, Clash (tournaments) etc. With some exceptions I can't usefully talk about those sorts of things (I either won't know the answers myself or won't be sure what it's appropriate to talk about publicly).

  • My days involve a lot of helping teams co-ordinate, building long term plans, managing people, talking through design problems/goals with people and similar stuff. I don't do much hands on building of stuff anymore (direct design's not the core of my role, in contrast to when I used work on champions previously).

  • I'm not the head of the balance team. The team that does most patch to patch balance work (Live Gameplay) is one of the teams I'm responsible for, but I'm not one of the primary people picking targets and building balance changes for each patch. I'll offer feedback on both goals and specific changes, to the team, and our overarching balance approach is something I'm heavily involved in, so certainly feel free to hold me responsible for the state of balance. Picking who to buff/nerf and what numbers to change isn't something I do much of though. I do talk a lot about balance, because it's a subject of a lot of interest to you folks, but I'm almost always talking about our views as an organization, not my personal opinions.


Lower Framerates recently for some people

Don't have anything new to report on this front yet, we're still working on it though, not a forgotten issue. More to come as soon as we've got something new to share (exact cause of problem, how we'll fix etc).

http://ddragon.leagueoflegends.com/cdn/6.24.1/img/champion/Ziggs.png

363 Comments

Glory to God17 votes

Not all of these projects will be visual. **Our next target after that's likely to be redoing the VO for a champ whose voice over is pretty lacking relative to their other elements. **More details on that soonish, all going according to plan.

YES Please MissFortune MissFortune MissFortune MissFortune MissFortune MissFortune Varus Varus Varus Varus Varus Varus Varus Varus

Raxistaicho14 votes

Is it possible that you guys could make it so pinging Kayn's portrait when he has a transformation ready could ping to his team that he has it ready and/or how much time the other has left? There's times when I really wanna get back to base to transform but my team is insisting on forcing fights and I can't afford to leave them.

RiotMeddler12 votes

We'll give that a look. Not sure personally how easy it would be to hook the existing ping system up to that portrait (code's not my thing). Seems like a good use case to support though that we should at least check out.

Be Kind Rewind12 votes

Hey Meddler. I'd like to bring up a serious concern that I think has flown under the balance team's radar.

It is about Karthus - but not about him being too weak. Our concern is that every change made to Karthus (or indirectly to Karthus) over the past couple of years has lowered his skillcap drastically. Each change ends up 'power neutral' on average but neuters his best-case potential, which is essentially all Karthus has - very passionate one-tricks interested in mastering him. He's become drastically less rewarding to master, losing his level 2 all-in potential, his level 6 kill possibility (with the advent of stopwatch), and his mid-game 1v1 power (with the halving of Rylai's effectiveness on him...)

A couple of such changes were, for example:

  1. The Wall slow nerf, which made landing Q's more difficult, was said to be because he should have to chain it into his Rylai's slow. But then...

  2. Rylai's was lowered to 20% slow after years of applying a 35% slow on isolated Karthus Q's. His most skill-based (Q-dueling based) playstyle was crippled by this change, paired with the wall slow nerf.

  3. The removal of DFT being compensated with by a 15% AP ratio increase on his R. This change summarizes my entire concern - Karthus before used to be able to poke enemies out with skillfully isolated Q's, due to its single-target nature applying the full DFT burn. The removal of DFT removed his ability to duel early, but the team compensated by dumping more power into his lategame walk-into-the-enemy-team-and-press-R playstyle. The generic, AFK farm with RoA and never interact with enemies, beginner Karthus playstyle

This is my concern. Every change has made landing Q's on him less and less rewarding, or more and more difficult, while pumping power instead into ambient damage from his late-game suicide playstyle. I won't even mention what Stopwatch did to Karthus at a high level. But it may be worth considering. The removal of DFT wasn't the only hit to Karthus. His only playstyle left is 'afk farm for 30 minutes without ever interacting with the opponent, then suicide and press R'. He used to have so much versatility and threat early.

Even popular high-elo Korean Karthus streamers have dejectedly been forced to abandon the champion, such as Trisexual and Zousenpai. He just doesn't fly at a high level anymore...

Is there any chance you could bring this up to the team -- possibly look into shifting some power back into his actual skill-based playstyle (Q, W) rather than his ambient 'you die because im standing by you' (E, R) playstyle?

It'd be a very small reverse-Azir/reverse-Ryze project. (Increasing his performance variance based on skill/experience instead of leaving him so mediocre at all levels and bad at high ELO.)

Thank you for your notice & response!

Be Kind Rewind

item 3070 Karthus item 3070

RiotRiot MapleNectar18 votes

Hey man, duly noted - can't promise any immediate changes - but some of these arguments really resonated with me personally. I'm not a game designer so there may be things I'm not thinking about, but I'm the product lead for the team and can at the very least bring these to light and have a conversation about them.

D2Vincent4 votes

As another Karthus main, this makes me happy that at least there's some talks hopefully about this :) While it's wayyy too early to talk timeframes, I was wondering that if these do end up giving our Lich some changes, how high of a priority would the changes be?

tampon K1NG3 votes

I logged in just to upvote you, fellow Karthus main <3

I am Razgriz3 votes

I've said a lot of similar things about Nocturne. You have very valid points.

Barramundi7 votes

Any updates on Swain? I won't take "soon" for an answer [slayer-jinx-unamused]

RiotMeddler65 votes

[{quoted}](name=Duh Penetration,realm=EUW,application-id=A7LBtoKc,discussion-id=5AwuwIFf,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2018-01-16T16:24:19.928+0000)

Any updates on Swain? I won't take "soon" for an answer

Soon.

Feel free not to take it.

Sahn Uzal7 votes

on a scale of 1 to 10, how birb is he?

RiotMeddler33 votes

[{quoted}](name=Tidal Tyrant,realm=EUW,application-id=A7LBtoKc,discussion-id=5AwuwIFf,comment-id=000300000001,timestamp=2018-01-16T16:32:35.113+0000)

on a scale of 1 to 10, how birb is he?

Free birb.

I am Razgriz3 votes

And this bird you cannot cha~ange.

FlufyBunnyRengar5 votes

What are your thoughts on Rumble? You mentioned a while ago he could take some buffs

WHAT21A4 votes

Any update on the potential Zac changes you hinted at a while back?

RiotRiot MapleNectar6 votes

We ended up shelving the changes to Zac for now. They revolved primarily around his Q and some of the rules around it - but he landed in a spot where he didn't end up needing the changes (they would have resulted in a power down for the Zac player). We may revisit him at some point in the future, but for now there's no active work on him.

TomiMan74 votes

Hey

What are your thoughts about Brand Brand after the buffs? Also could you head over to this thread on Reddit to confirms 3 seperate buggs regarding Brand Brand ? I'm trying to get in touch with you guys for over 2 months by now.

https://www.reddit.com/r/BrandMains/comments/7q0oxf/tripple_brand_bug_in_a_39_second_video/

RiotRiot MapleNectar5 votes

Hey man,

I recognize your name from one of my other threads. I forgot to ever get back to you :(. We've looked into the brand ult fizzling bug, and while we saw several videos about it, we were unable to reproduce it yet consistently enough to find a fix. In regards to the other two those seem like a pretty big pain the butt, especially the passive circle not hitting people who seemed to be inside of it.

Chess4354 votes

A lot of times I'll notice these threads a few hours after the fact, is it still worth commenting later in the day, or will it just be missed?

RiotMeddler4 votes

In terms of discussion these threads seem to be pretty active for about a day. If you're looking to catch me specifically, I'll generally check back in sometime in the afternoon and/or evening. Most of the time I put aside though's in the morning while they're newer.

Lil Homie busta4 votes

Hi again Meddler.

Can Riot share a little more of information about the Bruiser-related keystone mentioned in the 01/10 quick gameplay thoughs that's currently in internal testing? A bit of information like how it works (stacks, 3 hit, instant effect) or which tree it will go? Thanks for any response.

{quoted}

New keystone went into internal testing yesterday. I haven't played it myself yet, like it on paper though. If that goes well should be able to at least share tooltips within a couple of weeks (would take longer than that to get into a patch given need to build art for it). It that doesn't go well timing's uncertain.

RiotMeddler5 votes

Nothing final yet, currently though we're looking at something that:

  • Ramps in offensive output over time
  • Is at least somewhat dependent on being tanky
  • Could arguably go in either Resolve or Precision, though is more likely to go in Resolve (push builds towards getting a bit more survivability in them, rather than pushing towards damage as primary style as often)

Could all change depending on testing though.

Carnicore4 votes

Could you just bring back Fervor?

Wet Dryman3 votes

Hello Meddler Any update on Gragas? You guys tested E Flash combo removal you were talking about few months ago or maybe you did other tests or have other plans? Also what are your thoughts on his current state (and that this state seems to reoccur every year since his rework)?

RiotMeddler7 votes

Still want to look more into whether we should take that combo out. Not the right time to do so though, given he's on the weak side right now. Wouldn't make any changes to him until we see where Runic Echoes changes land at the least and how that impacts him. Hoping to not put so much power back into him that he goes back to competitive pick/ban either, which is one of the reasons we haven't rushed to buff him.

Altarious3 votes

Hey meddler, good morning (just wake up) why equalize Lucian between mid and bot? Lucian is suppose to be a lane dominant adc if you equalize that for both mid and bot in the long run he will get picked in the mid lane which has just led to him being nerfed to the point it is a joke as an adc Lucian item 3070

RiotMeddler11 votes

Intent here is to move power away from levels so that he can duo lane more effectively again. We think right now he's too pulled towards solo laning by both levels (solo XP) and items (non crit).

Altarious1 votes

{quoted}

Intent here is to move power away from levels so that he can duo lane more effectively again. We think right now he's too pulled towards solo laning by both levels (solo XP) and items (non crit).

can i expect a reduction to his Q ad scaling and adding a crit chance scaling?

RiotMeddler6 votes

From memory we're testing passive damage starting a bit higher (50-60%, instead of 40-60%) so levels matter less in that regard, plus second shot crit damage at 75% instead of 50%. Those aren't final changes necessarily, but an example of the sorts of things we're looking at for him.

XxxLumberJackxxX3 votes

Would you say you will do Voice Over Updates on champions with... an OK voice over right now?

Would you say that?

RiotMeddler6 votes

I'd be super sad if a champion with an OK voice no longer had an OK voice. That would not be OK.

I don't believe we've got any plans for VO changes to him, at least not at present, and I'm confident even if we did we'd be keeping his personality the same.

XxxLumberJackxxX1 votes

{quoted}

I'd be super sad if a champion with an OK voice no longer had an OK voice. That would not be OK.

I don't believe we've got any plans for VO changes to him, at least not at present, and I'm confident even if we did we'd be keeping his personality the same.

Just give him like 3 more lines. pretty plz nething

Glory ln Death5 votes

We definitely need "Okie-Dokie" in his VO.

TNing of Pine3 votes

This is probably outside your wheelhouse a bit, but is there any team at Riot that has ownership over the new player experience? The tutorial seems to languish in a rather outdated state, for example, and there's some pretty basic parts of gameplay that you can't learn at all by playing against bots: bots don't gank, jungle, go for dragon or baron, use vision, etc. (Did anyone teach Ryze bot that his ult got reworked yet, by the way?)

Obviously it makes perfect sense that you (Riot) would devote most resources to the things that are important to the existing playerbase, but I have to presume that bringing in new players is important as well to sustain the playerbase in the long term, let alone grow it. Could you give any insight on whether there's any team focused on this sort of thing, and maybe see if some of those people might drop in on the boards or Reddit at some point to give some insight into what they're working on?

RiotMeddler5 votes

We've got some people who'll be looking at the new player experience this year. That work's still in the planning stages, so can't share any details yet and it'll be quite a while before most of it goes out.

I'm sure we'll talk about various bits of work once we're clearer on what we're doing. Talking about new player stuff can be a bit different to most topics though because the audience you're most interested in (people who haven't played at all yet, or have only just started) generally aren't found on a game's forums or other community sites as much. Feedback that does crop up is sometimes more from other types of player with an interest in the same space (e.g. smurfs, or people wanting to make 1 trick accounts). That's no reason not to talk of course, but it changes how some feedback gets interpreted.

TNing of Pine4 votes

Fair enough, and great to hear that you have people working on it!

My own interest in the topic comes mainly from (a) remembering all-too-well how painful it was trying to transition to PvP after leveling all the way to 30 against only bots, and (b) the fact that I'm currently introducing my son to the game. The harshness of the new player experience also makes me reluctant to recommend League to friends who don't play already.

RiotSparkle4 votes

If you (or your son) have more specific thoughts on this topic, feel free to shoot them to me here. Always open to hearing about specific moments where newer players get stuck. :)

LostFr0st1 votes

If there was a way to give new players a heads up about playing with a veteran player vs alone and how much more difficult the match will be due to that it would be cool.

Most veterans who introduce people don't understand that Riot will put a smurf on the opposing team since they too are a smurf and thereby think the "new player experience is harsh" due to this. True new players who queue alone (or with other LEGIT new players) don't have harsh games.

RiotSparkle3 votes

This is an interesting point that I've never thought about. Thanks for pointing out a possible problem spot. :)

Xeneth1 votes

When attempting to introduce my SO to League, the biggest barrier to entry isn't actually the new player experience so much as the control scheme; She plays a lot of VainGlory on tablet, so she's familiar with lots of the difficult MOBA mechanics, but without a history of using mouse+keyboard to play games, it's completely unapproachable.

I would love to be able to set LoL up on a Windows Tablet or touch-enabled PC and have that experience translate over, even though I understand the CONSIDERABLE UX challenges creating such a build presents.

RiotSparkle3 votes

Thank you for the perspective!

I actually personally also had some trouble with the controls when I started League but for a slightly different reason. I played almost exclusively FPS or 3rd person adventure games (mostly on console, but also Counterstrike) when I was growing up, and controlling the camera in League was a HUGE challenge for me. Basically, I totally empathize with the problem of the controls being difficult to pick up

Ahristocats3 votes

I have so much much much questions to you meddler but it's impossible to bring them all in one post

i'll just take the most important ones

Thresh is going to be heavily nerfed in next patch. Coin is statistically worse on thresh, and it's easily understandable since it makes him squishy and thresh doesn't have an inbuilt sustain making him an easy target for poke supports Problem is that he's going to either build coin, or build targon which will be nerfed on ranged champions

Jhin buffs got cancelled months ago, and now he seems to be the most terrible adc even more terrible than jinx

i'm pretty sure that the balance team didn't plan anything, i'm just asking your own thoughts as a person about those champions

RiotRiot MapleNectar8 votes

Thresh is someone that came up in a fair number of conversations last week actually. One of the designers on the team was looking into what we could ship for him in 8.3 as compensation for losing some of the effectiveness of relic (could be something as simple as hp/5), but he's definitely on our radar.

We have the planning for 8.3 tonight, I'd be surprised if jhin doesn't come up naturally, but I'll make sure to bring him up since you're right, those buffs were cancelled and he's dropped quite a bit since then (at the time he had become near 100% pick ban in pro and buffing him just felt...off given the number of things in the sorcery tree that were propping him up). I think there's a lot more room to give him some strength back now.

Piltover Customs3 votes

Multiple weeks ago we were told (by you) that we would get reasoning on why Heimerdinger RQ was being gutted by half (less damage at max than before at one). No one has posted about it or numbers or anything of the sort.

Why promise something and never come back to it?

RiotMeddler6 votes

We felt Heimer was overperforming, including at high Elo where traditionally he's been weak. Some of that was changing state of the game, some of it likely Stopwatch removing some of his early game weakness in some situations. Our conclusion was that RQ damage made it excessively hard to all in him in lane, even in situations where that should be an appropriate play. We felt we had to take a lot of damage out of the beam in order to get a meaningful impact there and so far at least it doesn't look like we've hit Heimer too hard.

Fasmodey1 votes

Xerath lost a bit power due to Sorcery rune nerfs. Do you still plan to nerf him?

LCK doesn't ban or pick him anymore.

RiotMeddler4 votes

Xerath hasn't cropped up in balance talks for a while. We've got our 8.3 planning session coming up soon though, will let you folks know if he's back on the radar at all there.

Fasmodey1 votes

Would you consider him nerf worthy though? Just asking your individual opinion, through statistics, observation and your gameplay experience.

Punching Top1 votes

Don't know if it's the right place to ask, but have you guys considered bringing back the twin ghosts item? With some decent tuning it might turn into a real viable item, given the fact that most mages are building Frost queens right now and it's getting "removed" soon.

RiotMeddler5 votes

We'll be bringing it back in some form soon.

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