Quick Gameplay Thoughts: January 19

RiotMeddler·1/19/2018, 3:54:43 PM·1 votes·69,221 views

Hey all,


Usual Disclaimers

These posts will often contain talk about future work we're doing, or planning to do, that isn't yet guaranteed to ship. The nature of the work could change or, depending on what we discover, projects mentioned may get put delayed or even stopped. If you'd like to see a Tweet whenever a new one of these posts goes up: https://twitter.com/RiotMeddler


8.3 Balance Changes

As previously discussed 8.3, like all odd numbered patches for at least a while, is going to be a small patch in terms of balance changes. Even numbered patches will be larger than normal. Things we'll be looking at for 8.3 below. Unlikely much else gets added and possible some things get pushed to 8.4. For small patch balance changes we're generally focused on things that are either in urgent need and/or are fairly straightforward to work on (e.g. base stat buffs), though there'll be some exceptions to those rules of course.

Nerfs

  • Jarvan

  • Katarina (previous nerfs didn't do enough)

  • Magical Footwear

  • Kalista (potentially taking power from her ult)

  • Manaflow Band (less certain on this one, but looking at it again at least)

Buffs

  • Master Yi

  • Tryndamere

  • Caitlyn

  • Volibear

  • Viktor


Counterplay

Figured it might be good to talk a bit more about part of our philosophy on counterplay. To start by stating the obvious, we think it's really important that champions have counterplay. There should be things you can do to foil your opponent's plans, ways to counter their actions and accomplish what you want instead. That's not the same though as putting counterplay in every element of a kit and every moment playing against it.

Champions as a whole should have counterplay, they should also have moments of reliability though, moments that give them a payoff for successfully dealing with their weaknesses. Any easy example of that's Nasus Q. If Nasus is on top of you and has a bunch of stacks you're often just screwed - it's a basic attack modifier there's no way to outplay at that point. There's a lot of counterplay to Nasus as a whole though around keeping distance from him and shutting down his ability to build stacks and needed items in the first place. Counterplay's spread different parts of the game, from how you mechanically use your abilities, to how you play strategically (e.g. when to roam), to what items to build, to what champs you pick, to taking advantage of long enemy CDs etc. Sometimes conversations around counterplay get really focused purely on 'can I dodge the ability' and/or 'what can I buy to counter this champion'. Both of those can be good types of counterplay certainly, tunnel visioning only on those risks ignoring a lot of other good options though.


Stuff on PBE that doesn't ship

Something you might see a bit more of, particularly during small patch development cycles, is content on the PBE that doesn't ship in the next patch. It's likely some things end up on the PBE during the 8.3 cycle that will end up in 8.4 for example. That could include things like Rengar changes or items with Frost Queen's/Talisman's actives. We'll be putting things like that on there earlier to get both more visibility into bugs and feedback on gameplay direction.

http://ddragon.leagueoflegends.com/cdn/6.24.1/img/champion/Ziggs.png

408 Comments

World Ender1/19/2018, 4:17:09 PM59 votes

When will top lane be fun to play again for bruisers?

Tanks win nearly every matchup top. If you want to beat a tank, you either play another tank or a ranged bully like GP, Gnar, Teemo, Jayce, etc. Bruisers have no room to breathe unless you're lucky enough to face another bruiser. And even then, how are those bruisers supposed to impact the game when the entire game revolves around bot lane? Top laners have been forced to take TP for multiple seasons, just so they have a chance to impact bot lane. Gone are the days when top lane was skill based, laners took ignite, exhaust, etc and actually FOUGHT their laner. Now, if a bruiser tries to fight a tank or a ranged bully, they simply lose. Bruisers are totally reliant on the jungler to get ahead, but why would the jungler gank top when they can gank bot, get 2 kills, and get first tower+dragon?

Bruisers have had the short end of the stick for so long now and it seems like hardly anything is ever done to fix it. ADC's abuse their items, and so those items get nerfed. Tanks have better base damages, more survivability, and more ability to impact the game in teamfights. Tanks also have the ability to splitpush because they have so much AOE. Have you watched LCS? The last time a bruiser was picked and tried to splitpush, the tank Maokai or whatever can just sit under his turret and waveclear.

Tanks are encouraged to build tank items, and many get damage for building these tank items. Meanwhile bruisers have to build some damage items to be a threat, but if they do this also have to build some resist items to be able to survive since they are naturally squishy. Not to mention tank items are much less expensive than damage items that bruisers want to build. Pretty much every class has a cheaper build than bruisers right now. Crit is cheap. Lethality is cheap. AP is cheap. Defensive items are cheap. Meanwhile a bruiser that needs some combo of Titanic, Triforce or Sterak's to get their spike has to spend several hundred more gold than other classes to get their items.

Where are bruisers supposed to be strong? Early? Mid? Late? Right now they don't seem to be strong in any situation. They get beaten in lane, they have less impact in the mid game than tanks and assassins, and late game they're usually relegated to splitpushing because every tank is more useful in teamfights than them.

I really would like to know what Riot are doing to remedy this situation, if they are doing anything at all. The top performing champions are all tanks or champions that bully melees. That should say something about the state of bruisers.

IxtaliKing1/19/2018, 4:43:11 PM15 votes

Hey Meddler, any news on Karma?

Warden Karma1/19/2018, 4:45:34 PM13 votes

Hey Meddler,

In the light of the upcoming mechanical update for Karma, could you share some information as to how big her update will be? Will it be like Xins update or smaller? Also any thoughts on which abilities you are looking in? What are the aims of the changes (more mage/support direction)?

Thank you for your time :)

Wukong Airlines1/19/2018, 8:00:46 PM13 votes

@Meddler, Can we get any thoughts on MonkeyKing ? anything, future plans, his current state at the moment [[although its very well known his current state is a disaster]], and why wasnt he touched for 4 straight years? His passive is non-existent, he has no room for creative playstyle an outplaying anyone. WAnna play him toplane? will get out-poked out sustained and bullied out of lane easily any level given. Wanna play him in the jungle? plenty of room for counter jungling him and keeping him behind , he has no extra damage or any advantage or fast clear, no sustain and pre-6 no ganks potential at all. Even at level 6 his gank is a hit or miss with all the CC available in most champs.

I've been seeing A LOT of Shyvana lately, she's a beast her clear is the fastest it's ridiculous + the amount of damage she does for a Tanky champions is so high you cant duel her at all, u need at least 3 to stop her lategame! this is the huge gap you've created between champions , creating beasts while keeping others behind and literally unplayable.

I just would like to know WHY aren't you answering our questions regarding Wukong? Why cant you give him the Ekko and Jinx treatment?

ƒrostγ1/19/2018, 4:24:10 PM12 votes

Still not a single word on Lissandra. I should probably start to main tanks or adc, riot cares only about them. ( yes, I'm salty )

Marlon1951/19/2018, 4:16:53 PM11 votes

Hey meddler. Anything on Lissandra coming Soon?

HP Crookshanks1/19/2018, 4:34:14 PM9 votes

Nothing about Ahri, Lissandra or Syndra? item 3070 item 3070

yoshi27901/19/2018, 4:41:08 PM7 votes

Hey Meddler! Any news on Lissandra? I think we can all agree that she isn't in a good spot atm... :( What do you think of her?

I HATE ARURF1/19/2018, 4:27:38 PM7 votes

Excuse me if I missed some changes on the PBE but what are your thoughts on Vayne at the moment? She's probably the strongest ADC right now and one of the most overperforming champions in the game. Are you looking into some nerfs for her? On a similar note Gangplank is also doing very well toplane (although nowhere near Vayne), I know you previously said you're still looking into it have you clarified your thoughts on the matter? I personally tend to believe some base stat or W nerfs (reducing his overall sustain in lane or making his orange be more rewarding when used properly, something like lowering the overall heal but increasing the heal if he cleanses CC with it but I suppose that's a stretch) would suffice but he does need some changes imo.

Śhunpo1/19/2018, 11:49:24 PM6 votes

So....you're nerfing Katarina and not the runes she's abusing? Electrocute and Sudden Impact are broken runes, and the fact you haven't touched them first is very confusing. Also the bonus AD/AP upon a kill with Coup de Grace, you can just remove that.

Also, a good way to nerf her without actually nerfing her specifically is to not let Gunblade count towards a proc of Electrocute.

No damage nerfs to Zoe who's still sitting a 90%+ ban rate? Understandable.

Also, this might help you out in understanding why Kat's winrate is so high: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6FvJocbkfcQ&feature=youtu.be&t=1175

Jinzo Torrance1/19/2018, 3:55:57 PM5 votes

Hey Meddler, why did you guys hit the ratio on Malzahar Q? Last time you said you were looking to reduce the damage his Voidlings do to minions so he shoves less hard, hitting Q ratio, while hurting his waveclear also hurts his ability to poke late game, is this a thing you also want to hit?

Also wanted to share some Malzahar gameplay bugs since when I posted them on Bug Reports section some patches ago I got no response:

  • Malzahar tether damage will still go through even if Malzahar dies or interrupts the channel (probably stops if you break the intended maximum tether range?)
  • Malzahar Voidlings are unaffected by the Ravenous Hunter rune, Heimerdinger and Zyra plants heal them so it seems a bug that Malzahar Voidlings don't heal him
Aatroxs Legacy1/19/2018, 4:00:29 PM5 votes

Why the nerfs on Kat? She only stomps in plat under, any higher and she's only played by one tricks because people actually understand how to play against her.

iahim981/19/2018, 8:50:05 PM4 votes

Hey meddler, can you tell us some of the difference between a big patch and a small patch? The 8.2 patch seems rather average in terms of champions balance (doesn't feel anything big beside the nunu buffs), the thing that makes the patch big for me are the support items rework and runes changes, so my question is: does the difference between a big patch and a small patch are the potential big item changes and big champion changes (beside champs reworks that can be in either of them), while the small patch will mostly have numerical changes like 7.24 b?

Also what are your thoughts about duskblade? AD assassins seem to be balanced around it, but the item itself lacks counter play, giving huge AD on a auto which are mostly undodgeable and bringing back the "lol one-shot" in less then a second without even using ultimates (zed and blue kayn being the biggest offenders). Now my biggest issue with the item is that it doesn't feel like I can outplay it, I can't dodge/block the damage as it is on a auto and I can't actually wait out for duskblade to wear off as most assassins have a way of getting a second proc in their kits.

Risk of Fate1/19/2018, 3:58:00 PM4 votes

[deleted]

Johan141/19/2018, 3:59:29 PM4 votes

Still nothing about the buisers keystone??

PeachyBubbleStar1/19/2018, 4:25:26 PM3 votes

Hi Meddler!~First of all YAY CAITLYN BUFFS! lol, but i have a quick question(s), is there any information regarding champions that have yet to get new skins and are in need of them? Taliyah is my gurl and i'm kinda scared and need comfort that she'll see some skin love ;-; (aside from the SSG stuff) ALSO side question Whats going on with Jinx i heard she was getting buffed? or did that already happen orrr? btw Illaoi is super scary rn so that's a thing heh... ;-;

Illâoi Evê Siôn1/19/2018, 4:00:36 PM2 votes

About stuff on the PBE that doesn't ship, is there anything in the current cycle that won't or isn't likely to be in 8.2?

EROTIC RAID BOSS1/19/2018, 3:59:50 PM1 votes

On the subject of counterplay, how do you think the azir rework landed?

I'm a big fan of that champion and wanna know if it's gonna be safe to play him without him getting nerfed back down to being really weak again

Illâoi Evê Siôn1/19/2018, 4:15:21 PM1 votes

Hey Meddler,

it's been a long time since it was last mentioned (I think) but is there any news on how the Ohmwrecker experiments are faring? I think someone wanted to try out Demolish on it?