Quick Gameplay Thoughts: January 19

RiotMeddler·Jan 19, 2018·1 votes·69,221 views

Hey all,

Usual Disclaimers

These posts will often contain talk about future work we're doing, or planning to do, that isn't yet guaranteed to ship. The nature of the work could change or, depending on what we discover, projects mentioned may get put delayed or even stopped. If you'd like to see a Tweet whenever a new one of these posts goes up: https://twitter.com/RiotMeddler

8.3 Balance Changes

As previously discussed 8.3, like all odd numbered patches for at least a while, is going to be a small patch in terms of balance changes. Even numbered patches will be larger than normal. Things we'll be looking at for 8.3 below. Unlikely much else gets added and possible some things get pushed to 8.4. For small patch balance changes we're generally focused on things that are either in urgent need and/or are fairly straightforward to work on (e.g. base stat buffs), though there'll be some exceptions to those rules of course.

Nerfs

Jarvan
Katarina (previous nerfs didn't do enough)
Magical Footwear
Kalista (potentially taking power from her ult)
Manaflow Band (less certain on this one, but looking at it again at least)

Buffs

Master Yi
Tryndamere
Caitlyn
Volibear
Viktor

Counterplay

Figured it might be good to talk a bit more about part of our philosophy on counterplay. To start by stating the obvious, we think it's really important that champions have counterplay. There should be things you can do to foil your opponent's plans, ways to counter their actions and accomplish what you want instead. That's not the same though as putting counterplay in every element of a kit and every moment playing against it.

Champions as a whole should have counterplay, they should also have moments of reliability though, moments that give them a payoff for successfully dealing with their weaknesses. Any easy example of that's Nasus Q. If Nasus is on top of you and has a bunch of stacks you're often just screwed - it's a basic attack modifier there's no way to outplay at that point. There's a lot of counterplay to Nasus as a whole though around keeping distance from him and shutting down his ability to build stacks and needed items in the first place. Counterplay's spread different parts of the game, from how you mechanically use your abilities, to how you play strategically (e.g. when to roam), to what items to build, to what champs you pick, to taking advantage of long enemy CDs etc. Sometimes conversations around counterplay get really focused purely on 'can I dodge the ability' and/or 'what can I buy to counter this champion'. Both of those can be good types of counterplay certainly, tunnel visioning only on those risks ignoring a lot of other good options though.

Stuff on PBE that doesn't ship

Something you might see a bit more of, particularly during small patch development cycles, is content on the PBE that doesn't ship in the next patch. It's likely some things end up on the PBE during the 8.3 cycle that will end up in 8.4 for example. That could include things like Rengar changes or items with Frost Queen's/Talisman's actives. We'll be putting things like that on there earlier to get both more visibility into bugs and feedback on gameplay direction.

http://ddragon.leagueoflegends.com/cdn/6.24.1/img/champion/Ziggs.png

408 Comments

World EnderJan 19, 201859 votes

When will top lane be fun to play again for bruisers?

Tanks win nearly every matchup top. If you want to beat a tank, you either play another tank or a ranged bully like GP, Gnar, Teemo, Jayce, etc. Bruisers have no room to breathe unless you're lucky enough to face another bruiser. And even then, how are those bruisers supposed to impact the game when the entire game revolves around bot lane? Top laners have been forced to take TP for multiple seasons, just so they have a chance to impact bot lane. Gone are the days when top lane was skill based, laners took ignite, exhaust, etc and actually FOUGHT their laner. Now, if a bruiser tries to fight a tank or a ranged bully, they simply lose. Bruisers are totally reliant on the jungler to get ahead, but why would the jungler gank top when they can gank bot, get 2 kills, and get first tower+dragon?

Bruisers have had the short end of the stick for so long now and it seems like hardly anything is ever done to fix it. ADC's abuse their items, and so those items get nerfed. Tanks have better base damages, more survivability, and more ability to impact the game in teamfights. Tanks also have the ability to splitpush because they have so much AOE. Have you watched LCS? The last time a bruiser was picked and tried to splitpush, the tank Maokai or whatever can just sit under his turret and waveclear.

Tanks are encouraged to build tank items, and many get damage for building these tank items. Meanwhile bruisers have to build some damage items to be a threat, but if they do this also have to build some resist items to be able to survive since they are naturally squishy. Not to mention tank items are much less expensive than damage items that bruisers want to build. Pretty much every class has a cheaper build than bruisers right now. Crit is cheap. Lethality is cheap. AP is cheap. Defensive items are cheap. Meanwhile a bruiser that needs some combo of Titanic, Triforce or Sterak's to get their spike has to spend several hundred more gold than other classes to get their items.

Where are bruisers supposed to be strong? Early? Mid? Late? Right now they don't seem to be strong in any situation. They get beaten in lane, they have less impact in the mid game than tanks and assassins, and late game they're usually relegated to splitpushing because every tank is more useful in teamfights than them.

I really would like to know what Riot are doing to remedy this situation, if they are doing anything at all. The top performing champions are all tanks or champions that bully melees. That should say something about the state of bruisers.

Illâoi Evê SiônJan 19, 20182 votes

I assume after the Aftershock changes and the Kleptomancy nerfs it will be more diverse. And after the new Keystone comes out in 8.4 (maybe?), hopefully alongside other changes to Runes that they are currently testing, it should be 'fun' again.

World EnderJan 19, 201810 votes

Aftershock is getting buffed, giving more armor. Early game tanks who proc Aftershock will now get like 140 armor. Bruisers cannot trade into that in any world. The damage is lowered a bit? So what? Tanks right now win is sustained fights because they have so much base damage and can survive so long. The Aftershock damage was not the problem.

Klepto nerfs. Not going to do anything. Champs that run Klepto will still run Klepto. And will still get item spikes faster than their opponents in addition to all the free combat potions, mana potions, health potions, and gold. Most abusers of Klepto were in the past gated by things like having no sustain or limited mana pools. Klepto fixes all those issues. Just nerfing the values without systematically changing the rune to be more fair will do nothing.

MordepoolJan 19, 20187 votes

{quoted}

Aftershock is getting buffed, giving more armor. Early game tanks who proc Aftershock will now get like 140 armor. Bruisers cannot trade into that in any world. The damage is lowered a bit? So what? Tanks right now win is sustained fights because they have so much base damage and can survive so long. The Aftershock damage was not the problem.

Klepto nerfs. Not going to do anything. Champs that run Klepto will still run Klepto. And will still get item spikes faster than their opponents in addition to all the free combat potions, mana potions, health potions, and gold. Most abusers of Klepto were in the past gated by things like having no sustain or limited mana pools. Klepto fixes all those issues. Just nerfing the values without systematically changing the rune to be more fair will do nothing.

Mana potions should be removed. Since alot of champions who's counterplay used to be. Mana management are now spamming like crazy

RiotMeddlerJan 19, 201829 votes

Placeholder: Want to respond to this, but need to do so once I've got into work in a bit and have the time to do so (not a short, simple answer).

Edit: Thinking about it, might be long enough and of enough interest it'd be better off in next week's first post (can get it translated for other regions too that way). Will start writing later and see how it's trending then update here if it ends up being a next week thing.

Edit2: Yeah, want to make sure I've got all the right context and that we're not just communicating to english speaking players. Expect a bunch of thoughts on top lane Tuesday or Wednesday next week.

RiotMeddlerJan 19, 201811 votes

Yeah, want to make sure I've got all the right context and that we're not just communicating to english speaking players. Expect a bunch of thoughts on top lane Tuesday or Wednesday next week.

DeathProfessorJan 23, 20184 votes

Hi, OTP Yi main here. I would like to request please whatever you change about Yi, please do something impact full about him, because he is in such a shit state that is not even comprehendable. Now, I know what ever buff's you are going to do to him, it won't make him highly ban-able because Yi's kit is quite simple and punishable. So following are some points that I want to highlight.

Yi isn't Riven or Akali or some other champion whose kit are so forgiving. Yi is a simple champion and has one dash 'Q' and that is all he can use to counter play or whatever. He is like a Garen who will never be picked/played or reach Master/Challenger, because he has a linear kit. I am ok with that, I am ok with him getting shit on in that elo if picked, but at-least he should be doing reasonably good in the lower tiers, no?
With so many updates all these years, Yi is not an assassin anymore. He is a bruisery diver, assassin have in and out mechanic which yi doesn't have talon has stealth, khazix has stealth/reset jump, zed has his shadows, eve has stealth, shaco has stealth, lb has clone dash, rengar has stealth etc. When ever yi engages, YOU see him coming from a mile, and he goes in hard and stays in.
Half the champions out run Yi, mid laner malzahar, outruns just because he brought ghost + flash as his summoner spells. Nasus with phase rush. Lulu, janna, karma bot lanes + fleet of footwork etc. Later on people with Tri-force and adc's with zeal items. Onhit-Yi doesn't do zeal items or triforce, ghostblade, so from where does he have to bring his own movement speed?
He can not be played as assassin, he is just too squishy and he is so fked by cc, well this was true before but now with the changes, like bramble vest, ninja tabi's, aftershock and toplane tanks he is even fked more than before. Alistar, leona, braum fk him in the bot, and maokai, Ornn and other tanks fk him in the top. And those aren't even hard to hit skills, well at-least you can try to dodge Malphite ult but what do you do with the rest of them.
You guys have pushed the game to be more of team fight game. It's so hard and nearly impossible to split push with Yi. Udyr can at-least do that because of his constant E spam, Jax can do that with his E Q, Camille can do that with her sling shot, Tryndamere with his E. How do you even do that with Yi, his ult is on such a high cool-down.
Before I had no problem's climbing with Yi, but even in the shitty elo, I am being forced to play shyvanna, xin, warwick etc. just to win.
He is so bad, OTP's try to bring red smite and exhaust in jungle with him now. He can't even 1v1, Udyr, Jax, shaco, shyvana, xin etc. So many people fk him. More than 95 % of champions counter Yi, directly or indirectly.

It's just so awful playing a champion with good pick-rate doing so bad, even in bronze. I don't even have a reason to pick him any more, like really.

IxtaliKingJan 19, 201815 votes

Hey Meddler, any news on Karma?

ZaNJeTsUJan 19, 201815 votes

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=1&v=TOBeYJ1ikVs

Warden KarmaJan 19, 201813 votes

Hey Meddler,

In the light of the upcoming mechanical update for Karma, could you share some information as to how big her update will be? Will it be like Xins update or smaller? Also any thoughts on which abilities you are looking in? What are the aims of the changes (more mage/support direction)?

Thank you for your time :)

Wukong AirlinesJan 19, 201813 votes

@Meddler, Can we get any thoughts on MonkeyKing ? anything, future plans, his current state at the moment [[although its very well known his current state is a disaster]], and why wasnt he touched for 4 straight years? His passive is non-existent, he has no room for creative playstyle an outplaying anyone. WAnna play him toplane? will get out-poked out sustained and bullied out of lane easily any level given. Wanna play him in the jungle? plenty of room for counter jungling him and keeping him behind , he has no extra damage or any advantage or fast clear, no sustain and pre-6 no ganks potential at all. Even at level 6 his gank is a hit or miss with all the CC available in most champs.

I've been seeing A LOT of Shyvana lately, she's a beast her clear is the fastest it's ridiculous + the amount of damage she does for a Tanky champions is so high you cant duel her at all, u need at least 3 to stop her lategame! this is the huge gap you've created between champions , creating beasts while keeping others behind and literally unplayable.

I just would like to know WHY aren't you answering our questions regarding Wukong? Why cant you give him the Ekko and Jinx treatment?

XiaoyenCatJan 21, 20183 votes

I agree with this. My friend is a MonkeyKing main and I have to BEG him to play League of Legends. He always says, "too frustrating."

ƒrostγJan 19, 201812 votes

Still not a single word on Lissandra. I should probably start to main tanks or adc, riot cares only about them. ( yes, I'm salty )

Marlon195Jan 19, 201811 votes

Hey meddler. Anything on Lissandra coming Soon?

HP CrookshanksJan 19, 20189 votes

Nothing about Ahri, Lissandra or Syndra? item 3070

I HATE ARURFJan 19, 20187 votes

Excuse me if I missed some changes on the PBE but what are your thoughts on Vayne at the moment? She's probably the strongest ADC right now and one of the most overperforming champions in the game. Are you looking into some nerfs for her? On a similar note Gangplank is also doing very well toplane (although nowhere near Vayne), I know you previously said you're still looking into it have you clarified your thoughts on the matter? I personally tend to believe some base stat or W nerfs (reducing his overall sustain in lane or making his orange be more rewarding when used properly, something like lowering the overall heal but increasing the heal if he cleanses CC with it but I suppose that's a stretch) would suffice but he does need some changes imo.

yoshi2790Jan 19, 20187 votes

Hey Meddler! Any news on Lissandra? I think we can all agree that she isn't in a good spot atm... :( What do you think of her?

ŚhunpoJan 19, 20186 votes

So....you're nerfing Katarina and not the runes she's abusing? Electrocute and Sudden Impact are broken runes, and the fact you haven't touched them first is very confusing. Also the bonus AD/AP upon a kill with Coup de Grace, you can just remove that.

Also, a good way to nerf her without actually nerfing her specifically is to not let Gunblade count towards a proc of Electrocute.

No damage nerfs to Zoe who's still sitting a 90%+ ban rate? Understandable.

Also, this might help you out in understanding why Kat's winrate is so high: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6FvJocbkfcQ&feature=youtu.be&t=1175

Kats PajamasJan 20, 20184 votes

{quoted}

So....you're nerfing Katarina and not the runes she's abusing? Electrocute and Sudden Impact are broken runes, and the fact you haven't touched them first is very confusing. Also the bonus AD/AP upon a kill with Coup de Grace, you can just remove that.

Also, a good way to nerf her without actually nerfing her specifically is to not let Gunblade count towards a proc of Electrocute.

No damage nerfs to Zoe who's still sitting a 90%+ ban rate? Understandable.

Also, this might help you out in understanding why Kat's winrate is so high: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6FvJocbkfcQ&feature=youtu.be&t=1175

The Gunblade active also does too much base damage, I shouldn't be encouraged to just build it on everyone because I main Katarina.

Katarina is also very high skill floor. It's not Bronze Katarina slaying Bronze Caitlyn. It's a combination of Smurfs, and Katarina that are in Elo Hell because they cannot collect a Nexus as easy as a Penta.

If a character is High Skill Floor, it only makes sense you have to be greater than your actual Elo to climb with it, a Bronze 1 Katarina is a way more scary player than someone that climbs to Bronze 1 with almost any other role.

ŚhunpoJan 20, 20182 votes

{quoted}

The Gunblade active also does too much base damage, I shouldn't be encouraged to just build it on everyone because I main Katarina.

Katarina is also very high skill floor. It's not Bronze Katarina slaying Bronze Caitlyn. It's a combination of Smurfs, and Katarina that are in Elo Hell because they cannot collect a Nexus as easy as a Penta.

If a character is High Skill Floor, it only makes sense you have to be greater than your actual Elo to climb with it, a Bronze 1 Katarina is a way more scary player than someone that climbs to Bronze 1 with almost any other role.

Mmhmm, and yet the balance team still isn't acknowledging all of this.

Jinzo TorranceJan 19, 20185 votes

Hey Meddler, why did you guys hit the ratio on Malzahar Q? Last time you said you were looking to reduce the damage his Voidlings do to minions so he shoves less hard, hitting Q ratio, while hurting his waveclear also hurts his ability to poke late game, is this a thing you also want to hit?

Also wanted to share some Malzahar gameplay bugs since when I posted them on Bug Reports section some patches ago I got no response:

Malzahar tether damage will still go through even if Malzahar dies or interrupts the channel (probably stops if you break the intended maximum tether range?)
Malzahar Voidlings are unaffected by the Ravenous Hunter rune, Heimerdinger and Zyra plants heal them so it seems a bug that Malzahar Voidlings don't heal him

RiotMeddlerJan 19, 20189 votes

Damn, that's an impressively fast copy paste given I put this post up literally seconds ago. Gotta respect the effort. Not sure about the change in Malz nerfs off the top of the head, I'll get you an answer once I head in to work later though, plus see if those are bugs we're aware of.

Edit: Context below just in case boards is burying the reply.

RiotMeddlerJan 19, 20188 votes

Malz Q - we were originally looking to nerf his W damage against minions. After testing that we concluded it didn't nerf his pushing power that much, given the rest of his kit. Did make his CSing with them quite a bit more awkward though, which felt really poor. Went with a Q nerf instead as a pretty straight forward way of taking some direct damage out of Malz especially when he's doing well. At a 0.65 AP ratio with AOE silence confident it should still be impactful and satisfying.

Aatroxs LegacyJan 19, 20185 votes

Why the nerfs on Kat? She only stomps in plat under, any higher and she's only played by one tricks because people actually understand how to play against her.

RiotMeddlerJan 19, 201810 votes

We think Kat's a bit too strong across a range of MMR bands, including above Plat, and including when played by people with only moderate amounts of experience on her. It's not just one tricks with 100s of games doing well.

Even if that wasn't the case and she was just stomping plat and under we'd still probably look at her. We can't balance purely for the few % of the playerbase above plat, even if that's where a lot of our balance focus is. We would want to do work on them to even out their performance by MMR more, make them less pubstompy for example and if needs be more functional in higher skill bands, wouldn't want to just ignore the issue though.

EasiestBestGodJan 19, 20186 votes

You know that he is lying right? Kata definitely has good win-rate above diamond while averaging highest kill per game among any midlaner.

YakkoosJan 23, 20182 votes

please, she is already very weak in lane for first 7min

Risk of FateJan 19, 20184 votes

[deleted]

RiotMeddlerJan 19, 20188 votes

Our take is that Jarvan's pretty much always the right choice in the jungle at present, given combination of his numerical power and range of tools/flexibility he brings (engage, early power, duels fairly well, can burst, lot of build flexibility, disengage etc). Play rate by contrast isn't something we use as an indicator of whether or not a champ should be buffed or nerfed (though it can be a good indicator that a champion should be investigated). Champs with high play rates can still need buffs (fun and cool themes so people play them regardless even if they're weak). Champs with low play rates can be too strong (niche or poor theme, kit not so fun, still overpowered when picked even if less people do so because most people don't pick off power alone)..

Sun Wu RyuumokuJan 19, 20183 votes

Vayne Nasus ??

High pick rate, high winrate, high ban rate.... used to recquier hard scaling... but aren't even weak during laning phase.

RiotMeddlerJan 19, 20185 votes

Vayne has nerfs in 8.2.

Nasus wise a lot of his power's coming from Klepto being too dominant, particularly in melee/melee match ups who really want the sustain and/or can proc if reliably. We've got Klepto changes in 8.2 as well that should bring down the amount of gold/items best case users (Ez and GP included) get from it noticeably.

Sun Wu RyuumokuJan 19, 20185 votes

Excuse my blindness... But i don't see any changes about Klepto

ProfDrDeathJan 19, 20182 votes

Probably hard to datamine. Remember, PBE change lists are nothing official from Riot, just what Moobeat, Aznbeat and the guys get with their tools.

Item probabilities from Klepto is probably not among that.

RiotMeddlerJan 20, 20185 votes

Yep. They're on the PBE, but hard to datamine. Probably of looting drops dramatically if you've looted multiple items recently, increases dramatically if you haven't looted in a long time. Should have numbers in the patch notes.

DeadUnbornJan 19, 20181 votes

While Klepto is a problem, I believe him taking coin is also an issue. I know you got support item changes on the way but ATM they are too good on non-supports

targons on adcs coin on klepto users spellthief on junglers that can use it

jadelinkJan 21, 20181 votes

While he may well still take coin, it will no longer upgrade into a super good item for him.

DeadUnbornJan 21, 20181 votes

We will have to wait and see, but vision creep is definitely an issue if viable, especially for competitive play

jadelinkJan 22, 20181 votes

I do suspect that taking a support item/sightstone will now be near universal on dedicated split pushers above somewhere around gold/plat level. This, a pink + sweeper allows the splitpusher to have solid flanking ward coverage.

The counter seems to be a jungler (or rival splitpusher) also armed with a sweeper/sightstone, to removed this vision. I certainly expect vision war s to intensify once this change is released.

I'm also glad the PBE change stopping junglers from using support items has gone. It seems rather petty to insist that they have 'green smite', and cripple their (now more important than ever) dueling capacity, whilst the adc and top (and many mids) will have a good sightstone item.

DeadUnbornJan 22, 20182 votes

We still need to see how CSsing will stop you from getting the reward unlock to get wards. If Riot thinks for a second O won't rush Spellthieve on Teemo they have another thing coming their way

Johan14Jan 19, 20184 votes

Still nothing about the buisers keystone??

RiotMeddlerJan 19, 201811 votes

Still being worked on. We want to make something that's a good choice on bruisers but not solely for them. Version we've been testing however looks like it'd be too generically good on most champs though, so we'll need to take another pass at it, tailor it somewhat more towards champs who need sustained damage and are at least somewhat tanky.

iahim98Jan 19, 20184 votes

Hey meddler, can you tell us some of the difference between a big patch and a small patch? The 8.2 patch seems rather average in terms of champions balance (doesn't feel anything big beside the nunu buffs), the thing that makes the patch big for me are the support items rework and runes changes, so my question is: does the difference between a big patch and a small patch are the potential big item changes and big champion changes (beside champs reworks that can be in either of them), while the small patch will mostly have numerical changes like 7.24 b?

Also what are your thoughts about duskblade? AD assassins seem to be balanced around it, but the item itself lacks counter play, giving huge AD on a auto which are mostly undodgeable and bringing back the "lol one-shot" in less then a second without even using ultimates (zed and blue kayn being the biggest offenders). Now my biggest issue with the item is that it doesn't feel like I can outplay it, I can't dodge/block the damage as it is on a auto and I can't actually wait out for duskblade to wear off as most assassins have a way of getting a second proc in their kits.

PeachyBubbleStarJan 19, 20183 votes

Hi Meddler!~First of all YAY CAITLYN BUFFS! lol, but i have a quick question(s), is there any information regarding champions that have yet to get new skins and are in need of them? Taliyah is my gurl and i'm kinda scared and need comfort that she'll see some skin love ;-; (aside from the SSG stuff) ALSO side question Whats going on with Jinx i heard she was getting buffed? or did that already happen orrr? btw Illaoi is super scary rn so that's a thing heh... ;-;

RiotMeddlerJan 19, 20188 votes

Skins - I don't work with the folks who work on skins much, so that's not something I can talk about generally sorry.

Jinx - Some buffs in 8.2, likely paired with some compensatory nerfs in other places so she doesn't go too nuts.

Illaoi - Yep, she's pretty impactful and getting a lot of play at present. Having said that you give up a lot of tools by picking someone like Illaoi instead of champs with more mobility and/or CC, so so far at least she doesn't seem too overbearing overall (not that it feels that way when you're getting ulted of course).

Illâoi Evê SiônJan 19, 20182 votes

About stuff on the PBE that doesn't ship, is there anything in the current cycle that won't or isn't likely to be in 8.2?

RiotMeddlerJan 19, 20185 votes

I think everything on PBE should be shipping in 8.2 at this point, though we did have to pull the vision score on scoreboard stuff out a few days ago due to some bugs (that'll go into 8.3). It's more likely there'll be stuff that doesn't ship until the next patch during small patches (so 8.3, 8.5, 8.7 etc).

EROTIC RAID BOSSJan 19, 20181 votes

On the subject of counterplay, how do you think the azir rework landed?

I'm a big fan of that champion and wanna know if it's gonna be safe to play him without him getting nerfed back down to being really weak again

RiotMeddlerJan 19, 20187 votes

I think it helped, in particular giving some champs better ways to lane effectively against it. I'm not sure if it went far enough necessarily though, could be we've just got the tuning off, but a well played Azir's still pretty tough to deal with.

Illâoi Evê SiônJan 19, 20181 votes

Hey Meddler,

it's been a long time since it was last mentioned (I think) but is there any news on how the Ohmwrecker experiments are faring? I think someone wanted to try out Demolish on it?

RiotMeddlerJan 19, 20186 votes

Still going to try a Demolish effect on Ohmwrecker sometime, though would need a bunch of testing before we talked about whether to ship it or not of course.