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Quick Gameplay Thoughts: November 22

RiotMeddler··1 votes·166,056 views

Hi folks,

Usual Disclaimers

These posts will often contain talk about future work we're doing, or planning to do, that isn't yet guaranteed to ship. The nature of the work could change or, depending on what we discover, projects mentioned may get delayed or even stopped. If you'd like to see a Tweet whenever a new one of these posts goes up: https://twitter.com/RiotMeddler


Overall Game State

We're getting some initial impressions of how the preseason changes have landed. Thoughts on those below. Early days still, so not putting too much faith yet that what we're seeing is representative of how things will necessarily settle down. Still getting some really useful early data and observations though.

As a quick repeat our big goals were:

  • Reduce cases of outer towers going down too quickly, while still rewarding early aggression/advantage
  • Make comebacks more achievable
  • Have games that are a foregone conclusion end quicker (less time waiting for a statistically inevitable loss)
  • Allow more flexible rune choices by decoupling rune stats from paths

What we're seeing so far:

  • Outer towers are falling a minute or two later on average, resulting in fewer laning phases over extremely early
  • Average game length hasn't changed meaningfully however, despite those later outer tower falls. That suggests some of the game resolving changes, like those to Epic Monster spawn times, are helping decided games get closed out.
  • Looks like teams aren't quite as likely to win as they were previously after taking early/mid objectives, suggesting early snowball might be down/comeback chance up. Need to dig into data here a lot more though, more on this next week most likely.

Once we've got a clearer picture on things we'll dig more into how each individual change in 8.23 is working, see whether we should be adjusting numbers on things like turret plating gold, tower stats, bounty calculations, individual camps etc or not.


Champions in 8.23 so far

Stronger Champs

Ezreal is looking a bit stronger, though not enormously so. Initial impression is that the Klepto change doesn't change its attractiveness that much for him, which might suggest we need to refine Klepto's CD, trigger rate etc further. We did also just straight buff Ezreal this patch though, so don't want to judge prematurely until we've got a better handle on what did what.

Lissandra also seems slightly stronger. We're expecting Lissandra players will also get better at taking advantage of her changes, playing around things like changes to her mana access, E speed, new passive. Wouldn't be surprised if she looks a bit stronger again in a week or two. Having said that also expecting opponents to get better at avoiding Frozen Thralls (seeing a lot of people ignoring them and paying for it right now), so possible those two effects cancel each other out power wise. Looking at the different positions she's played in mid/top are still dramatically more effective than support, so so far at least doesn't look like her scaling's too weak or her inherent utility too strong.

Karthus is performing noticeably better too. Could just be small sample size, also possible changes to game pacing like the extended laning phase are particularly beneficial for him though.

Weaker champs

Gangplank has been hit pretty noticeably. Possible that reflects changes to Runes. Klepto's likely less effective on him given difficulty getting the second proc off. The Resolve tree's potentially less appealing to him too, given Chrysalis's removal, and we're still seeing him take Grasp and Klepto roughly equally. Also possible something's just bugged with him though, we did rescript him a bit behind the scenes to fix some other issues. Digging into those possibilities and more to see what's going on, seeing him weaker's not something we were targeting.

Irelia is looking a bit weaker in mid specifically, which is encouraging given her over performance there. Need to investigate more, both to understand what's driving that change and assess her overall state now.

Taliyah jungle seems to be quite a bit weaker so far. Possible we hit her too hard there, expect her to bounce back though as junglers adjust to the changes. Cautiously optimistic that this set of changes will have helped with balancing her for both mid and jungle.

All Other Champs

Most champs have had their performance impacted a bit, those not listed above don't seem to have changed significantly though. We'll be back to looking at regular balance in patch 8.24 and onwards. We don't have 8.24 changes planned just yet, going to let things settle a little more and then pick targets early next week.


Runes in 8.23

Dark Harvest was clearly out of line. We hotfixed on the first day as a result, hitting both base damage and scaling. Now assessing it again.

Klepto wise we're waiting a bit before drawing any conclusions. Possible Ezreal's still too bound to it. Seeing some new champs perform reasonable with it but nothing out of line. Lucian for example is effective with it, but it's certainly not mandatory for him or excessively powerful so far.

http://ddragon.leagueoflegends.com/cdn/6.24.1/img/champion/Ziggs.png

290 Comments

Holgranth41 votes

Leaving win rate and balance out of the equation and focusing purely on design. The fact that shroud gives "true stealth" under enemy turrets gives massive agency to Akali while removing agency from her opponent(s). Do you think the added agency given to the Akali player outweighs the agency taken from her opponent? Is there "enough" counter-play?

MérouLN19 votes

Shroud is BS anyway. Akali can snowball like any assassin, but shroud is WAY TOO GOOD as a defensive spell. Normally an assassin under CC and getting DPS'd by the ADC should die? Well as long as Akali herself don't attack, or doesn't get dragged out of smoke, she's untouchable. Even if the CC is landed she still won't take damage from adc's autos.

Buff Riven Plz21 votes

Hey meddler any thoughts on the scaling cdr rune? It seems to scale a bit slow.

RiotMeddler8 votes

Entirely understand the desire for something that feels like it caps out before the game's over. We spent a while trying to find other versions of a CDR rune to offer. Eventually concluded though that this was what we'd need to go with for it to be balanced relative to the other options. Looking at early data CDR seems to be performing really well already statistically as choice in that slot, so doesn't look like we've got room to buff it.

Apex Support12 votes

Is it a idea to make it based on the average level of the 3 highest players on your team, instead of your own level. Now it kinda sucks to take on sup just because you are so far behind in levels.

Sad Robot Amumu19 votes

Current thoughts on Celerity? Popular consensus is that it's pretty weak now, but I'm interested in seeing if the data backs that up.

RiotMeddler17 votes

Lemme get some notes on that in a post next week. It's early days so far, so hesitant to trust data too much. Plus, since it's a holiday in the US today, I'm not at work so I don't have access to it anyway.

Mordepool18 votes

Overall Defensive Buffs When.

I mean actual reduction in damage not the twofaced nerfs to defenses we have seen thus far.

RiotMeddler15 votes

Update since time of writing: Looks like a lot of the GP issue was a bug with his ult. That's been hotfixed, we'll see how he does now and whether other stuff's also hit him too hard.

Buff Riven Plz10 votes

Also can the item 3071 build path get changed? It feels pretty bad having to sit on 15 AD untill the item is completed. Maybe something like item 3133 item 3067 or something? Thoughts on this?

MérouLN1 votes

Problem with that is that you remove phage and its movement speed. + some ad champs that relies on this item anyway would get a lot of benefits from having 20% cdr before item is finished (I think of J4 or Xin and probably Kayn).

Buff Riven Plz5 votes

Ahhhh fair enough. Well it could always be calufields/phage.

Walking AFI8 votes

Phage is the important part of the items though...

how do i clímb10 votes

Hi Meddler, what happened to item 3161 since I thought it was supposed to be released in the pre-season?

RiotMeddler9 votes

We don't have a version of it we're happy enough with yet. Planning to revisit it sometime in the next month or two once preseason follow up work's dealt with. Don't want to make any promises at this point though.

Marco12915 votes

So does this exclude shojin being implemented during the preseason until 9.2?

It feels pretty bad to have such an hyped item get posponed or worse never implemented.

RiotMeddler7 votes

It's possible we find a version and ship it in 9.1, don't want to assume so at this point though.

8.24 is out, since we'll have to lock changes for that by Wednesday next week. We will do an 8.24b patch mid December. That will be a balance changes only patch though, not one that includes new content (whether items, non gameplay things like skins or other stuff).

Marco12915 votes

Thanks for taking your time to answer my question.

Wukong Airlines9 votes

So you say Irelia is "weaker" in midlane, and that's not ok so you will [[ investigate more, both to understand what's driving that change and assess her overall state now ]], you instantly rush to fix whatever is in favor of meta, but you can't decide/bother with a clearly outdated champion [Wukong].

Speaking of Wukong, what do you think of his state now that new Runes put him on a 57% win ratio? lemme guess, [possible nerfs]. amiright?

hpp314 votes

Can you read?

Irelia is looking a bit weaker in mid specifically, **which is encouraging given her over performance there. **

What part of this suggests "Irelia is weaker in midlane, and that's not ok"??

ModAcademy Kayn10 votes

Does it really matter when it comes to these Wukong mains? I hate to be that guy, but they take whatever issue/Pro another champion has and make it instantly about Wukong. It's borderline ob-noxus.

Lord Fury9 votes

When are you going to tank junglers out of the shitter? Sejuani/Gragas/Zac/Skarner have been at the bottom of the barrel since scuttle changes (besides sej who has been at the bottom since nerfs and by a huge margin). Then you have Trundle and Olaf. Trundle is garbage because tanks are not played nearly as much anymore since the bruiser update and Olaf just can't compete with the highly aggressive junglers that have far better gank potential. Not even worth mentioning "off meta" shit like Diana or Rumble who have absolutely no chance since the scuttle update.

Queen Sèjuani8 votes

Any news on the Sejuani and other tank changes that were suppose to come back this pbe cycle?

RiotMeddler14 votes

Galio, Sejuani and Ornn are all still being worked on. Initial tests showed some promise and some problems, so we'll be putting more time into them. Not sure if any will make 8.24 though yet.

Jinkuzu6 votes

Hey Meddler

I know you're a busy person and probably wont see this question.

But here I go. How well is tradtional marksmen performing? I recently hit the breaking point from how poor crit marksmen feels to play, Stormrazor feeling like a early game bandaid that you rather sell around 3 items cause you rather have another zeal by that point.

I know it's a meme from Tyler but plz revert crit items....

Malza6 votes

Revert singed nerfs, make towers stronger if they give so much gold.

Buff Riven Plz19 votes

No we aren’t going back to singed being broken with no counterplay thank you.

Shinrai6 votes

Hi, any idea to bring back Taliyah mid ?

Leroswend6 votes

Thoughts on Lucian atm? he seems to be far and away the best marksman right now with no-one else able to realistically compete with him. Also thoughts on possibly making Electrocute and Dark harvest deal purely magic damage? just feels like most AD assassins get way too much value from stacking lethality because they do so much more physical damage than before the rune changes due to adaptive damage being affected by lethality.

Jinx and Twitch5 votes

Hello meddler was wondering if the relic shield bug where the holder of relic gets +2 CS and the bot laner gets +0 is intentional or are you looking into fixing it? Thanks for your time meddler

RiotMeddler11 votes

Unintentional. We'll get a fix in, hopefully in 8.24.

Pastor Yorick5 votes

What happened do Ornn passive rework? Can we see it come live soon? Yorick's Ghouls are now terrible to let them push by themselves and even if you help them they get killed way faster by mage minions,since all the minions have been buffed,can we expect a buff to him or his ghouls?

Smartness Immune5 votes

Any buffs on the radar for Corki and RekSai ? Maybe some mana changes for Azir ? I'd love to see something changed bout' these dudes.

ModAcademy Kayn5 votes

I remember a long time ago, you posted a graph showing the percent of games that are "Decided" yet drag on, versus games that are quickly decided, versus games that are roughly "undecided".

With the new changes, and any future changes to the system, would it be possible to see another graph of the same kind later on sometime?

Eldeazar5 votes

I am going to wait to play League until Dark Harvest gets another hotfix. The fact that it can proc with EVERY damaging ability is too much. Then what are comet, electrocute and fleet footwork doing in the game? Dark harvest answers all your bursty needs in pretty much any damage based champion. Lyandri's procing dark harvest and ranged champs getting the same stacks as melee. Jesus take the wheel and drive me away

YaShIr05 votes

if Irelia got a buff, I'm gonna quit this game, you can't be this blind about how that champion is not balanced.

Pokemonred2004 votes

I know you're not on the Nexus Blitz team, but do you have any ideas on how item 3154 could potentially stay in the mode while satisfying the original fantasy of the item? August said his version not satisfying the original item's fantasy is the reason it's been removed, but given it was a jungle item for a majority of its time in the game (with its old lore even stating it was crafted specifically for jungle navigation), I'm not sure how this would best be done, given it seems like it would clash with existing jungle items in the mode, most notably item 4105 and item 4102.

Ornnhub Premium4 votes

Any plans to buff Shyvana or maybe somewhere in the future the possiblity of a small scale rework again so that she isnt overbearing when good or just plain mediocre

lil chuan4 votes

Any thoughts on Corki? He's still hardly seeing play, hes one of the only champs not listed on OP.GG due to lack of sample size

FusRoDah3 votes

Any news on the state of LeBlanc? You guys mentioned that you were going light on nerfing her since you suspected these preseason changes would also negatively affect her!

RiotMeddler10 votes

We haven't seen preseason have a major effect on her so far. She'll be one of the champs we consider early next week.

Tantarboy3 votes

Hey meddler, what’s your favourite platformer game? Also is there a chance of League collabing with other games/media? (An example that comes to mind is Shovel Knight cause that dude is everywhere and I love it lol)

RiotMeddler16 votes

This year I've really enjoyed Hollow Knight (just playing through it now) and Dead Cells. Historically, imagine it doesn't count as a platformer to a lot of people, but I really enjoyed Inside.

Collabs with other games/media doesn't sound impossible, though that's really not my area of expertise. Stuff like the Marvel Comics thing's definitely something we're really open to, mixing LoL IP with other IPs on the other hand I'm much less sure about.

Laceration3 votes

how are lethality champs doingthis patch>?!? care to comment??! zeds q does 38 damage if they hide behind minions btw :)

Netorare3 votes

So, u guys will still ignore the playerbase when they talk about the state of the game being trash and dmg needs to be nerfed.

VLADS NOT HOT3 votes

So what is about bringing the bruiser items out like atmas ?You said after you didnt brought them out on 8.12 that they will come out in the preseason again.So why we dont have bruiser items in the ´preseason ?

DarkSpiritslayer2 votes

cause they hate bruisers

they said they wont release the items in the near future ... feels bad man

loli nukes2 votes

So meddler do you want to support taliyah jungle as a permanent thing or is it completely secondary to mid taliyah. Sucks when new champs come in then end up considered unhealthy and removed out, just wondering thoughts on taliyah jungle overall.

RiotMeddler13 votes

We want to support both jungle and mid Taliyah.

Adalvar12 votes

Have you considered the fact that Taliyah will not comeback into midlane as long as her Q remains single target? It was what kicked her out of midlane in the first place. Granted, her waveclear back then was too good, but rather than simply reducing her minion damage, you simply removed almost half of her lategame teamfighting damage.

Give her back her Q AOE, maybe at a reduced level/with a reduction against minions/monsters, but give it back.

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