Quick Gameplay Thoughts: September 22

RiotMeddler·Sep 22, 2017·1 votes·54,801 views

Morning all,

Usual Disclaimers

These posts will often contain talk about future work we're doing, or planning to do, that isn't yet guaranteed to ship. The nature of the work could change or, depending on what we discover, projects mentioned may get put delayed or even stopped. If you'd like to see a Tweet whenever a new one of these posts goes up: https://twitter.com/RiotMeddler

Adjusting Summoner Spell Levels Slightly

With the changes to leveling coming in pre-season we'll be adjusting which levels players get summoner spells at slightly to distribute different things that unlock (summoner spells, new game modes, ability to customize runes etc) a bit better. We'll also be shifting a couple of spells so that they're introduced to the player at more appropriate times as well. That'll overall look like Cleanse at level 9 instead of 6 once players are a bit better placed to assess its value, Flash at level 7 instead of 8, Snowball at level 6 instead of 1 etc.

We're not making all Summoner spells available at level 1 however because we've seen that be a worse experience for new players, given they're focused on learning the basics of the game and Summoner spell usage, let alone Summoner spell choice, isn't very important at that point. Ghost and Heal are offered because they're the two with the easiest targeting (just push the button) and for a lot of new players that's a really meaningful thing. Leaving some spells, Flash and Smite especially, till later levels does tend to frustrate players making additional accounts somewhat, that's a trade off we think's appropriate though, especially given we're not looking to encourage smurfing more.

Urgot W and damage reflection

In 7.20 we're planning to make a change where Urgot's W treats damage reflection as an on hit as well. That means that, in addition to reducing Urgot's on hits on other to 1/3, his W will also reduce damage reflection he takes to 1/3. That means Bramble Vest, Thornmail, Rammus W and any other possible damage reflect sources won't excessively murder him after he pushes that button.

Balance stuff we'll be looking at in 7.20

A lot of our focus, even for the folks normally putting a lot of time into patch to patch balance, is on pre-season at this point. There'll still be some balance changes in 7.20 though. Thoughts on what's likely:

Ongoing work that didn't make it into 7.19 - Sterak's buff, Brand buff targeted at mana restoration for CSing Brands, probably an Ornn buff (might still make it into 7.19 though).
Monitoring of bigger 7.19 changes - Janna, Azir, Xin Zhao, Vayne and Caitlyn all have some likelihood of needing some follow up work
New changes planned - Buffs likely to Graves, Karma
Investigating, but might still leave unchanged - Do we need to nerf Twitch before pre-season hits and upheaves the state of balance for a bit anyway?

Streaming some runes stuff on Monday

We'll be doing a stream where we talk about some runes stuff this coming Monday, looking at both some previously announced ones and some new ones. We'll be using a pre-recorded recent game from one of our internal playtests for that, so while this won't be live streaming of a game it should be a pretty good look for anyone interested at how Runes behave during normal LoL play. Recommend giving it a look if you're interested in seeing some of the system in action before it's on PBE.

http://ddragon.leagueoflegends.com/cdn/6.24.1/img/champion/Ziggs.png

292 Comments

warpenguin555Sep 22, 201743 votes

Please nerf twitch before the preseason

Bank of VeggieSep 22, 20177 votes

Just looking for a discussion here, to contrast to how others feel about twitch from different communities~

What do you want nerfed about Twitch and why, what are the problem points you see in him?

Blackspy48Sep 22, 20175 votes

i hate that he can 1 shot ur entire team from very far away while being extreamly safe so i would nerf his q cd or his r bonus ad

Bank of VeggieSep 22, 201720 votes

In reality, he isn't 1 shotting anything unless he's 6 items and levels up.

He is sort of safe, but that's mostly attributed to healing/shielding supports making him really hard to punish for a bad position.

Do you have any problems with anything except his ult? Avoid hyperboles also, because saying Twitch "one shots my team" just skews the discussion.

Rathar DashingSep 22, 20176 votes

Personally I don't like the stealth mechanic. If a late game carry (who, like almost all ADCs at the moment, has a late game of about 2.5 items) is coming my way, I wanna know that so I can plan accordingly. It also makes it harder to chase him, or get away from him considering how much movement speed it gives him. That on top of the fact he can use the attack speed to increase the power of his ult tremendously, he can reset the stealth by simply killing his target or even just by landing one auto on it before it dies, it's just too many power increases on top of an ability that already grants camouflage.

Bank of VeggieSep 22, 20174 votes

So in your opinion which do you think would be a better nerf?

Removing the speed from his stealth completely, or removing his ability to reset the cooldown?

I say only one of these because, Caitlyn is being buffed and healing/shielding supports and items are getting nerfed, so all together in the next few patches Twitch will feel a lot less strong already.

You can't really remove stealth from Twitch as that sort of.. makes him Twitch, but I do agree his Q is a bit overloaded for what it already is.

Rathar DashingSep 22, 20177 votes

I would definitely take away the ability to reset. Him being able to sneak up and assassinate someone easily is kind of his thing, but he shouldn't be able to do that and then completely avoid retaliation, or set up a ridiculous chain of permanent bonus attack speed/positioning.

The reason I don't complain about Tristana's resetting mechanics is that her jump prevents her from using auto attacks for a set amount of time, and once she's decided to jump she's already made the decision about whether or not she's going in, and is fully vulnerable to targetted/ground based skills during the jump. She also can't reset her attack speed buff, so when that's down it's down, period.

Bank of VeggieSep 22, 20174 votes

Sounds reasonable and thought out, maybe we can get meddler to look into that as the way of nerfing him before preseason until we see what the runes changes do to him.

Rathar DashingSep 22, 20175 votes

Thank you, it's rare to have a pleasant conversation like this on the boards when discussing champion balance. [sg-ahri-2]

TormentulaSep 22, 201727 votes

The primary problem with leveling accounts and SS is there is no tutorial for jg.

You literally have no idea what jungling is, and even if you did figure it out, you'd have no way to appropriately do it without smite (which resulted in grinding.)

I remember when I first joined and wanted to learn jg Kha and Elise and watched a bunch of youtubers do it to learn. Took me three levels before I realized that random lightning bolt was a summoner spell I couldn't unlock quite yet.

I don't think we care about flash or cleanse since new players will likely do bots to level 10 or blind pick where everybody is just as handicapped for their MMR, but smite and jg tutorial is something you guys should really look into, especially since its probably the most popular role and a lot of players jump into it without knowing what "ganks, farming, counter jungling, combat smites, etc" all is.

LordRedStone Nr1Sep 22, 201710 votes

Tutorial and bots in general. The Howling Abyss tutorial choses Thornmail as an example for items. On Ashe. [zombie-brand-facepalm]

Bank of VeggieSep 22, 20176 votes

They do that so people that don't click on the Trundle or that don't understand what to do (somehow) can still complete the tutorial, by killing him with thornmail.

It sounds stupid.. and kind of is, but I'm sure there's been a few cases

AbyssphereSep 22, 201717 votes

Are you just doing generic buffs for Karma or are you trying to address any issues with the changes you're going for?

RiotMeddlerSep 22, 20176 votes

Likely just basic power, given we're so close to pre-season and most of our time has to go there. Larger work to fix some of her issues will be a later thing.

IxtaliKingSep 22, 201714 votes

Hey Meddler, a few questions regarding Karma:

Are you only planning number buffs at this point?
If so, are they just bandaid buffs until you are able to work on her properly early next year like you said before?
Lastly, if you are going through with larger work on Karma next year, how do you feel about some of her older mechanics being updated and brought back to her? The Karma community are seeking reconciliation between the 2 player bases created by her rework.

MordepoolSep 22, 20171 votes

I suggest you look at the Rune Ultimore and just be happy for karma

IxtaliKingSep 22, 20176 votes

Lol Ultimore isn't going to improve her kit's poor design or address any of her real issues.

dreadnoughtus01Sep 22, 20172 votes

I'd be happy with a band-aid buff till we get her rework. Who knows how long preseason balancing will take.

I think touching her base numbers will cause balance issues, what do you think about buffing her scaling numbers? That way she's more viable outside of LCS and isn't as oppressive in higher ELOs (since games usually don't take as long)?

WinterkillSep 22, 20171 votes

{quoted}

I'd be happy with a band-aid buff till we get her rework. Who knows how long preseason balancing will take.

I think touching her base numbers will cause balance issues, what do you think about buffing her scaling numbers? That way she's more viable outside of LCS and isn't as oppressive in higher ELOs (since games usually don't take as long)?

She's been getting that for four years. Karma is not getting a VGU anytime soon and she doesn't deserve it over older champions with no identity. Her identity and art problems are terrible, but there are other champions in a worse state than she is. She needs major changes or no work at all. She won't receive a VGU for at least 3 years if you do the math of how many champions currently need a VGU over her.

dreadnoughtus01Sep 22, 20173 votes

She doesn't need a VGU, just mini-rework like Xin Zhao just got. Just to give her a niche and better thematic identity, I can wait for a visual update later.

Changing one or two abilities, perhaps her passive as well, could do wonders to give her an identity.

MiIf FortuneSep 22, 20174 votes

her joeks arent jokes, her w and e have no animation when they could have, they didnt bring her fans (her entire old design) cause they didnt wanna animate them. i think she deserved it

RiotMeddlerSep 22, 201713 votes

Yep, likely just a bit of power for now and some mechanics changes next year.

I think looking at some of her prior mechanics to see if any of them could be made to work well on her is worth a try. Wouldn't want to make any promises as to what we'd re-add, or even if we'd find we were able to re-add anything, but would definitely look into it. Which particular mechanics would you folks be most interested in seeing us at least experiment with?

dreadnoughtus01Sep 22, 201711 votes

I think a lot of Karma players miss her shield bomb. It was pretty unique, before a similar version was given to Ivern. I think most Karma players would like to see a version of it added back, if only to differentiate from other enchanters. If not damage, it should at least provide some unique utility like many other enchanters have (Janna's ad steriod, Lulu's as steriod). Locket and Sona already approach the AoE shield niche.

Her W could also do with some change or utility. Her old W had a unique mechanic, if a bit clunky and hard to apply. An updated version or a similar interaction with allies could go a long way to spicing up her kit.

IxtaliKingSep 22, 201711 votes

Yep, likely just a bit of power for now and some mechanics changes next year.

Sweet.

Which particular mechanics would you folks be most interested in seeing us at least experiment with?

First of all, the shield bomb. There was a lot of confusion around it's removal in 5.10, with only the buffing of her passive given as context for it's removal. The shield damage was iconic, and I really believe this NEEDS to come back. Plus, that version of RE seemed way more balanceable than what we have now.
RW for allies. Perhaps allowing Karma to give up her self-heal to an ally is worth experimenting with? Imo, this change in 5.10 would have gone a lot further to increase her contextual decision making than what we got.
RW tether damage on the ally cast, could be cool.
Mantra giving damage as standard again. The bonus root RW seems a bit pointless and hardly worth the risk of staying in that range for.
Lastly, while not an old mechanic I think perhaps experimenting with RQ either being ground targeted (like Lux E) or like Shyvanna's fireball where she can set its distance, would be good.

Valor BotSep 22, 201711 votes

I never played old Karma, but I know many pre-rework Karma mains who have expressed the shield bomb mechanic was core to her as a champion and would die for her to have it again. Would love to see you guys experiment with it on her new kit and maybe tell us how it goes (if it needs to go and why/if it can stay).

Would also be cool to see a set of Karma changes that shift her back towards being a battle mage/enchanter hybrid again, rather than a pure enchanter as she seems to be today. I think battle mage fits her more thematically (she's a leader, not a follower) and would make for a more unique Karma all around rather than pure enchanter Karma who isn't very distinct aside from AoE shields/movespeed boosts (which is already Sona's thing anyway).

SolideusSep 22, 20173 votes

A telegraphed/dodgeable version of the shield bomb, perhaps?

HellioningSep 22, 201722 votes

Shieldbomb should never have been removed.

SilverSquidSep 22, 201717 votes

Thank you for caring, Meddler!

Well, there is a lot of interesting stuff there

DUALITY - Damage spells that can heal an area, or shields that deal damage. I wanna be forced to decide between helping allies and damaging enemies constantly. Or be able to do both in fringe cases.
ALLY TETHER - Something that allowed me to CONNECT with my friends and made positioning important.
BAITING - Some chances for turnarounds. NO staying at low hp forever and NO tankscalings.
MANTRA - Please give us some actual decision making, not one mantra per lane.

Also maybe some KARMIC aspects would help. It's her name afterall. Making snowballers priority targets, redirecting damage or getting a bonus for protecting weak allies.

If something has to give, make it that awful super root. It does not fit her kit, lore or playstyle.

HalcyonDwellerSep 22, 20171 votes

What if Shieldbomb came back, but on detonation instead of damaging enemies it would grant shields to allies. Interesting things could be done with scaling based on % of shield remaining, and it could open up some interesting game-play decisions for Karma players.

SilverSquidSep 22, 20173 votes

What if Shieldbomb came back, but on detonation instead of damaging enemies it would grant shields to allies.

How is that not just current RE?

HalcyonDwellerSep 22, 20171 votes

Mostly I just mean we should consider adding some sort of defensive effect to it instead of offensive. At least just in case Riot didn't like the direction of having it deal damage, this offers another way to bring the effect back.

What I'm proposing is actually a shieldbomb of sorts on the basic ability, rather than making it an RE only effect.

Imagine this:

On cast, a shield is applied to an ally. When the shield expires, it detonates. Granting a shield (or healing) to nearby allies, the heal (or shield) scales based on the % of the shield that is missing when it expires.

A number of things could be done to differentiate it from current RE.

Make it a heal on detonation instead of a shield.
Modify how RE works: It could be set up so that casting R+E again after casting E on a target detonates it instantly (spreading the heal / shield, possibly at the cost of less impact if that is needed for balance), and provides some additional effect.
Give it a stronger effect than RE if it is used successfully, so that RE is the more immediate and emergency option, but E on delay would be better in it's strongest use case.
Make RE apply a more powerful version of my proposed E change, so that it causes the shield to apply to nearby allies as the target takes damage.

SilverSquidSep 22, 20174 votes

At least just in case Riot didn't like the direction of having it deal damage, this offers another way to bring the effect back.

Before I even hear a single viable game design reason for why the damage aspect is bad, I will not consider this. I have read every single Karma related red post and I have been working with the Karma community for 2 years now and not a SINGLE reason has been brought forth.

On to your ideas; This must be considered carefully. A straight up buff is out of the question. This means, the movementspeed would have to go. Be prepared to have an idea for that. Additionally, you probably don't want to have a heal/shield in one ability. It makes both low impact and kind of mushy. And I could imagine a lot of reasons why having a shield that spawns shields is another problem.

One of them being, that it's worthless in solo lanes. Also I started to dread mantra abilities that simply give you more of the same. There are so many of those "enance basic ability" effects out there, let's have Karma do something better.

PS: I am sorry if I am sounding harsh, this is not meant to be against you. I appreciate you throwing new ideas into the bunch, but I have gotten used to giving precise feedback towards Karma ideas and I might not care for my tone too much. Again, please feel appreciated for using your head creatively and positively.

HalcyonDwellerSep 22, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Before I even hear a single viable game design reason for why the damage aspect is bad, I will not consider this. I have read every single Karma related red post and I have been working with the Karma community for 2 years now and not a SINGLE reason has been brought forth.

Fair enough. I'm not opposed to the damage anyway, just trying to provide alternatives in case we find out Riot is opposed to it.

On to your ideas; This must be considered carefully. A straight up buff is out of the question. This means, the movementspeed would have to go. Be prepared to have an idea for that. Additionally, you probably don't want to have a heal/shield in one ability. It makes both low impact and kind of mushy. And I could imagine a lot of reasons why having a shield that spawns shields is another problem.

One of them being, that it's worthless in solo lanes.

Thanks, those are some great points. I see now how I made it a little too wishy-washy, or 'mushy' as you put it. Solo-lane effects is another good point, I hadn't considered what it would do to Karma in that situation. I see now that it would have to be solidified or made more consistent in order to work well.

Also I started to dread mantra abilities that simply give you more of the same. There are so many of those "enance basic ability" effects out there, let's have Karma do something better.

To be fair, Karma's current design kind of is all about using her ultimate to fire off more powerful versions of her other abilities. That said, I understand and I'm also not opposed to this sort of change.

PS: I am sorry if I am sounding harsh, this is not meant to be against you. I appreciate you throwing new ideas into the bunch, but I have gotten used to giving precise feedback towards Karma ideas and I might not care for my tone too much. Again, please feel appreciated for using your head creatively and positively.

Lol thanks, I understood. No offense taken!

Here's another idea to consider, what if she couldn't cast R+E just anytime. What if instead she had to cast it after a target had already been shielded?

It could be made so that casting R+E would be what would cause the Bomb to detonate from the shielded target's position while also making it shield allies. By delaying it in this manner it offers enemies time to see and react, while also offering Karma more power by being able to re-shield her target? If needed it could also be given a slowly growing AoE (grows like Galio's taunt) that applies effects to allies or enemies when it reaches them.

Some, all, or none of this idea could work. Do not think that I want all of this as a complete package, please. I'm open to discussing individual parts of it separate from one another.

SilverSquidSep 22, 20173 votes

Fair enough. I'm not opposed to the damage anyway, just trying to provide alternatives in case we find out Riot is opposed to it.

I can relate. But since I have not heard that from them yet, nobody complained about it when it was around, there seems to be no objective reason against the damage, and people love the shieldbomb...

I would rather push the shieldbomb or finally get my answer.

Thanks, those are some great points.

I am simply trying to convey what the last 2 years have taught me. You seem positive and learning quickly.

To be fair, Karma's current design kind of is all about using her ultimate to fire off more powerful versions of her other abilities.

Imho, this was one of the many mistakes in her rework. Her mantra turned into a cheaper Heimer ult, which is a problem; he gets it in addition to his turret identity, while Karma draws all of her identity from it.

I can understand why you wanted to go down this way, just judging from the kit she has now, but looking at the Karma community, this is not well received.

Here's another idea to consider, what if she couldn't cast R+E just anytime. What if instead she had to cast it after a target had already been shielded?

Well, either this makes Karma dependent on OTHERS shielding her target (which I don't find appealing... again, this doesn't work in solo lanes either) or she needs to press E+R+E or something. Which is clunky. Maybe a more simple solution is to add a travel time to the explosion (think Riven's R) or give it a 0.5s delay. Maybe both. Personally, I hold that spending mantra is already enough room for counterplay. Since it's a rare ressource and spending your shield to deal damage leaves you open to retaliation. And you can bait another mantra. Or you can bait shieldbomb to DENY another mantra.

Keep the ideas coming though. I had to make like a dozen of reworks until I got positive feedback, so I feel like having many ideas is more important than having the perfect ones right away.

HalcyonDwellerSep 22, 20173 votes

{quoted}

I can relate. But since I have not heard that from them yet, nobody complained about it when it was around, there seems to be no objective reason against the damage, and people love the shieldbomb...

Ok, I agree with you there.

I would rather push the shieldbomb or finally get my answer.

I am simply trying to convey what the last 2 years have taught me. You seem positive and learning quickly.

Imho, this was one of the many mistakes in her rework. Her mantra turned into a cheaper Heimer ult, which is a problem; he gets it in addition to his turret identity, while Karma draws all of her identity from it.

I see how this is a problem, but I am skeptical that Riot will make significant enough changes to fix this.

I can understand why you wanted to go down this way, just judging from the kit she has now, but looking at the Karma community, this is not well received.

Fair enough, I am merely discussing ideas to see what works. Thanks for helping me see that more clearly!

Well, either this makes Karma dependent on OTHERS shielding her target (which I don't find appealing... again, this doesn't work in solo lanes either) or she needs to press E+R+E or something. Which is clunky. Maybe a more simple solution is to add a travel time to the explosion (think Riven's R) or give it a 0.5s delay. Maybe both.

Ok simplest solution IMO is what you suggested, put it on a timer delay. R + E shields the target, then starts a timer, when the timer runs out it detonates to deal damage and shield in an AoE around that target. Could re-shield the target if more power is needed.

Personally, I hold that spending mantra is already enough room for counterplay. Since it's a rare ressource and spending your shield to deal damage leaves you open to retaliation. And you can bait another mantra. Or you can bait shieldbomb to DENY another mantra.

Cooldowns are one aspect of counterplay, but readability and opportunity to react can be equally important. I think part of the problem is that it was an instant-cast AoE that had both Offensive and Defensive impact. IMHO it should offer opponents more reaction time that it did before they removed it.

Keep the ideas coming though. I had to make like a dozen of reworks until I got positive feedback, so I feel like having many ideas is more important than having the perfect ones right away.

Thanks a bunch! I'm greatly enjoying discussing design with you, and if you're open to discussing other designs and characters in the future then I would be grateful for the opportunity to do so.

SilverSquidSep 23, 20174 votes

I see how this is a problem, but I am skeptical that Riot will make significant enough changes to fix this.

I mean, if this is close to the 5.10 update, then it would be possible, since they did the opposite back then, lol. Being skeptical and hopeful seem both reasonable though.

I think part of the problem is that it was an instant-cast AoE that had both Offensive and Defensive impact.

We can only guess what the problem was. Other than ricklessabandon grossly missjudging this ability. Or all of Karma, tbh. The thing with the Offensive&Defensive part was, that it could fail. Shield only your team and it was meh. Damage the enemies and it was okay. Hit 10 champions and it was worth an ultimate. But again, why would anyone clump against Karma? It's like people standing in a line to fight Twitch ^^' And realisticly, you would usually hit 2-4 people.

Today's RE is way more problematic, imo. Because it always works at peak performance. There is no counterplay for the enemies (positioning) to make it less impactful. And baiting it out is nearly impossible, since lategame Karma has it all the time... again, a problem introduced by ricklessabandon's idea of making Karma more of a machine-gun with mantra. I dunno what went through his mind, tbh.

That being said, I am generally a great fan of readability and counterplay. Current Karma has a lot of mechanical counterplay in Q and W already, so I didn't mind pushing a bit of reliable damage into RE. In fact, between 3.5 and 5.10 it was her lowest, but safest mantra damage (only missing RQ's second half was lower). This tradeoff seemed to escape most people though.

But again, I like readability in spells and a short... warning before the RE seems reasonable, even to diehard Karma fans, as far as I've seen.

if you're open to discussing other designs and characters in the future then I would be grateful for the opportunity to do so.

Sure, I'd love to help out! I must warn you though, I am not that well versed with other champions.

WinterkillSep 22, 20175 votes

{quoted}

Yep, likely just a bit of power for now and some mechanics changes next year.

I think looking at some of her prior mechanics to see if any of them could be made to work well on her is worth a try. Wouldn't want to make any promises as to what we'd re-add, or even if we'd find we were able to re-add anything, but would definitely look into it. Which particular mechanics would you folks be most interested in seeing us at least experiment with?

Remove mass shielding and replace it with shield bomb and just the mass speed up to nearby allies.
I liked her old Mantra Q and the healing component of it. It fit a battlemage. I like new Karma Q though.
A new passive and move her current one to R. We need something more for a mage.
A tether function with her W or Mantra W.
Solidify her theme with something. You can add twin dragons around her arms, play off of her mantle more, and really go all out with current visuals and make them flashier. You probably won't though.

Queen SansaSep 23, 20175 votes

Please please please bring back shield bomb and just balance out her utility. This gives her E a chance to interact with her current passive.
And also consider to bring back her old passive or something, her her current one really belongs to her ult. TBH if this passive were revoked, it gives a chance to shape Battle Mage Karma which would fit nicely with her current (ult) passive
There has to be a change to her W tether

ZapMyHeartSep 23, 20173 votes

{quoted}

Yep, likely just a bit of power for now and some mechanics changes next year.

I think looking at some of her prior mechanics to see if any of them could be made to work well on her is worth a try. Wouldn't want to make any promises as to what we'd re-add, or even if we'd find we were able to re-add anything, but would definitely look into it. Which particular mechanics would you folks be most interested in seeing us at least experiment with?

Shield bomb is probably the thing Karma players miss the most.

I wouldn't mind seeing her old AP passive based on her health return in some form or another, as her Mantra passive should have been tacked onto her R to begin with. It would make dueling much more of an option for her, rather than be a hit-and-run spam Q bot. Plus it would give her an old Karma feel to it, but modernized.

The issue with the current Karma is that she is heavily reliant on her RE as the choice for Mantra, making the other 2 options not that attractive (not that the other 2 are that great to begin with...). Shifting the power from RE and putting them into a reworked RQ and RW would make her feel better. Heimerdinger's ult is rather great with his 3 choices, whereas Karma's ult is not so much.

Also, her old role was more battlemage, whereas this one has an identity crisis. Too much pull in all roles due to her mismatch of a kit. Trimming it down and make her more focused would be ideal.

Pisces StarChildSep 23, 20173 votes

Hi Meddler,

Thanks for replying with an insight on what to expect for Karma. You mentioned that some buffs in the near future for her are only going to be basic power and I thank you for that. I think she was perhaps nerfed a bit too much recently due to concerns about her kit posing great synergy with the support items that were getting some changes at that time. Now she's not as effective as other picks in both her respective roles/classes so anything in the form of buffs for her would be greatly appreciated. I trust that you'll come up with ideas on how to give her a power boost (in any form) that'll have her be on equal grounds without necessarily making her overbearing or too strong versus other picks.

As far as past mechanics that I would love to see you try to bring back, I would like to see her abilities having both offensive/aggressive and defensive/supportive uses once more. I think that's what made Karma unique and appealing to her fans, me in particular. I mean that in the sense that you can either use a spell to deal damage or heal/save an ally (with mantra), or even doing both simultaneously provided that you positioned yourself strategically to allow a spell to be used to its maximum potential. I think that's what made Karma unique back then and definitely made her come across as a leader-type champion. Other than that, I think her skill-shot heal and ally/enemy tether function back then definitely had some potential. I would love to see them return in some form or another. Thanks Meddler :)

alekzuSep 23, 20173 votes

Thank you for the clarification and also thank you for reaching the Karma community for changes!

Things that I find interesting to experiment with are:

shieldbomb instead of a massive shield but balanced and equal to the other matraed abilities(unlike pre-relaunch Karma where her shieldbomb was her most powerful mantraed ability and thus why it became so iconic)
a new tether, particularly a new RW tether, which spreads it effects when champions pass trough it: damage and root enemies(half effects) meanwhile heal allies(half stacks)
a passive that doesn't reward only aggressive play but all kinds of actions like when you heal/shield allies and when you take damage: doing damage increases your healing capabilities, taking/enduring damage lowers mantra cooldown and shielding/healing allies increases the damage you will do to enemies is a good example that Karma is everywhere behind every action

These are the mechanics I would like to see implemented the most. All the other mechanics suggested by other people, some of which are also very interesting, are welcomed and something I would be happy to see as well.

Again thank you for taking your time to communicate with us and collect all these amazing ideas that some of the Karma fans suggested, Meddler.

DeathBurstSep 22, 201712 votes

Live stream: Will it be at a reasonable hour for European people?

RiotMeddlerSep 22, 20178 votes

I believe we're aiming to start at 12 (noon) PST in part to make it easier for a range of timezones to tune in.

WinterkillSep 22, 201711 votes

I asked you in the last Developer Gameplay Update about Karma. What are you going to do to address her identity issue? Do you want Karma to be a support/enchanter or a battlemage/enchanter. Her winrate in midlane as a mage is higher than her support gameplay. Meddler, you have to make a decision and communicate with us what you plan to do with her. A buff to shields is not going to cut it.

The following needs to be addressed or don't even bother with any work on Karma:

Address her conflicting gameplay identities with her confusing kit. What is Karma? Is she a midlaner with minor enchanter interaction or is she a shield bot?
Her kit needs to be unique and different from other enchanters and item actives in the game. The least you can do since you don't plan to address her thematic issues, you can change the fact that her R+E is nothing more than an Iron Locket of Solari item active with a speed boost.
Karma falls off mid to late game as a mage. This needs to be addressed if you think about doing anything with her. She shifts from a mage to a dirty shield bot that builds only shield enhancing items.
A new passive that plays off of her theme more. Are we asking too much of you? No. You couldn't be bothered to address it the past four years, but does she really need it? Nope. She needs something though. You created this bland champion.

Karma's main problems are her gameplay identity, poorly conceptualized and worked on theme, and art issues. These are all things I do not even think you are going to touch with this "rework (shield buff)" you plan to do on her. The least you can do is communicate with us before the changes to live so you are not wasting your time. Keep Karma in a pathetic state so she is viable for a VGU if you don't plan on doing anything meaningful on her.

InfernapeSep 22, 20179 votes

Do we need to nerf Twitch before pre-season hits and upheaves the state of balance for a bit anyway?

Oh. Wow. It finally might be happening.

TNing of PineSep 22, 20171 votes

Could you talk a bit about the reasons why CDR rather than gold generation was chosen when buffing the Spellthief's line? Is it intentional that choosing Spellthief should mean giving up massive amounts of gold compared to choosing Coin even when you're getting Spellthief procs consistently as fast as the item allows? If so, what's the rationale behind this? And if not, is there any plan to look at the items' respective gold generation levels to bring them more in line with each other?

RiotMeddlerSep 22, 20175 votes

We wanted to distinguish the support items more, rather than always giving them similar effects. That meant pushing Frost Queen's line towards more combative stats (CDR in this case) and in a way that leaves you happier sitting on it at Tier 2. Coin by contrast's then got more gold generation but less in combat power, and has a stronger argument for upgrading it earlier.

DeathBurstSep 22, 20177 votes

I have to disagree with the end of that reasoning.

If you give up combat stats in favor of more gold generation with Coin, it's because you want to rush a core item sooner. So you won't upgrade it earlier, even though the Coin T3 is more attractive than the Edge T3, because you'll buy that core Item first.

Does your data actually confirm that people upgrade Coin earlier than Spellthief and am I just making a fool of myself?

EROTIC RAID BOSSSep 22, 201710 votes

That gold translates into combat power though and its more versatile since you can choose what to buy to get that power. Idk if gold generation is a healthy way to distinguish these items