Quick Gameplay Thoughts: June 8

RiotMeddler·6/8/2018, 3:33:07 PM·1 votes·112,158 views

Hi folks,

Usual Disclaimers

These posts will often contain talk about future work we're doing, or planning to do, that isn't yet guaranteed to ship. The nature of the work could change or, depending on what we discover, projects mentioned may get put delayed or even stopped. If you'd like to see a Tweet whenever a new one of these posts goes up: https://twitter.com/RiotMeddler

Botlane

We’re monitoring a lot of stuff in bot lane right now, particularly performance of different groups of champions (crit ADCs, versus non crit ADCs, versus non ADCs etc). Seeing a lot of upheaval as people experiment with different builds and picks, with some champs still struggling so far. Should have some extended thoughts on that and possible changes in response first post of next week.

Edit: Adding a bit extra at time of posting.

If, as some folks are claiming, crit ADCs are in a terrible spot and should never be picked anywhere, we'll definitely we'll address that. Our goal is to have them be a decent (not mandatory, but decent) option in bot lane at a minimum. Certainly seeing some concern they just won't have a home at all, which is a very understandable worry. Still working to distinguish which of the different positions being argued are accurate though. As above, hoping to have more concrete thoughts next post.


Banner of Command

As you might have seen we’re going to remove Banner from the game in 8.12, at least for the short-medium term. It's an item that's pretty consistently been either a poor choice or, when strong, been unhealthy for the game overall. Not impossible some heavily revised version returns someday, likely in a preseason or midseason if so. No immediate plans for that however.


Kindred W

As a follow up to Kindred's 8.12 buffs we're also potentially returning the Heal on W for 8.13. Change is just going into testing now, so it's not a certain thing yet. Tentative plan is to remove the monster AS slow and replace it with a heal that scales with Kindred's missing health.

While we're working on the W already we're also hitting a couple of notable bugs with it. The first is that some of Wolf's visual effects aren't playing properly when he hits, making the skill less satisfying to use and a bit harder to follow. The second is that Wolf's Attack Speed isn't scaling properly with item purchases.

** Rageblade**

Changes to Rageblade are likely in 8.13, we're still sorting out the details though. We've got a range of opinions internally on exactly what Rageblade should/shouldn't be and how close it is to that state. We need to talk through a bunch of stuff as a result, things like how much it should be a rush item versus a later-in-the game multiplier for on-hit builds, how much AP scaling it should/shouldn't have (does it remove distinction between AP and on-hit builds too much?), what sort of price point it should sit at etc.


Some other 8.13 work

Some of the other stuff we're also working on during 8.13 below.

  • Ornn - Continuing work from 8.12 that wasn't ready to ship.
  • Ashe/Xayah - Looking at their kit specific interactions with crit, now that IE's changed.
  • Karma - Likely she'll be one of the most in need of work post 8.12 heal/shield changes. Penciling her in for a look as a result.
  • Pyke - Looking at whether AD purchases are appropriately rewarded, or whether he's too skewed towards building tank/utility when played optimally (open question, not a firm statement)
  • Ongoing assessment of the state of bot lane.
  • There'll also be a range of additional champion buffs/nerfs that happen a bit later in the cycle, so this isn't a comprehensive list. Likely includes a Trynd buff, potentially a Singed nerf.

http://ddragon.leagueoflegends.com/cdn/6.24.1/img/champion/Ziggs.png

420 Comments

Penultimately6/8/2018, 3:43:34 PM29 votes

Proud to see Kindred getting some attention. Marksman junglers are some of the most fun I've ever had in League and Kindred has so much potential. I really hope the W healing goes through as well since that would make her clears & consequently scuttle contest game a lot stronger.

IxtaliKing6/8/2018, 3:36:22 PM22 votes

Is the Karma work going to be the mechanical changes you mentioned previously, or small compensation buffs?

Also, will the work be aimed at her solo-laning or support?

Pokemonred2006/8/2018, 3:43:56 PM18 votes

Wait, Kindred's W heal is coming back? Am I dreaming? Did you just say this?

I missed my baby's heal :D

Vanjie6/8/2018, 4:59:32 PM15 votes

Karma - Likely she'll be one of the most in need of work post 8.12 heal/shield changes. Penciling her in for a look as a result.

I've had several conversations with you over the years about her, Meddler. I'm not going to go into it again and be rude. I really want a response as to what exactly is going to be done on this champion. It's been 5 years and 6 months. I ask if you are not going to address what is wrong with Karma, don't work on her at all. When you do small little number tweaks that don't address the core problems with Karma, it gets nerfed and she is waiting another year or two for the same type of work. I mean you buffed her Mantra E and it was nerfed a few months later. Nothing the Developers have done on this kit is working out and some of us have been telling you this for years. The following needs to be addressed or don't bother working on Karma.

  1. Move Karma's current passive to her Ultimate. Karma needs a new passive that makes her more interactive with other parts of her kit or gameplay. Give Karma auto attack passive so she is rewarded for making risky plays and it plays off of the AA feature of her current passive.

  2. Karma's W or Mantra W needs some sort of ally function. The Mantra W needs scalings that fit a mage more than a tank. The current Mantra W is being abused and it is not fun to play against. This is probably one of the worst abilities in her kit that needs a lot of work or just be replaced with something all together.

  3. Karma's Mantra E needs to be completely re-imagined. Karma's Mantra E is two item actives bundled into one ability. It's not unique, it is not fun, and it doesn't offer anything unique to the game. History has shown the only part of her kit that is ever worked on Karma is this ability and it is not even that special. Simply putting Shield Bomb back on Karma is not going to solve the problems either. It was removed from Karma for the wrong reasons and put on a new champion, Ivern. Simply putting the ability back on her is not going to make her any better and she will be compared to Ivern. Give us something unique with Kamra's Mantra E because you never should have removed Shield Bomb in the first place. Karma needs a new way to use her shields and that doesn't necessarily mean it has to be shield bomb or the current iteration of it.

  4. Give Karma an actual identity other than some generalist champion that can do sub-par things that other champions do 10x better. Her Mantra abilities fit different types of playstyles which gives Karma no true identity. It's not good gameplay, good champion design, and it is not fun to play as or against. Karma needs an identity, but that doesn't mean that identity should be a support that sits in the back and presses Mantra E the entire game. Serious work needs to be done on Karma to discover exactly WHO she is and what she offers to the game. Karma does a lot of things that another champion does much better.


What will not be addressed but should be addressed:

  1. Karma has incomplete art assets such as no shield casting animation or running animation. She has a taunt that already exists on a champion. Her VO and interactions no longer work with her new lore and was never very exciting or completed to begin with.

In conclusion, Meddler, Karma doesn't need a VGU before a plethora of champions that need it. Karma's model isn't even that terrible compared to other ones. The problem is 5 years and 6 months ago she was given a relaunch that removed practically everything players loved about her. Since that relaunch nothing has been done to bring back things players liked and it has been very frustrating trying to get any Developer to communicate and actually work on Karma. There should be no excuse that in 5 years and 6 months that Karma cannot get any "real" work done on her. Players don't mean to be mean, hurt your feelings, and insult you. They are fed up and tired of it. New champions get prioritized reworks, popular champions get prioritized reworks, and the same champions that actually need a lot of work get ignored year after year. Enough is enough.

I apologize to you if I get feisty and hurt your feelings. It is not my intent. I am just sick and tired of beating an old horse to no avail.

  • Miss Vanjie.
Zena6/8/2018, 3:43:13 PM13 votes

Finally Kindred is getting some love they deserve.. Also, increase their base movement speed..

no to toxic6/8/2018, 3:40:49 PM11 votes

Yes please bring the heal back. Maybe even add 5 movemenspeed so that Mordekaiser isn´t outrunning Kindred.

Sparr1266/8/2018, 5:13:37 PM10 votes

is there any news about lissandra?

ARE YOU PC BRO6/8/2018, 3:34:39 PM10 votes

KARMA?! Karma YESSSS

Jaycen bOrnn6/8/2018, 3:40:43 PM9 votes

Good morning Meddler,

With Banner being removed, do you have any concern over Zz’rot Portal becoming a more dominant item, and if so, do you feel Portal is balanced atm?

Also reaching back to one of the more unused items, do you have anything in mind for Ohmwrecker?

Cheers

longtimegone6/12/2018, 7:59:33 PM8 votes

Singed On this post I want to share my thoughts about Singed being currently a braindead champion and on a really unhealthy spot . Note that I am main Singed: I started to play him on season 6 and my opinion is built in more than 1500 Singed games on low Diamond elo.

**WHY IS SINGED UNHEALTHY: ** The reason is that he has developped a playstyle that requires no skill or knowledge on the champion and gives no room for counterplay.

  • What is the strategy behind his playstyle?
    Proxy and roam: you build cheap utility items and force skirmishes on the jungle, ganks mid, get deep vision etc.
  • Why is that playstyle braindead and rewarding ? You avoid your laner, so you dont need any skill with Singed or match ups knowledge while you greatly outpressure him because your opponent cant match your roams without losing cs.
  • Why doesn´t it admit counterplay? Singed doesn´t lose anything because you take the cs in advance by proxying. You dont get punished for it, there is no risk or drawback, apart from doing a bad play. Even using important cooldowns like flash or your ultimate doesnt matter because you dont lane anyway.

THE PROBLEM BEHIND IT: the biggest problem is that Singed is forced to play like that, his laning phase has gradually become really weak, specially since runes reforged. From my perspective Singed playstyle is all in oriented: he must be vulnerable to harrass, he loses short trades on equal conditions (minion aggro, gold spent, champion level, etc.) BUT he should be able to kill his opponent in a well calculated all in.

However he cant. The main problem is Second Wind ( paired with Doran´s shield passive). I dont have the data and tools to check if Second Wind is too strong in general but it certainly destroys DoT champions (Im pretty sure it is healing them more than my aery damage). Im not sure about the next because I lack tools to contrast it but Singed base stats feel weak (HP early levels, even taking Doran's ring).

IDEAS TO IMPROVE THE SITUATION

  • Remove proxy: it is just an unfair mechanich, maybe giving minions damage reduction while they arrive to lane.
  • Change the way Singed gets bonus MS, specially early mid game so he cant reliably dive mid laners: this one is really hard but maybe make his ultimate MS decaying or simply nerfing it early. Another idea might be to switch the MS boosts completely to his passive: possibly giving him % bonus MS towards enemy and allied champions.
  • Make Second Wind less effective vs DoT, in my opinion changing some of its mechanichs and adjusting the numbers accordingly, for example: make the healing scale on total health or on the amount of damage received on the last x seconds (instead of missing health) or giving it some sort of internal cooldown
Vhan87656/8/2018, 5:33:12 PM8 votes

Any reason why Ori is getting hit next patch with the shield nerfs? Ori support really isn't too large of a thing and the mage update awhile back already didn't do her any good; hate to see a champion nerfed when they're already not doing the best.

Tuyangtudai6/8/2018, 10:21:38 PM6 votes

any chance we will see a mini antiheal item for mages instead of the blasting wand its kinda silly to see ad dmg dealer get antiheal item for 800g item 3123 tanks for 1000g in bramble vest item 3076 while mages have to pay 3000g for endgame item in morelloes item 3165

Spideraxe6/8/2018, 3:46:40 PM6 votes

Can I ask how Yasuo landed post hotfix, are CertainlyT/Stashu looking into further passive changes since I heard that was a possibility

Uber Dragon6/8/2018, 8:20:22 PM6 votes

Hey Meddler, it would be great if those two minor bugs on Kindred Kindred could be sorted out as well:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=41CLeGz_zKA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qsltuJ7J6AE

Thanks a ton!

Ataraxas6/8/2018, 5:38:21 PM5 votes

Hear me out on this Meddler, please do not rush-buff crit ADCs. Rush buffing them without having enough time to analyze statistics and without giving people enough time to adjust will solve nothing from the problems we had before the ADC mid-season update. Most crit ADC players have gotten used to being OP since crit has been OP for quite a while now. So please, do not rush buff crit again because of mass complaints without sufficient data. That'll only make us end back up at where we were before the update. I have finally been able to enjoy a few games as melee without getting insta-bursted by crit ADCs, so please let that stay.

armatsu6/8/2018, 3:52:50 PM4 votes

Last zyra's change wasnt actually for mid lane zyra. Any thoughts about current not-support-zyra state?

PandaNator436/8/2018, 3:42:26 PM4 votes

Outside of threads directly from Rioters, the boards seem to be a cesspool of negativity. Sure, that negativity has some real pain behind it, and that pain might come from actual problems with the game, but trying to wade through it is exhausting.

Is Riot looking at changes to the boards to make it easier to find actual constructive threads? Is it even possible? Or will hyperbole, anecdotal evidence and baby rage always bubble its way to the surface?

Rmlthl6/8/2018, 3:40:25 PM3 votes

Are you happy with the fact bruisers and possibly mages are going to be played bot lane now?

DargosArczein6/8/2018, 4:12:06 PM3 votes

That's awesome to know that you're monitoring the crit interactions, as it's a real limiter on some champion. Would that be including how Stormrazor interacts too?

And is there any news on the Aatrox rework? I'm dead excited to see what you've changed :D

Sir Rouge6/8/2018, 4:19:10 PM3 votes

Hello Meddler,

About Syndra, it was mentionned that you guys would look where the Q passive revert puts her and help her if need be. The Q passive revert was great (much better design), but it wasn't a straight buff because it took the old Q passive away, and so wasn't that much power added.

It is clear now that it wasn't enough to put her up to par. She's still weak. Would you guys consider looking to help her in 8.13? If so, what would you guys consider? Base stats? Cooldowns? Mana costs? Something else?

jocomotion6/8/2018, 10:28:49 PM3 votes

YES!Karma

FlufyBunnyRengar6/8/2018, 3:46:43 PM2 votes

Thoughts on how ad assassins are doing so far with the new Last Whisper?

Wh4t6/8/2018, 3:55:24 PM2 votes

give some love to Corki Corki pls

Smithy2Q6/8/2018, 3:56:32 PM2 votes

Any further thoughts on the 'boosting' strategy with Taric+Yi, or variations of it? It's becoming more popular, and it seems to be warping the games when it happens.