Early Game Changes Update

RiotMeddler·Jul 25, 2016·1 votes·59,743 views

Hi folks,

Quick update on the early game changes we talked about last week (link below for anyone unfamiliar with them).

http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/developer-corner/B2y4p4vE-pre-worlds-early-game-update

Over the last few days we've been gathering feedback from a number of pro players, coaches and analysts from multiple regions. One of the big reoccurring comments was that the collateral damage from the cannon minion change was much higher than we were accounting for. General feeling was that while it would make it more costly to lane swap (desired), it would also disrupt a lot of other play, strategic movement especially, later on in the game in the 5 to 20 minute period (undesired). Based off that concern, some follow up playtesting and some strong arguments that the other changes would already add significant cost to lane swapping, we've decided to remove the cannon minion change. We believe that we need to make changes to encourage more early game interaction, the cannon minion change looks like a case of too high a price for that though, at least at this time of year.

Some good questions were also raised about the tower AI changes currently scheduled for a later patch. We haven't got those into playtesting yet, but will be investigating those issues as soon as we can, particularly around their effects on early risk taking. It's possible we might end up delaying some of those AI changes to Pre-Season. We believe they'll be good for the game once tuned appropriately, might or might not be the right time for them though. We'll assess whether or not they make sense once we've seen what the impact of 6.15 is like and once we've been able to get some feedback on them direct in game, PBE included.

We also particularly want to get feedback from a number of pro teams that we haven't spoken with, especially given there are some regions we haven't yet been able to get more organized feedback from. While we aren't planning any other major systemic changes before pre-season we will tweak existing numbers if appropriate in patches 6.16-6.18 (thinks like Fortification duration, amount of gold for first tower kill etc). Ongoing feedback's going to be especially valuable there.

TLDR: No cannon minion changes Might delay some of the tower AI changes

73 Comments

Deep Terror NamiJul 25, 201623 votes

While you guys are looking at tower AI and with the precedence of the tower spells from the new RGM Nexus Siege, I encourage you to look at new opportunities for Ohmwrecker :3

MythHuntAug 22, 20161 votes

What if instead of dissabling the turret, ohmwrecker changes it allegiance for 3 secs. Attacking the enemies or enemy minions instead of you or allied minions?

The Yetii RiderJul 25, 201610 votes

Ugh, really?

Look, the cannon change, sure. That's more about the pros being able to macro and it's not that relevant to watch and if they think it's going to hurt more than help then that's fine. But the turret AI change?

Meddler, I hate Elise in the LCS because of how ridiculously unfair she is at early game diving and simply pressing a button to escape from it. That's not skillful, it's not a play that's going to make me say "Whoa! Svenskeren just won his team the game with that early aggression". It's a play that will make me say "Ugh. Sure, let's just give this jungler a bonus Flash that lets her get out of turret range while also canceling any turret shot currently coming at her, and no one else has this...this is fair. There was counterplay to this. Elise just needs to occupy a ban slot at all times if they don't want to deal with this."

It's obnoxious. Early game dives should still work, but the trade off for diving someone who is full health should be "Okay, we gave up a kill, but we got more assists because we were grouped up, so we still came out ahead". Not, "Oh, well he's full health, so we just send in Elise first and she presses a button and we're good."

Released ApeJul 26, 20168 votes

No one else has this? Whats with Yi Q, Vladimir W, Fizz E or a bit different Kalista R?

Elise is ofc a great jungler, but only calling her "unfair" because she can early dive with sucess is ridciolus.

Capt HooksJul 26, 20165 votes

doesn't shaco do all of this plus he goes invis for like 6 seconds?

I am RazgrizJul 26, 20161 votes

Yes and no. Turrets (and you) can still see him when he Qs and will still target. If he ults that's different, but the clone has to take aggro first next.

Also, Yi and Fizz can totally do what he said too.

KumouriAug 3, 20161 votes

As can Vladimir.

Sailor MintJul 25, 20166 votes

Does this mean cannon minion changes are not making it live tomorrow?

They are still listed in the official 6.15 patch notes.

RiotMeddlerJul 25, 20168 votes

That's correct, the cannon changes won't go live tomorrow. We'll update the patch notes soon.

midoriiJul 25, 20163 votes

Aww, that was the one change I was really looking forward to.

blessthekellenJul 25, 20163 votes

Thank the lordy. err i mean Meddler...y

I AM BOOSTEDJul 25, 20161 votes

i'm sure if sir RiotLyte was still working with you , this tower changes would never make it to live. i don't need a Phd in toxicity to tell you that flame toward the losing botlane will increase.

SiytherJul 26, 20161 votes

only thing that scares me about the tower changes is that ita already bad enough getting 4 man dived at level 6 in the bot lane every game, the tower changes seem to make that early 4 or 5 man dive a must and thats bad for anyone that enjoys playing the bot lane. I could see a possible effect of these tower changes being even longer que times waiting on a support and adc. Since this might make that lane so unfun to play that ppl flat refuse to do so. I hope that doesnt happen but im an adc main and it has happen to me so much recently that i have abandoned the lane comepletely and it just might get worse

Scout101547Jul 26, 20164 votes

You really need to note on the notes themselves that you've edited out major changes and what those changes entail. It's ridiculous when we need to backtrack other confused comments to a random forum post to figure out that major points of game balance.

I am RazgrizJul 26, 20161 votes

They're going to do that. Right now the cannon minion changes are actually going live. The changes are being hotfixed out. When they do, they'll update the patch notes.

http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/developer-corner/2YORAqEJ-early-game-changes-update?comment=000300000005

RiotMeddlerJul 26, 20166 votes

Quick update on this update to an update. Looks like the changes might be live for a few hours before they're disabled in a couple of regions (removing the cannon minion change is basically a hotfix, rather than a change to the outgoing patch, so some slight delay might happen in a few places).

SiytherJul 26, 20161 votes

thanks for not shipping that. It was really confusing at first to try to figure out. Once i figured out where and when cannon minions would be it felt a very wtf feeling on my tongue.LOL

Mag1cJul 25, 20166 votes

Kudos, Meddler. Really glad you and the team are listening and compromising.

SlashStrikerJul 25, 20164 votes

do you have any interest in giving the minions special abilities?

RiotMeddlerJul 25, 20164 votes

Might at some point, that'd almost certainly be a mid-season or pre-season change though unless it was the best way to solve a specific, urgent problem.

VenedictosJul 25, 20165 votes

That would be too much complexity for the game. I think it would be okay for a special game mode, but being added to the competitive mode of League would result in yet one more factor that players are required to weigh into every decision they make. Weren't the minion changes in preseason enough?

RiotMeddlerJul 26, 20168 votes

I'd argue that depends on the abilities in question. There are already a couple in game as cannon minions take reduced tower damage and draw tower agro before other minions, super minions give off a defensive aura to other nearby minions. Could imagine similar types of changes to caster and melee minions that avoided excessive complexity while still adding some good gameplay.

ModCaptainMårvelousJul 26, 20164 votes

Why not try putting that on Banner of Command? Right now it's mostly just "Slap it on a cannon minion with no thought" or decision making. If Banner could have a unique buff for each minion, it might make things more useful. Better siege damage on mage, defense aura on melee, etc etc etc.

PeponiPoroJul 29, 20162 votes

This. I've had similar thoughts about Banner of Command in the past.

DesireZJul 27, 20161 votes

there already is, the mode black market brawlers:3

EROTIC RAID BOSSJul 25, 20164 votes

Just because I'm curious I'd like to hear specifically what makes the cannon change disruptive

RiotMeddlerJul 26, 20165 votes

High expected impact on map rotations, including risk of forcing specific rotation patterns versus allowing more adaptive play. Possible the changes might work out fine after a number of months of play, so maybe we'll explore them again for a pre-season or something. Wrong time for them though at present at least.

EROTIC RAID BOSSJul 26, 20162 votes

if the current changes are enough to appropriately curb laneswaps, would there still be value in changing the cannon minions?

CrazFight Jul 25, 20163 votes

Meddler are you afraid the turrent changes could lead to a large snowball meta, which I don't think many people enjoy.

hopeful4Jul 25, 20162 votes

Its great that you are finally talking with people from the pro scene.

And a question, did you ask about what they think that should be done to further promote more "action"? Ive seen some of them saying that if global movement would be accessible to everyone (with TP becoming trinket or a consumable), that would lead to more deadly fights. What is your opinion on that?

Paladin ToastJul 26, 20162 votes

It's a bit upsetting that it seems like you are making adjustments to the game solely based on pro play, which makes up maybe around 1% of the player base. The changes to Azir who has terrible win rates across the board, other then in pro play. The failure to fix Kalista and instead nerf her to the point of uselessness in any elo below diamond. I'm glad you went back on these changes at least.

PestilentialJul 26, 20165 votes

Buddy, Pro play is WAYYYY less than 1%.

Azazel AerternumJul 26, 20164 votes

Pro Play is less than 0.1% of the player base.

VenedictosJul 25, 20161 votes

I still do believe the extra call for help for the turret AI should be added. This is a mechanic that should have a existed a long time ago. The way turrets fuction right now it's very counter-intuitive. I'm sitting right next to my turret, an enemy right under it is attacking me, but my turret isn't protecting me because I'm just a few steps outside it's range. How does that even make sense...

RiotMeddlerJul 25, 20163 votes

We'll almost certainly add that change. The only question is whether we do so pre Worlds or just post Worlds.

ElewdJul 26, 20163 votes

it should probably happen post worlds, for the sole reason being there can be bugs and glitches in it, there is a new learning curve to towerdiving people would need to adjust to and its not something you can learn in a couple days. its kind of a drastic change.

GrrvJul 26, 20161 votes

What in particular was it about the cannon minion change that would affect pro play? Were pros rotating their primary carries lane to lane just to pick up cannon minions?

RiotMeddlerJul 26, 20161 votes

Pushing power was the bigger concern than gold income. Cannons make an enormous difference in ability to take down towers, given they both take hits before other squishier minions and take reduced damage from towers.

Kei143Jul 26, 20162 votes

Would it make a major difference if the cannon spawned on the top lane first then?

Just a bronzie trying to understand how small things change the game.

ShadowsliverJul 26, 20161 votes

Will the first blood tower change still make it?

One of the things I find absolutely stupid atm on tournaments is how a lot of game start with 3 man top pushing a tower, nobody cares and 3 men bot pushing a tower and no one cares, like it's some tradition, they're not even trying to defend it.

Call me old fashioned but I feel like every tower should matter, especially in the first 5 minutes of the game.

RiotMeddlerJul 26, 20163 votes

Yes, the tower first blood bonus is still in there.

SkiasJul 26, 20163 votes

{quoted}

Yes, the tower first blood bonus is still in there.

The Tower First blood if taken by Top is turning enemies instantly into brick walls. The snowball is absolutely incredible. Is there a chance we will have snowball reduced elsewhere to compensate? Junglers feel no need to help Top now and it just feels completely awful.

Silver SingedJul 26, 20161 votes

I could not be more delighted to hear this news. The 3rd wave canon is critical for resetting the wave after an early game proxy on singed. You leave the Canon alive and let it execute you, and it pushes the lane back out to somewhere you can access it.

LeyinJul 26, 20161 votes

Do you planned to add a ping type that shows your allies that a special enemy is miss? Maybe you can use the questionmarks in the TAB-menu to ping on them to show: Enemy XY is missing or so

Hyrum GraffJul 27, 20161 votes

While you're looking at towers, can you also take a look at their power?

Specifically, it feels too easy to tower dive without minions at the 12-13 minute mark. Particularly mobile champions, and of those particularly champions who can dodge the 4th (fully charged) tower shot.

When diving with minions around, you can position nearby your victim in safety, only taking aggro when you actually start killing them. But when Fizz or Yi Q's to you, (or Noc or Vi ult, etc) they essentially bypass the danger of approaching, making the risk level the same as if there were minions nearby.

That's fine for post-20 minutes, maybe even post-15. But at 12 or 13 min I'm still solidly in laning and relying on my turret to be a strong defense if there's no minions nearby (if there's minions, then I'm defending the tower, not the other way around, so it's OK for me to be vulnerable).

AnimusvsAnimaAug 4, 20161 votes

Would it ever be possible to change turret shots to function like a tether? Elise, Vlad and Fizz can't break those with their dodge abilities and it would take a lot of frustration out of their kits and opportunity cost for them diving under a tower for a kill.

LsayuAug 23, 20161 votes

Can you give me an example or reference of what else functions as a tether? (sorry just a bit confused)

13krish13Aug 19, 20161 votes

while you looking let try i now you a great developers. i feel its so great to play

Sami LaaguebAug 19, 20161 votes

hey so what about suggesting names when searching for other players profile or to add them as a friend it would be very nice and make it easier :)[zombie-nunu-hearts]