Quick Gameplay Thoughts: June 30

RiotMeddler·Jun 30, 2017·1 votes·40,747 views

Morning all,

Lighter post today, lot of work on long term stuff not ready to be talked about going on right now.

Usual Disclaimers

These posts will often contain talk about future work we're doing, or planning to do, that isn't yet guaranteed to ship. The nature of the work could change or, depending on what we discover, projects mentioned may get put delayed or even stopped. If you'd like to see a Tweet whenever a new one of these posts goes up: https://twitter.com/RiotMeddler

Diana

As you'll see on the PBE today we're continuing to explore Diana changes in testing. Those aren't intended to be a full fix for Diana's issues (we still expect to do a small update to her gameplay at some point), but are instead intended to put her in a better spot until then. We think it's likely the eventual direction for Diana includes auto attacking as a meaningful part of her kit, so one of the things we're looking it is ways to make that higher impact later in the game.

Garen

Speaking of champions we're doing smaller stuff on now and plan on giving larger gameplay changes later, Garen's in the same boat this patch. We're testing a W change where it's got a short window where it's much more effective when first cast. Goals there are to both give him a bit more power but also a bit more skill expression, with the timing on that cast mattering more. Garen's always been difficult to balance for different skill ranges and part of that's because his kit doesn't give the same degree of reward for mastery over many of its elements that other champs do. This won't fix that by itself of course, but expectation is it'll help somewhat and we'll look for similar changes for the larger changes coming later.

Warded Ping

Is still coming, looks like 7.15 at this point (another casualty of that shorter than usual 7.14 development cycle, with other engineering work that's higher priority pushing it back a patch).

No Posts Next Week

Due a combination of 4th of July having us out of the office and some other stuff going on I won't be able to do these posts next week. Next one should be on the 10th or 11th of July as a result. One thing worth watching out for next week though's that we should be getting a more regular series of Runes posts going, starting next week, with a goal of showing off at least a new thing or two each week until close to pre-season when the full system hits the PBE.

Kayn/Darkin

Non gameplay sidenote, but wanted to call out that a bunch of us, myself very much included, have very much enjoyed the ongoing discussion about what the deal is with the Darkin based off the new info associated with Kayn's reveal, including speculation on future possibilities, whether any other Darkin are already in the roster besides Aatrox etc. Some theories that are pretty out there, or speculative, and some ideas that are pretty accurate. Makes for fun reading.

189 Comments

Fondling GemsJun 30, 201715 votes

Out of curiosity what is the thought process on the Taric changes? At a glance pretty much the whole Taric main discord agrees that it hurts his skill expression in terms of comboing ability and comes with some pretty major buffs tacked on to cap it off.

For a champion that hasn't really been struggling it seems a bit extreme and the buffs don't seem to make a whole lot of sense together. His stun got a damage buff all game, scales CD wise better as it levels, but no longer has a longer stun as it levels up. So it got an overall power buff as well as buffs and nerfs to both it's early and late game.

His heal will almost certainly feel nicer to use but there is no longer any game knowledge required to make use of his passive, since if you get even you have to use multiple abilities in a row without using your passive you still get at least 2 charges to bring your Q off CD since it takes 1 second to aa twice anyways so you can just keep proccing your passive so long as you have mana. As opposed to before where you got maybe 70% efficiency if you were missing out on your passive and not combing properly you now still function at around 90-95% efficiency even if you aren't making use of your passive correctly with the only punishment being more mana expenditure because you have to cast Q more often to get your other abilities up, and even then you are still getting a heal out of it.

The changes just seem a bit out of place and questionable on a champ that doesn't seem to need huge changes.

QuephaJun 30, 20179 votes

Statikk Shiv nerfs look brutal for A LOT of champions, context?

RiotMeddlerJun 30, 20178 votes

Some concern on the team that Shiv's good for too many different things at once. Don't think we'll be shipping changes in 7.14, testing though to understand options for possible future changes.

QuephaJun 30, 20175 votes

I just thought it was weird that the team is looking at taking away the waveclear aspect of it. The "waveclear option" item seems to have become something expected for everybody to have access to (Sunfire, the Tiamat items, Runaan's) so taking this away would be pretty bad for the champions who don't like the other options.

LostFr0stJun 30, 201716 votes

Have you guys tried an option where the chain lightning doesn't jump to champions? As in, If you shiv a minion it stays in the wave. If you Shiv a champ it hits them and then discharges to the wave, not jumping to other champions.

This would make it more situational, since it would no longer be the all-round electrify the enemy team while still being great at pushing side-waves item.

rtbf86942668Jun 30, 20173 votes

Statik siv should be meant for champians who cant waveclear like Vayne. I feel like damage to champions should be reduced significantly and damage to minions increased so low waveclear champions can be viable.

CrabPeopleReformJun 30, 20178 votes

item 3812 Draven opinion ty

risteJun 30, 20177 votes

Hi Meddler, ristiuMMask here. I streamed Garen's PBE changes yesterday with my audience, and boy oh boy, I was excited about this change.

This is exactly what Garen needs. With the first PBE shipment turning Garen's W into just more damage reduction but a shorter cooldown, I was feeling a bit empty about it. But giving this super small window of shrugging off CC with a load of tenacity, on top of a massive amount of damage reduction feels amazing. This will totally raise the skill ceiling for Garen, and playing him actively in Diamond, there is little outplay potential the Demacian soldier has for some lanes. I facetanked an Ashe ultimate yesterday on Stream, but with proper timing, I walked it off in less than a second. It felt really amazing.

The passive changes I also like. There are many games where I simply don't reach level 16. Having a stronger level 11 passive is so much more impacting than having the current live rendition where I'm just passively having a health potion run out of combat. The spin buffs were the icing on the cake, small, but very appreciated. I hope that the buffs to spin will actually help us fight tanks, as Garen has been struggling with that for a while.

I'm making a video right now about why these changes are good. As a Garen enthusiast, I fully support these changes and many other Garen players in our "Garen Players NA" club really look forward to these changes as well.

DeathBurstJun 30, 20173 votes

I do agree that these changes are a step in the right direction, but "This is exactly what Garen needs" sounds like an exaggeration, don't you think? :)

The W change sure increases Garen's ceiling, but it doesn't solve most of the outstanding issues that Garen has, such as the lack of in-combat sustain, or the lack of interactivity in a lot of melee match-ups due to E being an uninterruptible AoE that you HAVE to get in range of if you want to fight Garen as a melee.

And since all of that are just straight buffs without compensation, isn't it too much? Was Garen really in such a bad state? I'm a bit afraid of rebound nerfs...

risteJun 30, 20173 votes

The thing is though if we consider any player who knows how to operate their champion, you're never really going to get a situation where you can hit the enemy without them dishing damage back to you unless they are low and running. It's similar to a Fiora dashing into an Irelia, you're going to get retaliation in any matchup no matter what. Garen may have an aoe spin that can't be stopped once its cast, but that's just a perk of being a juggernaut where most of his competition triumphs him in mobility (Renekton, Irelia, Riven, Shen, Gnar, Fiora, Singed, Camille, J4, Gragas, Hecarim, Aatrox, Jax, Kled, Jayce, Olaf, Rumble, Yasuo, Galio.) On top of that, people who understand Garen's kit will bait him onto their minions, so Garen completely misses the isolation bonus. And to make matters worse for Garen, is that there are many champions that can outdamage Garen even standing in his spin. Irelia, Renekton, and even Shen can do it no problem. Shen has only three abilities to use in lane and still beats Garen in a 1v1 even with Black Cleaver.

It doesn't solve all of his issues, or maybe even binary patterns that typically lower elo's will only express in frustration, but the skill ceiling is absurdly too low for Garen right now. Diamond Garen mains can't even trade evenly with 90% of his matchups. These numbers that are currently testing don't have to be exact. The 90% damage reduction window may even be brought down lower, but Garen's impact in higher elo's falls off tremendously past midgame if his team isn't performing well themselves.

What I enjoy about these changes the most though is that his counterplay is still fully intact. True damage completely bypasses every single second of his W, and he still will be countered by kiting. He will have one new short window to deal with cc, but it still will mean nothing against a Tristana with her ultimate up. Sure, lifesteal is really sub-optimal on Garen, but there would be no healthy way I believe for making any item that could literally allow him to heal substantially off of his spin. This new level 11 passive makes up for it, and really will push a Garen players decision making on when to leave a fight to heal up, or stay until the bloody end.

DeathBurstJul 1, 20173 votes

There has been discussion on those boards about how you could give in combat sustain to Garen. I can dig up the old threads in my history if you're interested, just hit me up. But tl;dr is: It doesn't have to be Lifesteal. (And for what it's worth, Death's Dance works decently well in my low Gold Elo, anyway.)

In fact, old Juggernauts like Nasus or Olaf do have Lifesteal, but most modern executions like Illaoi or post-rework Darius or even the recent mini-rework on Udyr all have heals in %missingHP attached to their abilities. Yorick has a plain flat heal on his Q. Mundo obviously has ton of in-combat regen since it's his whole gimmick. Etc. Garen needs something similar, not his current out-of-combat passive, or at least not only that.

Critmaster Garen made an interesting suggestion: Garen's E could stack a buff when it hits champion, and when the E ends, it triggers the passive regen even if he is in-combat, for a duration based on how many stack you got. This has many good effects on Garen gameplay, but I invite you to go and read the full thread for all the details, if you haven't already. That's the most detailed and promising suggestion, to the best of my knowledge.

And for the records, I do understand Garen gameplay, and I know all the problems you evoked in that second comment. I certainly don't play at the same level as you do (and I love your vid's, it's always a pleasure to watch them, so much to learn, and it's so well presented), but I'm still a Garen main, and I had to go through all those issues myself. But they are more consequences than root causes. Garen damage output is so low compared to other top laners because it is so reliable and uninteractive. If he can access his 100% potential as easily as others can access their 80% potential, his 100% cannot be much higher than their 80%, or he would stomp too hard. So of course, when you get to higher levels where people perform more reliably on average, those other Top who were at 80% can go up to 90, but Garen has nowhere to go.

So yes, we all agree: Garen needs room to fail, if he wants to get a higher ceiling, and yes, this changes are goods. But the point of my answer was more "this is not enough, this must be only the first of many steps, so let's be careful about saying to Riot that this is 'exactly' what Garen needs". I'm not too worried, Meddler himself said there would be more work further down the line, it's just a matter of patience.

However, I really wonder if they can afford to buff Garen that much. Sure, the W changes will have no impact in Silver and below, but they flat-out buffed the E, and the passive buff won't be negligible in the lower divisions, where Garen is noticeably less struggling than in Plat and Diamond. I hope these buffs are here to stick, and won't be followed by nerfs a couple patches from now.

SILVERAMMOJun 30, 20171 votes

I wanna see the recording lol sounds so cool.

risteJul 1, 20172 votes

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TQ_cETm4-xM

CàneJun 30, 20175 votes

I'd like to know your thoughts on Sivir and Quinn. Both seem to be quiet underwhelming and are outperformed by a lot of other champions. Also do you have any information on kalista's rework?

Yordle XayahJun 30, 20175 votes

Tristana

SecondComingJun 30, 20175 votes

Hello good sir @Meddler

Very happy that I finally read about Garen, I was asking many times (and got no answer :( ). Really grateful that, while you acknowledge that he needs larger gameplay changes and the window to show skill on the champ is very small or not even there, you give him some love in the meantime cause he is really struggling.

Glad to see tenacity back on Courage, nice thought, the removal of it was one of the (many) things that hurt him, he needs to be able to absorb CC (instead of just punishment) for his team or himself if he gets gangbanged by 3+ opponents. The slow resist + tenacity mastery doesn't give much and it's a common denominator. Since you're experimenting with Courage, I'd like to ask, what's the thought process behind the resistances he gets from the passive part having a cap? Sion has no cap, Nasus has no cap, Veigar has no cap, Bard has no cap etc Why Garen only must have a cap? I don't think it's that OP and game-breaking, especially since it comes in small (and lame) doses of 0,25 per creep kill and I think it would help him a lot, especially in games that drag and he has completed his build.

Excited to see what else you have in store for him. Imho, E and R can remain as is or mostly as is (maybe give the ult AD scaling at long last? Or reduced cd if he successfully executes the Villain?) while passive, Q and W (which seems to be getting at a good spot) can be looked at since they leave much room for work. For example, with Warmog's, everyone can get a free Garen passive at maximum efficiency right off the bat (the requirement is easier now). Hopefully, he'll be able to compete with others with "overloaded" kits (he's only viable top, maybe jungle too but not that good, and others could easily bully him out of lane or just straight kill, like release Camille was a nightmare to face and she could be played literally EVERYWHERE).

Enjoy the 4th of July vacation :)

iahim98Jun 30, 20174 votes

Hey maddler, can you look at this changes to duskblade for its vision denial passive https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/nX462cFK-meddler-some-changes-to-duskblade-for-the-vision-denial-part-of-the-item

Blue Moon WolfJun 30, 20174 votes

Any word on MonkeyKing now that the Diver update is canned and weather he will be getting an update or not?

Sun Wu RyuumokuJun 30, 20172 votes

yeah, my main need to be adressed, via a rework. I think most of divers need it.

Apex NightravenJun 30, 20173 votes

Two Questions:

Any details on the Yasuo update/direction to share? Or is it still too early in development to share anything?

How has Kayn been faring in terms of PBE? Really interested to know how everyone feels on the general balance on Rhaast and Shadow Assassin. From personal experience, I find them both to be good and fun in their specific circumstances, but I'd like to know what Riot thinks of him so far!

ScopéJun 30, 20173 votes

Hi Meddler! Any thoughts on Kindred? How is she doing after the buffs?

RiotMeddlerJun 30, 20174 votes

Bit early to say. Buffs of that magnitude (small ish) take a little while to assess well. We're confident they needed some extra power, not yet sure whether that was the right amount added yet.

PentaBruhJun 30, 20173 votes

not sure that my opinion is the best base, but ive played a few games on her and it feels pretty nice with these buffs. But, i'm still feeling the clunkiness of her execute being coupled with a slow (finishing move also being her engage)

Lebłanc BotJun 30, 20173 votes

Any update on Leblanc ? I know you made a board about directions with azir do you think you will do the same for Leblanc ?

RiotMeddlerJun 30, 20175 votes

I expect we will at some point.

zippyHDJun 30, 20171 votes

"At some point" such a good answer(not) is it before or after worlds, you need it more detailed?

ShadowParkerJun 30, 20177 votes

You do realize this kind of stuff takes time right? Don't be impatient if you want it to turn out well.

Big LincolnJun 30, 20173 votes

Hey Meddler,

Is Cho'Gath still getting his E update this PBE cycle? Or is he being pushed back to iron it out more?

GrandpaTheGreatJun 30, 20173 votes

Is Singed's passive on the pbe intended to work with allied champions?

LiteUpSketchersJun 30, 20173 votes

Cho'Gath?

xReverieJun 30, 20173 votes

Diana I'm really looking forward to the Diana buffs. They look awesome!

https://twitter.com/ricklessabandon/status/880923449258000384

NorthmundJul 1, 20171 votes

Diana main? If yes you think item 3100 + item 3115 will be op combo?

xReverieJul 4, 20173 votes

{quoted}

Diana main? If yes you think + will be op combo?

Lich bane in particular. Nashors likely not required.

jadelinkJul 1, 20173 votes

I like the look of the changes to the Thornmail build path on the pbe. Giving defence against the great mass of bork/ravenous rushing skirmishers top seems essential to toplane balance.

But has any thought been given to the way this will make champions like Yi even harder to handle lategame? Currently a thornmail tank can distract him long enough that an adc can whittle him down. Now, with deaths dance + bork he is going to slice the tank into little bits, whilst taking an adcs damage with deaths dance and his lifesteal, and then kill the adc.

Wet DrymanJun 30, 20172 votes

Hello Meddler, What do you think about current state of Gragas? You think that he is OK, maybe you guys have him on radar or are planning something for him? I'm asking because he seems like a toptier pick in LCS once again and his pickrate in Solo Q especially in higher elo is high currently.

RiotMeddlerJun 30, 20177 votes

I'm not a huge fan of his impact on the game personally, I'll have to pick the Live Gameplay team's thoughts on him though. He hasn't been on their watch list the last couple of patches at least, seems like a good candidate to consider though as we've got a couple of patches coming up that are more pro play focused than usual.

Wet DrymanJun 30, 20174 votes

Thanks for the anwser. May I know what you personally would change about him or what's causing his impact?

Water StealerJun 30, 20171 votes

as someone who visually loves gragas, the fact that he's built like a weird mage is disappointing. i'd appreciate more effort going into cementing him as a tank and not as an ap fighter. some health scalings would be nice for a start.

Wet DrymanJun 30, 20178 votes

As a Bruiser Gragas enthusiast pls no. There's nothing wrong with champion having offmeta builds as long as it's not ridiculous balance wise (for example AP Trynda and AP Yi). Though I would like him to be pushed into Bruiser role as his rework back in 2014 was about making him Fighter with Tank as a secondary (unforunately secondary role became primary one).

CátarinaJun 30, 20172 votes

Hey Meddler, any updates on Syndra? Do you think her W nerf put her in a reasonable place?

You said something about how you were discussing her R internally before, but nothing was said after that. Just a little concerned since I play her a bit myself.

RiotMeddlerJun 30, 20174 votes

No immediate plans for further changes at least. The R is still a topic of some disagreement internally (not an uncommon occurrence, especially with champs that have been balance challenges at times).

Overlord ForteJun 30, 20175 votes

Piggy backing--in regards to Syndra's code state, what sort of value proposition is necessary for a full code wipe and rewrite? There's a history of bugs, malfunctioning performance, and other micro issues that crop up around her whenever she is 'changed' in anyway that have plagued her for, literally, years. Prior fixes coming undone, etcetra.

The Tasty TamponJun 30, 20174 votes

Very rarely, if ever, is the burn it down and rewrite it approach appropriate. If code doesn't work as well as intended its better to fix it than to replace it because the new code is likely to be just as bug ridden as the old, and your engineers won't necessarily know the new code any better than the old.

This is all addressed in greater detail here and although that particular post is addressing full code rewrites, the principle is the same with large sized chunks of code.

Water StealerJun 30, 20172 votes

the internal change that leaked a while ago where enemies take more damage from the ult if they've been hit by syndra's other spells recently seemed genius to me. lower the base damage a tad and encourage actually landing spells.

EnlegacyJul 1, 20172 votes

Hey meddler, just some shower thoughts, but what if syndra's ult was turned into a skill shot like heimer w,where all the spheres are launched from their current locations and hit things along the way? It would certainly tune down the frustrating nature of her ult and put a lot more skill expression into her kit.

La BelloJun 30, 20172 votes

As a Garen player I think you guys are hitting the wrong spots. Garens problem is not his survivability its his kiteability and his completely transparent playstyle that requires that he either outstat you completely or him to be a bushmonster. you can buff and adjust Garen all you wont but until this is addressed he still wont see play at meaningful ranks( same as Chogath ).I recommend messing around with his Villain passive and maybe trading some damage for more utility.

Some bonus movespeed moving towards villains and some sort of buff(personal or teamwide) on successful Judgment executions would be a good start .

Otherwise the only other way Garen will begin to see play would be if item 3800 had its mana removed for something else that became really efficient on the big G.

AevilokJul 1, 20174 votes

He's a juggernaut. Kiteable is what defines them. It's the tradeoff for having huge damage and tankiness

420 gramsJun 30, 20171 votes

A lot of the pro games I've seen with rek sai have them building cinderhulk and titanic into tank. Have you thought about switching the q ratio from bonus ad to total ad to make this build feel right?

DeathBurstJun 30, 20176 votes

Probably not. If I understood correctly, their goal with this mini-update was to steer Rek'sai AWAY from this kind of builds, not to make it feel right.

RiotMeddlerJun 30, 20176 votes

Yup. We want building AD on Rek'Sai to be a better choice than it's been in the past (often a trap). That's not to say it's terrible if she builds some tankier stuff too, but AD items should be a good choice more often than historically.