Current Thoughts on Marksmen

RiotMeddler·Jan 5, 2017·1 votes·140,839 views

Hi folks,

We’ve just got back from the holiday break and I wanted to talk about how we see the game at present. In the next couple of weeks we’ll be putting out a longer ‘State of the Game’ post. Right now though we figured it’d be good to share some thoughts on bot lane marksmen.

We’ve seen quite a bit of feedback that marksmen feel weak in bot lane, lacking power and agency. Thoughts on that below, along with some things we need to look into further.

Things we’re pretty confident in:

We believe that the biggest priority right now is addressing jungler dominance, with junglers able to gank more often, and more successfully, than appropriate. Bot lane’s particularly targeted by those ganks and we think that’s a significant part of current frustration with marksman agency/power.

-> We’ll need to reduce jungler power beyond just the XP tweaking in 7.1. Not sure how exactly yet (working on that this week and next).

Courage of the Colossus is still too strong. That contributes to some characters feeling unkillable for marksmen. Some of those champs are also too strong in general as well (hi Poppy).

-> We’ll be nerfing Courage of the Colossus. Investigating right now whether that’ll be nerfs to the best case scenarios primarily or more general nerfs.

At least a couple of individual marksmen need buffs. Lucian’s the biggest example by a large margin, having been hit really hard by the pre-season changes.

-> We’ve got Lucian and Draven buffs in 7.1 and are assessing other candidates for 7.2 or 7.3 (e.g. potentially Ashe).

We’d like to support non Marksmen as options bot lane if the gameplay created is healthy. We’ve long felt it would be good for the game for a variety of lane setups to be viable and the farming position bot lane’s been a particularly static one. Right now Ziggs is the only non marksman getting played there a meaningful amount (around the same play rate as Corki and Tristana). So far his impact on the lane seems reasonable, with a range of ways to respond to it and an appropriate power level.

-> We’ll be keeping a really close eye on Ziggs bot lane. Assuming it stays healthy and interesting it’s something we’d want to support if it looks like a viable thing.

We want marksmen to be excellent choices bot lane. We’d like to see other classes there at least a bit, but don’t want to see them push marksman out or overshadow them at their core strengths. If they’re not really effective picks bot lane that’s something we’ll address quickly.

Some other things we’re looking at:

General power level and agency of all positions in the game, bot in particular (both marksman and support).
Whether marksmen power curves are appropriately tuned (e.g. Should we offer more mid game power rather than late game power for some champs/builds?)
Whether we’re offering the appropriate tools to kill really tanky champs as a marksmen, something that should generally be a strength relative to other classes.
What sort of changes we might need to make to the item system to reduce tanky champions from getting too much damage or some damaging champions from getting too tanky to deal with for their damage.

Hope that offers some useful insight. More details, on this topic and a range of others, to follow soon (gotta catch up on that communication quiet period from over the break).

Meddler

456 Comments

RivuoJan 5, 201731 votes

I definitly agree jungler dominance is a huge problem to me as an adc main

it seems like the jungler can come bot 100 times with no punishment in levels or gold.

Theres just too much influence from other lanes

RiotMeddlerJan 5, 201740 votes

Yep. XP is probably the biggest culprit at present, given how powerful an edge a level or two can be in a gank, both in terms of raw stats and access to an extra spell (ult's particularly). We're seeing some champions who when they jungle are consistently at least a level higher than they were prior to the jungle changes after the first few minutes of the game. That's a pretty significant increase in power that's going to come at the expense of other positions.

Mid and top influence on bot might also be too high, that's something we're looking at at present to. First step though's to address the jungle situation.

LongHair FoxJan 5, 201778 votes

Please do not nerf teleport again. Top lane already feels like an island and nerfing that again would just make it even more so. How about making top lane as a whole more exciting? I dare say that part of the reason bot get ganked so much is because there are 2 kills compared to one in other lanes, there is the dragon, and the tower is easier to take because you have a marksman in the lane and the tower is already weaker pre 7 minutes.

EtoilleJan 5, 20178 votes

[{quoted}](name=LongHair Fox,realm=EUW,application-id=A7LBtoKc,discussion-id=2QqErugJ,comment-id=000100000005,timestamp=2017-01-05T22:47:53.958+0000)

Please do not nerf teleport again. Top lane already feels like an island and nerfing that again would just make it even more so. How about making top lane as a whole more exciting? I dare say that part of the reason bot get ganked so much is because there are 2 kills compared to one in other lanes, there is the dragon, and the tower is easier to take because you have a marksman in the lane and the tower is already weaker pre 7 minutes.

Not sure why this was down voted - I think this is pretty insightful. Riot - what about an experiment where Baron and Dragon's spawn points are swapped? This would take the jungler's main focus early game up top effectively balancing map 2-1-2 instead of 1-1-3. Or at least it might. And then it would require less mechanical balancing since it's not a mechanical issue it's a time/opportunity cost issue. Just a thought.

MøtJan 5, 20177 votes

The reason the duo lane goes bot is because dragon is there, at least historically. Moving dragon top lane would more than likely just have your duo lane at the top of the map and have your solo laner switched to the bottom.

EtoilleJan 5, 20175 votes

{quoted}

The reason the duo lane goes bot is because dragon is there, at least historically. Moving dragon top lane would more than likely just have your duo lane at the top of the map and have your solo laner switched to the bottom.

Didn't think of that - probably a good observation.

Ahzek AhrimanJan 6, 201724 votes

People would just rotate botlaners into toplane then.

Votable JesterJan 6, 20176 votes

At least the top laner (then bot) would have the potential objective of a weak tower.

I'd also be curious as to how much of an effect that would have on the win-rates of the two sides...

LittleBeazleJan 7, 20172 votes

All of the outer towers have the same stats. This would literally change nothing other than the lane that the marksman would go to.

Sir PoodleJan 7, 201710 votes

Not true. The bottom outer tower has less protection compared to other towers before 7 minutes. Afterwards, yes, it's the same.

SkiasJan 6, 20175 votes

[{quoted}](name=LongHair Fox,realm=EUW,application-id=A7LBtoKc,discussion-id=2QqErugJ,comment-id=000100000005,timestamp=2017-01-05T22:47:53.958+0000)

Please do not nerf teleport again. Top lane already feels like an island and nerfing that again would just make it even more so. How about making top lane as a whole more exciting? I dare say that part of the reason bot get ganked so much is because there are 2 kills compared to one in other lanes, there is the dragon, and the tower is easier to take because you have a marksman in the lane and the tower is already weaker pre 7 minutes.

There is far far too much incentive for everyone on the map to trash bot lane. Every other choice when deciding to roam isnt worth it compared to crushing bot. Not to mention, coming back from a 4 man gank bot is nearly impossible if its successful.

CPT CAPSLOKJan 5, 201712 votes

Maybe increase exp share ? so that supps and adc arent that underleveled

XonraJan 6, 20175 votes

This is actually not a terrible idea if it worked properly. Mid and top are almost always a level up on the adc, and even with the jungle clearing fast with high xp, the jungler is usually only that far up on bot (yet another reason for the priority on bot lane.).

The problem is Riot just crapped all over both with the snwobally early dragons, paper thin tower, first blood tower gold, on top of bot lane being behind every other lane in xp. The fast xp for junglers just pushed it over the edge.

PandaCodeRedJan 5, 20172 votes

Mid and top influence on bot might also be too high, that's something we're looking at at present to.

Can you please do something about top's influence on bot lane. It is super easy for an ad or a support to get a ward in a bush behind you in bot lane, basically forcing you to play passively if the top lane has tp up. And top isn't often punished very hard for a 4 man gank bot, as worse case scenario they force drag and the other laners tp.

The best thing to do would nerf tp or buff ignite to make top laners have to choose between tp and ignite. We have had top lane TP meta for multiple seasons now and it is getting pretty stale as bot lane.

XonraJan 6, 201715 votes

If you can't move in the 4 second it takes tp to actually go off, that is less a problem with tp pressure, and more a "paying attention" issue. I mean they even changed it to let you see the tp animation in the bush even without vision.

GudmenJan 5, 201715 votes

I just want to point out that in the current cycle of the PBE shyvana is getting a nerf to her clearing speed (taking away the +20% monster dmg on W). With talks of nerfing the XP in the jg I just want to make sure you guys are fully aware that theres an overlapping nerf here because I don't want my favorite champ falling to the wayside again so soon after getting buffed.

Dingo SlimJan 6, 20175 votes

Those are overlapping but won't be overkill. The 20% monster dmg nerf is because of her strength compared to other junglers, the xp nerf is in comparison to the lanes. They're just trying to tune her clear speed to match other junglers as right now it's bonkers

Pud85Jan 6, 201723 votes

In my opinion, currently one of the main arguments for today's jungler's's to consistently hit bot, or for a mid or top to TP\hit bot, is the fact that its worth 2 kills, plus that side of the map has a drake. Now I don't know too much about balance changing or what not but I feel currently a jungler's decision on which side of the map he/she should hit should not come so easy. There should be a real incentive to spend resources top to have your team gain a REAL global net worth. Right now top side has rift herald, this objective even when it was considered remotely good always paled in comparison to certain drakes, and it only ever applied to one team member. That's why I feel that objective should be changed in someway, i don't really care or mind if you would like to change its appearance, name, or whatever but what the said monster gives has to give a TEAM a net worth. So I personally propose that in exchange for one team stacking drakes down bot on one side of the map, the other should have a decision to go top for something like well oh idk how bout some gold? An old concept from a few seasons ago that worked beautifully. Killing said new top monster would give a certain amount of global gold for the team while a smart jungler bot would often trade that with an infernal,cloud,mountain,ocean down bot. obviously some balancing would need to be done to make this work that goes over my head but the idea is what should be considered.

tl;dr Give junglers an incentive to gank top side by replacing the old rift herald with a new neutral monster that gives global gold to the entire team, alleviating repeated pressure bot side and only bot side.

WeatheredJan 5, 201714 votes

PLEASE address jungle champions like Elise Nidalee when taking a look at jungle. They are physically painful to play.

SlythionJan 5, 20179 votes

not sure why you were downvoted, nidalee can't even be called an actual jungler at this point

XonraJan 6, 20176 votes

At this point, good. She was dominating and annoying when she was strong. Just because Lee Sin is allowed to stay on top because Riot refuses to nerf him, doesn't mean Nid needed to stay there as well. I don't like her being in the dumpster, so maybe the "good" comment was unneeded, but she was a must pick in pro for example for quite a while, pushing out other junglers flat out.

SqkergJan 6, 20174 votes

News flash: it's never "good" that a champ is nonexisteently weak.

XonraJan 7, 20175 votes

No, but it is nice to see them gone for a LITTLE bit (like right now), when they full on push over a dozen other champs out of the role completely. At that point, you need a break from the role, which she has gotten. I'm perfectly fine with that. She is getting buffs, and sadly she will be back just in time to bore me to death watching her constantly in the LCS again.

RiotMeddlerJan 5, 201718 votes

Nid we'll be buffing in 7.2. Junglers in general may be too strong, she's definitely not though.

We don't have any current plans for Elise changes.

Mikiu28Jan 6, 20179 votes

Wait wait what about Kindred they need some love.. ;(

ZrechkonJan 18, 20175 votes

yeah- they've fallen off the side of the planet

MotherMangoJan 5, 201712 votes

Please try to consider the weaker Jungler's during these tweaks. I really like the idea of nerfing the stronger Jungler's, but hopefully that doesn't end up leaving already weak champions in an ever worse spot than they are now.

TheGr8WhiteDJan 5, 201718 votes

This post completely ignored the problem the changes to the jungle have made. Its not even the extra gold. Its the combination of two main things; Raptor Camp, and Jungle respawn time. If you create larger amounts of time where you literally cannot farm the jungle, YOU FORCE THEM to gank or counterjungle. Every single jungle streamer agrees the raptor camp is fucking insane. The overwhelming majority of junglers right now have to buy tiamat just because of it (and to a smaller extent Krugs).

The entire role is basically dictated by being a jungler who can A) Do enough AOE to deal with the Raptor Camp, which cuts the viable champions signifigantly. B) Do good single target damage, as blue and red buff are now only single target, so aoe champs are less effective against it. And C) Be able to gank early. You cant afk farm the jungle earlier as i said, so champions like Master Yi feel like hot garbage trying to gank pre6.

Also, the changes to masteries are problematic. Champions like Olaf who are tanks without hard CC cannot take COTC, forcing them to pick thunderlords or fervor. Other tanks such as Garen face this same problem. If your a tank who cant tank courage, youre not performing that well most likely (even though Olaf is relatively decent at the moment due to the influx of control mages who rely on cc to peel). Taking out SOTA only furthers this issue, as champions like Nidalee basically required the mastery to function.

CPT CAPSLOKJan 5, 20179 votes

I think it sounds pretty reasonable that junglers are a big reason why adcs feel so weak and

What sort of changes we might need to make to the item system to reduce tanky champions from getting too much damage or some damaging champions from getting too tanky to deal with for their damage.

this sounds like they got the problem with tanks. I dont think they are too tanky they just have to much damage for how much CC they also have. Also individual buffs makes sense because the strong ADC are acually pretty strong (Cait, Vayne, ...). I pretty much agree on all of these.

SëkkiJan 6, 20178 votes

hey adc is actually fun man. I mean what other lane is 2 v 4? Maybe even 4 v 4 if your team follows.

Ars ArcánumJan 5, 20177 votes

I read that lethality buffs are planned for the near future. Is that still the case and do you have any context?

RiotMeddlerJan 5, 201718 votes

We'll probably be buffing a couple of items with Lethality on them (Duskblade and Edge of Night). Other sources of Lethality (Ghostblade especially) seem to be performing fine though.

MysticDreams12Jan 5, 20175 votes

Why would you buff Duskblade, honestly? So Zed and others can just delete us squishy champions even quicker?!

Mister FisheyJan 5, 20174 votes

Zed has a 48% win-rate lol.

MysticDreams12Jan 6, 20177 votes

I don't care. He deserves to be in the dirt.

TerrainJan 6, 20174 votes

Zed deserves nerfs less than any other mid laner. He is already in a horrible state and is even worse due to tank meta + courage. I dont think he needs a buff as much as most other non-adc champions deserve a nerf.

MysticDreams12Jan 6, 20173 votes

To me he deserves to be nerfed and in the dumpster. I hate that motherfucking stupid ass champion.

MazgrukaJan 6, 20176 votes

You sound like someone who's either very new to the game, or someone who's super low elo. Zed's pretty easy to deal with once you learn how to...

Sexy Jack RabbitJan 6, 20177 votes

It's not so much that Zed isn't easy to deal with, even professionals have confirmed that Zed is a massive pain.
He's a massive lane bully with an amazing early and mid game, but an awful late game. He's not easy to manage once he becomes fed.

It's not so much that he is ever easy to deal with, it's just that since the rework he has had significantly more counterplay then in the past, as well as being in the most balanced state he's ever been in. Currently his itemization is somewhat weak, but that's because Lethality items are somewhat garbage.
Zed has always been item dependent.

The only difference between Zed and other AD Assassins, is that they either have a steep enough skill curve (like Talon and Shaco) that allows them their kits to be inherently stronger then Zeds naturally. Or have kits that don't have as much dependence on items like Kha'Zix and Rengar, that also mean they don't have to do insane dukes in order to do well.

AgentJan 6, 20175 votes

ghostblade is the worst it has ever been and not really worth buying right now on most champions. it lost atk speed, armor pen (it doesnt even have more lethality than it had armor pen before like the other items it just changed from instant to half scaling) and all it gained was 20 movementspeed out of combat.

EyesOfTheFoxJan 7, 20175 votes

Anyway we can get item 3155 to build into other options besides item 3156 ?

Perhaps a item 3155 + item 3134 = :D

item 3155 + item 3086 = :D

Or perhaps an item in the vein of Hexdrinker but with ATK SPD + ARMOR? Just throwing things at the wall...

CritkeeperJan 5, 20177 votes

{quoted} Some other things we’re looking at:

General power level and agency of all positions in the game, bot in particular (both marksman and support). Meddler

I don't think you can give everyone more agency. I believe its pretty intuitive that agency is actually a conserved quantity, what you give to someone here you must take from someone there.

RiotMeddlerJan 5, 201718 votes

Agreed, hence that bullet point's about looking at agency for every position, not about trying to increase it for everyone. If both bot positions are low on agency for example that implies at least one other position is too high.

CritkeeperJan 5, 201721 votes

{quoted}

Agreed, hence that bullet point's about looking at agency for every position, not about trying to increase it for everyone. If both bot positions are low on agency for example that implies at least one other position is too high.

It could be that marksmen items just aren't "coming online" soon enough.

The plain matter of fact is there is a lot more shields and healing going on everywhere, so armor has become incredibly valuable.

By the time marksmen get a lifesteal item and two crit items the most burly targets just don't care, and can withstand consistent auto attacks for a very long time.

It seems to me that the marksmen items are what is lacking, not the marksmen themselves. Specifically, there isn't any reasonable way to threaten a tank with physical damage by mid game, so people have figured out that taking an spammy ap carry bot lane like ryze or cassio or ziggs will do more damage, even if the enemy builds nothing but magic resist and health.

Right now last whisper's derivatives are tweaked to be most effective when the enemy stacks truly absurd levels of armor, like 300-400. The issue is that it doesn't do much against shield spam on someone with a moderate level of bonus armor and fairly good base armor, say like 160 ish armor at mid game.

If they have 60 base armor and 100 bonus armor, last whisper is 45 pen, while black cleaver would provide 48 and if it were magic resist instead, void staff would provide 56. On top of that, mages can easily spec both void staff and flat pen, and they stack in the best possible way.

I realize that if a person COULD have enough magic resist to shrug off mages it leaves the mages feeling bad because they can't really do anything against that target. But by your own admission, marksmen should ideally be better at melting burly targets than anyone else.

Thats a problem with the itemization, not the individual champions. In my opinion, marksmen items need to be less focused on raw damage and more focused on agnostic damage all around. Similar to how all the major assassin items grant 20 out of combat movement speed, all the marksmen items should grant "+X whatever" where "whatever" is something that makes the marksmen's damage a little more agnostic.

---- EDIT

I'd like to point out that a while back it was said that crit is supposed to be the "class bound" marksmen stat. In that case, crit should serve the primary function that marksmen are designed for. In other words, critical strikes should be about ignoring a ton of resistances, not doing double damage. I'm just throwing some ideas around though.

Really if you take anything away from this, take away that its not marksmen, its marksmen items that needs changing.

TreyhovaJan 6, 20172 votes

A big offender of generally worthless marksmen items is item 3153 . In itself, its an ok item, but it doesn't have any synergy with the other attack speed items, making it mostly worthless.

PB4UAMEJan 7, 20171 votes

more attack speed = more procs? How is that not synergistic? Also LDR increases the physical on hit of BoTRK as well.

RollerdinoJan 7, 20175 votes

The point he's trying to make here (or so I think) is that all other AS items have crit, whereas BotRK doesn't. This is why they don't synergise well, as you want as much crit as possible on most ADs.

WisdomOfTheFooLJan 5, 20177 votes

why's every comment being downvoted in this topic?

VamprahJan 5, 20175 votes

Give ALL Marksmen: +5 base dmg

SpeedyJan 5, 201728 votes

what the hell, that is an absolutely broken proposal. Giving all Marksmen that much of a buff makes them way more obnoxious lategame while basically only nerfing meelee supports in the botlane. It doesn't even come close to solving their problems with item builds or their power curve.