Quick Gameplay Thoughts: February 21

RiotMeddler·2/21/2018, 4:32:45 PM·1 votes·78,696 views

Hey all,

Usual Disclaimers

These posts will often contain talk about future work we're doing, or planning to do, that isn't yet guaranteed to ship. The nature of the work could change or, depending on what we discover, projects mentioned may get put delayed or even stopped. If you'd like to see a Tweet whenever a new one of these posts goes up: https://twitter.com/RiotMeddler

http://ddragon.leagueoflegends.com/cdn/6.24.1/img/champion/Ziggs.png

New Keystone As previously mentioned we’ve been working on a new keystone to flesh out the Rune system more. It should be on the PBE sometime this week, though will probably be in 8.6, not 8.5. It's intended to offer a combination of sustained damage and target agnosticism (so good at killing tankier enemies) and at present it looks like this:

  • Triggers the same way Grasp of the Undying does (first auto attack on an enemy champion after being in combat for 4s).
  • When triggered gives AD and cause some of your physical/magic damage to be dealt as true damage instead.
  • Is found in the Precision tree.
  • Fairly short CD.

Things that still need to be answered:

  • How to ensure it's not too powerful, or only useable when balanced on ranged champions. We're testing a couple of different approaches here, with buff duration extends when really near (~300 units) an enemy champion and buff duration extends on melee auto attack.
  • Whether to gate when the true damage conversion turns on, or at what rate the conversion happens. We've been trying mechanics like 'Build X AD and Y HP' to activate the conversion, or a scaling ratio on the conversion based off your AD/HP.
  • Whether Precision is the correct tree. We'd previously been trying this in Resolve, on the grounds that it was intended to pair well with long fight times and required being close to the enemy (proximity extension version meant putting yourself in more dangerous spots). That meant there was a lot of synergy with what Resolve offers. That worked ok, and offered really clear distinction between it and other Keystones. Did end up feeling like it blurred the definition of Resolve quite a bit (what do I go there for?). Likely it stays in Precision as a result, unless its functionality changes meaningfully.
  • Whether a True Damage conversion is the way to go here. Dual % Pen would give the same gameplay in almost all circumstances (your damage is stronger against Armor/MR stacking enemies). Using True Damage does make it much clearer what's going on, to both user and target. It also comes with a much stronger emotional reaction, both positive and negative, even if the power's balanced at the same point as the pen would it ('True damage is really powerful, nice' versus 'True Damage is stupid, there's no way to place around this Keystone').

Midseason's Size

Midseason's like to be smaller this year than the last couple of Midseason's have been. The amount of change in the Preseason just been was higher than past Preseasons. As a result we're putting more time into Preseason follow up (balance, game pacing, bug fixing, fleshing out Runes gradually etc), rather than working on new projects as much. Still planning some changes to open up Bot lane champion choice more, fairly likely that's the only major set of gameplay changes though in it (which is probably 8.9).

Mastery Curves

Mastery Curves are a thing we consider often when looking at designing new champions or working on existing ones. A Mastery Curve is a representation of how much more effective a player becomes on a champion as they play them more. They look like this:

https://imgur.com/a/fIu3o

Mastery Curves are different to how a champion's performance changes by MMR. Aurelion Sol for example does better on average at higher tiers, but even high tier players need a lot of games to climb his mastery curve and reach that performance level. In terms of goals, we think it's important champions have some steepness to their mastery curves. Putting time into a champion should feel rewarding whether you're a new player, or about to break into Challenger. You should be able to clearly notice how you're getting better at them, both during your first few games and when you're many games in,. If a champion has a really flat curve they can sometimes end up feeling pretty unsatisfying to play.

Volibear's an example of a champion who suffers from that somewhat. That's not to say that there isn't skill to getting better at Volibear, but the skills Volibear tests aren't unique enough to Volibear himself. You're generally getting better at LoL with things like positioning, map awareness, general game knowledge etc, but no growing in your usage of Volibear’s specific abilities as much. Those general skills translate to other champions you play so on average your performance on a champion like Volibear won't be much higher than your performance on other champs, even if you've played a lot of him. Someone like Singed by contrast, who has a really unusual playstyle, has a really steep mastery curve. There's a lot of unique stuff to learn to play Singed well, those skills often don't translate to other champs though.

Steeper isn't always better though on mastery curves. While a player should get significantly better as they play a champ we don't want them to start out completely unable to do anything in their initial games. They shouldn't start at 100% effectiveness, but 0% isn't right either. (Launch Azir being an example of a mastery curve that was too punishing in the first few games.)

389 Comments

Rebounded2/21/2018, 4:36:46 PM26 votes

Good read, any news on the Leblanc changes and if they will be on the PBE soon?

RenanRein2/21/2018, 4:37:02 PM25 votes

Hi Meddler, can you talk about Diana ?

You guys had talked about giving her a mini update like Xin's, and she has been hurted a lot by items changes from the last years (Abyssal becoming a tank item, Banshee becoming a mage item and now we gonna have some more changes to AP itemization and none seems to help her niche of AP fighter focused on basic attack)

InTheory2/21/2018, 4:36:44 PM18 votes

Hi Meddler!

Recently, there were discussions about making a new sub board here to differentiate gameplay related topics. It is about giving some room to players that really want to go into discussion about stuff like champion gameplay, in-game mechanics like crit or grievous wounds or other stuff like own created systems like runes.

Currently, it is near impossible to find such a room for discussion without drowning in the masses of venting posts, the masses of rant threads and the masses of discussions that pretend to be valid while just being there to blame Riot and pretend to have THE ANSWER for every issue in the game. League of Legends is a very complex game and most posts that are created and up-voted in the gameplay sub-board are there to give easy answers for the way to complicated issue. Pseudo solutions that hurray themselves and degrade Live Gameplay at the same time. There are way too many threads that are made out of frustration and anger or just to farm up-votes, while discussions that are well thought, exotic and include lots of work are completely ignored.

And on top of all that the communication culture there is just so toxic that you can’t go there without ruining your day – even if you’re just passionate about the game and the things you think about. People tell you that you aint know nothing, that they’re master and challenger players that know everything and degrade everybody else to be dumb and worthless. Players that spam the boards with contradictory phrases and poison what boards were originally created: Giving passionate players a room to talk about League of Legends.

This new sub board would need to be exclusively distinguished from the current vent-and-rant-gameplay and require lots of moderation. By lots of moderation I mean you’d literally have to restrict the access to that subboard behind a wall of moderators that activate a post only after making sure it hits these goals otherwise we’d risk to just have a second gameplay sub board with the same problems it has for years now. Everything else can still be moved to the gameplay boards whatsoever.

I ask you, I beg you to give this a chance and support your Heralds and Co in such a goal if they’d be ok doing so. Because I don’t see a future for gameplay related discussions here on boards, which is sad if you think about that this is Riot’s own official discussion website.

Sincerely InTheory

zippyHD2/21/2018, 4:39:06 PM18 votes

Hello Meddler Just wanted to ask you if LeBlanc is going to be on PBE today?(8.5 cycle). Hope you will answer, would be much appreciated.

ModKnightsKemplar2/21/2018, 4:42:00 PM10 votes

I like hearing about the "back-end" of game development in these posts. Really sheds some light on how your team thinks, and I'll be keeping the mastery curve thing in mind with your future balance decisions. I would love to see more mastery curves for more champs, and more often. Since you mentioned Singed, I would have loved to see his curve :P

Yadid2/21/2018, 4:58:47 PM10 votes

With the death of another Catalyst Item, there are only two left in the game. Any chance battlemages will get another AP item besides RoA? Taking GLP from Sol in particular is devastating due to his recent use of Glacial Augment to shore up some of his bad matchups. Taking GLP away removed Glacial Augment, the only good rune path aside from Phase Rush from his optimal playstyle, leaving him in the same place as pre-runes reforged - pigeonholed to one playstyle.

Jake th3 Cake2/22/2018, 3:35:48 PM10 votes

Dear Meddler. What do you think about fizz atm and are you planning to do anything about him? in my opinion, (and the opinion of most fizz players, just check the subreddit haha). Fizz is in a pretty weak spot. I can see why you wouldn't want to buff him since his playstyle is frustrating for newer players (get one-shot kiddo etc.) but what I personally feel and I know many others as well is that he feels clunkier and worse to play post update/rework. especially his seastone trident (W) feels worse because having an assassin wait 2full seconds for an ability and front loading all his kit into that isn't fun :/. are you thinking about what a revert could do or is it completely out of the picture?. Sincerely Fizz mains [sg-soraka]

BarbaJhini2/21/2018, 6:02:12 PM7 votes

Thoughts on Jhin after the buffs, (imo it was better to give him more utility and potential to win lane harder by making it that Q apply mark for W and or return the slow taken from his ulti) and Lucian, they also struggle as they are not good vs tanks, any comment or ocnsideration would be appreciated.

Jar Jar binks l2/21/2018, 4:56:01 PM6 votes

Don't give true dmg, dual pen is way better choice.

Solari Fortune2/21/2018, 4:55:28 PM5 votes

Any thoughts on the Crit System itself? Is Riot happy with how it is? Would Riot want to change how crit chance works at some point in the future?

LostFr0st2/21/2018, 5:57:11 PM5 votes

Any thoughts on "offscreen creep" that has been occurring in recent champ releases? Offscreen stuff often lacks adequate counterplay (other than cd) and am interested in if it's on the radar or not considered a cause for concern.

Seeing Kai'Sa's reveal (and her targeted dash after hitting someone from offscreen with a pretty fast skillshot) is what prompted this question btw. However, looking back on the past couple years worth of releases it has been appearing in most kits.

Triumphant Glory2/21/2018, 6:03:19 PM5 votes

Any work or change for Garen ? What you guys think of him?

Lárxene2/22/2018, 5:29:47 PM4 votes

Bone Plating is actually the most cancerous thing you've added to the game since release Bramble Vest.

Spideraxe2/21/2018, 4:40:56 PM4 votes

Hey Meddler can I ask if you guys feel this will be a Fervor replacement and if it might compete too much with other sustain damage based keystones like Lethal Tempo. Also you mentioned possibly chatting about Marksman, is that for Friday

Carnicore2/21/2018, 4:43:43 PM4 votes

What champions are supposed to be the main users of this keystone?

PeachyBubbleStar2/21/2018, 4:44:59 PM4 votes

Will Kai'Sa be on the PBE Soon? and or with some changes and skins possibly? Also are the Newest Zoe changes (the ones posted on twitter) going to be on PBE soon as well?

TheGreyBotanist2/21/2018, 4:58:26 PM4 votes

Does 'bot lane champion choice' mean work on marksmen and the items, or will it be to open it up to other types of champions?

If the latter, will work on dominant marksmen and their items be sooner, or will that be packaged with it?

Gondall2/21/2018, 5:01:56 PM4 votes

Hey Meddler!

Happy to finally hear some more about the new Keystone. Some thoughts:

Will putting this Keystone in precision affect who wants to take it? Seems like precision opens it up to the likes of Corki/Varus who scale off of AD and would love the conversion of mixed damage to true damage. At the same time, champions like Darius, Yorick, etc won’t necessarily want the bonus attack speed from precision, but would be great users of this Keystone. I like the gating ideas with AD/HP or melee range being required, but I feel like the move to Precision still feels bad for the bruiser champs that are supposed to be helped by this Keystone.

I’m terms of muddling Resolve’s identity, I don’t feel like that’s a problem. You go resolve if you want to survive. Survive lane with Grasp, survive poke with Guardian, survive engages with Aftershock. With the addition of the fourth Keystone, it seems to sit pretty solidly on “survive team fights”. While currently you “survive” the fight by doing more damage, it provides a neat “survival” strategy of kill-or-be-killed while still giving you some of the tankiness of the tree. This could be further reinforced with the AD/HP conversion as a gate, which moves the Keystone further from a Precision identity and more solidly into Resolve.

DeathBurst2/21/2018, 5:31:43 PM4 votes

Re: the new Keystone.

I can't help but feel worried. Things is, most Fighters are fine with getting some HP, and most of the signature Fighter Items give AD+HP. On the other hand, they generally don't want AS. Putting this new Keystone in Precision means that Fighters will have to:

  • either go for Precision + Domination and be really squishy in early game
  • or go for Precision + Resolve and miss out on a lot of offensive early power (no raw AD, making it harder to CS, and worse scaling for their abilities with AD ratio, plus the Domination Runes are much more early game oriented than Precision)

In any case, I feel like Fighters will still be under-served by the Rune System.

waiting for WoW2/21/2018, 4:36:11 PM4 votes

Does Riot plan on working on other keystones that are rarely seen and/or used like Phase Rush now that you've introduced the new bruiser keystone?

Akali Best Waifu2/21/2018, 4:50:27 PM3 votes

Hi meddler, question about the new keystone. Will it be adaptive or just give AD when its triggered? Also you talked about a shield busting item being made some months ago is that still on the radar for coming out or has the idea been scratched for now?

LostFr0st2/21/2018, 4:55:58 PM3 votes

Whether Precision is the correct tree. We'd previously been trying this in Resolve, on the grounds that it was intended to pair well with long fight times and required being close to the enemy (proximity extension version meant putting yourself in more dangerous spots). That meant there was a lot of synergy with what Resolve offers. That worked ok, and offered really clear distinction between it and other Keystones. Did end up feeling like it blurred the definition of Resolve quite a bit (what do I go there for?). Likely it stays in Precision as a result, unless its functionality changes meaningfully.

Why not the domination tree? Seems like the champs who'd want this want flat AD already to go for targets (hunt), while precision is for attspd folk and Resolve primary mainly for tanks.

Splitting stats for precision/resolve was a good move, but this new keystone doesn't seem to fit either of those trees :/

Spideraxe2/21/2018, 4:43:35 PM2 votes

Also you mentioned possibly doing another blog post on temp champ models a while back, any update