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Quick Gameplay Thoughts: April 4

RiotMeddler·4/4/2017, 5:06:59 PM·1 votes·74,549 views

Morning all!

Exciting day today, we finally get to put our latest champions onto the PBE and have you folks see them in action. More on them from the champion team to come very shortly, thoughts from me on some other stuff below.

Twisted Treeline

Nothing guaranteed yet, but we'll be trying to get a bit of work on TT in during the 7.8 cycle if possible. We prioritize SR balance over TT work, given mid-season's coming up quickly though there's less value in hitting balance on some champs that are going to be meaningfully affected the patch after anyway. Possible we might have some time to hit some stuff on TT as a result.

Ivern

Speaking of treelines we'll be taking a pass at Ivern in 7.8. Love the dude, but he's a bit too good at some things which makes it tough for enemies to interact with him/his team. Things we're testing include:

  • Slightly longer passive application channel duration
  • Created brushes not hidding epic monsters within them (too much objective control power, though you can still create a wall of brush blocking them off of course and hide vision of them that way)
  • Shorter cast range on created brush (it's 1600 at present, which is a bit nuts)
  • Higher E CD (whoops, typo'd this the first time)

Mid-Season Approaching

Couple of weeks now until mid-season stuff hits PBE. I'm not certain on exact timelines but we'll be talking at least slightly before that about the changes, what our goals are etc. Some of the crit changes we were hoping to ship didn't work out alas, so we'll have some changes to other AD items but not those. Will certainly take the time to talk through what we were going for, why we concluded we shouldn't ship the changes and whether we might go back to them at some point though.

Stretch goal for 7.8: Heimer

No details yet on possible changes and there probably won't be anything on PBE for a little bit at least, we're hoping we'll be able to put a bit of time into Heimer though.

Shen

We've got some changes for Shen in testing that we think we'll be shipping some for of in the next patch. Goal there's to reduce the discrepancy in effectiveness between organized play on really low latency environments and regular play, reduce situations where Shen's strong in one context while ok or even weak in the other. As a result we'll be looking at things like:

  • Ult shield strength scaling with the allied target's missing health, lower base health values. Organized play tends to use offensive ults on really healthy allies a lot more, regular play more defensive clutch saves.
  • Increased E width. The difference in reliability between very low and normal latency circumstances looks to be too high and we think that width's part of the reason. Current width also creates some situations where it looks like it hit but didn't, so this potentially of double value as a change.
  • Removing bonus damage to non champions on the Q. Organized play gets a lot more value from wave pushing power throughout the game. Hitting this looks like a good place to remove power from that context as a result, potentially allowing it to be reinvested elsewhere.

Whoops, forgot something. We've also got ARAM changes coming in 7.8

ARAM's intended to be a notably faster game mode than SR, some (not all) games can really stall out though. We've got some ARAM changes on the way as a result aimed to improving those stalled out games, with changes to stuff like super minion stats, slightly more cannon minions, slightly faster spawning waves etc. Those should be hitting PBE today too, feedback on them much appreciated!

262 Comments

Otherworldz4/4/2017, 5:11:29 PM13 votes

But what about jungle shen?

Shen is already struggling in the jungle.. this Q change will pigeon hole him into a top laner only.

HalcyonDweller4/4/2017, 5:09:48 PM12 votes

Redemption item 3107 + Locket item 3190 seem to dominate support builds, is this on RIOT's radar or do you think the problem lies somewhere else?

EDIT: If it is on your radar, what sorts of ideas are you considering to address it?

Martian Spartan4/4/2017, 6:10:18 PM12 votes

rip the 15 Shen players out there

XxRinkyDinkyxX4/4/2017, 6:09:01 PM12 votes

Can we please not nerf shen's Q... really necessary.

Sad Tyrant4/4/2017, 8:50:07 PM11 votes

So when is Shen's 2nd Rework

Ishin Denshin4/4/2017, 8:15:52 PM10 votes

Hi Meddler, I really like these posts that you do here. You mentioned some upcoming Ivern nerfs which are great to hear. Does the balance team have any plans to nerf other very strong junglers such as Lee Sin and Graves? I know Graves is getting the magic resist removed from his quickdraw passive but that won't change the fact that he can clear the entire jungle without smite or potions and remain relatively healthy. Proof: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NcMuH7v9gyc . I find it a bit ridiculous that this still has not been addressed. When using smite, Graves has one of the fastest clears of the game and easily outfarms, and outdamages most other junglers.

Also, Lee Sin has never not been meta since his release 6 years ago. Not only is he fun to play but he is very strong even for novices. Part of this is because he has a very healthy and quick clear, good ganks, and is the highest mobility jungler in the game. He also has 350 base movespeed. No hypermobile champion also has extremely high base movespeed except for Lee Sin. This movespeed when combined with his amazing kit, allows him to make plays and rotations arguably better than any other jungle champion in the game.

I know Lee is an iconic League champion and is a favorite of players of all elos, And I'm only Diamond 5 and by no means am I an an expert of League balance but I believe it would allow for so much more jungle health and diversity if Graves, Lee Sin, and Ivern were taken down a notch. They are just way too good at what they do. Thank you for taking the time to read this and please keep up the great posts.

Malicious Metal4/4/2017, 6:30:40 PM9 votes

You do realize that change to Shen's Q will almost definitely kill Jungle shen?

U Just Got Slain4/4/2017, 5:11:56 PM9 votes

Hey Meddler! Not a big Shen player here, but I know whenever I pick him up the bonus damage on his Q is really good for last hitting when Shen gets shoved in. Since he has no wave clear it is pretty easy to just push him into tower. Nerfing the bonus damage to non-champions will take away that extra safety net, so do you plan on making it an intended weakness of Shen to nerf his already low wave clear power early game (since sunfire helps a lot mid-late) and allow him to struggle under tower?

Drunk Tsundere4/4/2017, 5:12:43 PM9 votes

Did I catch you say "Champions" plural?

0_0

Kraysis4/4/2017, 9:57:02 PM7 votes

Please don't get rid of Shen's bonus Q damage on monsters I don't want to see jungle shen die for no reason PLEASE

KiII YsOeUlRf4/4/2017, 11:00:00 PM7 votes

Shen is borderline dead now. First the base stats, then the q and passive nerfs, now more q and ult nerfs. I understand that you want shen to have a distinct weakness being his waveclear and early game, but now he probably can't even last hit. Galio is basically a better version of shen now, being he has a strong early game, good waveclear, much easier multi-taunt, more cc, more protection, and a shen ult with a giant malphite strapped to his back with its only downside being its range is half the map instead of the entire map.

Queš4/4/2017, 6:42:21 PM6 votes

Any thoughts on Yorick Mori? He struggles late game with that giant CD on R and how easy for ADC to kill it/lifesteal from it.

P.S. Yes,Yorick players do exist.

Arakadia4/4/2017, 5:43:30 PM6 votes

It's my birthday!

InSingedWeTrust4/4/2017, 5:48:05 PM6 votes

Can we few but mighty Heimerdinger mains get some kind of response here?

https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/HHYaum9R-its-been-880-days-since-heimerdinger-last-received-a-direct-balance-change

**EDIT : Holy shit, nevermind. Was my post actually noticed? **

Are you open to suggestions on Heimerdinger? If so, visit my post. Or we can chat here. :D

WalterTM4/4/2017, 6:02:39 PM6 votes

Hello Meddler!

I have some questions about Udyr Udyr, which have been baffling me for a long time.

With the upcoming buffs in mind: don't you think the champion himself is a bit outdated, both kit and appearance wise, and is in need for at least a smaller scale rework and a V.U. (e.g.: Shen scale)? He was not mentioned yet as a "soon to be" reworked champion, altough he seriously needs some love. What do you think about Spirit Guard Udyr? It is indeed a nicely designed skin, but nowdays most of the legendary skins simply outscale it and most of the community thinks that SGU shoud have been his V.U. in the first place.

I really hope you can give at least one or two words about the spirit walker's state, thank you in advance!

Comrad Black4/4/2017, 7:32:20 PM6 votes

The Shen changes are....interesting? 250k xp low elo Shen player here.

  • I think the ult change is great, or at least sensitive to usage differences.
  • I don't think E width is a huge issue, although maybe I'm wrong. With a lot of experience on Shen I rarely miss a well positioned dash at 50-70 ping. I'm just a little worried it's arbitrarily lowering skill floor.
  • The Q changes are atrocious. Aside from killing jungle Shen, it just seems like the continued attrition of his strengths. It is a really, really big nerf - if it goes through he gets a borderline unplayable early game in exchange for.... what? A mid game where he can't contribute anything aside from maybe turning around 1-2 fights if your team mates are competent enough for your ult to matter? A late game where he's borderline irrelevant because his base stats are so cripplingly bad, he's at a huge gold disadvantage by default?
  • I'm really disappointed changes to his W aren't being looked at. It's a really awkward skill that fluctuates wildly in terms of value, and is hard to use well, especially if your team has no idea what it does. It's a really big area for improving the stability and usability of his kit - I would much rather see his W be make simpler/easier/more usable than his dash be made semi-arbitrarily easier.

So in short:

  • If that Q nerf goes through you better be prepared to give him like +600 health @ 18 and actual ap ratios, ideally at the same time so he's not crippled for several weeks again.
  • Please, please look at his W. Like its interaction with his passive means it can actually hurt your survivability vs AD casters. Not only that, but if you were able to scale literally any part of it other than the cooldown, you'd be able to break Shen away from the very specific itemization he currently uses in competitive and open up a lot more build paths. Narrowing down his itemization further and further with stuff like that Q change (so he literally has to buy 1 of 2 items just to functionally cs) can only hurt the stability of his balancing in the long term.
Piltover Customs4/4/2017, 8:27:44 PM6 votes

{quoted}

Stretch goal for 7.8: Heimer

No details yet on possible changes and there probably won't be anything on PBE for a little bit at least, we're hoping we'll be able to put a bit of time into Heimer though.

Whoops, forgot something. We've also got ARAM changes coming in 7.8

ARAM's intended to be a notably faster game mode than SR, some (not all) games can really stall out though. We've got some ARAM changes on the way as a result aimed to improving those stalled out games, with changes to stuff like super minion stats, slightly more cannon minions, slightly faster spawning waves etc. Those should be hitting PBE today too, feedback on them much appreciated!

In regards to Heimerdinger (as a Heimerdinger enthusiast) what are we looking at? Possible gamestyle changes or just better gameplay? IE His turrets could do with some coding updates (I mentioned this a long time ago in a quality of life post about Heimerdinger). Since I doubt there any many Heimerdinger enthusiasts with-in Riot, will there be reach-outs to the mains in the playerbase to get ideas of what can be done?

Heimerdinger is a very tough one to work with unless you rework him again so I do hope that any changes are well thought-out and don't break him.

As for ARAM, same thing goes (6k~ aram games....), while it was intended from Riot persceptive (i've played it when it was only a custom game) to be faster a lot of us then played it so that 1) We didn't have to care about who got what positions/champions and 2) we could relax and have fun with off-builds or whatever.

Are you also getting the bug fix for blue side minion spawns not walking out between the turrets and instead around the top? (IE Their pathing looks like it's going around a minion stuck in the center that invisible.

iahim984/4/2017, 8:23:49 PM5 votes

Meddler about nerfing ivern, have you guys considered removing the second buff when ivern or an ally kills a buff, I know it was made so ivern can give buffs to others, but a team having an extra blue and red seems like an unintended strength , it can simply be changed in the buff just droping and have the person who wants it to channel for a second (where do we even see those animations anymore)

PeepingPeafowl4/4/2017, 9:30:27 PM5 votes

"Shen - Removing bonus damage to non champions on the Q. Organized play gets a lot more value from wave pushing power throughout the game. Hitting this looks like a good place to remove power from that context as a result, potentially allowing it to be reinvested elsewhere."

Rest in peace jungle Shen, you were really bad, but you will be missed.

Sahn Uzal4/4/2017, 5:21:32 PM5 votes

Oh shit, I was really looking Forward to those Crit item changes D: Is there a chance Trinity Force will be one of those ''other AD items''?

BowMaster9304/5/2017, 7:50:59 AM5 votes

One of the few Shen players here I think, and I was wondering if possible power could be adjusted into a quality of life fix for Shen. One of the main issues I've had with him since his rework is his complete inability to re-position his dagger as needed most of the time, especially if he's behind in a lane. What I'm really wondering here, is would there be a way to implement a small mechanic that let Shen re-position his dagger under some circumstance? Maybe he can only do it when he is at full energy and is standing on the area of it. Then he can throw it a very short distance (maybe 600-700?). This would be really beneficial towards letting him line up better uses of Q for trades and help if he really botches a Q use too. It doesn't even have to apply his passive, do damage, or even CC to me. Just the ability to re-position is a nice quality to have.

And while we're on it, can we streamline a bit of how "dodge" works? It seems that Shen W doesn't block some AA effects that are blocked by other dodges (namely Jax). One key instance is versus Xin Zhao, as the 3rd AA in his Q still performs the knock-up on Shen, but is doesn't effect Jax. Thanks for a little bit of bug fixing there Riot!

Jelapi4/4/2017, 9:15:45 PM4 votes

Oh well, looks like playing Shen in the jungle will be even more painful early on... Increasing the cooldown on his ult is also a bit harsh, I mean the cd was already huge, but the scaling on missing HP is great.

SoundChaosDebug4/4/2017, 5:18:23 PM4 votes

If you're gonna do some ivern changes in twisted treeline does this mean you'll look into the account selling level bots that plague twisted treeline in lower ELO/MMR ?

cocacolalips4/5/2017, 4:48:15 AM4 votes

**ARAM PBE FEEDBACK ** (if no other discussion is made)

I'm worried those changes may affect the balance of the game, making it even more difficult that it is at the moment for melee champions and mediocre team compositions to ever come back from the early loss of an inhibitor.

Currently most games progress as follow:

  • 1st phase - early game (0 -> 10 minutes): ranged & poke champions dominate, take the first turrets quickly followed by the destruction of the inhibitor.
  • 2nd phase - mid game (10 -> 20 minutes): melee bruisers & tanks defend as well as they can, try to survive and hold the incoming minions waves with the help of the 2 nexus turrets.
  • 3rd phase - late game (20 minutes +): melee bruisers and tanks finally push back and multiple teamfights occur until one team wins the game.

** Problems **

  • The changes to the minions and the super minions may result in **games snowballing faster **to the point that the 2nd and 3rd phases may not happen at all or happen less often than they currently do.

  • Decreasing the overall duration of the games is fine, but the pathing at which a game progresses and the different phases should scale about the same (1/3rd each).

  • Melee team compositions need gold and experience (thus time) to hopefully turn the game around. Unless further changes are made to gold and experience income, minions and super minions will prove to be too overwhelming too early for those teams to come back.

Possible Solutions

  • Increase minions and super minions damage armor resistance and spawn rate gradually over time, to prevent teams from getting run over by those super minions 5 minutes into the game
  • Increase minions and supper minions damage armor resistance and spawn rate following some timespans, for example doubling all their stats every 10 minutes, matching the different phases
  • add an enrage timer, similar to the timespan but much later, to force games to end quickly past a certain point.

Additional Notes

  • On another note, mages are the main champion archetypes responsible for stalling games indefinitely, their wave clear is very good, it can prove to be very hard to push into teams with multiple mages when no minion is around. If you want to increase minions and super minions effectiveness, you are going to want to increase their magic resistance or health or something to make it so mages can't instantly clear minions waves any longer.
Jackom14/4/2017, 8:49:27 PM4 votes

Regarding Shen, is there any chance you may go as far as giving a definite, albeit large, range to his ult (like galio, pantheon or sion, so to speak)? It would generally cut him out of bot lane in the early game, but then you could very well add some strength to the rest of the kit. I'm not saying that you should do that, but I'm asking if it's a possibility. And possibly, how would you feel about such a change?

Wh4t4/4/2017, 5:42:48 PM4 votes

What will be the patch for MSI?

Poluact4/4/2017, 9:14:01 PM4 votes

This Shen Q nerf is gonna hit jungle Shen which is already not in the best spot.