Skip to content

Not being able to criticize Riot on here

DarkinPrime··5 votes·4,051 views

The idea that you cant say anything that can be construed as disrespectful is absurd.

I don't respect some of the Riot designers. I dont think their work is good. Just like everyone likes and dislikes different artists or musicians. Its nothing personal.

To come on here, and tell us, the customers, the people who play the game, and people playing the game is the reason Riot makes A LOT of money, that we can't actually say what we think is asinine beyond all logic and reason.

Riot wants to shield themselves from hard criticism....and that makes people do is want to hate them more, because it looks cowardly. OH, I'm sorry, can I not say that something looks cowardly? That's how it looks. They dont even read these boards because they either dont respect the players and care what they think, or because they are too thin skinned to face criticism head on.

And many of us believe some champion deisgners do poor work. Or the work doesn't suit he game or ruins the game. But we can't say that. Awesome. Shame on all of you who downvote me, and shame on the moderators who enforce such childish bullshit board rules.

53 Comments

rujitra19 votes

Criticism does not have to be disrespectful.

Something that is disrespectful is not necessarily critical.

You're free to criticize Riot on the boards, and in fact many players do so daily and I don't see their threads deleted.

I'll also point out that saying the blanket statement "X does bad work" is not valid criticism. For one, you are providing no explanation or evidence. For two, decisions at Riot are not made by one person. You are attempting to scapegoat one person for the decisions of many. That is not only disrespectful but it is misleading and rude.

DarkinPrime3 votes

{quoted}

Criticism does not have to be disrespectful.

Something that is disrespectful is not necessarily critical.

You're free to criticize Riot on the boards, and in fact many players do so daily and I don't see their threads deleted.

I'll also point out that saying the blanket statement "X does bad work" is not valid criticism. For one, you are providing no explanation or evidence. For two, decisions at Riot are not made by one person. You are attempting to scapegoat one person for the decisions of many. That is not only disrespectful but it is misleading and rude.

Haha yeah, so if I explain WHY certain champs are bad for the game that will change ANYTHING? NO, I will get shit on by the mains and fanboys. Lets live in reality, kid.

GatekeeperTDS3 votes

You can certainly talk about why you think a certain champion is bad for the game. What's not constructive is, "X person always designs shit champs. X person should be fired. Rito sucks and won't fire them."

DarkinPrime1 votes

{quoted}

You can certainly talk about why you think a certain champion is bad for the game. What's not constructive is, "X person always designs shit champs. X person should be fired. Rito sucks and won't fire them."

Whether you think its constructive or not is opinion. If 70% of everyone posting on the boards kept saying x employee should be fired, and then he gets fired, that would be constructive. Something happened that people feel is an improvement.

You simply saying that is not constructive is just meaningless words. It doesn't mean anything.

GatekeeperTDS3 votes

Whether you think its constructive or not is opinion.

Bro, I wasn't saying what I think is important. You know, I was going to quote the board rules, but it's not even worth the time. You're posting looking for arguments and I'm not taking the bait.

DarkinPrime1 votes

{quoted}

Bro, I wasn't saying what I think is important. You know, I was going to quote the board rules, but it's not even worth the time. You're posting looking for arguments and I'm not taking the bait.

The board rules are also opinions. Just because they say it doesnt make it so. Its completely subjective to say that this or that is non constructive.

ModThe Djinn2 votes

{quoted}

The board rules are also opinions. Just because they say it doesnt make it so. Its completely subjective to say that this or that is non constructive.

Regardless of your opinion on whether or not it is constructive, the fact is that calling for people to be fired is also not allowed, and that will not be changing. When we were more lenient with this sort of stuff in the past it lead to a marked increase in the boards being unpleasant and full of insulting call-out threads, and we're not doing that again.

DarkinPrime1 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Djinn,realm=NA,application-id=6heBIhQc,discussion-id=kK1XEFpe,comment-id=0000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-05-12T18:35:42.217+0000)

Regardless of your opinion on whether or not it is constructive, the fact is that calling for people to be fired is also not allowed, and that will not be changing. When we were more lenient with this sort of stuff in the past it lead to a marked increase in the boards being unpleasant and full of insulting call-out threads, and we're not doing that again.

And instead you have people who just use different wording but everyone knows what they really mean. You are okay with it being more subtle as long as the "wrong" words arent being used.

This is childish

ChaosReyn1 votes

Preface, this is not my opinion, but it's come up a lot in the past couple weeks...

"CertainlyT's champions are frustrating and unfun to play against, and it feels as if he thinks that these frustrations are good and more challenging for the game. It's unhealthy to literally design a champion meant to frustrate and annoy the player base when facing them in game."

That's all constructive. That's all reasonable. I'm not getting into this argument, because I don't care about it like that, but the argument itself is honestly not "wrong."

Where it crosses the line, no matter who agrees with you, is when you arbitrarily make a statement that they should be fired for your beliefs.

He's doing his job. Arguably, people may or may not think he's doing a bad job...but he's not doing anything wrong, technically, and calling for someone's termination from your opinion and bias is not at all constructive or respectful.

First of all, if you want a job done right, do it yourself. I don't see you designing any champions, writing any game code, or any of that. If you're such an expert that you can call for his firing that cleanly, why not simply show him up and take his job? Right...you're not an actual expert in the field.

Second, if you don't like the performance or how something is done, you work to resolve the problem. The problem is not the man. The problem is the design and the player frustration.

Now...speaking of player frustration, I'll throw out my own unpopular opinion: this game is the MOBA equivalent of fucking Call of Duty. People come off consistently in all games at any elo as elitist, and in low elo, these "elites" give up and start a flame war at the literal first sign of ANYTHING going wrong. In mid-to-high elos, there's been an increasing number of hard inting trolls that quite literally never intended to play to win. And to top all of that off, the system punishes anyone who gets fed up with this environment almost more than they punish the cause of the frustration, especially in the cases of hard-inting trolls who stay out of chat and report those who protest their antics. Then to put the icing on the cake, everyone comes HERE whenever they have a problem with anything, as if us or the (volunteer!) mods can just go pull a Red aside whenever we feel like it and whisper sweet nothings in their ear until they let them off the hook. How many jumps in logic does it take to get to that point? Or is it more like someone just jumped off the logic train in general?

What needs to happen before we start calling for people to be fired is to work on all the DOZENS of reasons this community has been going to hell on the rift.

On another note...you know why they disabled finishers right? That happened because of a post on these boards regarding photosensitive epilepsy. Riot changed everything for a player-base minority, I don't think it's exactly fair to say they don't give a shit. It's more fair to say they don't give a shit about garbage complaints about trifles.

DarkinPrime1 votes

"First of all, if you want a job done right, do it yourself. I don't see you designing any champions, writing any game code, or any of that."

You have no idea what kinds of projects and apps I have in development right now.

If I can eventually end Riots success, I will. Its my long term goal actually.

ChaosReyn1 votes

Then why waste time screaming about it? If your goal is to outclass them, why spend all the time trash talking?

DarkinPrime1 votes

Because I like to play games.

The reason so many trash companies make money is because gamers, because they love gaming so much they are willing to put up with trash companies and inferior products.

This is the reason bad companies keep doing well.

ChaosReyn1 votes

You're confusing gamers with addicts.

Gamers who play inferior games note that they're inferior, stop playing, and find a different game. Gamers who make this conclusion and keep playing it are either bandwagoning with others in saying that the game is inferior when they truthfully feel it's not (they're lying)...or they think it's genuinely a good game "if not for [insert reasons here]" (typical denial of addiction)

So let me rephrase: If you're trash talking the game, specifically the elements made by CT, are you riding on the bandwagon of CT haters while actually enjoying the game, or are you simply that adamant that without CT the game would be better?

DarkinPrime1 votes

I am not confusing anything.

The game would be better without CT.

Sometimes I enjoy the game. Often times I don't.

Sometimes it seems like a good game, sometimes I am reminded how unbalanced the game is and how Riot plays favortism with certain champions.

EvilDustMan1 votes

{quoted}

Whether you think its constructive or not is opinion. If 70% of everyone posting on the boards kept saying x employee should be fired, and then he gets fired, that would be constructive. Something happened that people feel is an improvement.

You simply saying that is not constructive is just meaningless words. It doesn't mean anything.

Let's say you have a bunch of passengers who don't know anything about a plane. A bunch say they are mechanics and engineers and think one designer in the entire group of designers should be fired. They've never been to a meeting, they don't know how the design work functions, they don't even have any proof that this single designer is responsible for the changes they hate.

No, it would be silly.

DarkinPrime1 votes

{quoted}

Let's say you have a bunch of passengers who don't know anything about a plane. A bunch say they are mechanics and engineers and think one designer in the entire group of designers should be fired. They've never been to a meeting, they don't know how the design work functions, they don't even have any proof that this single designer is responsible for the changes they hate.

No, it would be silly.

Unless the plane keeps having issues, getting grounded, making emergency landings all the while passengers are being unfairly booted and mistreated. I think they would be well within grounds to call for someone to get fired

rujitra1 votes

This is like you calling for the Norwegian/Southwest airlines pilot/mechanic to get fired for an issue that wasn't their fault and they had no control over.

DarkinPrime1 votes

{quoted}

This is like you calling for the Norwegian/Southwest airlines pilot/mechanic to get fired for an issue that wasn't their fault and they had no control over.

Uh not its not. I am calling out CertainlyT. He does have control over it. Thats why they care called CertainlyTs champions, not "collective team" champion.

rujitra4 votes

Maybe you get "shit on" because your logic or facts are incorrect?

DarkinPrime2 votes

{quoted}

Maybe you get "shit on" because your logic or facts are incorrect?

Maybe. But I think I see things properly. I get shit on because I'm a bad player. Which of course is like shitting on the air craft mechanic by the pilot because hes not good at flying.

Unfortunately, most people on here just attack me for my match history. They are too small minded and petty to engage the topic.

Ya know, now that I say that, maybe Riot is right to hate their player base.

rujitra3 votes

If you see people commenting on you when you're trying to discuss not you, please ask the moderators for help. If you feel the moderators are missing things, including if others have a pattern of harassing you, please go talk to them in the discord - they want to help.

LordGeovanni1 votes

You dont need logic to be wrong to be shit on by fanboys of champs.

ChaosReyn1 votes

Those are the mains and fanboys. Not RIOT or mods.

I get it though: I hate voicing my opinions of certain champions (Yasuo...Riven...VAYNE...) and having their mains come out of the woodwork and dumpster me just as much as the next guy.

But you can't have an opinion and then tell every other opinion to sod off. If they're being actually disrespectful, it's one thing. If they're voicing their disagreement, it's not always just to trash you.

That being said, the next person to tell me Vayne is a fair and balanced champion right now had better not tell me that I only think that is because I'm silver, or I swear I'm gonna lose it.

ModThe Djinn7 votes

The idea that you cant say anything that can be construed as disrespectful is absurd.

Agreed. That's why this isn't the case: a number of things on the board could be taken as being disrespectful, and are still up. We do, however, stamp down on this that are actually disrespectful and non-constructive. "You suck" is both disrespectful and non-constructive. "I dislike your work because of X, Y, and Z, and I'd suggest you focus more on making sure your work does A, B, and C instead" is respectful and constructive.

Heck, I'd even be okay with "Designer X's designs cause problems for the game. Here's why, and here's how to take steps to improve that."

DalekZec1 votes

Let me guess: certainlyt champions really piss you off?

Yeah i can relate to your frustration in general anyway.

DarkinPrime1 votes

{quoted}

Let me guess: certainlyt champions really piss you off?

Yeah i can relate to your frustration in general anyway.

Yes

DalekZec1 votes

{quoted}

Yes

I thought so. No other designer is nerve triggering other than him anyway.

Apparently a different version of the statement "fire certainlyt" has to be used in order to be accepted by boards rules.

Example: I do not think CertainlyT is fit for a PvP game.

Literally an innocent version of "the guy is shit, fire him already".

rujitra3 votes

I highly doubt that would be acceptable either.

What you seem to not understand is that Riot does not operate in a vacuum. One person does not design a whole champion and then that champion gets put in the game.

Champions are designed as teams, then a completely separate team tests it internally, changes can be made, repeat that a few times, and then it gets put on PBE and then live.

Attempting to scapegoat one person for something is not constructive and is factually incorrect.

DalekZec2 votes

{quoted}

I highly doubt that would be acceptable either.

What you seem to not understand is that Riot does not operate in a vacuum. One person does not design a whole champion and then that champion gets put in the game.

Champions are designed as teams, then a completely separate team tests it internally, changes can be made, repeat that a few times, and then it gets put on PBE and then live.

Attempting to scapegoat one person for something is not constructive and is factually incorrect.

No amount of constructive bullshit will make the statement "fire X" any less harsh. The truth is not always great. I don't care if it's against the rules or what you call it disrespectful, but being honest is respectful enough. At least I'm not wishing death or cancer or hell or whatever. People get fired from jobs and go on and seek another one. CT it no different, and it's only a matter if it's deserved, which he does deserve.

And why is it called "CertainlyT champions" rather than "ct team champs"??? Because he's the one who makes the unhealthy and toxic mechanics of the champion's kit. Nobody is gonna put the blame on the lore or art team. Those guys are not to blame for toxic champs.

Since champions are designed by teams, then apparently ct is designing the mechanics ALONE, otherwise half the shit he add here wouldn't have seen the light of day, and that's what makes me doubt there are even teams. And if that's the case then these teams are all "Yes people" With not a single "no".

rujitra2 votes

It's not the truth though.

It'd be like me saying "I think the cashier should be fired from WalMart because he refused to sell me cigarettes when I gave him my ID". But in reality, it was him and the manager and the general manager of the store that refused, and they were all just following state law and walmart policy.

You are saying he deserves something when you are not in a position to make that determination. Period. You do not have anywhere near the amount of information you'd need to determine that.

You are pinning things on CT that are not his fault. Period. You can scream that all you want, but it just makes you look like an idiot since you assume you know everything.

LordGeovanni2 votes

no thats more like the shelf worker should be fired from walmart because everything is 30ft above the ground where no body can reach anything.

what you are talking about is something that is in the right but is seen as wrong by an outsider versus some one doing something that is actually wrong and bad for the health of the business but it getting to slide past because hes the favorite employee. the balance team are also those shelf workers but only 10% of the shelves are even stocked because they allow all these broken shit past their desk into live

rujitra2 votes

But you just said it - you're an outsider - how do you know what they're even doing, much less whether it's "wrong and bad"?

LordGeovanni1 votes

by this logic everyone in the world knows exactly one thing the thing they work in if you dont work in that sector how dare you talk about or try to critique it. Next election dont even try to vote because unless you are running you cant know what goes into running various parts of the government and who has the better plan.

rujitra2 votes

Except... In an election, you're being told exactly what the plans are, how they'll work, etc.

An employee of a company isn't an election. You don't get a say. And they aren't going to start revealing their inner workings to you just so you can bitch at how much you disagree with them. You aren't some special person who knows everything. If Riot wants help with their internal workings, they'll hire a consultant.

You know, someone who does this professionally instead of types a bunch about things they admit they don't know about.

LordGeovanni1 votes

Riot themselves make their own statements of what they want to happen and everyone of CT's champions among others contridict those statements.

DarkinPrime1 votes

{quoted}

It's not the truth though.

It'd be like me saying "I think the cashier should be fired from WalMart because he refused to sell me cigarettes when I gave him my ID". But in reality, it was him and the manager and the general manager of the store that refused, and they were all just following state law and walmart policy.

You are saying he deserves something when you are not in a position to make that determination. Period. You do not have anywhere near the amount of information you'd need to determine that.

You are pinning things on CT that are not his fault. Period. You can scream that all you want, but it just makes you look like an idiot since you assume you know everything.

If a cashier doesnt know how to do his job properly or refused to do it he needs to be retrained, reprimanded or fired. The rest of his chain of command is not also at at fault other than they didnt train him properly, but most likely, hes incompetent or doesnt care. Hence, being fired

rujitra2 votes

How do you know the cashier was not just following the policies set by their company?

You are not in a position to determine that. You can state your opinion as to the service. That does not translate to you knowing whether the person should be fired

DarkinPrime1 votes

{quoted}

How do you know the cashier was not just following the policies set by their company?

You are not in a position to determine that. You can state your opinion as to the service. That does not translate to you knowing whether the person should be fired

His job is to ring up items. There is no way his job would include randomly not selling an item to someone who was a valid purchaser. There is no way that his boss would tell him to do that or it was company policy. Your example sucks.

rujitra3 votes

Except there's many reasons that the cashier may be told to not sell an item.

If the register pops up and refuses the sale, for whatever reason, the cashier can't override that. As an example, some locales have limits on the quantity of items that can be purchased. There may be a recall on an item. The items may have been defective or deemed illegal to sell in the locales.

There's many reasons it may happen. You refusing to believe or accept that does not change the fact that you obviously are in no place to make that call since you assume you're always right.

DarkinPrime1 votes

{quoted}

Except there's many reasons that the cashier may be told to not sell an item.

If the register pops up and refuses the sale, for whatever reason, the cashier can't override that. As an example, some locales have limits on the quantity of items that can be purchased. There may be a recall on an item. The items may have been defective or deemed illegal to sell in the locales.

There's many reasons it may happen. You refusing to believe or accept that does not change the fact that you obviously are in no place to make that call since you assume you're always right.

Haha wow. You just wont accept the fact that your analogy was shit.

You dont need to be in the know to know what someone isnt doing their job.

For example, you dont know to know anything about law enforcement to know that watching a cop kick a suspect in the head while the suspect is handcuffed is wrong.

And I dont need to know anything about Riot or game design to know that certain champions stack tilt and are not fun to play against, very binary or feast or famine and that the game would be better off without those types of champions

rujitra3 votes

No, you don't. You are free to have your opinions as to a champion's status.

However, and this is really important, not everyone agrees with you, period. Riot has said, and the community agrees, that the vast majority of his designs are actually generally fun. That doesn't mean you're going to have fun playing against them when you aren't trying, or if you're getting countered - that's not the design. That also doesn't mean that everyone has fun playing as them or with them on their team.

Keep in mind that CT was lead designer of the base champion or led the reworks for:

  • Darius
  • Thresh
  • Yasuo
  • Kalista
  • Zoe
  • Warwick
  • Mordekaiser
  • Graves
  • Caitlin
  • Akali

as well as being on the "team" of "lead" designers (i.e. they all shared) for Zyra and Zed.

Now, how many of those have truly been "toxic" champions. Yasuo, most people can agree, tends to be one that is considered "toxic". But, why hasn't Riot reworked him yet then? Because while you may not like Yasuo, more of the community likes him than dislikes him. You can't just claim "because I don't like it, it's bad". You are not the only person in the world.

Of the other champions, show me a single one that has been considered "toxic" by a respectable portion of the community? Not overtuned - many champions, even those not designed by CT, have been overtuned at release or shortly thereafter (or after a big patch). CT doesn't control the ratios - he designs the kit, and the ratios and exact effects of it generally come from either a team-wide effort or specifically from the people who deal with game balance.

Show me one. Zoe, maybe, but once people learned how to play against her (and once her tuning was in line), she isn't hardly considered "toxic" at all. And in fact, his reworks have generally been seen as some of the best in the game - at least in the circles I'm seeing from around the internet - Caitlin, Graves, and Warwick being examples.

So no, just because you have the opinion that you don't like any of his champions does not mean he is doing a bad job. Just because you are suffering from confirmation bias where you only see things that agree with you does not mean he is doing a bad job.

And with that, I will cease this discussion with you, as if you truly will not accept that you have confirmation bias it is clear that you do not wish to actually have valid discussion.

DarkinPrime1 votes

"more of the community likes him than dislikes him"

Completely irrelevant when it comes to balancing a game or game theory in general

rujitra3 votes

"More Apple customers like their overpriced, mediocre, and non-innovative products than dislike them". Completely irrelevant when it comes to designing a phone, right?

This is completely absurd. Products are built for the customers. If more customers want A to be done/built/sold/whatever than B, then the company is going to do A. Period.

Riot isn't designing the next chess, checkers, soccer, etc. They're making a product, that they are selling. "game theory" only comes into play when you're discussing the MOBA genre as a whole really.

ChaosReyn1 votes

For the record...that analogy really isn't shit either.

"Under federal law, if you have any reason to believe that an ID is not valid, or that the person attempting to purchase cigarettes or alcohol is buying them for an individual who doesn't have a valid ID or meet the age requirements, refuse the sale. Under company policy, if you are in doubt, refuse the sale."

That was one of the first things they'll ever teach you when you work anywhere that sells either of those items. Be it WalMart, a gas station, or the liquor store itself.

The guy's doing his job, and he's not violating any policies. Albeit, I'm sure a lot of people are in agreeance that he's not doing a good job, and that his champions are all seemingly designed to annoy the enemy team however possible, that's an opinion, and not a violation of any policies or ToS.

Calling for the termination is a double-edged sword: if they're actually found guilty of violations, they will likely be terminated. If not...you're in violation for defamation. Turns out, calling for people to be fired is a pretty serious matter.

DarkinPrime1 votes

Haha really? You are writing essays to prove that your analogy is good? I have never even heard of anyone refusing the sale when someone produces a valid ID. If the sale is refused the person needs to get their eyes checked or check their judgement because it sucks.

YOU....are amazing. You just cant accept your analogy was bad. It grates on your ego so much. How sad that you put this much more effort into this.

ModUlanopo4 votes

I don't care if it's against the rules or what you call it disrespectful, but being honest is respectful enough.

That simply isn't true. Please see the Three Gates of Speech.

https://i.imgur.com/dOiP0nu.jpg[/img]

Pika Fox1 votes

Truth is he is by far their best designer who has consistently made the best and most engaging and loved champion kits and designs. Why would they fire their greatest employee because some random who doesnt know anything said to?

DalekZec1 votes

[deleted]

Pika Fox1 votes

Wont change the fact that he is their de facto best designer, by a wide margin.

DalekZec1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Pika Fox,realm=NA,application-id=6heBIhQc,discussion-id=kK1XEFpe,comment-id=00020000000000000000000300000000,timestamp=2019-05-15T23:26:56.154+0000)

Wont change the fact that he is their de facto best designer, by a wide margin.

He can go Akali Aery.

More from Discuss the Boards

More by DarkinPrime