Can we talk LP gains and losses?

XinZhao2WinNhao·Aug 7, 2019·11 votes·7,426 views

In above average elo (gold and above), the LP gains are bad compared to the losses (I get +37 per win, idk how much I lose for 8th place because it always takes me down to 0 lp, but I know it's more than 60 since I was at 60 lp last time I got 8th, and I lose about 50 for 7th place).

The queue times I get are about 5 seconds per game in ranked. Sometimes, there are silver and even once a bronze in my game. I am plat 4.

I really don't mind waiting a full minute for players of my rank so that I get fairer LP gains and losses and gain the same amount for a win as I lose for a 8th. I don't think there are so few plat players that this is impossible, this isn't challenger.

I know I'm currently on a lose streak, but my LP gains have nothing to do with this. When I was solidly climbing from silver to plat and only place in the bottom four at like 20% of my games, I had the same terrible LP gains and had to win/top4 double the amount of games I lose/bottom4 in order to climb.

There's the adage that 40% of games are won just because of good rng and 40% are lost because of bad rng, and 20% is determined by your skills. if you can convert more than half of the 20% into a win, you will climb, and if you can't, you will drop. But unfortunately with these LP gains, you can't climb if you only make top 4 let's say 55% of the time.

Also, LP gains and losses should keep in mind that the difference in skill between an Iron 4 and a Silver 4 is different from the skill difference between a Gold 4 and Diamond 4.

Both the Gold 4 and Diamond 4 are probably working on the same meta builds and therefore RNG is a very big factor so a diamond may lose to a gold sometimes, whereas in Iron 4 there's no such thing as meta builds and people just hyperroll to get the 3 star Darius, Khazix and Elise even if they have no synergy while in Silver 4 there might not be a meta but there are synergies in play and some econing and the Silver will almost always beat the Iron.

10 Comments

LuggAug 7, 20192 votes

My win rate at one point this season was over 65% and I was only getting 4 more more LP for a win than what I got for a loss. This made me climb so slow. I should have skipped several tiers this year, but haven't had that happen yet.

SukishooAug 9, 20192 votes

Unless you had most wins at first place and then a few were lower you didn't have a 65% because anything under 1st place is actually counted as a loss even if you gain LP. It's why top chally players have a 30% winrate.

LuggAug 21, 20191 votes

If you have a 50% win rate, you will climb. If it's below 30%, you fall. That's the way it's set up and it's just common sense. Show me ANY challenger player with a 30% winrate.

SukishooAug 21, 20191 votes

In the regular game but again in TFT all games where you don't place first are counted as a loss by the ladder.

You still climb but you have way less visible wins. The top players have 64, 118, 96, 60, ect wins with over 200-300 losses. Most players in the game also have a down arrow displayed next to their name showing they've actually fallen a massive amount in their respective elo. So it's very different way of adding up the winrate vs where on SR you win, you win. You lose, you lose. Here in TFT true wins are still only looked at as First place by the ladder. So you could have 60+ winrate if you calculate all the 2nd-4th places you've had too but the client and websites will show otherwise.

I myself only have 13 first places and I'm in Plat and that is what is displayed on my profile in the client as actual wins. So it makes my winrate appear abysmal at 6% (https://lolchess.gg/profile/na/sukishoo)

Current Top Challenger has a 29% https://lolchess.gg/profile/na/boodolman Challenger player with 28% winrate https://lolchess.gg/profile/na/dogdogdog Another Challenger at 23% https://lolchess.gg/profile/na/deliciousmilkgg

It just goes on.

PolkaDotPimpAug 7, 20191 votes

PREACH

twidledidleAug 7, 20191 votes

TFT Ranked DansGame

SheNeverDidAug 9, 20191 votes

I agree. It seems like if you win more than you lose, you should climb. Maybe not quickly, but steadily. Right now, that's not happening, especially when it's hard to play a single game at any level without encountering someone using an exploit, a smurf account, or someone who just got lucky with an early silver Draven and three staatik shivs.

The smurfs really bother me. When they have a name like "xXBootySlayer69XxTFTXx" and are still in placements, it's pretty obvious that they created a new account after learning to play the game on their main so that they could smash through the ranks more easily. They might be playing at Diamond level, but I'm still only gaining 17LP for coming in second because the system reads them as a n00b.

I know there's not much Riot can do about that, but it's still irritating. Poor sportsmanship, IMHO.

XinZhao2WinNhaoAug 9, 20191 votes

People don't smurf intentionally to pick on new players though.

Most people smurf in TFT because their main acc has trouble climbing due to -80 LP per loss and only +40 per win.

Honestly, if it's not fixed soon, I'm probably creating a smurf account too because I'm not going to risk demoting because my LP gains are unfair. Trying to climb in Plat+ is just demoralizing.

GamodAug 9, 20191 votes

This is the worste part of league of legends... it is like of they are afraid to push people up, they keep people locked in a div or league because this LP system locks it there.. so if you are progressing well during a certain period of time you are punished because the previous periods were not so successful which leads to frustrating moments of having to deal with low LP... So if you cannot play a few games a day you are in disadvantage against someone who spends 12h daily in the game... Because you won't be able to climb with just low gains of LP or it will take you like 4x more Time... Riot shouldn't be afraid to push players when they perform well... What's the fear? I really don't get the logic of this variable LP system linked to a MMR or number of games or win ratios... It should be if you win you get X if you lose you get Z points... Like i said +80points for first place, -60 for last place and 40 for second, 20 for third and 5-10 to 4th

XinZhao2WinNhaoAug 9, 20191 votes

So if you cannot play a few games a day you are in disadvantage against someone who spends 12h daily in the game

I spend 12h daily playing TFT and my LP gains are just as bad. Right now I top 4 in about 50% of my games but my LP is going down rather than staying where it is because of the ratio of gain/loss is unfair.

it is like of they are afraid to push people up

This, I think the system is trying to get more people into Bronze and Silver and less people in Gold+. The majority of gold+ players I know are losing more LP than they gain for equivalent places (1st and 8th, 2nd and 7th, etc). Someone can defend this by saying that the majority of people aren't where they're supposed to be because you can be 8th place at 1 lp and then go to 0, but that ignores the fact that you can be 5th place and supposed to lose -5 but end up losing 25 because you demote to 75 LP rather than the 95 that you would have.

There's also nothing wrong with having more people in Plat+. If TFT's Plat tier has 40% of players in it, then yeah I can kinda understand making LP gains lower so that Plat is a bit more challenging to get, but it's about 5% of players right now, same as SR. There's nothing wrong with 5% of players being Plat, it doesn't need to become more exclusive. That's what we have Masters and Challenger for. The top tiers (besides Challenger, which should be an actual challenge to achieve) don't have to be exponentially smaller than the other tiers like they are right now (Diamond 4 is top 0.5% of players). I think it's funny when people say "Don't take my word for this balance suggestion, I'm low elo - Diamond 4" or "anyone can become diamond if they want to" when it's literally the top 0.5% of players. What other kind of ranked system is there out there that treats the top 0.5% as low elo?

On a tangent, Riot only balances their SR game around Plat+, which is only 5% of players. This sort of sends a message that the game experience of 95% of the playerbase doesn't matter, tbh. That's why there are still many champs that are automatic noobstompers that are almost permabanned in bronze elo that haven't been nerfed even though bronze is 25% of the playerbase while plat is 5%. I don't know if this is the case with TFT as well.