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Please show all the chat logs of everyone in the ban feedback

XinZhao2WinNhao··16 votes·1,113 views

First of all, I'm not banned. It just came to my attention after reading a few threads posted by people who's actually been banned. They always ask "is my ban justified" and the thing is, from the chat logs they post, I don't think many people can tell, because there's no context.

But I think that there's a very big difference between having a toxic Teemo using racist slurs against the Heim, and the Heim saying "report Teemo pls" and having Teemo just be bad at the game and Heim saying "report Teemo pls".

Someone who says "report Renekton for no skins" as a friendly joke in the early game is different from the whole team complaining about how skins are a sign of skills and seeing Renekton without a skin makes them believe that he has less skills.

Also, certain phrases can be used as both a joke and an insult and its purpose depends on the context. For example if someone said "lol thanks" after getting a kill, and you say "lol stay bronze bro" it's probably a joke. Meanwhile if there is a player on the team trying their best and still not doing very well, and you tell them to "stay bronze bro" it's an insult.

Clarification: I don't encourage being toxic in response to toxicity. I just believe that it's a mitigating circumstance that should result in a lower punishment based on context. There should still be a punishment or at least a warning for 1st offenses. I also believe that no matter what the case is, showing everyone's chat logs will either do nothing to the current case or help make a better judgment, but never hurt. I'm not saying "make it ok to respond to toxicity with more toxicity."

34 Comments

SmokedAlmonds3 votes

I have been reading and responding to threads like that for years. Only a handful are ambiguous. It isn't uncommon for some statements in a given chat log to be ambiguous, but the logs as a whole almost never are.

When people are talking about context they are almost always just spitting out excuses. Seeing the other people's chat logs is just a distraction that feeds into the common excuses like "he started it" or "he was worse than me". Having your own chat logs forces people to see their own behavior. If someone thinks the context of the other chat changed the meaning of what they said to something acceptable they can always submit a support ticket to get it reviewed.

Sarutobi3 votes

But at the end of the day you are responsible for your actions. Remember that I'm sure it does take into account "jokes" especially since I've never seen someones chatlog where the only "bad thing" they could have possibly said would have been Report for no skins. I mean context is not needed for things like kill yourself, or using racist/homophobic slurs which are generally what people get reported and eventually ban for. But at the end of the day its all on you!

XinZhao2WinNhao3 votes

The threads I see are the people getting reported for telling their teammates to report someone else.

If I don't see what the other person did I don't know if it's understandable to ask to report them. If they were telling people to kill themselves and using racist and homophobic slurs, asking someone to report them is understandable.

If they were just having a bad game or KDA, it's not understandable to ask to report them.

And even if the chat logs aren't ambiguous, adding other people chats won't matter. It won't hurt.

It's only in the ambiguous cases that it helps.

GaleWinUnleashed3 votes

Doesn't particularly matter whether the other person was doing something reportable or not. The point is that bringing it up by asking for reports cannot have any positive effect on the game. Try to calm them down if you can think of a good way to do it, but otherwise keep silent about it and report them yourself when the game is over. Mentioning that you're going to report someone, or asking others to help you do so, is extremely unlikely to help the situation in any way.

https://i.imgur.com/1HvNiEO.png?noredirect

XinZhao2WinNhao2 votes

I never said that it was a good thing to ask for reports.

I just said that it's understandable if someone is pushing you to the edge of your wits with constant racial slurs for you to say something that might be more unacceptable under other conditions.

That's why there's mitigating circumstances in law. If someone is saying racist things to you and constantly harassing you in real life, and you punch him, you will have a far less punishment than if you punched him for no reason, and I think that it makes perfect sense. Of course going to the police is a better answer than punching him. But it's more understandable than if you just punched him for no reason.

GaleWinUnleashed4 votes

In a virtual setting, striking back is never the correct way to defend yourself from a stranger you probably won't encounter again. It cannot do anything to mitigate their ability to continue verbally assaulting you. The correct response is to block the blows (mute), and, if you believe it is severe enough, to go to the authorities (report). In real life, there may be physical danger involved if you allow the person to keep harassing you without a response, so a physical response from you can be partially justified. But online, there is no chance of physical harm, so all forms of aggressive behavior towards others are counter-productive.

https://i.imgur.com/1HvNiEO.png?noredirect

XinZhao2WinNhao2 votes

As I said, I never said it was the right thing to do. You're literally arguing with a strawman if you think that's what I'm saying.

I said I think it's an understandable thing to do.

If you're being pushed to the edge of your patience by someone who's intentionally harassing you, it makes sense if you say something snappy or rude back. It's not the right thing to do. But it's definitely an understandable thing to do.

People aren't completely emotionless robotic saints. People are people. If you piss people off intentionally, people will be pissed off. Technically the right thing to do when pissed off is to find somewhere where you can calm down and step away from the situation. But it's understandable if you say something back when pissed off, especially if someone tells you to kill yourself just because you're bad at a video game. Definitely should be a mitigating circumstance there if the person responded by saying "shut up stupid" after someone else tells them to "kill yourself you bronze noob".

Punishing both the instigator and the responder equally is really not fair in this case.

And yes, that's why I'm against the 0 tolerance rules in schools, which tend to punish the victim for standing up for himself as much as it punishes the bully. I've been bullied in school, and the 0 tolerance laws aren't actually reducing how much bullying goes on.

GaleWinUnleashed1 votes

I kinda went off on a tangent; just started typing and it got away from me to the point that I changed topics somewhat.

You have an excellent point, it's just that it's rather difficult for an automated system to see context. I think that's the main barrier to the system in the more ambiguous cases. Perhaps AI improvements in the future will help to judge these situations more fairly.

https://i.imgur.com/1HvNiEO.png?noredirect

XinZhao2WinNhao1 votes

I agree. I think the ambiguous cases could go back to Tribunal.

I'm not sure why tribunal was taken down, but if it's due to the fact that there's too many cases and not enough people judging, maybe only send the ambiguous cases to Tribunal.

The automated system can take care of the clear punish and clear pardon ones.

SmokedAlmonds2 votes

It might be understandable, but that doesn't have any impact on it being acceptable. I understand why people ask for reports, that doesn't change that it is at best useless, and realistically can only escalate the situation. Asking to report is like trying to put out a fire with gasoline.

{quoted}

Punishing both the instigator and the responder equally is really not fair in this case.

That's the thing, though, they aren't punished equally. Both of their cases are completely independent of each other and generally not based solely on that one incident anyway. If they are both punished after that game then it is just a coincidence that the game where each of them crossed their individual thresholds for punishment happened to be in the same game.

XinZhao2WinNhao3 votes

If someone instigates and you respond, and you both get reported and punished, you both get the same series of punishment : (I think it's this but I'm not sure) chat restriction, 3 day ban, 14 day ban, permaban.

Regardless of what you actually did.

That's punishing the instigator and responder equally.

That's like having a system that punishes people with 1 year in jail for 1st offense, 5 years in jail for 2nd offense, 20 years in jail for 3rd offense and life in jail for 4th offense regardless of whether you robbed a bank or just smoked some weed in college.

SmokedAlmonds2 votes

You get the same punishments because punishments but you didn't get there in the same time. It is more than just number of times punished, it is the frequency and severity of the behavior.

The severe offender is going to be punished based on fewer games than the minor offender. The only reason they look the same is because the guy did is 3rd of 3 required severe offenses at the same time the minor guy doing the 10th of 10 required minor offenses.(yes I made these number up).

They get the same punishments because the punishments are largely to inform you that your behavior is unacceptable. Both the severe and minor offenses are considered unacceptable. So doing either will trend your account towards a permanent ban. The level of severity just changes how quickly you get there.

Your jail analogy is not an accurate representation of the league punishment system. What the offense is, matters. The guy robbing a bank would skip to 20 years or life and the guy smoking weed in college would have to do it 4 times.

XinZhao2WinNhao2 votes

Okay, maybe it's not a good analogy, but to be fair there isn't very much transparency on what the current system does, so we really don't know what the system does most of the time. I read a lot of the LoL news on things like the player behavior system and I didn't get much information out of the things I read.

But 20 years in prison for smoking weed in college 4 times also sounds harsh. I'm sure a sizable percentage of the population in my college have smoked weed more than that and are otherwise good citizens. But that's a digression.

SmokedAlmonds1 votes

I agree, there are serious transparency/perception issues revolving around the system. I spend an unhealthy amount of time on the boards discussing it, and spend a fair amount of time researching it and even I have questions.

They system is way more in depth than just do something 4 times though. Saying that was a major oversimplification on my part. Again, there are very few parallels to draw between criminal punishments and league punishments in this context. Because league punishments aren't typically based on a single incident. It would be more like if each of those prison sentences was the result of 1 year of usage.

(before someone says it, the weed thing is just an example being used. It has nothing to do with how I feel about it)

Also wukong, you still have the most interesting match history NA.

XinZhao2WinNhao1 votes

Thanks for the explanation of the system. I wasn't entirely sure what the system does exactly so your explanation helps a bit.

Totalwanabe3 votes

you do realize that cyber bullying exist and can lend to suicide and you don't have to be physically harassing someone for that psychological harassment is far more vicious then physical abuse.

GaleWinUnleashed1 votes

I hope I realize that by now. There was a time a few years back when that sort of thing might have pushed me over the edge; I hospitalized myself for help with suicidal thoughts, and with medication (and talking about it; I hid it from everyone for about 7 years) I'm greatly improved. It's part of the reason I have absolutely no sympathy for poor behavior, particularly those don't seem to realize that it is simply not acceptable. I can understand the occasional outburst, even frequent ones, but there's no excuse for behaving in that manner as if it is normal. I can shrug it off now, but having been in that vulnerable state helps me to understand what sort of behavior might push someone else toward self-harm.

My goal is to ensure that players realize that there is another living, thinking, emotional being on the other side of that computer screen. One that deserves to be treated the same as a stranger you might meet on the street, if not better, because you can't even see them to know how they react to things.

https://i.imgur.com/1HvNiEO.png?noredirect

Morality Coach1 votes

It's irrelevant, if you can't figure out how to be toxic without setting off the Tribunal AI then you're too dumb to play this game anyway.

XinZhao2WinNhao2 votes

I don't want to be toxic and I'm not toxic.

I don't encourage being toxic in response to toxicity. I just believe that it's a mitigating circumstance that should result in a lower punishment based on context. There would still be a punishment or at least a warning. I'm not saying "make it ok to respond to toxicity with more toxicity."

Morality Coach1 votes

If you type more than 5-10 lines in an LOL game you're screwing the game up regardless of what's said.

I type 125 WPM and there is no time to type 50+ lines like these toxies do.

It's toxic having a buddy buddy bro bro conversation in ranked, I don't really care what's said, while you're typing you're missing CS.

Most of the LOL playerbase is super socially awkward and emotionally disturbed. Rarely do we need to hear anything from an LOL player in game.

XinZhao2WinNhao2 votes

I'm not toxic and I type a lot of lines. I usually defend people who are getting harassed by telling the harassers to stop. I also say gj to my team a lot. I also ask for heals, ask the tank to tank a turret, etc. I also shotcall.

I don't have my chat logs so idk how much I type but i'm sure I type a lot. Typing a lot doesn't mean toxic.

Morality Coach1 votes

I'd rather have a dude just tell me to kys and go on with the game than type like you do. Trust me you are toxic and there is a reason you are being punished.

Long chats tilt people regardless of content, that's why the punishment tries to get you to slow your typing down cause no one wants to read it.

Cpt Jack Bird1 votes

The guy isn't banned at all. Failing to consider the actual terms of the case being judged is a pretty big ethical failure, as your factors to weight are then faulty and/or insufficient :(

Just because you missed it the first 5 times: this person hasn't been punished. And isn't going to be!

Morality Coach1 votes

I think the dude got a 10 game and won't admit it, that's why he made this thread. Anyone who goes on for 50 lines every game arguing is going to get a 10 game eventually.

As usual my deep understanding of ethics and morality allow me to see through the problem at hand and bring light to the situation.

Astôlfo1 votes

Context is irrelevant. One is responsible for their own actions and no others. One also always has full physical control of what they type or do. If they chose to act incorrectly, they get punished. Simple as that. End of story.

XinZhao2WinNhao1 votes

Ok context is irrelevent. Tell me if Garen is being toxic or not in this made up chat log.

Garen: no, 5 Garen: lol Garen: no Garen: bronze 5 Garen: ikr Garen: ok buddy Garen: wtf Garen: mia Garen: 35 minutes Garen: 3 kills Garen: i know Garen: you deserve challenger Garen: ok buddy Garen: i know Garen: 10 assists Garen: gg

Now I know you're thinking "but nobody talks like that." Wrong. Toxics who want to be toxic without being punished talk like that. Purposely ambiguous.

Now look at these 2 situations that where Garen has the same chat log.

Here, Garen and his duo Teemo are bullying Sejuani.

Teemo: omg sejuani noob. 3 deaths in 6 minutes Garen: no, 5 Teemo: wtf look at that fail flash Garen: lol Teemo: I think he's actually a silver scrub Garen: no Garen: bronze 5 Teemo: I think we have the worst jungle na Garen: ikr Sejuani: just chill, I can carry later, just let me finish my sated Garen: ok buddy (Garen gets ganked) Garen: wtf Garen: mia (30 minutes later) Teemo: Our jungler is so useless Garen: 35 minutes Garen: 3 kills Sejuani: I have 25 assists though Garen: i know Garen: you deserve challenger Garen: ok buddy Teemo: If only my team would stop KSing me Garen: i know Garen: 10 assists Teemo: if he keeps KSing me I'm going to feed Garen: gg

In the next chat, Garen is not being toxic with the same chat log and actually being a fun teammate.

Teemo: Are there 4 enemies at blue? Garen: no, 5 Teemo: got it, thanks Teemo: should we get our team to gank them? Garen: lol Garen: no Ashe: What rank are you guys btw? Teemo: Silver 4 Garen: bronze 5 Yi: Bronze 3 Sejuani: P1 Yi: omg first time we have a plat on the team Garen: ikr Yi: I'm going to b right now, does anyone want to cover top lane? Garen: ok buddy (Garen gets hit with a nidalee spear) Garen: wtf Yi: I know, these spear ranges are crazy Teemo: lol (Nid leaves lane) Garen: mia (30 minutes later) Yi: when do elder dragons start spawning? Garen: 35 minutes (wards show enemy team going there) Teemo: we should gank them. Garen: 3 kills (they gank) Teemo: nice triple kill Yi Garen: i know Garen: you deserve challenger Yi: ok lets push their nexus now Garen: ok buddy Teemo: damn we have a lot of assists lol Teemo: I'm the assist king right here Garen: i know Garen: 10 assists (they finish off enemy nexus) Garen: gg Teemo: gg Yi: gg Ashe: gg

Adding context can actually help punish toxics who try to skirt the system such as in the first case, whereas without context, both of these would probably be a pardon despite the fact that in the first case, Garen is being toxic.

Morality Coach1 votes

Yeah I'm sure Riot wants to hire 1000 new people just to read through all this stuff.

Just stop typing so much lol, it's simple.

XinZhao2WinNhao1 votes

It was called the Tribunal, where people did this for free.

And I understand there might not be enough people who volunteer, that's why I suggest that only the ambiguous cases go to tribunal. The automated system would be in place for the clear cut punish/pardon cases.

Morality Coach1 votes

The Tribunal was trash, auto voting punish without reading through it was the best way for farm IP for it.

Face it, you're just going to have to have self control.

XinZhao2WinNhao1 votes

First of all, you're talking to me like I'm a toxic player. I'm not a toxic player. I actually have honor ribbons because I 1) never give up and 2) encourage my team to do their best and give morale raising pep talk and 3) stand up for teammates when they're being harassed.

And I think they should get rid of the IP rewards for Tribunal for the same exact reason. Also get rid of the "accuracy ratings" because that also incentivizes conformity (aka spamming punish).

Morality Coach1 votes

Yeah, all of that is useless and tilts a lot of good players.

Not typing much at all is how you climb in ranked.

XinZhao2WinNhao1 votes

No, being a leader is how you climb.

Encourage your teammates. Say gj when they do something well, and keep up team morale if the team is losing by saying "we still got this" or "dont worry, we can comeback."

Shot call. "Garen and Yi, go down bot lane to gank. Trundle got dragon and Ashe is going to splitpush top lane. I'm going to solo baron."

Try to stop your team infighting. "Please don't pick on Xin Zhao, he's trying his best." "Stop arguing and play please."

Morality Coach1 votes

lol no, that care bear talk will tilt your 14 year old Draven main who would have carried the game otherwise.

This is why you're perma B5.

TrulyBland1 votes

I would agree if these chatlogs were meant to be judged by others. Ultimately, those logs are sent to the punished player to show them what they did wrong. And if you attempt something like that, you need to deliver densely compressed information. It might sound stupid, but given that probably only few people really read those logs carefully, you need to basically throw what they did wrong right in their face the moment the logs pop up. And given that all of this isn't done manually, your best chance of doing so is only having the logs of the punished player. It also helps stressing the point that for some insults, context hardly matters, and that what other people say is no justification for retaliation.

If you think about it, only a minority of players that gets punished ever even comes to the forums to seek advice, which means worst case they don't care either way, or best case (which is what I actually believe) the current solution works well enough for the majority of players, when it comes to showing them why they were punished.

I suppose it would be nice if there was some additional option to get the full logs, just so people on the forums can more easily judge logs (and thus can give better advice for the few that seek it), but I also believe priority number one should be showing people what they did wrong in the most poignant way possible.

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