After few Jungles...

Saianna·Dec 6, 2014·3 votes·1,333 views

First of: i play on Summoners Rift only in Co-op. I'm playing mostly to relax or check something.

I've tried just few champions in new jungle. And i'm really concerned if that was good idea to rework jungle monsters. I always thought jungle was about giving us, players, way for diversity. Allowing for top laner and jungler to increase level just as fast as on mid and ofcourse ability to gank, or create pressure on enemy.

New jungle proved me wrong. Boy i was surprised when bot lane has outleveled me! I've killed mobs as they spawned, I've ran with all my power in legs from 1 spot to another. I've even risked my safety, finishing mobs with sliver of health before recalling. And all in vain. Even supports level was higher. So i asked myself:

"If i cannot level at least as fast as bot lane, while mid and top are far ahead, then how am I supposed to help my teammates? I don't get enough gold, going against any top bruiser would most likely cripple my jungling for 2~minutes not to mention i might actually die. Then.. What's the point?"

And what's even worse jungle mobs are way too strong early. I can understand if blue/reds are strong, toads even.. But those birds... They are nightmare. Even rocks can beat you to pulp.. Especially if you lack sustain.

Champions i've tried in new jungle: Yi (lame), WW (strong, but everyone knows that), Fiddle (just amazing jungler. Solo dragon at level 4-5). Pantheon (dragon at 2 D'oh, but nothing shiny like WW or Fiddle). I know there are alot of other champs I could try jungling but, just those 3 were enough to see something is off.

I've even encountered 2 bugs, which i managed to recreate with ease. (i'm not sure if i should post them. If not, then mod, please remove it) 1.) As we all know each jungle camp has it's miniboss and minions. If you get rock buff to stun on every 4th hit and your AS is high enough (1,5+~) as long as you keep miniboss in stunlock, then little minions won't attack. Like they are connected. Weird. 2.) As ranged if you stay little behind return zone for jungle mobs and your AS is fast enough to damage them before they make full return, then they'll be running back and forth while not hitting and not self healing.

Then.. Guys.. What's the point of jungling if it hurts jungler (and his team) more, than if he'd stay in top lane like good boy? I'm afraid if i picked easiest jungle champions and still struggled, then how other manage in new jungle? Like Evelynn (which i heard she isn't viable jungler anymore), or Nautillus..

TL;DR part: Mobs too strong. Exp/Gold gains too little. Can't gank. Supports outlevels me. Help. Better nerf Irelia.

14 Comments

tempname41567489Dec 6, 20143 votes

Honestly I feel compared to DOTA, leagues jungle serves to LIMIT diversity. In DOTA, jungling at lvls 1-5 is extremely hard for most champions in the game, but there are a select few that can fill that niche. As a result 2-1-2, 3-1-1, and 1-1-3 lanes are more common. The classic league setup 1-1-2-jungle is more of a luxury and not something thats required every game.

I enjoy both games, but I feel DOTAs lane setup diversity is far superior to leagues 1-1-2-jungle everygame meta.

AnidanDec 6, 20143 votes

I kinda feel the same. Not unusual to see something like "Lina + Luna + Disruptor safe lane - Invoker mid lane - Windranger off-lane" or "Chaos Knight + Io safe lane - Dragon Knight mid - Ursa jungle - Faceless Void off-lane" and so on. I feel like there's more game-by-game diversity in DotA.

Not saying either game is better, though my preference does lean toward DotA personally, but still. This game seems to have an enforced meta, regardless of what's said, and DotA simply doesn't appear to have a set lane meta.

Edit: I guess now Faceless Void off-lane isn't quite as common after the nerfs. So that could be replaced by Clockwerk or Tidehunter. Point still stands.

ZanathaxDec 6, 20142 votes

LoL really doesn't have an enforced meta. It has an encouraged meta - that's really not the same. The problem with not having a jungler is that doing it means the other team is simply going to have at least 1 champion stronger than you - because their top lane is solo and yours is 2v1 plus their team has a jungler soaking up gold and exp from the jungle and probably stealing your jungle as well.

It's not an enforced meta when people are doing what's simply better. If you want to talk about enforcing the meta, look at bottom lane. Supports and ADCs are the closest thing to an enforced meta that's in the game. ADCs are put in a lane with a support because ADCs have weak early games but are monsters late game. They're SO strong late that everyone wants one on their team, but because of their early weakness they need a literal babysitter or else the opposing team will just gank the ADC into uselessness. The ADCs are all made so that they scale better with gold than with exp, so they can afford to do the double lane as long as the support isn't stealing their last hits. Supports, on the other hand, have been consistently given items that are literally only good for them and useless to anyone else in the game. Ones that completely reinforce the meta of duo bot lane with ADC and support.

The jungle doesn't have anything to do with an enforced meta in LoL. But bot lane sure does.

AzureArchangelDec 6, 20143 votes

I have to agree, I've tried to jungle with all my old standbys, Elise, Vi, even Noc... I can't do it. everything feels horrible. I get too low, don't have the 2 extra pots to fall back on because Machete had a price increase... and I always get outleveled by lane... All in All, jungling feels disgusting and useless to me now. I hope Riot realizes they screwed up big time and lower the damage from monsters, and raise their exp numbers more than they are currently.

This really is ridiculous, if there is some secret to this I am missing, then I'd like to be clued in.

ZanathaxDec 6, 20142 votes

You guys complaining about the new jungle never played in S1 or S2, did you? To put it bluntly, you're pretty much been spoiled by the easy mode that was S3 and S4 jungle. The jungle is hard now. It requires skill. Practice. Knowledge. Good runes and masteries. S3 and 4 jungles requires none of those. This is a GOOD change. An awesome one, really.

I'm sorry if you're having trouble, but I've got to be honest with you - I'm not. I've tried 8 or 10 different champs in the jungle, now. Different champs give different trade offs. If you had issues with WW, Yi, and Fiddles in the jungle though, you probably shouldn't be jungling until you learn what you're doing wrong. Because if you're having problems with those 3, then you ARE doing something wrong. Horribly wrong. Maybe watch a pro jungler or high ranked jungler's stream? Because those are 3 of the strongest and easiest to play junglers in the game right now. No way you should be having any trouble with them. Jungling with WW is literally just do w/e the heck you feel like because you can completely ignore the damage from jungle enemies between his passive and his Q. He could probably jungle WITHOUT the jungler item if he really wanted to. That's just silly!

SaiannaDec 6, 20141 votes

I've played jungle year before ranked introduction. If a champion designed only for jungling can't jungle then wtf are you trying to prove?

ZanathaxDec 6, 20141 votes

No champion is designed only for jungling, or only for one role. The closest thing to that is probably Nunu, and even he sees play in other places in LCS play, both top and as support.

Good job completely not responding to anything I said though.

The fact that you're saying that jungling on those champs is hard for you means you're doing something wrong. I didn't say you were bad, or dumb, or anything else. I said you were doing something wrong. I tried to give you ways to learn how to fix that. If you'd prefer to stay ignorant of the proper way to jungle in the S5 jungle, that is completely your decision. The fact that you jungled during Beta means jack squat if you haven't paid attention to the new changes for the new season... which is the only reason I can possibly imagine you having trouble if you're that experienced a jungler.

SaiannaDec 6, 20142 votes

Evelynn

Where do you see her? Where can she be if not jungle?

Anyways i'm done. Talking with you is exhausting.

ZanathaxDec 7, 20141 votes

Evelynn is garbage. Evelynn has always been garbage, either cheaty OP garbage because of her stealth + Ult + DFG or actual garbage like she is now. Her stealth makes her completely unbalanceable. She was originally designed and used as a laner, and occasionally put in the jungle. Last season she was OP jungle BS because jungle was so easy.

Simply put, Eve doesn't have a place in LoL at all, and she should be deleted. She'll never be ok as long as she keeps her perma stealth in any way, shape, or form.

I'm sorry if logic and knowledge exhaust you. Have a nice day!

mg0ldDec 7, 20141 votes

This man. Listen to this man. He speaks wise words. And eve is fine in the jungle after 2 clears. Shes not meant for sustain. Shes meant for miserable ganks that make people afk. Sorry she can't keep full health AND gank at 3.

TragestyXDec 6, 20141 votes

Number 2 is definitely not a bug. They just can't reach you.

SaiannaDec 6, 20141 votes

Reaching is not a bug, but their walking back and forth = rather terrible/buggy AI. IF you have knowledge of ranges for all camps, then you'll see ALOT of ranged junglers breaking the meta sooner or later :)

mg0ldDec 7, 20141 votes

I truly don't understand why people don't like the new jungle. It might be more brutal, but it makes it that much better. It forces you to think about how you approach it and where to smite instead of AA this and AA that. And as for jungling, any attack speed based champ is very doable. Champs with sustain are also very good. The jungle is not anywhere near impossible either. Some games i find myself ahead of levels to the top with someone like nocturne or trundle. You just need a leash for the first camp and its smooth sailing from then on... So don't ask for riot to spoon feed you. Just stay in a lane and stop jungling if you don't like it.

SaiannaDec 7, 20142 votes

It's not about if i like or dislike new jungle. It's about "if it's worth jungling or not", or "is your champion capable of new jungle or not".

Champions without strong AA, nor sustain, nor built in AS steroids suffocate in new jungle. Ask any Nautillus main if he's fine with new jungle. Or Evelynn fans.

I don't mind if jungle is harder, but if it passes trough sanity border of excluding half of mostly-jungling champions, then i think something is just wrong :/