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Challenge: Give an example of lore development that results from the removal of Summoners.

Pyro··9 votes·3,839 views

protip: you can't

On a serious note, let's play this silly game. Every lore whiner like me is encouraged to put aside their criticism of the new directive in lore and focus on the subject of the challenge itself. If we don't get good answers, we have convincing (yet not final) proof that the new direction in lore wasn't needed (unless Riot pulls off a miracle and proves us wrong). If we get some ideas, we can hope that maybe there's something good coming out of this (and that's what we ultimately want).

#Challenge requirements:

  • Describe a lore development of any kind, may it be champion backstory, ongoing story, player-affected event or any piece of knowledge about Runeterra.
  • Optionally, describe the form in which it's provided (written, comic, animated short, CGI IMAX movie, anime series) - "written" is default.
  • The lore development has to contradict the existence of the League of Legends.
  • Rephrasing the condition above: The lore development should be impossible if Summoners and Institute of War exist.
  • The lore development does not have to take into account any in-game mechanics or content and can focus on factions or personalities alone.
  • The lore development can, however, reinvent the answer to the question of what are those random characters doing on Summoner's Rift.

The more general and versatile your example is, the better.

Easy mode: Just describe something that makes Institute of War an obstacle in writing. Normal mode: Provide an explanation on how that form of story/characterization is impossible within the old boundaries. Hard mode: Connect all aspects of LoL - the world, the characters and the gameplay. Dark Souls mode: Explain why this new form of lore is better than if Summoners were around.

Rioters are welcome to participate. No obligations - you can make up things on the spot, you can even throw in something you're actually planning to do and see the initial reactions. Whatever you make up, as long as it solves the question, it would be awesome.

Good luck!

72 Comments

DG Ashabel11 votes

You are being too kind. If you really want to drive the point of why the new lore is a terrible design decision home, you can do so in a much more effective fashion. Here I go...

Tell me a story only League of Legends can tell.

By that, I do not mean specifically through the game. I mean I want to be told a story that can only be obtained from League of Legends. It needs to be a story that doesn't make you go "Wow, that is exactly why I'm following fantasy/steampunk/whatever," it needs to be a story that makes you go "Wow, that is exactly why I'm following League of Legends".

Protip: The Shurima event fails disastrously in that regard. If you can tell a story through every other piece of fiction that features an ancient civilization just by swapping the principal cast's names around, it's not an inherently League of Legends story. For the sake of not making the entries that fall under this rule automatic failures, I'll add a second condition.

Provide a compelling reason why the audience should be compelled to seek this kind of story from League of Legends and not any other piece of fiction that tells it.

Ponder this challenge and you'll realize why most people consider the reworked lore to be garbage. It doesn't have a narrative hook. It's every single fantasy/steampunk mish-mash out there, which means people could just as easily get it from Legend of Korra or Final Fantasy or any other story that features this type of setting. There is nothing about this new lore that encourages loyalty to the narrative, therefore people struggle to care about it.

333lom7 votes

This is one of the best points I've heard so far, and I agree completely.

The new lore might be bigger, with more details or action (but I doubt it, judging by the Shurima event and other new things), but it will be completely stereotypical. There won't be anything to differentiate it from any other work of fiction. It's just going to be another fantasy world ravaged by war. Why should people care about it? Because of the champions? They're just going to be random characters now, many could very easily belong to some other fantasy world just by changing name.

DG Ashabel10 votes

It's been a running joke between me and several friends that you could replace the names in Shurima event and get the exact same story. You could replace Sivir by Ashe (destined princess), Cassiopeia by Lissandra (ice-cold deceiver), the keyblade with the crystal bow and Xerath with some kind of Iceborn power (thus triggering Lissandra's transformation into the Ice Witch). Boom, exact same story just with different names. That's how badly generic it is.

I love the champions now, but that's because I've been playing League for three years and got invested in their lives by the value of being a Summoner fighting by their side, their actions in the Institute as told through the League of Legends and so on. Now they're just these people who are all references to other people from other popular fiction, who somehow live in this generic fantasy/steampunk setting and sometimes do things. Where's the reason for me to care about them? Why should I be invested more in Ashe and not Sylvanas Windrunner, who concludes the Forsaken questline by tapping me on the shoulder and thanking me for being by her side? Why should I care more about Vayne and not my friend's Demon Hunter, who loosed the bolt that kept Leoric from lobbing my head off? What makes Miss Fortune more compelling than Isabela from Dragon Age? These are all valid questions.

In general, video game stories are allowed to be somewhat generic because they foster investment through the player's direct interaction with the characters. It's why World of Warcraft is a bloody mess and people still play it, and why there's this entire cult around Mass Effect. The stories are generic but people are provided with reasons to care about them.

The current lore is generic and provides zero reasons to care about it. And honestly, it won't magically provide those reasons by pumping more content separate from the game because League's community is centered around a video game and will seek direct investment, not passive observation.

Diahane4 votes

It's been a running joke between me and several friends that you could replace the names in Shurima event and get the exact same story. You could replace Sivir by Ashe (destined princess), Cassiopeia by Lissandra (ice-cold deceiver), the keyblade with the crystal bow and Xerath with some kind of Iceborn power (thus triggering Lissandra's transformation into the Ice Witch). Boom, exact same story just with different names. That's how badly generic it is.

I love the champions now, but that's because I've been playing League for three years and got invested in their lives by the value of being a Summoner fighting by their side, their actions in the Institute as told through the League of Legends and so on. Now they're just these people who are all references to other people from other popular fiction, who somehow live in this generic fantasy/steampunk setting and sometimes do things. Where's the reason for me to care about them? Why should I be invested more in Ashe and not Sylvanas Windrunner, who concludes the Forsaken questline by tapping me on the shoulder and thanking me for being by her side? Why should I care more about Vayne and not my friend's Demon Hunter, who loosed the bolt that kept Leoric from lobbing my head off? What makes Miss Fortune more compelling than Isabela from Dragon Age? These are all valid questions.

In general, video game stories are allowed to be somewhat generic because they foster investment through the player's direct interaction with the characters. It's why World of Warcraft is a bloody mess and people still play it, and why there's this entire cult around Mass Effect. The stories are generic but people are provided with reasons to care about them.

The current lore is generic and provides zero reasons to care about it. And honestly, it won't magically provide those reasons by pumping more content separate from the game because League's community is centered around a video game and will seek direct investment, not passive observation.

This. So much this. You nailed it.

brusque1 votes

Provide a compelling reason why the audience should be compelled to seek this kind of story from League of Legends and not any other piece of fiction that tells it.

Ponder this challenge and you'll realize why most people consider the reworked lore to be garbage.

Can you show me who "most people are" that consider the reworked lore to be garbage? I mean, did you take a poll of the League of Legends community and get 5,000,000 responses that say, "wow this reworked lore sucks." Or, are you basing this opinion on the bias that you think the new direction sucks, and that your close circle of friends also believe the same thing?

The truth is that people go to see poorly written movies regardless because of loyalties to stories and franchises. You can still have loyalty to a narrative that undergoes a retcon. So although some people struggle to care about it, there are a lot of people who don't struggle and, probably, even more people that will never give a shit. They want to consume visually awesome content that makes them feel good.

DG Ashabel2 votes

Can you show me who "most people are" that consider the reworked lore to be garbage? I mean, did you take a poll of the League of Legends community and get 5,000,000 responses that say, "wow this reworked lore sucks."

Yes, there was a poll about the new lore in General Discussion on the old forums, with only 10% of people voting for it, 70% voting against it and the rest being either severely indifferent or not even knowing that League of Legends had lore.

brusque1 votes

Yes, there was a poll about the new lore in General Discussion on the old forums, with only 10% of people voting for it, 70% voting against it and the rest being either severely indifferent or not even knowing that League of Legends had lore.

Can you show me the poll? Can we also talk about the distribution and characteristics of the 70% voting against it? Can you show me the total number of people involved in the study? (70% of 10 is 7 people)? Data is my best friend.

Edit: What I mean to say is, this poll proooobably isn't an accurate representation of the entire League of Legends community's feelings.

DG Ashabel3 votes

Here.

As you can see, around a thousand people, which is likely the entire population of the forums.

You might be biased against my representation of the community's feelings, but it doesn't change the fact that the vast majority of discussion surrounding lore indicates that the number of people who like the new lore is the lowest out of all categories. Even indifference is more pronounced than enjoyment of it.

For the record, I'm leaning more in favor of indifference than dislike as well. I make a lot of arguments explaining why the rework is bad in terms of community involvement and game design, but the new lore is actually too much like a poorly edited toy commercial for me to muster any feelings of dislike.

Cookiehime5 votes

(EDIT: This is more about lore development that can happen with IoW and Summoners, and is rather a counter argument)

It's implied that the Voidborn "imprisoned" by the Institute were biding their time, waiting for the perfect opportunity to break out. Summoners did not suspect their plans and thought they could use the power of the Void for their own benefit like having them on their team to win matches as they were quite powerful. Besides, if you listen to Cho, you'll find that he seems to enjoy taunting the Summoner directing him on the FoJ (e.g: "SUMMONER, YOUR DARKNESS BECKONS!", etc.). This is what Void creatures do. They corrupt Summoners and try to drive them insane so they can join them. The Void can influence the Summoners to summon more Voidborn to Runeterra. They were fooled into thinking that they had control over those creatures, when, in reality, it was the quite the opposite scenario. Malzahar convinced Summoners that the power of the Void can be of great use to them and they believed him. I think that in the JoJ, it was mentioned that Summoners were quite interested in the Void and wished to learn more about it, which is why they never suspected Malz and thought he'd be very useful in helping them know about the Void and acquire the powers which came with it. They had NO CLUE what Malzahar's true intentions were. They be like, "Hey, cool! More Voidborn to help us out on the FoJ!"

Imagine when they gather a whole army of Void creatures. Would the Institute REALLY be able to hold them back?

That was the plan. And I thought it was brilliant.

(Kinda glad the JoJ made it pretty obscure. I had 2+ years to think about it and figure that out)

GenoXx4 votes

This feeble attempt for bait will not compel them to give us a piece of this secret lore treasure they have lol I would be astonished if any rioter consider dropping by

Dreamspitter2 votes

#Ragnarök & Roll -A Dreamspitter LoL Event

#Before:

Brand was a prisoner of the league -insisted he was not Evil but rather nature and that “Your League of Legends is not what you think it is and your summoners are not heroes. Beware.” in his interview in the Journal of Justice.

From the journal of justice

Brand: “What do you think I am?”

Ram: “A fire-mage who went too far? Some sort of possessing entity? A murderous madman who lit himself on fire? These have all been posed.”

Brand: “No! I am something far greater! I am the Burning Vengeance!”

Ram: “But what exactly is that?”

Brand: “A primal elemental spirit, fool. Can you understand that?”

He was just a puppet to be used, not involved in world events at all. Brand claims he is destined to renew the world by burning it, which is Surtr's role in Ragnarök.

Ram: “How did you come into being? I mean, we're born from parents and even the Cryophoenix has an origin. What's yours?”

Brand: “I was born with the world. At first, I flowed through it. Then, I flowed into it and took a body. Then, my purpose became plain.”

Ram: “And that is...”

Brand: “To purify the world. To renew it. To burn it down again and again to make way for what is to come. That's what your League doesn't understand. I am not evil. I am nature. I am necessary.”

#After:

Brand can now carry out his mission as a nature spirit possessing a human raider of Lokfar (Kegan Rodhe), and burn down the creations of man (Especially Zaunite and Piltovian techmaturgical creations and magical sources pollution that made things like Twitch) before they can harm Runeterra and renew the planet. Maokai who is a nature spirit who took refuge in a tree might join him if he is willing to burn down the shadow isles and the undead which should not be (becoming Charred Maokai). Malphite too, also being elemental in nature might join his side (especially as* Obsidian Malphite*). Zyra might consent too if only sapient civilization were destroyed in order to preserve the balance of anture (as Wildfire Zyra). Their transformations into their firebranded forms/skins would be done through Brand's magic and be a sign of their pact/alliance.

Malphite-Top Maokai-Jungle Brand-Mid Zyra-Support Jinx-Marksman

Now the last one stands out from all the others, HOWEVER....she might be lured by the promise of destruction on a scale she could never achieve on her own. "Ready to set the world on fire?" (laugh) Brand might find this ironic seeing as she was once a member of Zaun. To go with the event she get's a new skin, "Wildfire Jinx". In truth, destroying all civilization would leave her with nothing to do. And Jinx is mercurial and unpredictable...

Obviously civilization wont like this.

Which opens up the option for Lissandra to offer her "Assistance" possibly with the returned/awakened Frozen Watchers and their mastery over True Ice which can seal Brand and his current human host. (Remember in the journal of Justice he said he COULD NOT be destroyed -if slain his spirit would live on and return). While Brand is immortal and immaterial flame in his true form, true ice was able to contain his fire spirit form. The Three Sisters fight together and not with each other. Braum Heart of The Freljord joins with them, hoping he can keep them together until the conflict is over ("Sometimes icy heart just needs warm smile...") Tryndamere thinks it's the wrong decision and wont help, but goes off on his own. Olaf however joins The Three Sisters alliance -perhaps it turns out Kegan Rodhe was his father, and he watched him become possessed when Brand broke out of his last True Ice prison (not unlike Gnar's true ice prison which was created by a tentacled Watcher).

Olaf-Top Sejuani-Jungle Lissandra-Mid Braum-Support Ashe-Marksman

Lissandra being ever the manipulator however intends to turn Brand's war to her advantage. By helping to defeat him, she will ensure the Ice Witch is engraved in history as a HERO and the world reveres the Watchers the Iceborn rebelled against.

Diahane5 votes

Can't quote because of the word limit. That said: good point, imprisoned characters is one of the strongest arguments the Riot team has. The counter-argument is: do we need the IoW to have never existed to free them? The answer is, it's sufficient for the IoW not to exist to achieve this goal, but it's not a necessary condition. They could get free for a whole plethora of other reasons. Given that void creatures and other dangerous ones are kept at bay by the IoW all at once, it would be no surprise if they jailbroke by just exhausting the IoW with a collective attempt. Why would they do it at the same time? It could be an attack on the IoW, for instance Malzahar guiding void followers to free Cho'Gath & co. or an even greater void raid on it (like Vel'Koz who's still not trapped by the league guiding other voidlings). They could maybe use a vacuum of resources to keep them at bay due to the IoW having to recurs to action like in Kalamanda somewhere else. Or maybe it could be the true Baron Nashor, who was feared by armies (BY ARMIES), returning home and going Godzilla on the IoW (that's the Nashorzilla idea).

So, there could be other ways to achieve the same aim, so while it requires more work, it's still feasible and makes place for an interesting event itself. An outbreak of the imprisoned threats to Runeterra would weaken the IoW's authority and political weight. Chaos could ensue, or not. Political tension would be high, especially after Kalamanda. Imagine it, they invoked the right to stop a war, but they are not even able to defend their institution or avoid such dangerous things to run away and go amok. That would give IoW's oppositors opportunities to reduce its influence and do as they please while the IoW reorganized and recovers from the damage.

Tl;dr: sufficient condition, not a necessary one.

Snolen3 votes

Counter argument, Brand's freedom is still possible with the IoW existing,

Example: Lucian plots against the shadow isle, he knows he needs a team of his own since Thresh has the entire shadow isle to his aid. Who can Lucian go to? Well, there's Vayne, but there's also Brand, someone who would be interested in purging the Shadow Isle so it can return to its formal self.

Lucian, once teamed up with Vayne eventually gains the political flag of Demacia, who in turns requests the release of Brand so they may go forward with their mission, however the shadow isle crew learns of this, and convinces Noxus to give them a political flag because of their strength.

The shadow isles now under the flag of Noxus stops the IoW from granting Brand's freedom, the summoners decide the political matter shall be handled via summoner match.

The in-game tournament shall then have two teams who get a champion pool of Noxus+Shadow isle champions, and the other team gets Demacia+Brand champion pool.

If Noxus wins the Shadow Isles not only gains a political advantage but ensures their survival from Lucian. If Demacia wins, then Noxus shuns the Shadow Isles and writes them off as weak fools, Lucian and Vayne get access to Brand, and their plot to cleanse the Shadow Isles begins.

Dreamspitter1 votes

Counter argument, Brand's freedom is still possible with the IoW existing,

Example: Lucian plots against the shadow isle, he knows he needs a team of his own since Thresh has the entire shadow isle to his aid. Who can Lucian go to? Well, there's Vayne, but there's also Brand, someone who would be interested in purging the Shadow Isle so it can return to its formal self.

Lucian, once teamed up with Vayne eventually gains the political flag of Demacia, who in turns requests the release of Brand so they may go forward with their mission, however the shadow isle crew learns of this, and convinces Noxus to give them a political flag because of their strength.

The shadow isles now under the flag of Noxus stops the IoW from granting Brand's freedom, the summoners decide the political matter shall be handled via summoner match.

The in-game tournament shall then have two teams who get a champion pool of Noxus+Shadow isle champions, and the other team gets Demacia+Brand champion pool.

If Noxus wins the Shadow Isles not only gains a political advantage but ensures their survival from Lucian. If Demacia wins, then Noxus shuns the Shadow Isles and writes them off as weak fools, Lucian and Vayne get access to Brand, and their plot to cleanse the Shadow Isles begins.

The shadow isles was -and arguably still is a "Kingdom". Although it's citizens are not exactly among the living.

Until it threatens Demacia at large, Lucian and co probably would not be allowed to wage war in such a direct manner. (And even if they did try the Institute of War would probably intervene) The undead aren't exactly mindless monsters they're still "people".

So it wouldnt really be necessary for the Shadow isles to come under Noxian rule (albeit they COULD ally with them) -there's no reason they couldnt field enough champions to form a team all on their own and insist it be fought out on The Fields of Justice. Those of the shadow isles that HAVE threatened random people like Thresh and Mordekaiser are sort of 'lone wolves' that move in the night. (Which makes it mind numbingly strange..........IF Mordekaiser, Hecarim et all arent representing the Shadow Isles then...why DID they join the League? Mordekaisers new lore doesn't mention him joining, but Hecarim's lore and Mordekaiser's OLD lore says he SPECIFICALLY demanded entry....for....some reason)

Even if a groups wins a match on the Fields of Justice....that doesn't exactly allows the winners to obliterate/annihilate the losers nation, killing (or destroying) those that reside there. Albeit it can allow them to occupy a specific area and control resources from what we have seen.

Snolen1 votes

I don't think you could call the Shadow Isles a legitimate citystate though, the majority of undead are now either mindless monsters or like the spirit at the altar who wants to be destroyed, granted there are some like the other one but I doubt there would be enough to actually be apart of the league, keep in mind Ashe's tribe originally wasn't allowed in the league before she and Tryndamere combined tribes.

I think when it comes down to it Elise and other shadow isles champions are still considered "just ghost stories" like how people don't know Lissandra is the ice witch. They're probably considered a neutral factor like Aatrox when under league.

Cookiehime2 votes

I could take the time to read all the JoJ again, then try to express the exact same ideas represented in it in a different from of writing, narrative style instead of journalistic one, making them more readable, interesting and accessible to the community at large. This is a possibility, and that's what I'd been hoping for during all those years of waiting. But I was sorely disappointed at the announcement of the retcon.

Yes, there is also the problem that the original writers left, so we, the audience and the new lore team, have no way of knowing what they had in mind when they were writing. There are many stories that were started, but never finished and were discontinued, leaving mysteries that had yet to be solved. But along with the major events, there were clues sprinkled everywhere and tiny details that shaped the world. Those clues and details, once gathered, could be assembled to form the bigger picture. There may have been missing pieces, but crafting new ones could have completed the puzzle. When I recently learned that the writers left, learned about the retcon announcement, I was shocked. I thought, "Now I'm never gonna get the answers I needed about the Void." So, I took it upon myself to find what I knew about it and reorganized all the data. I got plenty of stuff wrong in the process, and I do not claim to know everything about it yet. But I used what still remained and attempted to craft new pieces to solve the puzzle (but imo, there were barely any missing pieces). And hey, I found out that Void lore actually made sense. Since no one would answer the questions I had, I went looking for them. Maybe I came up with answers that had not been thought of yet by the writers. But I'll never know if they were the truth...

I can do that for the rest of the JoJ, not just the Void, during my free time. And there's Factions that does stuff better. Tbh, I never knew about Factions until this year. I must have been living under a rock and I slept through all the retcons and was unaware of them. Yh, that was a pretty shocking reveal when I came back, a true slap to the face that awakened all my senses.

Seriously, if the lore team needs help, just ask the fans to lend a hand. I'm sure they'll gladly pool their efforts (heh) to stabilize the shaky foundation that LoL may have been built on. I think all the people at Factions would be able to achieve that together. The minds of hundreds of people, all having their part to play and collaborating towards a unified goal can achieve great things. There may be disagreements, but teamwork and collaboration are the most important things to keep in mind. That's what it means to be sportsmanlike. If that is encouraged in-game, I do not see why this cannot be applied to lore as well.

Solideus1 votes

The institute existed to police Valorans conflicts. It stopped *any *major wars or battles from taking place, which is an obvious handicap for many interesting stories about inter- or intra-faction strife. Conflict was a major part of many champions identity, but their *only *outlet was a glorified sports arena. The stories will be better without a "deus ex machina", surely.

DG Ashabel2 votes

You do realize that there were a war and two major armed conflicts since the Insistute's foundation, right?

Solideus1 votes

I don't know what the third one would be, but Noxus Invasion of Ionia and the Kalamanda conflict were both unceremoniously quenched by the good ol' institute. The invasion couldn't have happened at all if Ionia had joined the League earlier. All of the interesting conflicts happened *before *the Institute was a thing; now that it isn't those can happen now instead.

The Institute was not enabling, it was pacifying development.

DG Ashabel7 votes

I don't know what the third one would be, but Noxus Invasion of Ionia and the Kalamanda conflict were both unceremoniously quenched by the good ol' institute.

The Institute wasn't involved in the Noxian invasion of Ionia at all. The conflict stopped because following the Great Stand of the Placidium (the battle during which Ionia turned into the undead thing she currently is), Ionians gained the upper hand and pushed the Noxus all the way down to the southern provinces, at which point Noxus called for a ceasefire because both sides suffered too many injuries to continue fighting.

Ionia did join the Institute after the Invasion and used its political power to reclaim their control over the southern provinces, but that happened long after the war.

On top of that, we have:

  • The Kalamanda Conflict (which was actually instigated by the Institute higher-ups)
  • Sejuani declaring war on Ashe.
  • Diana burning down the Solari temple.
  • Graves rampaging across half of Zaun and shooting up people while searching for Twisted Fate.
  • Jayce invading Zaun and wrecking the shit out of Viktor's followers (at which point he was warmly welcomed into the Institute).
  • Jarvan IV and Swain beating the shit out of each other right in the Institute's walls.
  • Malzahar and Kassadin repeatedly trying to murder each other and accidentally murdering Karthus instead (he got better).
  • Hecarim turning a hefty chunk of Demacian shoreline and countryside into an undead wasteland on his way to the Institute (who rolled out a red carpet for him in response).
  • Syndra's rebellion against the Ionian Elders.
  • Voidborn randomly showing up to kill people.

Seriously, if the Institute really does exist to prevent all conflict, then they sure are terrible at doing it or even making people pay for the consequences of their destruction (since Diana, Graves, Hecarim, Syndra and Jayce were all granted political sanctuary despite destroying entire stretches of land and killing lots of people). I wonder why?

Oh yeah, that's because the lore outright states that the purpose of the Institute is to prevent another Rune War and has nothing to do with preventing conflict.

Solideus1 votes

Noxus invaded Ionia because they *weren't *under the institute's protection; they soon after joined so they couldn't be attacked again. We wouldn't have see much more of that conflict. Glorified sport matches aren't *real *conflicts.

Also notice how the institute is in no way required for any of the above events to take place; many of them, especially from within the last two years, were likely written with that in mind.

The Institute stopped plenty events from continuing, though. For example, they apprehend champions, like Brand and Cho'Gath, effectively causing a full stop to their stories.

The institute was designed as a tool to reset the story to the status quo after "big" events just so the in-game experience would be consistent. Now we can have actual development and changes happen in the world.

DG Ashabel4 votes

Noxus invaded Ionia because they weren't under the institute's protection; they soon after joined so they couldn't be attacked again. We wouldn't have see much more of that conflict. Glorified sport matches aren't real conflicts.

It says nothing about Ionia joining so they wouldn't be attacked again. The way Karma's presence was written in the Journal of Justice, it sounded more like Ionia chose to splatter Noxus with minimal losses and through a very public event, thus adding insult to injury. Ionia hardly has a reason to worry about being attacked by Noxus, given that they rendered it war-incapable for a good decade.

Also, if nothing in this game is a real conflict, then why are you playing it at all or bother talking about its lore?

Also notice how the institute is in no way required for any of the above events to take place; many of them, especially from within the last two years, were likely written with that in mind.

The only reason why Hecarim is present on the mainland at all is because he wanted to join the League of Legends as a Shadow Isles representative. That's the second time you provide a blatant falsehood for your explanations.

The Institute stopped plenty events from continuing, though. For example, they apprehend champions, like Brand and Cho'Gath, effectively causing a full stop to their stories.

Cho'Gath is staying with the Institute willingly, his lore states that outright. Third blatant falsehood. Why are you arguing about the status quo, plot progression and what was possible within the game's world if you don't actually know anything about its lore?

Solideus1 votes

You seem very spiteful about being disagreed with; that is not super beneficial for a serious conversation.

It says nothing about Ionia joining so they wouldn't be attacked again. (...)

The Noxus-Ionia Conflict. They were attacked because they weren't members of the Legue. They joined and won what land they lost in a league match; they couldn't duke it out on the battlefield after that.

Also, if nothing in this game is a real conflict, then why are you playing it at all or bother talking about its lore?

Not sure what you are trying to say. I play because I enjoy the game. I like the lore for it's own sake. The average game isn't really bestseller narrative, I'm sure you agree; It seems kind of useless to force that into the canon.

The only reason why Hecarim is present on the mainland at all is because he wanted to join the League of Legends (...)

I'm sure you can imagine him having other, less vague, motivations instead. An actual invasion would be far more interesting than his one-way trip to join the spectacle.

Cho'Gath is staying with the Institute willingly, his lore states that outright. (...)

It does not, frankly. He was confined exclusively to the League of Legends. Not many opportunities for city-razing happening in there.

I have followed the lore since beta-access. The core themes I very much enjoy, but a lot of it is less than perfectly executed or sometimes quite silly. (Looking at you, JoJ.) That can really ruin ones suspension of disbelief.

I'm arguing that the new direction is a good one for storytelling. Champion stories will be developing narratives instead of them just participating in endless, stale repetition.

DG Ashabel3 votes

You seem very spiteful about being disagreed with; that is not super beneficial for a serious conversation.

I generally don't bother beating around the bush when someone makes factually wrong statements.

The Noxus-Ionia Conflict. They were attacked because they weren't members of the Legue. They joined and won what land they lost in a league match; they couldn't duke it out on the battlefield after that.

Yes. It states very clearly that Ionians repelled the Noxian invasion themselves, then used the Institute to take back what few lands were already under complete Noxian control. It doesn't say that they joined because they were afraid of being attacked again, but rather that the Institute presented themselves like joining was the only way for them to maintain independence and stability. Which makes sense further down the line, since the High Summoner of the time was eventually discovered to be corrupt and on Noxian payroll.

Not sure what you are trying to say. I play because I enjoy the game. I like the lore for it's own sake. The average game isn't really bestseller narrative, I'm sure you agree; It seems kind of useless to force that into the canon.

I disagree. Just because some games have subpar narrative, doesn't mean every single game should perceive that as a standard. Games are rapidly evolving as a storytelling medium. As the largest indie developer in the world, Riot Games is expected to evolve on every front in order to maintain its reputation.

I'm sure you can imagine him having other, less vague, motivations instead. An actual invasion would be far more interesting than his one-way trip to join the spectacle.

There is nothing vague about his motivations. Hecarim is there to serve as an official representative of the Shadow Isles (thus forcing the Institute to recognize them as their own faction) and convey the Ruined King's will.

And I really don't see how a generic undead invasion, something that's been done so much that it's become a bad joke within the video game industry, is somehow more interesting than a scheming undead faction who use politics and subterfuge to advance their cause.

It does not, frankly. He was confined exclusively to the League of Legends. Not many opportunities for city-razing happening in there.

His lore concludes with "Woe betides the day when Cho'Gath grows weary of the League". Not to mention that the way it's worded indicates that Cho'Gath is likely not even within the Institute, but wandering somewhere around the world and using the Void-tainted magic of Icathia to sometimes pervert summoning magic so that it summons him to the Fields instead of whatever champion they intended. He's essentially a rogue agent.

I'm arguing that the new direction is a good one for storytelling. Champion stories will be developing narratives instead of them just participating in endless, stale repetition.

You have yet to show any of the "endless stale repetition". In fact, the examples you brought up so far all indicate that there was a clear narrative progression within the League's universe, including events that you claim aren't possible because of the Institute of War's presence.

Solideus1 votes

You put words in my mouth and you seem to believe in a fair bit of conjecture.

Arguing semantics about the Invasion was not my intention, I was merely saying that this kind of conflict couldn't happen again if they both had answered to the Institute. Most of the major conflicts, events and interesting changes in the world happened before the League. After that all we got was champions walking in and being presented like pro wrestlers or something. Now they don't have to write around a bunch of structural limitations like the Institute.

Games are rapidly evolving as a storytelling medium.

I agree, I did not try to imply the opposite. I was referring to the narrative value of a match in League of Legends; a 5v5 game on the Summoner's Rift. If anything the new lore direction in LoL proves the merit of storytelling in games.

A scheming undead faction who use politics and subterfuge to advance their cause.

That sounds like a good story, but It would be a bummer if it was limited to the Fields of justice.

And Cho'Gath... you make slightly unjustified leaps of reasoning behind his bio, among other things. He hasn't been involved in anything yet and the phrasing is merely to add drama. Fan-interpretations are cool but you shouldn't present it as hard facts.

DG Ashabel4 votes

You put words in my mouth and you seem to believe in a fair bit of conjecture.

What conjecture? Half of your statements are rewriting established lore.

Arguing semantics about the Invasion was not my intention, I was merely saying that this kind of conflict couldn't happen again if they both had answered to the Institute.

As an outright world-shattering conflict, no. As guerrilla warfare and political confrontations, yes. We have yet to see any evidence that the Institute barges in on affairs outside their own. They sure didn't say anything when Sejuani was ransacking villages in Freljord, neither do they say a word about regular rampages performed by other champions.

For that matter, I said "no" there but that doesn't mean that Noxus couldn't use the Institute being weakened by the Kalamanda conspiracy as an excuse to launch another invasion.

Most of the major conflicts, events and interesting changes in the world happened before the League. After that all we got was champions walking in and being presented like pro wrestlers or something. Now they don't have to write around a bunch of structural limitations like the Institute.

Can you actually name all those interesting events and changes? Because all of the detailed armed conflicts and wars spelled out by the lore actually happened after the Institute's formation. The only things we know about wars from before that is the generic Hollywood fantasy movie trailer. "ONCE UPON A TIME, THERE WAS WAR...!"

That sounds like a good story, but It would be a bummer if it was limited to the Fields of justice.

It doesn't have to be. Hell, it wasn't particularly limited to the Fields before either. Mordekaiser was confirmed to be another agent of the Ruined King, and we know he's been up to something sinister in Zaun, Demacia and Noxus. There was plentiful foundation to build on.

And Cho'Gath... you make slightly unjustified leaps of reasoning behind his bio, among other things. He hasn't been involved in anything yet and the phrasing is merely to add drama. Fan-interpretations are cool but you shouldn't present it as hard facts.

His bio outright states the following things:

"Even now, something dark stirs in Icathia, perverting the summoning rituals of the League to allow the presence of Cho'Gath."

"Worse yet, the creature is intelligent, perhaps greatly so, making most wonder how such a monster could be contained. Fortunately, the power of the League's summoning has confined Cho'Gath's presence exclusively to the League of Legends."

"Woe betides the day when Cho'Gath grows weary of the League."

So no, there is no indication that he's outright confined. In fact, it reads more like he's still in the Void and uses summoning rituals to sneak onto the Fields for short bouts of time. That opens up more narrative opportunities, if anything. Why not stage Cho'Gath's VU as the day he finally manages to pervert the summoning rituals as a way to escape from the Void and to Runeterra?

Solideus1 votes

You keep accusing me of lying instead of justifying why the Institute was so important. I argue that all the interesting things you have brought up are as possible, if not more so, without the Institute. It's just such a massive hurdle to write around when you could just get rid of it and open up more possibilities. The Champions are what makes the game good; the Institute just wasn't worth keeping.

Imagine if the Warcraft universe was dictated by a similar organization. That wouldn't be an improvement to the story, even if it could justify some gameplay and force all-star team-ups at a whim.

Diahane3 votes

You keep accusing me of lying instead of justifying why the Institute was so important. I argue that all the interesting things you have brought up are as possible, if not more so, without the Institute. It's just such a massive hurdle to write around when you could just get rid of it and open up more possibilities. The Champions are what makes the game good; the Institute just wasn't worth keeping.

Imagine if the Warcraft universe was dictated by a similar organization. That wouldn't be an improvement to the story, even if it could justify some gameplay and force all-star team-ups at a whim.

You said it: it's the easiest way out. Is it the better considering a lot of people got pissed off by it and hate the decision? Is it good storytelling to rewrite the told parts of an ongoing story? I tell you this: I can't fathom any editor to ever want an author to publish a sequel to a previous known book in which he arbitrarily and suddenly changes the core of the setting in a part so vital that it actually gave the title to the book. That would be completely nonsensical! Hey, let's buy the third book of the Lord of the Rings, let's see how all this wraps up in the end! Wai... there's no ring reference anywhere anymore, what the... they retconned it?! But they are still called the Fellowship of the Ring? But there is no ring! And what the heck are Frodo and Sam doing traveling to Mordor now? And Boromir? Why did he die?

This is pretty much the situation now. Taking back your words on what you already have narrated is just plain and outright bad storytelling.

Was it harder to work with the IoW around? Yes, it was a subtle plot device. Could we expect a team of professionals to just deal with it? Yes, we could.

Should we be getting engaged in any form with a story subject to changes vinculated to only the lore team's whims and based on no feedback? I'm trying to figure this out, but I can assure you that if League of Legends wasn't also a good videogame I would just have stormed off elsewhere to get any other kind of narrative, because they just proved to me they are awful at dealing with their own product and cannot be trusted to deliver a fluid, continous good story. They will just invoke retcon-hammers anytime they please because it's easy if necessary. If they get themselves into a corner with the story, I won't ever be like "who knows what will they do to get out of this situation, how interesting" I will most likely be like "oh, who cares, they're gonna retcon it anyway if it gets too tough".

Solideus1 votes

Have you ever read a comicbook? Those are respectable publications that get retconned and reimagined all the time. Those characters and stories are some of the most iconic ever. This can be the same thing.

The Institute was a device to tie the story to the game, but it sacrificed storytelling. Now they want to make the story able to stand on its own. There are a lot of juvenile anger, prepossessed arguments and unjustified hyperbole about this now, but I'm sure people will come around to it in time.

Diahane3 votes

Have you ever read a comicbook? Those are respectable publications that get retconned and reimagined all the time. Those characters and stories are some of the most iconic ever. This can be the same thing.

The Institute was a device to tie the story to the game, but it sacrificed storytelling. Now they want to make the story able to stand on its own. There are a lot of juvenile anger, prepossessed arguments and unjustified hyperbole about this now, but I'm sure people will come around to it in time.

I've got no juvenile anger, I'm kinda old for that - not really that much old, but no teenager here. Regarding comic books retcons, that's one of the reasons I don't dig any Marvel or DC comic. And that's the reason DCnU and the 52 thing stirred a fuss in their community, at least from what I understood from media such as webcomics referring to it. Seriously, it's hard for people to be happy being said that everything they invested their time in isn't actually a thing anymore. "You took time to read all those series to know what the story was like and all? Too bad, now that's all junk and you know NOTHING!" That's why I don't buy their comics, though I may enjoy their stories.

The IoW sacrificed storytelling in favor of the game you say? I do understand your opinion and do agree with you, but it's no random thing that a poll on the forums showed 60% and more of people saying they don't like the new lore. Evidently, people don't agree with it and see it not as so restrictive. Besides, what's the point of having the story stand on its own and untying it from the game? It's supposed to be the story of the League of Legends game! I'm here because of the game. I'm here because of the story of a videogame. I'm not here because I bought a book about some standard fantasy setting. Videogames are a form of art. They're one of the media through which is possible to deliver a narrative. Saying it's too much hassle to have a lore tied to the game is a total failure from their part (it just means the lore department of a videogame doesn't know how to do narrative through videogames, which is disheartening) and I would not have ever engaged in all of this League thing if I knew there was no story. I just don't play games without a story. I wouldn't ever have supported them if I knew this when I started years ago. It's demeaning to videogames as an art and narrative medium for them to take the story out of it. It's the worse decision they could take in my opinion.

Diahane4 votes

They're kinda doing this with Factions. You may search for a user called CupcakeTraps to get info on it in the case you're interested.

The whole point is: they hurt a lot of us (more than 60% according to the poll). Then they come on the forums and say they did it for us. Thanks bros, but we didn't ask it and don't like it! They didn't ask the community nor they heard what we sayed when we complained: this is not how Riot works usually. Only the lore team has behaved this way. Why are we lore fans deserving of less confrontation and two-way dialogue than people concerned about how much damage does Lee-Sin do? It's all a conceptual thing. I can live on with them changing the story, the only things affected are my liver, my feelings, my enjoyment of their product and my trust in them and their brand. The latter of these should be dear to them, because are those things that made me a customer of theirs. Before of all this I happily purchased RPs for no reason. Seriously, I have a bunch of them sitting there, I don't have things to buy with them, I just wanted to support Riot because I love(d) them and thought the game rocked. I've always done this, for all this time I played. I bought skins back in Season one which were mere recolours because I liked Riot, not because of the service. And now what? Their lore team metaphorically goes pissing on my face and asks me to trust them that it's for my sake and interest. And they make up silly excuses to the counter-arguments of which they deign not to respond. They do not hear us complain, they don't act based on our feedback, but keep saying that feedback is important and that they do it for us. How? They are not even listening to what we like and would like to see! I even asked if it was a marketing strategy to get a broader audience because they know through surveys or something that more people would be engaged in the lore with the retcon changes. A rioter answered me:

Ooo boy. Nope. I can certainly tell you we're not driven by surveys and we don't try to capture a broader audience. We make content for you. But many of our decisions are in-fact quite controversial and polarizing. We take some risks. I'm sure that's no surprise :-) I know this may be hard to hear right now, but we are actually making choices that we feel will benefit players, champions and Runeterra long-term.

So he either lied about not doing it for the sake of a broader audience, or they don't listen to feedback, because from the boards and a poll on the old forum I am brought to the conclusion that most of us don't like the retcon! It's not a risk they have taken, it's way more, it's saying our opinion doesn't matter and that they know best what we like and will be liking. That's a bit arrogant from them. I think I know better what I personally like and the IoW was such a thing. This doesn't mean I won't eventually enjoy their new work, but this sets a dire precedent and I would have enjoyed a story with the IoW more. I'm just deluded, disappointed and disheartened by how a company I trusted (too naive I was in this) turned out acting just like the notorious EA (be it forever damned, that abomination). They've lost a whole lot of points with me. Their lore department at least. I may come to be happy they separated the game from the story, because if this is how the lore team rolls, then I better have a good game with no risks of them ruining it and more Riot-minded teams working on it. I will always be sad about how they missed such a big opportunity to have an amazing story in it though and I will surely value it less, because a game without a story is just a plain button-smasher-time-killer and I could use my time elsewhere on some rpg.

(Didn't quote you because of word limit, sorry)

DG Ashabel3 votes

Similarly to how you described Golden Age comics, the old lore in LoL was pretty shit. I won't miss it.

I said that the Golden Age comics were described as "golden" because they were considered to be infinitely superior to the extremely low-quality stuff pushed out in the 90's. That is why they're "golden" and 90's comics are "bronze".

What you basically said is "Label the old lore as the era of quality and the new lore as the era of garbage, then produce new content for the old lore while pretending the new doesn't exist."

Is English not your first language? Your reading comprehension is pretty bad. This isn't the first time you completely misunderstood what I said, plus there was the whole thing where your reading of the lore kept being opposite of what stories actually said.

DG Ashabel4 votes

Its so hard arguing with contrived arguments, hyperbolic whining, personal attacks and conjecture. You seem to misread my arguments as much as you accuse me of. I'm trying to add actual arguments to the conversation, not argue your leaps of reasoning about tiny irrelevant details in the lore, as you keep coming back to.

No, I'm pointing out that your arguments continuously ignore the actual context of things you bring up. You bring up comic books but you don't know what Golden Age means, you bring up events from League lore but you completely rewrite them into something that didn't happen, and you don't analyze lore from examples you bring up. You even say that the narrative games shouldn't be treated like narrative in books or movies, then compare League to books anyway.

Your entire arguments are a mess of self-contradictions, which is why I finally asked if English isn't your first language. That isn't a personal attack. I simply want to know if there's even a point at debating with you, because so far it looks like you don't understand what other people say.

The poll everyone keeps bringing up shows a small, very vocal minority of ~60 people. The ones that support the new direction wouldn't need to flock to the forums, so of course they aren't as well represented. I see why you would all cling to it but it's not a very actionable or representative number.

The poll was undertaken by 1500 people, which is likely the entire population of the forums. Can you prove that there is a large number of people outside the forums who enjoy the new lore? Because I actually can prove that a lot of people outside the forum either dislike it or are apathetic by simply linking to every gaming website that ran an article on the retcon.

You speak of the change as if it is an unprecedented unforgivable wrong, which is hyperbole, frankly.

Absolutely nobody in this thread spoke of change. What are you even talking about?

The new content they have produced is far more approachable and has an actual progression. The old lore was not much more than glorified fan-fiction and the Institute was a lazily written plot device. Go ahead and enjoy it for the nostalgia, but the quality and construction was crap. Removing the most contrived element of the lore seems like progress to me. The intrigue should be within the factions, not above them.

Can you actually provide any actual evidence of Institute inhibiting progression or that the intrigue was written above factions? Because all I need to counter-prove the first would be linking to the Journal of Justice, and all I'd need to counter-prove the second would be linking to the Noxian-Ionian conflict and Kalamanda conspiracy, both of which were factions plotting against each other and using the Institute to their own ends.

Cookiehime4 votes

Have you ever read a comicbook? Those are respectable publications that get retconned and reimagined all the time. Those characters and stories are some of the most iconic ever. This can be the same thing.

The Institute was a device to tie the story to the game, but it sacrificed storytelling. Now they want to make the story able to stand on its own. There are a lot of juvenile anger, prepossessed arguments and unjustified hyperbole about this now, but I'm sure people will come around to it in time.

Soli. I think many people may not mind retcons. I even enjoy certain re-imaginings of a comic. However, with LoL, everything is being retconned and there is no way for us to obtain what we had purchased or invested time in since the content is gone forever and becomes unavailable. Taking down the JoJ site, for example, was a very questionable move. Was is really necessary to destroy the site? How can we enjoy the content now?

When it comes to comics, if I liked the original version over the retconned one, I'd still be able to read it because it exists and is available. I can always go back and read the old version. I can't say that much for LoL though. I cannot go back and use the characters I purchased because I liked them if they are getting a huge retcon, both lore-wise and how they are characterized in game. I would not have minded an upward improvement in the quality of the writing to express what was meant to be said in a clearer, more understandable manner, but the ideas and content, even if they could have been better written, were still very enjoyable and had a place in the hearts of many.

Taking them all away and replacing them with different content leaves us bare-handed and makes it feel like we've been ripped off or scammed. Objective improvements include better models, splashes, voiceacting (those I've had absolutely no qualms with... voicework is still subjective though, especially if they change the tone). However, when it comes to lore and characterization, things get a bit more difficult. The stories of characters and their in-game dialogue shape their souls. Getting those wrong will leave you with a character with a different soul. That's why it is important to review everything carefully and get all the info about said character when updating them. It's a lot of work, and sometimes characters could have been misunderstood (heck, even if I'm a Malz fan, I could have gotten part of his character wrong), but reviewing who they used to be, listening to what they used to say in-game, can be helpful in getting them right. I do not wish to sound demeaning, but I can say that many players know their characters better than the current lore team. It's not necessarily their fault though. They may not have been exposed to information that the players had about their characters.

Perhaps that was not the intent of the art team to drastically change the characters. But we can safely say that failing to capture the essence of established characters is poor execution. Omitting details of their personality, changing what they symbolized, completely changing the events they've gone through that shaped who they were are leaves us with a different character.

Nothing stops the writers from fleshing out a poorly developed character like Jax. Who is he, really? What does he do? Those are things that could have been written without retconning the League because we have absolutely NO CLUE about him. Like, wth? Where does he come from? What IS he? Or Lee Sin. We got his past as a failed Summoner and he joined the League. Now what does he do when he's not fighting on the FoJ? Is he involved in another conflict back home? All the bios need to be rewritten and that's fine. But improving the quality of the writing to better express the ideas that are represented is what I would call an objective improvement.

tbc;

Diahane2 votes

Well, the Institute inhibited progression by virtue of being a restrictive element by design. It was a catch-all solution to any interesting problem you could come up with; that's why all we got was a gossip-magazine; the lore wasn't priority before. The JoJ was low quality and felt like little more than fan-fiction; that is why they closed it down. Any interesting plots moved towards everyone joining the league (Ionia and Freljord), at which point any events outside it's walls are severely restricted. Any motivations for champions had to be written to fit within pretty harsh limitations; No one dies, no wars, you have to do what the summoners say, etc. The faceless Institute's influence shouldn't outweigh the agency of every interesting characters in the world. The “corrupt” element to the Institute doesn't fix what makes it problematic, at all.

I'm going to hop in just to say that it's not true that anyone had to do what the summoners said in the sense that they were mere puppets. This is a common misconception I encountered in these days, but the JoJ clearly states things differently in its Mailbag of Justice section.

Volume 1, issue 7 goes as follows:

"I am a bit confused about the role of a summoner in the League's matches. I have heard from several sources that the summoner actually has full control of their champion during battle, and that the champions simply serve as ragdolls for the magicians to manipulate. Now, here in Piltover we are all big fans of Ezreal, or "The Prodigal Explorer " as many of us call him. However, the thought that our skillful champion may not actually be doing any of the fighting himself has upset a great deal of us. Can you shed some light on these concerning rumors?" -- Boush

Summoning is the most challenging of all magical disciplines. There is far more to it than simply relocating a being from one location to another. A summoner mentally and physically links with their summoned being (champions, as we call them), allowing for a fluid symbiosis. A champion is not a puppet of the summoner; instead, the champion is the executor of the will of the summoner. A champion is in full control of themselves, but they are fully aware of the importance and the necessity of the summoner’s will. A champion’s duty is to execute the will of a summoner with the utmost precision and execution.

Bear this in mind, Boush: a champion is never forced to be a part of a battle arena where their loyalties and beliefs are not considered. During matches where city-states are resolving disputes, a champion will never act against their own interests. Garen, for example, would never charge out of the brush at a fellow Demacian if the match were about resolving a dispute involving Demacia.

Plus there are other references in there which all come about the bond between champions and summoners being a symbiotical thing and the creation of a new being, fusion of the two individuals, whom exists as a new form of existence in the microcosm of the Fields of Justice. See issues 8, 11, 21 for this.

Besides, the limitation about no one dying was not a consequence of the IoW. Champions acted outside of it sometimes, as showed in the JoJ, like when Jarvan IV, Katarina and Talon all cooperated to unveil the IoW's secret involvement in setting up the Kalamanda incident. If peradventure an overzealous Garen put his nose in his liege's affairs and ended up clashing with either Katarina or Talon, the IoW couldn't prevent the eventual bloody and fatal outcome. It was not the IoW preventing the death of characters, it was the overall narrative strategy, which on this part was akind to that of many usual narrative media published in the form of a series. It's just the old "plot armor" of main characters one can find in books, comics (either western or mangas) and movies. The author can still kill the character, he/she just doesn't want to do so.

Cookiehime3 votes

His bio outright states the following things:

"Even now, something dark stirs in Icathia, perverting the summoning rituals of the League to allow the presence of Cho'Gath."

"Worse yet, the creature is intelligent, perhaps greatly so, making most wonder how such a monster could be contained. Fortunately, the power of the League's summoning has confined Cho'Gath's presence exclusively to the League of Legends."

"Woe betides the day when Cho'Gath grows weary of the League."

So no, there is no indication that he's outright confined. In fact, it reads more like he's still in the Void and uses summoning rituals to sneak onto the Fields for short bouts of time. That opens up more narrative opportunities, if anything. Why not stage Cho'Gath's VU as the day he finally manages to pervert the summoning rituals as a way to escape from the Void and to Runeterra?

Actually Philo, your comment made me realize something. I think Cho was among one of the voices of the Void who made Malzahar lose his mind. Maybe plenty of people would not come to that conclusion and it could be that I think that way because I was one of the few who read the story which described how he lost his sanity. However, I don't think Cho'Gath was the one who commanded Malzahar to corrupt the Summoners. I believe it was a more powerful being who's still stuck in the Void, awaiting to be summoned. That would explain why and how the League rituals were being corrupted to bring Cho and eventually Kog to Runeterra. The entity, who is still in the other dimension, ordered Malz to sway the Summoners with promises of power or forbidden knowledge of the Void, corrupting them so they would summon Cho'Gath and company.

Perhaps to clear all ambiguities, this line should have been worded this way:

"Fortunately", the power of the League's summoning has confined Cho'Gath's presence exclusively to the League of Legends.

"Woe betides the day when Cho'Gath grows weary of the League."

Malzahar is the passive kind of crazy and always gave me the impression that he looked exploitable, which would explain why the summoners thought he'd be a useful tool that would allow them to learn about the Void (and also why the Void could influence him very easily). He has some charisma. That's how he gathered followers from around Valoran (Also selling that "Prophet" mojo to gain people's trust). But, yeah, he looked exploitable, spineless and came off as unsuspecting. I think that has always been part of his nature, even before the Void got to him (my memory has possibly decayed, but that's the impression I got from reading that rare short story-- which I regretfully can no longer find). He's fairly obedient and subservient, using that image to fool people and Summoners alike, guided by that special entity from the Void. But still, many thought he was only up to shenanigans in the JoJ, so not everyone was fooled.

In-game quotes that support his passive character:

"At once", "Without question", "In due course", "It is in motion", etc.

I really hope they don't turn him into a crazy maniac. Not saying he's not crazy, but he's not manic like Jinx.

Since I won't be coming back to post... I hope Riot sees my feedback and takes it into account if they plan to give Malz a VU or something along those lines.

If he gets a 180, you shall feel my wrath and rue the day you retconned him out of existence!

Joking, joking... but that'd make me sad.

Sneak Dog4 votes

The institute does allow for Rengar/Jax/Ryze/old Trundle/Ahr/Sona/Shaco/Annie to be relevant with the only contrivance being the premise. With the institute, they could join a match for their own reasons (Someone I want to fight in that match? Lets join the opposing side). Now they're just background in the overall world and making them relevant would require a retcon that can go horribly wrong like Trundles or a new contrivance every single time Riot wants to tell a story about them that is significant for Valoran.

The institute blocked off certain stories, but also enabled others. I would've much preferred it to be hit by a nerfbat rather than removed, I like the kind of stories it enabled and the careful maneouvering it required from the other factions to be able to do what they want.

Now Demacia and Noxus just declare war on eachother, Freljord is at war, the void is planning an invasion, Shurima will probably take over everything south of the great barrier, the shadow isles will just attempt to overrun the mainland and it's all generic. One of these things happen in every other fantasy story. I don't care about a war between Noxus and Demacia, because why would I? Isn't it just another war between justice and strength?

Solideus1 votes

I think the institute was a bit too convenient and lazy plot device, but I can see how the types of stories it can enable would appeal to some. However, it was not a very conventional choice to the type of fantasy world league of legends is. That is more common for a high school drama in construction where characters are more or less forced into a platform where they have to interact.

The Lord of the Rings and Game of Thrones are more similar to the style usually associated with League of Legends flavor of fantasy storytelling. They contain many characters and I would consider most of those hold their own as interesting and relevant characters. They have every chance to interact and their interplay is more permanent and meaningful.

DG Ashabel5 votes

Except the part where The Lord of the Rings and The Song of Ice and Fire both revolve around institutions.

The entire plot of the Song revolves around the Iron Throne. The Throne is the symbol of power and authority, whoever holds it is the one in power, and one's competence as a politician largely depends on one's ability of working within the rules conveyed by the Throne. Characters do have their personal motivations and stories, but all of them happen within the Throne's shadow. That's why it's a game of thrones.

And within the Lord of the Rings, every major decision is decided by a council of various races. That is why Hobbits were considered insignificant until the council that formed the Fellowship; it was the first time that a Hobbit sat at the high council. And it's also why the story ends with the end of the Third Age and the beginning of the Fourth. The shift in Ages wasn't caused by the defeat of Sauron (since he's really just a remaining figment of a greater evil), it was because the responsibility of summoning and holding the Council was transferred from elves to humans.

So really, you've proven the opposite of what you were trying to prove there.

Solideus1 votes

I disagree.

The Iron throne isn't an institution above and outside the story, it is certainly not all-powerful and it actively takes part in conflicts along with the other "factions". It is very much *within *the conflicts, not above them. It is not a very compelling analogue to the Institute in this context.

I grant that LotR is a weaker example in some ways because it is less complex, but it is still very much serviceable. I assume the council you speak of is the Council of Elrond, but that was specifically called for to discuss the One Ring. Both in the trilogy and the Silmarillion the races are quite separate politically and certainly not ruled by a common multi-racial council. They are allies far less often than not.

The Third Age ended with the elves leaving for Valinor; there was no council involved.

DG Ashabel2 votes

The Iron Throne is the very crux of the plot. It's the symbol used to designate the family or person who currently holds power over the entire continent and whose decisions can overrule everyone else. That is why the original civil war that overthrew Clan Targaryen happened in the first place, because the person who stood above and beyond everyone else was also a madman. And it's why a major theme in the story is that ever since the Throne fell into the hands of mortals who only use it for their own ends (do remember that Targaryen were seen as god-kings due to their dragon blood), the world has become weak and corrupt.

The Iron Throne couldn't be more of a symbol of a corrupt ruling institution if it tried.

And how is your description of LotR's political layout different from the one in League? All city-states are separate politically and not ruled by a common council. However, just like the Council of Elrond was used to bring people together in times of extreme need, the Institute of War is used by Valoran to do the same.

The Third Age ended with elves leaving and humans becoming responsible for Middle-Earth, therefore the Fourth Age being sometimes called the Age of Man. The Council would still be held in times of need. It would simply be held by Aragorn and his descendants instead of Elrond.

Solideus1 votes

The Iron throne is central to the plot, yes. It just doesn't have a similar function to the Institute.

My point was the "LotR political layout" is similar to the factions of LoL, but there is no such council filling the role the Institute does. Elrond's council wan't a regular thing and it certainly didn't make political decisions.

DG Ashabel3 votes

Yes, the Iron Throne actually has more power than the Institute. Given that, you know, whoever sits on it is the ruler of the continent. In the meantime, Institute's political influence is mostly guidelines that boil down to "Whatever you do, please don't blow up half of Valoran again".

Organizing a massive military force and devising a strategy to destroy their opponent's source of power is a political decision. It's actually more political decisions made for other factions than the Institute made across its entire three years of canon.

Solideus1 votes

I don't agree with your interpretation. The key difference is enough though: in LoL the Institute was quite separate from everything else; in GoT everyone tries to get the throne for themselves, killing each other off in the process.

The council is, again, quite specific to the Ring-problem. I recommend you read/reread the LotR books and especially Silmarillion. They are quite good!

DG Ashabel4 votes

It's... not an interpretation. It's outright stated that the Institute was founded to research magic pollution in Valoran and prevent another Rune War, with the League initiative being founded to localize the damage. It's also not separate from everything else because while it's supposed to be an impartial organization, it proved to be prone to corruption. The entire Kalamanda conspiracy was building up to the fact that Swain was using the Institute to take over power in Noxus. Similarly, plenty of other champions used the publicity and income from it to achieve their own successes (such as Ashe's coronation).

Yes, the council was called to deal with the Ring. What happened during it was still a decision to create an organized force to combat Sauron, which is wartime politics. You can patronize me all you want, but the fact is that you're downright ignoring that events of LotR were set in motion by an organized multi-cultural institution, just like in League.

DG Ashabel3 votes

I don't subscribe to your rosy-eyed view of the Institutes narrative value; it was a lazy device with one or two slack attempts at drama or deph. It was more appropriate for fan fiction and was written as such.

That's not even an answer to anything I was saying, neither does it address the point of the debate; it's just a dismissive non-sequitur insult toward your opponent's arguments.

Your interpretations of the the Iron throne is just contrived to fit your argument, which isn't a very strong one in the first place. Your interpretation of LotR is just plain false. None of the works have the same weaknesses the Institute brought; a perpetual deus ex machina.

The Iron Throne being the symbol of a ruling institution isn't an interpretation, it's just what it bloody is. It's treated that way in the books. And you have yet to prove how the Council's events were not a continent-wide political decision, you've blatantly run away from the entire point of why Middle-Earth shifted toward the Fourth Age, and you have yet to show any evidence of Institute being used as a deus ex machina as well (given that it was used as a direct opposite so far).

I must say, for someone who loves to patronize others about his viewpoints, your arguments sure are built entirely on flippancy and borderline illiteracy.

Diahane2 votes

The Institute consisted of faceless summoners. I'd argue the key players in the story should be the Champions and not summoners. If the summoners were the main characters that would be another matter.

This is a most interesting point. One of the reasons of complaints is the different opinion on the matter. The lore team thinks the champions are what people cared and care about and the sole thing to matter for story development. This would be a good point if we were talking about starting a brand new product or a literature or comic-book series. You create characters and proceed to tell their stories having said stories revolving around them. This is pretty the basics in literature and in any good DM's way of conducting a D&D campaign. The problem with LoL lies in the fact that users were never told to be the Champions themselves, like it was the case, for instance, in Warcraft III when you played the campaign as Arthas & co. Users in LoL were told to be summoners who requested the aid of the champions to solve the political disputes of their world. There was a whole lot of building done around this concept. We are referred as summoners, the world's cup has summoners on it, the JoJ was a newspaper (a form which achieved a remarkable immersion in my opinion) in which we were treated as summoners, the system of Influence Points draws on that concept too and so on. We were, up until now, immersed in this world as those characters, the summoners from the IoW, not as the champions themselves. I never was Katarina, nor Riven, I was a summoner who earned enough respect to be allowed by them to summon and synchronize with them to fight a common cause in the FoJ. The retcon didn't simply erase the IoW, it erased our characters. LoL was a sort of great rpg for many of us and summoners were our characters. They erased them with the retcon, they retconned us. As you can imagine, people are more attached to aspects of themselves rather than fictionary characters. That's why imho it's a misstep their decision, they failed to recognize were our feelings and focus were. At least this is how it is for most of us lore-lovers forum-dwellers, I can't speak for other portions of the player-base, like those who don't care about lore. But if they don't care about lore and won't probably ever do, why change things for them and against the feelings of those who loved the lore? That is their mistake in community management that I often refer to.

brusque1 votes

This is interesting, thank for you for sharing it with me because I missed it.

Personally I am trying my best not to be biased against what you're presenting. In fact, a part of me feels the same way that you do. I want to think critically about stories, about things like Shurima. Do I think Shurima was perfect? Absolutely not. Are there things about Shurima that need improvement? Absolutely. Shurima was the first thing we got in a long, long time that was designed to put lore right in our faces, and for the people in this poll it didn't deliver. As a lover of the visual arts myself, I was just enthralled and giddy because I love this stuff.

But let's take a look, too, at what came after Shurima. Riot obviously listened to the feedback about Shurima because Sion's rework was a drastic improvement of showing (not telling, as in Shurima) the story. The content that is being produced in the new paradigm isn't getting worse. Can we at least agree on that?

Diahane3 votes

But let's take a look, too, at what came after Shurima. Riot obviously listened to the feedback about Shurima because Sion's rework was a drastic improvement of showing (not telling, as in Shurima) the story. The content that is being produced in the new paradigm isn't getting worse. Can we at least agree on that?

They worked on Sion for such a long time that it would be ridicolous if what they delivered was disappointing. And, to be honest, the Reborn things works out because of the lore basis it builds upon, that is to say Boram Darkwill's and his son's demises, both of which came about in the Kalamanda arc, which involved heavily the IoW. So a fraction of the interesting part comes from a retconned part of the lore which wouldn't have forbid them to do the Sion rework. So it's not really an indicator of the new direction of the lore, because it actually doesn't introduce anything of said new lore. At most, it does confuse things, because the Kalamanda arc without the IoW is pretty buggy.

Getting to Shurima, I was hyped too, because I'm easy to enthusiasm for this kind of things, but if we analyze it the content was at most "meh". We got three lines of story per character retconned and actually some of said retconned backgrounds were not even necessary for what they wanted to pull of. Plus, the story itself is rather trivial and buggy (where the heck were you Nasus? YOU HAD ONE JOB: GUARDING THE F***ING TOMB!), with use of Deus ex Machina - hello Azir coming out of nowhere because it was convenient! Seriously, resurrection magic on standby for centuries? Why didn't, say, Nasus try to get a descendant of Azir to proc that before? No one knew about it? There's a safety measure such as that and the most awesome guy in the realm, the ancient ascended doggy of awesome doesn't know? Was cooldown on Revive really that long? Might want to go check that again...

Besides, after failing at the Shurima event, we now know the reason the long stories aren't out is part because of a tech issue and part because they realized the Azir and Xerath ones could have been done better. Kudos to them for realizing, but shouldn't they have released the whole thing only when certain their work wasn't subpar? Did they really believe the Shurima event was that cool lore-wise? (I mean, graphically I can dig that, in part; actually, not that much because we had better videogames cutscenes back in Warcraft III - 2002, 2002 man, twelve years ago). They just expected us to totally buy it, even though it was a whole lot of dumbing down characters' stories. If this is the new lore paradigma direction, let's hope they are so slow at it that we get to see it in 2019, so we can enjoy this game a bit more before having them ridiculing their lore further.

To sum it up, Sion was a good job on their part, but it could be no less given the time they spent on it. Plus, it doesn't really have anything to do with the new lore direction, by this meaning the retcon of the setting doesn't affect it in any way, so this could have been an old lore event without any problem. The other only product of the lore team, Shurima, was the only to have a massive retcon touch in it via its characters' rewritten lores and it failed. So I don't feel really confident in saying that they're getting better and they have listened to feedback. Sion would have come out this way even without the Shurima feedback, the only reason his lore came out extended in the client is because of the tech issues, they said it themselves, so it's not a turn around on the in-client summarized bios only direction. Plus, it was probably almost already pretty much finished when the Shurima feedback came out.

DG Ashabel5 votes

Regarding Shurima and Reborn, I can't help but think back to one line said during the Azir Q&A.

"Gnar was late, but Shurima was delivered on time."

On time is a very vague statement. Was it delivered on time in terms that it was completed? I don't think so. The event's lore parts were in incredibly poor condition. The dialogue in videos was choppy and badly edited, while the characters' lore ended up being posted late. In the meantime, the delivery on the Sion lore has been smooth like clockwork.

So honestly, my theory is that "delivered on time" means that they managed to fulfill the deadline at the expense of low quality and unfinished lore. It's quite possible that Reborn spent more time in the cooking pot and was finished before Shurima, so posting it boiled down to simply putting up the website. We do know that the current direction for Sion was picked some time ago, since IronStylus referred to him as "the lost glory of Noxus" and "proto-Darius" some months ago.

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