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Orianna's existence ruins Viktor's story.

The Ecdysiast··20 votes·1,839 views

Link to the new Piltover stories: http://www.surrenderat20.net/2016/11/piltover-story-page.html#j1

While Viktor's story hasn't been revealed yet, Jayce's has. And with that, there are mentions of Viktor's ideology regarding machines and his intentions for the Glorious Evolution.

Viktor originally desired the progression of humanity past the inevitability of death due to the death of the flesh, and the discrimination caused by human emotions. To this end, his designs were to replace biological parts with mechanical ones that would not falter.

His creations after being shunned from Piltover were fully mechanical aside from the brains-- but they still followed his commands perfectly. If Viktor is as brilliant as the story claims, there's no reason he would make fully functioning automatons whose only resemblance to humans are the brains that are needlessly crammed into the metal husks. A robot without a human brain would work just fine.

But that's not the only issue. Not only is the control of these brain-filled robots against his stated ideology, but their existence is pointless since

#Piltover has the technology to create a fully functioning mechanical replacement brain that retains the original brain's memories.

Enter Orianna, who is composed entirely of mechanical parts. One would think that the brain would be the last possible part able to be replaced, but they instead state that her and her father were unable to replicate the heart. She eventually does replicate her heart and become fully robotic, meaning we'll most likely see a removal of the large wind-up gear attached to her back to coincide with the story, But also turning her into Viktor's ideal human in the process. (via the same kind of crystal used to power both Viktor's and Jayce's best machines)

Thus, Viktor's falling out with the scientific community of Pilltover is centered around a large plot inconsistency. If it's possible to turn the entirety of a human's body into a machine while retaining that person's memories-- AND scientists have ALREADY done so, There is absolutely no reason Viktor would have been shunned in the first place. Aside from maybe the fact that his "brilliant ideas" have already been done and perfected.

TL;DR: Viktor's new story makes no sense at all if you factor in the existence of the NEW Orianna.

Side notes:

  • It's a little dumb that they're just turning Jayce into an off-brand Tony Stark-ish sort of jerk.
  • Who has the other glove?
  • Where do Heimerschlonger and Blitzcrank fit into this?
  • What's going to happen when Skarner shows up to take away Jayce's crystal?

All these questions and more answered on the next episode of Dragonball Z.

34 Comments

Oglaf5 votes

Waaait. Orianna is a General Grievous kind of deal now? I always thought she was a Pinoccio kind of deal..!

LordGeovanni1 votes

Same here

GreenLore1 votes

Not really. I mean General Grievous still had some organic parts on his body(his eyes,some internal organs,etc.),but Orianna had EVERYTHING replaced. You could potentially take her organic parts and replicate the original Oriannas corpse with them.

Its more of a ship of theseus kind of deal now,because her existence begs the question: If every part of her was gradually replaced,then is she still the same person she was before?Or does she merely think that she is the same person? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ship_of_Theseus

Oglaf1 votes

{quoted}

Not really. I mean General Grievous still had some organic parts on his body(his eyes,some internal organs,etc.),but Orianna had EVERYTHING replaced. You could potentially take her organic parts and replicate the original Oriannas corpse with them.

Its more of a ship of theseus kind of deal now,because her existence begs the question: If every part of her was gradually replaced,then is she still the same person she was before?Or does she merely think that she is the same person? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ship_of_Theseus

She still got a human heart AFAIK.

GreenLore1 votes

No she doesn't.

It appears you haven't read the complete lore,as it is a major plot point that she replaces her heart herself and transplants it into her father.

Ulquiorra9953 votes

I assume that somehow there was some magic involved with Orianna. Sure, theoretically you could make a mechanical brain and fill it with original brain's memories - but that would just be creating a copy. It'd look and feel like a person whose memories those were in the first place to people who know them and themselves, but that person would still be dead. With Orianna, it's not just her memories which were transferred, that was old Orianna. Somehow her conciousness, or soul if you'd like was transferred.

And that simply is not something that can ever be done through science. Science strictly abides to the rules of physical world - and as a man of science, Viktor could not achieve that kind of mind transfer. As for the heart, there is a parallel between the two; in Orianna's story it is shown how an artificial heart requires an extremely powerful power source, like a crystal she used - most likely the same kind of crystal Viktor attempted to steal from Jayce.

So, while not being quite there with replicating the brain, Viktor most certainly is on the right track with heart; and as witnessed in Camille's lore, a heart like that essentially means immortality. An infinite power source for an augmented person. Again, Viktor is a man of science; why would he waste precious time and resources trying to devise something as impossible as a replacement brain when he can just make a power source which is able to sustain the original indefinitely?

The Ecdysiast1 votes

I see the point you're trying to make, but you're forgetting that ALL of their "science" is rooted it magic. They don't use electricity alone. Evem Viktor's and Jayce's creations run off of magical energy.

As a man of science, Viktor did in fact use a magical crystal to power his machines.

I'm sorry, but per the laws of science in the lore your point is moot. What I mean is that, because their "science" all relies on magic to function you're completely right that Orianna's brain transfer must have involved some sort of magic. But everything Viktor does with machines also functions on magic.

SkyMagpie2 votes

Why doesn't this have more comments and discussion, this is honestly my biggest issue when it comes to his lore.

Stars Shaper2 votes

What's going to happen when Skarner shows up to take away Jayce's crystal?

That's going to be interesting because Jayce can actually hear the crystal singing. A feat no other human seems to have.

The Ecdysiast3 votes

Jayce is a scorpion confirmed.

Skelenth1 votes

I don't really get why you're being downvoted, those are valid points.

However, I doubt Orianna turning full machine was a widely known fact, as they weren't really close to Piltover, and I can only assume nobody in Zaun except the Glorious Evolved would care whether you're a complete machine or just a heavy augmented person. They had to sell dolls to get back into upper class teritory after all. If they'd have known Orianna could replicate a human heart, or Revek could make an almost perfect cyborg, I think that'd be more than enough for him to get his founders back.

The Ecdysiast2 votes

Their shop was extremely popular before and after Orianna's sickness (People would go there for augments without medical need, which is the norm in Zaun but not in Piltover), and her brain was replaced before they went under-- since she did go to the theater with the mechanical brain.

Even if the only person who would care that someone is a complete machine is Viktor, that's the only person it needs to matter to. His reason for being evil is gone, whether the community embraces him or not.

And considering how popular there shop got once again in Zaun, Viktor would likely have heard of it if he resides there, and someone would have mentioned that the girl who worked there was completely metal.

HalfTangible1 votes

Lemme ask you something.

What will happen when Viktor and Orianna meet?

REALLY think about it for a moment.

Here's my take.

Orianna is essentially Viktor's dream human, with the slight problem that she still has human weaknesses (loneliness, for example), but that can be fixed in the next prototype. Every part of her is mechanical, and she has the knowledge to make more. Her evolution is complete, and she can help make more.

Viktor, on the other hand, wants to make more of Orianna. And her lore now is that of a lost little girl, looking for someone to connect with. Not only did Viktor start on the same path she walked, but he wants to help others on that path as well. He can show her the world, and make this one a place she belongs.

I think these two are being set up for a confrontation, potentially a partnership. It's similar to how Yasuo and Riven's lore sets up an eventual confrontation: this is GONNA happen, at some point; it has to. And when it does, something's gotta give.

The Ecdysiast2 votes

Yeah, you're right.

And the interaction would probably be very similar to a few already in the making. They're setting up a lot of these lately, what with Yasuo/Riven, Viktor/Orianna, Diana/Leona, Taliyah/Azir.

Basically just a bunch of hate relationships that when the two people meet will turn out to be fine and dandy. Though in Vik's case it'll be meeting Ori that fixes his craziness but not his relationship with Jayce.

Yasuo/Riven: When he finally finds her he may still want to kill her, but she's reformed. As a fellow swordsman he'd understand the meaning behind shattering her blade.

V/O is as you said.

Diana/Leona: Now they're both just good guys. A confrontation isn't even necessary since Leona now knows exactly why Diana did what she did.

Tayliah/Azir: Taliyah is rushing home to "save" her family from Azir's "tyrannical rule," but Azir is very strictly against slavery. Her people will be safer than they've ever been.

The Last Ballad2 votes

Its more like Taliah/Azir/Xerath, with a side of Nasus/Renekton... Just because Tali and Azir may make up, does not mean that the conflict is over. And for all we know, she will still be against him because he is claiming to rule over her family, regardless of how benevolent his aims are.

HalfTangible1 votes

Wotchu talkin bout?

Viktor/Orianna: I brought this one up because Orianna and Viktor have strong reasons to work together instead of as separate beings. It looks like it'd be a partnership - practically a romance story waiting to happen.

It could also be a confrontation but I will ship it until it's dead.

Diana/Leona: There's gotta be a reason why the Lunari were originally slaughtered. We don't know what it is, but they set up the act, there's gotta be a purpose behind it. We also know very little about Targon and its various Aspects (I had a theory that the Targonian Aspects are representative of various parts of their space empire that have entered into civil war).

Yasuo/Riven: As much as I want to ship these two like Fedex, I doubt it's going to work out that way. Riven probably did kill the elder, and if she did, then honor demands Yasuo punish her regardless of her attempts to reform, given that her attempts had nothing to do with the death of said elder. She can't get away with killing the elder even if she does regret it now, and we don't know that she does. If she didn't kill the elder, then... to be perfectly honest I'll be pissed because WHAT IS EVEN THE POINT

Taliyah/Azir: Putting aside that we don't know yet how Azir is going to behave as Emperor (the last slave he freed tried to kill him and damn near succeeded - and that's ignoring that the collateral was HIS ENTIRE EMPIRE), Taliyah's voice lines and backstory imply that she wants nothing to do with Azir even if he's not there to enslave them:

Wild eyed, she stood and stared, seeing the city anew. Revulsion washed over her. This wasn't a city reborn. It was an empty tomb risen from the sand. The last time Azir Azir had made promises to the people of Shurima, it had cost them their lives.

"I must find my family", she whispered.

And in her voice lines:

"Your people have moved on without you"

Some of these hint at partnerships, but others hint at direct confrontation, or both. It's not so cut and dry as you make it out to be.

The Ecdysiast2 votes

They imply that the reason the Lunari were slaughtered was because they were outnumbered, and there was no longer a need for the partnership. So the power-hungry Solari wanted to ensure they kept control.

Honor does not dictate that Yasuo kill Riven. If anything, he is bound by honor to kill himself. She is not at fault for killing a leader during wartime. That's just the way war goes. The blame lies solely on him for abandoning his post.

And whether she wants it or not, Taliyah and her people need Azir's strength and the strength of the other Ascended. They're almost literally on the Void's doorstep, and will surely be the first to see the conflict when it arises.

HalfTangible1 votes

Lunari and Solari: Uh, A, where does it even imply that, all we know is what Diana saw on those murals, and B, that seems like it'd be a pretty big confrontation

Yasuo and Riven: If that were the case Yasuo would have killed himself already. The entire reason he's on this quest is to bring justice upon the real killer of the elder. It's also implied (though not outright stated) that the elder wasn't a military combatant; as such, Yasuo is compelled to seek out the perpetrator (probably Riven)

Taliyah and Azir: Does Taliyah even know the Void exists? Shurima's people have survived without the Ascended for a long time. She says herself that her people have moved on without Azir.

The Ecdysiast1 votes

Leona's goal switches completely from wanting to kill Diana to just having something to tell her-- but Diana already knows so it's really a moot point.

Yasuo has just perverted what he thinks of honor. That started when he left his post. That act in itself was deserving of death. He's the villain here, trying to murder someone who has committed no crime. She didn't torture anyone or inflict undue pain. She killed a respected elder as part of a military campaign. If he had been at his post and killed her while guarding, then he would be in the right. But he's completely perverted what he's honor bound to do. The fact that three people tried and failed to kill him for his crimes. Even if he didn't kill the elder it would have been obvious he wouldn't-- and many would know he wasn't even there, is proof enough that what he's done deserves death, not vengeance. It's a loose plot point that they based the blame on the fact it "was a wind technique" when there are plenty of people who would know he wasn't present. And the technique used was not at all the kind they've seen him use for years. It was a completely different technique done with a completely different weapon.

Probably not. But whether they know of it or not, it won't be long at all before Malzahar comes waltzing in with hellish monsters at his back.

HalfTangible2 votes

Not really - Leona's goal was 'find and kill Diana', now it's 'find Diana'. We don't even know why she needs to find her (we can infer it probably has to do with the Void and/or Aurelion Sol, but it's not made clear)

"She killed a respected elder as part of a military campaign." An elder is not a general nor a military leader (i don't know if Ionia HAD a formal military, come to think of it) and the fact that Ionia was at war was not even considered in Yasuo's backstory.

"But he's completely perverted what he's honor bound to do." He's honor bound to prevent a criminal from getting away with their crime. This is stated outright in the story to be his sole motivation for NOT submitting to punishment as he deserved for abandoning his post: because that's not what the crime he was being punished for was.

"It's a loose plot point that they based the blame on the fact it "was a wind technique" when there are plenty of people who would know he wasn't present."

Who else would have known Yasuo had an alibi? The only people who would've seen how the elder died or the exact moment Yasuo left would have been the other bodyguards, who (if they existed) were probably all dead.

Moreover, that makes it even more suspicious!

When the elder was found, A) Yasuo was not there, and B) the elder was killed by a technique only one person in the world (as far as they're aware) knows - the guy who wasn't there anymore. They knew that this same person resented the position, was hot-tempered and eager to brawl.

The Ecdysiast2 votes

I've been upvoting your comments for the sound discussion, but the fact that Ionia was at war was the CORE of Yasuo's backstory. No war means no leaving his post to go fight in said war. And the fact that no, Ionia did not have a functioning military and it was instead run by Elders like the one he was guarding makes him a viable target of assassination. It may not have been known when he left, but it would certainly be known when he arrived.

And like I said, he most certainly was NOT killed by a technique that Yasuo knows. The people convicting him of this crime are the ones he has trained with for years, and would know his techniques nearly as well as he does. From the game, we can see Yasuo relies mainly on piercing strikes when close and literal tornadoes from afar. Not only is Riven's blade incapable of piercing strikes, but her ranged attacks give the appearance of slashes rather than tornadoes. If they can tell from the corpse that the technique specifically used wind, then they'd be able to tell that it used none of the techniques Yasuo knows.

Regardless of whether or not he struck the blow that killed the elder, he is responsible for the elder's death. There are no if's, and's, or but's about it. A guard who failed to guard is responsible for that failure. It's unrealistic to assume that the other members of his dojo who were sent to kill him, including his own brother, were so unaware of his personality that even they'd believe he would kill the elder for absolutely no reason. The more reasonable explanation is what I've just said. Especially if Ionia is meant to portray an Asian culture, then failing to guard would be treated the same as if he'd stabbed the man himself.

HalfTangible1 votes

Ionia's war is an event in Yasuo's backstory, not its core.

Dude, you're using rhetoric and real-world asian culture as a counter to things stated directly in the lore. Yasuo used wind techniques, the elder was killed with a wind technique. He's a master of said technique, and as he proved, better than anyone else in the dojo.

It may not have been known when he left, but it would certainly be known when he arrived.

A) Not necessarily. Yasuo doesn't strike me as the type to report in when he arrives in combat, and it's not like there's a formal military structure keeping track of him

B) This clears Yasuo how? He had plenty of time to kill any other bodyguards and the elder before arriving to fight Noxus (i presume) no matter when he arrived on the battlefield.

"Yasuo mainly uses piercing attacks" Not really. He slashes when he uses basic attacks, his third Q tornado thing, Last Breath, Wind Wall and when he uses his Q in combo with Sweeping Blade. He stabs with ONE ability; it's his most frequently used, but it's hardly a stretch to say that Yasuo would strike someone down with a slash.

It's unrealistic to assume that the other members of his dojo who were sent to kill him, including his own brother, were so unaware of his personality that even they'd believe he would kill the elder for absolutely no reason.

Except even his own brother stated that he was "a blade without a sheath" - basically, a wild man with no self-control. Yasuo was arrogant, proud and self-absorbed before the elder's death.

The Ecdysiast1 votes

No, again, you're wrong. The war was core to Yasuo BECOMING "the unforgiven." As I said before, if there were not a war, not only would he not need to guard anyone; he wouldn't have had a war to arrogantly rush off to fight in instead of guarding said elder. His experience in the war may not have been core to his personality, but it is a core element in his backstory.

"A wind technique," does not equate to, "Riven's extremely specific, very identifiable as different from Yasuo's attacks, Wind Slash."

And yes, while Yasuo may USE slashing basic attacks and slash to create a tornado, he has not a single slashing attack that uses the wind to slash. Yasuo REALLY doesn't use anything but piercing wind attacks. His ultimate only uses the wind to keep him aloft and his E uses the wind to propel himself-- neither uses the wind for the attack directly, while his stab does. It is entirely a stretch to use the given information to assume he would then use wind for an attack in such a different way-- ESPECIALLY since we know for a fact it was not him.

A blade without a sheath does not mean he cut down allies until they came after him. It never says he did. Arrogant, proud, and self-absorbed were the reasons for his leaving. These characteristics do not make him kill an old man for no reason. He may have been arrogant to leave his post, but Yone's supposed belief that Yasuo would kill the Elder goes against the notion that he knew Yasuo well at all.

It's a massive leap in logic to go from arrogance to senseless murder.

The only motive they could have pulled out their asses for him would be that he wanted to get rid of the old man and leave-- which they knew he wasn't stupid enough to do with a kind of technique that would give away that it was him. Arrogance doesn't mean stupidity.

The whole story is shambles as is, but to claim that Yasuo would kill Riven without hesitation despite her having already reformed and having ALL OF NOXUS against her for her own crimes is ignoring any explanation of his sense of honor.

Maybe if she had specifically used wind because she wanted to frame him, then he'd have a reason. But no. She didn't. He has twisted his morals and would see that when he encounters her.

HalfTangible1 votes

No, again, you're wrong. The war

Didn't read past this because I'm not interested in seeing you repeat yourself for the third time and continuing to ignore me while also belittling everything I say.

Also it has nothing to do with the point I was originally making anyway.

Buh-bye.

LordGeovanni1 votes

Personally i dont think it was a good move to make zuan part of piltover. now a story of rivaling counties is not a story of rivaling classes which in if zuan is the slums how do we have scienctists funded enough to function as scientests

The Last Ballad1 votes

There are rich and poor on each side of the grey, it is merely the ability to be aristocratic that divides the clans of Piltover and the chemborans of Zuan.

LordGeovanni1 votes

Poor Aristocrats... thats a new one for me

Arakadia1 votes

Maybe Kass has the other glove? I mean the original owner of the gem had horns, was a mage of shurima, and the gem allowed one to teleport short distances.

The Ecdysiast1 votes

Oh holy shit, you're probably on to something.

That would be a fantastic setup for the needed Kassadin rework.

Arakadia1 votes

Would make sense that there's a Void lore update. The lore is lacking, much of it's champions' lore is outdated. And there have been some hints like Aurelion Sol's color text. And Riot has been releasing champions/reworking champions with their lore updates.

The Last Ballad1 votes

Keep in mind, there is no timeline for these stories. For all we know, Camille's family discovered the crystals, then Jayce/Vick's stories, then Orianna/Camille's transformations. Camille's grandmother discovered the crystals, and she is 80 "currently"(in time of her color text). Her aging stopped around the time of her implant, so she got it ~30-40... You get the picture.

Meep Man1 votes

Yeah I don't get it either. I guess they just hate Russian accents.

The Ecdysiast1 votes

Always gotta make Russia the bad guy even though they helped a shitton with Hitler.

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