Who Needs A Map? We do.

Ryugi Kazamaru·9/30/2015, 9:34:50 AM·103 votes·8,825 views

We really need an updated Runeterra Map.

{So much so I've even tried my hand at making one }

I know there's a thread about this already, and I posted in it. But what I need to say addresses a somewhat different side to that argument. People commented in the other thread that Jaredan hadn't responded to it, and instead we got Bioluminescence, who is still an awesome person, don't get me wrong, but she doesn't work with Narrative, and hasn't had much to say about any map-making things since the work on the Shurima Map last year, and even then she couldn't say anything because the higher-ups shushed her.

This is more about this quote from Jaredan, 3 Months ago in Cupcake Trap's thread about lore.

{quoted}

We haven't fully fleshed out certain aspects of Valoran and we also haven't told enough stories to reduce the chance that a definitive map would be restrictive. We would be having place define story rather than the other way round. We were very close to releasing a world map that looked so detailed it would have locked us into a definition of the world before we had started properly exploring it.

Before the "well, a good writer would know how to work with restrictions," argument, this isn't just about the writing, it's about a number of teams, various designs and other things that will have a dramatic impact on the final overall look of Valoran and beyond. Those things aren't ready yet, and putting out a world map that we might have to change rather soon would be problematic.

We will be releasing the map over time through various artifacts, as seen in the Shurima and Harrowing examples, but we're creating a world built from story and character, we didn't want that defined in a way that could quickly feel arbitrary.

What we can gleam from this post is that Riot literally had, or has, an almost fully-developed world map set up and ready to rock and roll, and then decided not to share it with the community at large because "it would have been too restrictive to our storytelling and we might have to change it."

I can understand the argument about having to change something so incredibly soon due to whatever events they have planned, but what can we gleam from what we DO have? What do we get from the Shuriman Tablet Map? That it's old and worn? That it's symbolic and doesn't give much geographical knowledge other than the location of Targon, the City of Shurima, and the surrounding mountain ranges? It gives us nothing of significant meaning other than adding an artifact of the world that we can't decipher because we lack any and all real clues as to what the heck those landmarks are, because we don't have a map.

Last year's Harrowing Map was an interesting start, but even that doesn't give us that much information. There's nothing concrete other than the Shadow Isles and the Blue Flame Islands. There's no sign of any coast of the main continent anywhere to get a bearing on where they're located, and the only thing it seems to suggest is that Runeterra isn't flat, is indeed round, and that you can easily sail to the Shadow Isles from Bilgewater or Ionia (supposedly) due to them all being islands near each other. So at least that much is confirmed. Small victories. But where is the mainland? What's the travel time like? We don't know, because we don't have a map.

Burning Tides only offered up more confusion, geographically, anyway. The Serpentine River, which used to be in the northwest corner of Valoran, as per the old and outdated map (which still has Targon listed as Gargantuan, and showed the river flowing backward because how do rivers work?), apparently now touches Bilgewater, or exits the mainland near Bilgewater, and is also near Bandle City due to Tahm Kench's knowledge and relationship with all of the yordles. And yet Quinn's journal of her chasing down an assassin, which technically took place post retcon, even though it was never outwardly stated it was, clearly shows a map of Demacia and the Serpentine River and her dealing with "Golden Crossing." ( And Valoran now apparently has Twelve Seas. That's great! We know where 2 of them are, maybe. Where are the other Ten? )

So does the Serpentine River literally cut the upper half of Valoran in half somehow? Is Noxus actually surrounded by a river delta or swamp or marsh like the ONLY legitimate image we have of it to date seems to suggest (it was daft to build a castle in a swamp, but they did it anyway)? And what about the dozens of other locations that are mentioned only once in lore and never elaborated upon in any meaningful way (Kaladoun, Howling Marsh, Voodoo Lands, Tempest Flats, etc etc etc)?

Those are clearly representations of "story defining place" and yet they were never elaborated upon outside of a single champion's biography. You have stated canonically in Gangplank's new lore that there are TWELVE SEAS. Why? Because it sounded cool? That was something that you apparently were trying to get away from. Now you have to design a map with twelve separate Seas on it when you used to have two (Guardian's Sea and Conqueror's Sea - obviously tied to Demacia/Noxus respectively). If you never lock it down you will never have a map and nothing will ever be definitive or concrete, ever, and no one will know where anything is. But as it stands now, nothing is certain on our side of the fence, and we don't know where anything is, again, because we don't have a map.

Runeterra has evolved greatly since the release of that old map, clearly. Names and lore and the places themselves have changed. Even if you look at it as an old world nonsense map that was just meant to show basic locations, it's still completely out of date and gives no real sense of scale or scope, especially in this new environment where the Narrative/Foundations Team are growing a very big Intellectual Property for future storytelling. But it DID give everyone a sense of belonging, which it is now sorely lacking thanks to recent developments over the last few years.

Even if Burning Tides was amazing, and don't get me wrong, it was, and I loved it for everything it DID do, we still have no more idea exactly WHERE Bilgewater really is in the world than we did years ago, and thanks to the updated lore, we have even less of an idea where it sits in relationship to any other part of Valoran outside of Ionia and the Shadow Isles than we did years ago, because, once more, we don't have a map.

You have a sizable community of people who world build, who like to craft stories, but without a map to use for such things, all of their work and their world is just as ambiguous and meaningless as the one you're trying so much to grow and develop. They're trying to tell bigger, grander stories without a map, no guideline to the world, and that is almost impossibly hard. Even new players and creative minds, who want to know these things, have to rely on something that is completely outdated because you have offered them absolutely nothing new to inform them. They don't know where anything is, or where anything or anyone is in relation to one another. They don't have a map.

But, as far as you've told us, you're all completely satisfied giving us tiny breadcrumbs when we need and want at least a slice of the _loaf _ you all get to keep to yourselves. And it's a loaf you've told us you have, and aren't willing to share with us who are starving for anything more substantial than what you've been tossing our way. At least let us have a bigger peek into the fog of war on the Rift, rather than keeping all of us in a perpetual Nocturne ult because you guys haven't finished the textures on the Howling Abyss.

You don't have to show us your entire hand, but at least let us see one of your cards, rather than a sidelong glance at a corner of a card through a cloudy glass.

49 Comments

Sneak Dog9/30/2015, 10:31:53 AM24 votes

Right now the new lore is structureless. Chaotic. The separate stories seem truely separate, as if they could be in any generic fantasy world and there's no reason why they are in Runeterra.

Adding a map would add some structure. Some sense of these stories being in Runeterra, rather than in some undefined fantasy world.

Still wouldn't get me interested, but it would be a good base for a new player to orientate with.

Ryugi Kazamaru9/30/2015, 9:28:37 PM7 votes

I'm not out to call out Jaredan or even put him down. I'm sure the dude does the best he can with what he has, and is acting in a way he, and the rest of Narrative, think is best for the continued development of their story and their world. I can't fault them for trying to act in the best interest of the story and its development, but how often has history and its stories been decided by terrain or location? And how many places on that old map still have yet to get any love or development in a meaningful way?

I look at that old and busted map and see nothing but potential for new stories and places, especially when coupled with this New Lore universe. And yet Jaredan's comment seems to suggest that, somehow, the complex and detailed map that they drew up didn't have enough variety for their needs or was too clustered? As a storyteller and writer, I just find that difficult to believe. I'm not saying Jaredan is lying to us, or that he's trying to pull the wool over our eyes, but that argument just seems to fall flat to me.

For example, I've been running a heavily homebrewed D&D/Pathfinder campaign set in Runeterra for over a year and a half now. And never have my players ever found a lack of places to go or things to explore, even using the old and busted map as a base.

They explored the Freljord in all it's vast frozen tundra and fertile southern lands. They visited Rakelstake and the Winter's Claw, they fought in a tournament against Sejuani's soldiers, feasted with Braum, fought a battle over the Howling Abyss, saw visions of the future and heard tales from the past from Anivia, and they could have done tons more. Quite literally an entire campaign worth of stories and places could exist in there, but the map was deemed too concrete and restrictive for storytelling?

They visited Ionia and the Placidium. They explored a forgotten temple from the "Warring Kingdoms Era" to gain their cleric her powers back. They traveled to Bard Mountain to seek guidance, and played music and danced with Meeps before catching the attention of Bard himself. They've crossed paths with almost every major Ionian champion. They fought a lost Noxian Battalion that had been swallowed by a magical storm in the Conquerer's Sea years before, and thought the Ionian Invasion was still going on. But the map was too final for telling new stories?

They spent time in Piltover, attending a technology fair in the process. They stayed at a marvelously advanced hextech hotel, with robotic service staff, and fine dining. They were attacked by Jinx and helped defend the city from attack. They participated in an airship race with Zaun and won in the most spectacular high-speed finish and crash imaginable. And yet the map was too limiting?

In Demacia they stopped necromancers from defiling the "Tomb of Fallen Heroes" and creating an army of dead Demacian warriors. They earned the favor of Prince Jarvan for their meddling in "Demacian internal affairs" and saving a valued landmark. They helped stop a drought in a Demacian village because of an angry water spirit that had been hurt by rampant magical energies from past wars. They uncovered a plot to dismantle the kingdom by the Black Rose that extended to the highest reaches of Demacian society itself, and involved perfect brainwashing, and granted them public notoriety.

In Noxus they stopped a Shadow Isles spirit from reaping the souls of the people of the slums. They uncovered an underground slave-trading market that shipped people to Zaun for experimentation, and sought to dismantle it. They started a clinic for the sick and poor, run by an old Noxian field medic, and a few volunteers from an Ionian temple.

And right now, they're headed to Bilgewater for the second time, set to uncover sunken treasure and go bounty-hunting for some quick money, before they take on a legendary and truly terrifying witch from Demacia's past who was armed with Rune Magic, which only 5 mythical heroic knights could stand against...with one of those knights, the strongest of them all, resurrected and corrupted to fight for her.

I've done all of that within the busted confines of the old map, sticking to only the concrete locations, and telling new stories within them. I've created concepts for the world that I haven't seen mentioned anywhere else, and places and history that mesh with the universe we know and love and expand on it in really interesting ways. And yet when I see a comment about how a more detailed map would only serve to limit your creativity, I can't help but feel you're wrong.

If I, a lowly fan on the outside with no such detailed map, can come up with and tell such stories and add to the universe in new ways, surely you all can do the same with an even more detailed and fleshed out map. Restrictions are only as restricting as you allow them to be. I look at what I know of Runeterra's world and see absolutely nothing but potential for storytelling and fleshing out new places and the tales of the people and places within that world.

So, you'll forgive me if I can't understand your point of view, or your rationale for denying all of us a more complete picture of this world in which we play, and one which we love.

BetaDude409/30/2015, 9:16:02 PM6 votes

This is honestly what frustrates me the absolute most. Jaredan's quote on making a map just really, really infuriates me, only because not making a map isn't doing any favors for him.

I've been spending some of my time designing a mod (which I will not spoil, because #teaser) and a map of Valoran (and subsequently Runeterra entirely) is pretty much needed.

Jaredan's excuse, however, is that "a map would be too constricting for us".

Dude.

That is more Bolshevik than the entire Communist Party!

The current narrative's direction is basically "Super Smash Bros. + Grimm's Fairy Tales + Mystery", and really not much else. We hear about these characters in some weird limbo of "well they exist, but only in folklore, even though they're throwing meeps at you as we speak". Nothing really seems real. It's like they took "League of Legends", sliced the League right out of there, and now they're capitalizing and bolding the LEGENDS part. Everything is so disconnected from everything else. I would not be surprised if adding a map actually did hinder this direction, simply because there is so little of a concrete foundation with the new lore anyways.

The real people it hinders, though, are the people like me. The people who use maps for creative work outside of league, like fanfiction, modding, roleplaying, ect.

And if the lore team doesn't care to promote these aspects of fan-made storytelling, then the lore fans either walk away or completely isolate themselves away from whatever canon we have now (something which has already been happening since the retcon, like in Factions). When the lore is not talked about or cared about, that is when the lore for this game will truly die. And that is when I will stop playing, since nothing keeps me engaged anymore.

Pyrodinium9/30/2015, 9:16:31 PM3 votes

It seems to me (I may be wrong) that the premise of this post comes almost exclusively from a fanworks creator's perspective.

I mean, most of the things that your post criticizes would be at most trivia to the bulk of LoL's audience.

Did I misunderstood your message?

I think prioritizing delivery on the actual lore pieces instead of extraneous details is the right call on the part of Riot.

Note that when I say "extraneous" is not with the intention to label them as useless, but simply as not necessary for the execution of a certain task. For example, in the case of the Bilgewater/Shadow Isles map: Would drawing the coastline of the continent had achieved any particular goal? It would had locked the position and layout of the continent (which you noted you are Ok with not doing right away) without reaping a specific reward. It was just not that relevant to do so at that moment.

I mean, the time they would have used in discussing and iterating on that bit of cool but (at that moment) unnecessary lore tidbit was most likely best invested on the juicy parts of that event or the next one.

Jeddy0179/30/2015, 9:49:56 PM2 votes

I'm currently at work on my phone,so I can't say much.I'll just say this for now. Biolum is a she.

KING OF MASKS9/30/2015, 6:20:26 PM2 votes

Have to say, this is much more coherent and well-written than my thread. I wasn't aware of that particular Jaredan quote, and good Christ I didn't think it was possible for him to anger me any more than he already has. I'm sure he's the nicest person in the world, but sometimes the shit he says is just utterly infuriating. Something that would actually define their setting in a concrete way is considered "arbitrary" -- moreover, he implies that we should be satisfied with (even intrigued by) the Shurima and Harrowing maps, which tell us next to nothing. I swear, he seems intent on keeping the lore as vague and useless as possible.

Ryugi Kazamaru10/2/2015, 11:06:29 PM2 votes

HOLY CRAP GUYS - AN IDEA

BILGEWATER HAS TO BE PART OF A CENTRAL INLAND SEA!!

That sea gives Piltover access to the ocean, which it has in Jinx’s video. Zaun has to have access too, and is probably across from Piltover across the bay, which I didn’t put in because fuck it. Then, you have Bandle near Noxus, surrounded by the Sablestone Mountains for protection, and they’re allied with Demacia so Noxus doesn’t try shit. Noxus doesn’t like yordles in their territory, which gives some reason for them to be close.

The Serpentine River STARTS up north coming from meltwater from the Freljord, and trickles down through all of central Valoran, spilling into marshes or swampy areas if it can’t drain directly into the ocean, where it drains into groundwater instead, like the fields and marshes outside Demacia that we see in “A Twist of Fate”. Demacia has marshes, supposedly, like the old Kaladoun stuff. Noxus has a river delta of sorts near it, as per canon art, which I didn’t put in because fuck it. The river swings through a mountain pass through Yordle Land and into the sea/gulf/savior-of-my-sanity, and out into the fucking Blue Flame Islands and Archipelago, creating marshy, swampy, bayou areas.

With Bilgewater and the Blue Flame Islands there, the pirates can strike most shipping in Valoran with little trouble, and have access to deeper waters to hunt sea monsters. Noxus can go invade Ionia by sea. The Shadow Isles can invade Ionia and Bilgewater, and Bilgewater is the only real thing between them and most of Valoran. But they ALSO have a route to Demacia because fuck you maps loop okay?

Then you have the Great Barrier near the center with Targon standing tall, south is Shurima and everything that encompasses, followed by the Plague Jungles and the Kumungu, and HOLY FUCK IT WORKS. IT FUCKING WORKS!

WHY IS DOING THAT SO HARD RIOT? How is having something like THAT too much to ask!?

Now all you have to do is label the TEN OTHER SEAS YOU SUPPOSEDLY HAVE.

Ugh...

Jeddy01710/1/2015, 4:15:02 AM1 votes

We haven't fully fleshed out certain aspects of Valoran and we also haven't told enough stories to reduce the chance that a definitive map would be restrictive. We would be having place define story rather than the other way round. We were very close to releasing a world map that looked so detailed it would have locked us into a definition of the world before we had started properly exploring it.

........................................................

Before the "well, a good writer would know how to work with restrictions," argument, this isn't just about the writing, it's about a number of teams, various designs and other things that will have a dramatic impact on the final overall look of Valoran and beyond. Those things aren't ready yet, and putting out a world map that we might have to change rather soon would be problematic.

........................................................

We will be releasing the map over time through various artifacts, as seen in the Shurima and Harrowing examples, but we're creating a world built from story and character, we didn't want that defined in a way that could quickly feel arbitrary.

........................................................"sigh"

I'm sorry,but as a guy who likes world-building,I find this statement extremely infuriating & I can not bring myself to agree with this "cough" reasoning.

HalcyonDweller9/30/2015, 5:05:21 PM1 votes

YES, this would be really great!

Dengeden10/2/2015, 5:12:19 PM1 votes

The way you stated it strongly implies that the stories we've gotten contradict a coherent map. Best case scenario: the writers aren't using the map as their basis. At all.

Warning: Tangent! From a lore stand point, creating a map from a Runeterran's standpoint would be so - freaking - difficult. The rune wars are still a thing, right? Who'd think to draw a map when they still remember mages changing the fabric of reality? Individuals like Nami and Syndra and mages in general could change the landscape to fit their desires. Lux can create illusions. You could even argue TahmKench meets you in his own separate dimension (and who knows where all the voidborn reside with the League gone). Is anything objective taking that into consideration?

Ryugi Kazamaru10/3/2015, 9:50:15 AM1 votes

To be really fair here, my point wasn't that Riot was incapable of creating a map for us. They clearly have the capability.

My issue was with them not releasing it, at least in some significant way, to give us an idea of where everything is.

That terrible 10-15 minute doodle abortion drove me absolutely insane trying to consider placement for everything. What you don't see is the outline I tried to draw for nearly an hour before I resorted to that experimental doodle. Then, when I figured that Riot would probably keep very few things sacred, and it was unlikely that the big round blob of a landmass would stay canon, it came to me that if Bilgewater and the Blue Flame Archipelago was in an inland sea of sorts, they'd have connections to almost every major power on Valoran.

And if that was the case, they could easily interact with the ones they've canonically been mentioned to deal with (Ionia in the Invasion, Noxus with GP stealing Swain's ship, troubling Bandle City's shipping, plus TF and Graves hitting Piltover's Vault, and his prison time in Zaun). For it to work reasonably, they'd all have to be close by, and Bilgewater being the central nexus of activity to some degree works well. Plus, if it had stayed where it used to be, out in the middle of the ocean, they'd have very little interactions with the other areas, simply due to separation. And I couldn't see Riot exiling them like that.

It isn't perfect, since I accidentally flip-flopped the Plague Jungles and the Kumungu in my haste, and Bandle City is a little far from the Kumungu, where Teemo gathers his shrooms. But most of that map makes sense based on what we know, including Shurima being flanked by mountains of some kind, and Summoner's Rift apparently being located between the Ironspike Mountains and the Freljord, and on the banks of the Serpentine River.

Either way, since I posted that thing on Tumblr, a bunch of people have already talked about how, until something better comes along, they might consider it canon for their worldbuilding purposes. But it's no replacement for a true canon map. And no level of me messing around in Photoshop will change that. We need, and want, something more substantial than that.

Ryugi Kazamaru10/3/2015, 8:53:53 PM1 votes

Honestly, I think I'd have to look at the Mississippi River to get an idea for how the Serpentine River would work. There are tons and tons of little feeding streams and smaller tributaries that flow into the Mississippi to make it what it is. So, it's possible there is one river called "The Serpentine River" but it is fed from many different sources throughout Valoran.

The only problem is we've only ever heard of the Serpentine River, and until we get anything more, it's been mentioned all over the place as being "the river". Were I breaking from canon, I'd probably drop more rivers into the map, but since I'm trying to stick to what we know, that puts me in a rough spot.

Mister Sunglow10/4/2015, 1:01:15 PM1 votes

We should get a map that is Demacia VS Noxus kinda thing. Two different castles and you can enter each of them. Then there could be an objective inside each castle (kinda like a nexus) or maybe something to steal (capture the flag???) and BOOM a new map that ties in with the lore to make a fun experience for League of Legends players.

Ryugi Kazamaru10/4/2015, 8:48:30 PM1 votes

Maybe.

Still, I'd like an updated world map so I know where those two are, first.

Ryugi Kazamaru10/8/2015, 4:18:13 AM1 votes

Here is what I've made based off of my original doodle.

That took me 10 hours today. So much for a day off. It's still not even finished yet.

Ryugi Kazamaru10/12/2015, 4:09:18 AM1 votes

Also, in case anyone cared, I've made a finalized version of my attempt at a map.

Link is HERE.

Hopefully this will encourage Riot to do more toward getting us a viable representation of Runeterra.

TheI3igDaddy10/12/2015, 4:32:05 AM1 votes

That's a fantastic map. Upvote for you my good man.

Tesla Effect10/13/2015, 2:31:01 AM1 votes

Serpentine River is in the Blue Flames Archipelago now.

Malicious Fury9/30/2015, 9:08:11 PM1 votes

They can be like WoW's Azeroth World. Make a world. Then add random areas in the ocean (Pandaria, Northrend) and in portals (Outland, Draenor). It's pretty simple. Just make every area in LoL on a world map, then areas that don't really fit can be through a portal or other method.

Scrimshäw9/30/2015, 6:59:29 PM1 votes

seriously dude, get a life. Blizzard makes worlds on an hourly basis, play fucking starcraft or diablo or hots if you want lore, league isn't made for that shit, the "lore team" probably doesn't even exist, and if it did, they're probably all 6 year olds.

Branimal9/30/2015, 6:45:27 PM1 votes

Why can't they just have a bunch of maps. It is kinda lame that we have such a limited arrangement. They could have season skins for summoners rift. They could have an alternate map for fives/threes. Honestly a little variety with visuals would go a long way. I love the game and will never stop playing, but I really would love some new aesthetic variety.

TenshouSNK12/7/2016, 1:25:52 PM1 votes

Except you didn't put Urtistan (Zilean's homeland) on that map.

Intentional? Or ignorance?