Who Needs A Map? We do.

Ryugi Kazamaru··103 votes·8,825 views

We really need an updated Runeterra Map.

{So much so I've even tried my hand at making one }

I know there's a thread about this already, and I posted in it. But what I need to say addresses a somewhat different side to that argument. People commented in the other thread that Jaredan hadn't responded to it, and instead we got Bioluminescence, who is still an awesome person, don't get me wrong, but she doesn't work with Narrative, and hasn't had much to say about any map-making things since the work on the Shurima Map last year, and even then she couldn't say anything because the higher-ups shushed her.

This is more about this quote from Jaredan, 3 Months ago in Cupcake Trap's thread about lore.

{quoted}

We haven't fully fleshed out certain aspects of Valoran and we also haven't told enough stories to reduce the chance that a definitive map would be restrictive. We would be having place define story rather than the other way round. We were very close to releasing a world map that looked so detailed it would have locked us into a definition of the world before we had started properly exploring it.

Before the "well, a good writer would know how to work with restrictions," argument, this isn't just about the writing, it's about a number of teams, various designs and other things that will have a dramatic impact on the final overall look of Valoran and beyond. Those things aren't ready yet, and putting out a world map that we might have to change rather soon would be problematic.

We will be releasing the map over time through various artifacts, as seen in the Shurima and Harrowing examples, but we're creating a world built from story and character, we didn't want that defined in a way that could quickly feel arbitrary.

What we can gleam from this post is that Riot literally had, or has, an almost fully-developed world map set up and ready to rock and roll, and then decided not to share it with the community at large because "it would have been too restrictive to our storytelling and we might have to change it."

I can understand the argument about having to change something so incredibly soon due to whatever events they have planned, but what can we gleam from what we DO have? What do we get from the Shuriman Tablet Map? That it's old and worn? That it's symbolic and doesn't give much geographical knowledge other than the location of Targon, the City of Shurima, and the surrounding mountain ranges? It gives us nothing of significant meaning other than adding an artifact of the world that we can't decipher because we lack any and all real clues as to what the heck those landmarks are, because we don't have a map.

Last year's Harrowing Map was an interesting start, but even that doesn't give us that much information. There's nothing concrete other than the Shadow Isles and the Blue Flame Islands. There's no sign of any coast of the main continent anywhere to get a bearing on where they're located, and the only thing it seems to suggest is that Runeterra isn't flat, is indeed round, and that you can easily sail to the Shadow Isles from Bilgewater or Ionia (supposedly) due to them all being islands near each other. So at least that much is confirmed. Small victories. But where is the mainland? What's the travel time like? We don't know, because we don't have a map.

Burning Tides only offered up more confusion, geographically, anyway. The Serpentine River, which used to be in the northwest corner of Valoran, as per the old and outdated map (which still has Targon listed as Gargantuan, and showed the river flowing backward because how do rivers work?), apparently now touches Bilgewater, or exits the mainland near Bilgewater, and is also near Bandle City due to Tahm Kench's knowledge and relationship with all of the yordles. And yet Quinn's journal of her chasing down an assassin, which technically took place post retcon, even though it was never outwardly stated it was, clearly shows a map of Demacia and the Serpentine River and her dealing with "Golden Crossing." ( And Valoran now apparently has Twelve Seas. That's great! We know where 2 of them are, maybe. Where are the other Ten? )

So does the Serpentine River literally cut the upper half of Valoran in half somehow? Is Noxus actually surrounded by a river delta or swamp or marsh like the ONLY legitimate image we have of it to date seems to suggest (it was daft to build a castle in a swamp, but they did it anyway)? And what about the dozens of other locations that are mentioned only once in lore and never elaborated upon in any meaningful way (Kaladoun, Howling Marsh, Voodoo Lands, Tempest Flats, etc etc etc)?

Those are clearly representations of "story defining place" and yet they were never elaborated upon outside of a single champion's biography. You have stated canonically in Gangplank's new lore that there are TWELVE SEAS. Why? Because it sounded cool? That was something that you apparently were trying to get away from. Now you have to design a map with twelve separate Seas on it when you used to have two (Guardian's Sea and Conqueror's Sea - obviously tied to Demacia/Noxus respectively). If you never lock it down you will never have a map and nothing will ever be definitive or concrete, ever, and no one will know where anything is. But as it stands now, nothing is certain on our side of the fence, and we don't know where anything is, again, because we don't have a map.

Runeterra has evolved greatly since the release of that old map, clearly. Names and lore and the places themselves have changed. Even if you look at it as an old world nonsense map that was just meant to show basic locations, it's still completely out of date and gives no real sense of scale or scope, especially in this new environment where the Narrative/Foundations Team are growing a very big Intellectual Property for future storytelling. But it DID give everyone a sense of belonging, which it is now sorely lacking thanks to recent developments over the last few years.

Even if Burning Tides was amazing, and don't get me wrong, it was, and I loved it for everything it DID do, we still have no more idea exactly WHERE Bilgewater really is in the world than we did years ago, and thanks to the updated lore, we have even less of an idea where it sits in relationship to any other part of Valoran outside of Ionia and the Shadow Isles than we did years ago, because, once more, we don't have a map.

You have a sizable community of people who world build, who like to craft stories, but without a map to use for such things, all of their work and their world is just as ambiguous and meaningless as the one you're trying so much to grow and develop. They're trying to tell bigger, grander stories without a map, no guideline to the world, and that is almost impossibly hard. Even new players and creative minds, who want to know these things, have to rely on something that is completely outdated because you have offered them absolutely nothing new to inform them. They don't know where anything is, or where anything or anyone is in relation to one another. They don't have a map.

But, as far as you've told us, you're all completely satisfied giving us tiny breadcrumbs when we need and want at least a slice of the _loaf _ you all get to keep to yourselves. And it's a loaf you've told us you have, and aren't willing to share with us who are starving for anything more substantial than what you've been tossing our way. At least let us have a bigger peek into the fog of war on the Rift, rather than keeping all of us in a perpetual Nocturne ult because you guys haven't finished the textures on the Howling Abyss.

You don't have to show us your entire hand, but at least let us see one of your cards, rather than a sidelong glance at a corner of a card through a cloudy glass.

49 Comments

Sneak Dog24 votes

Right now the new lore is structureless. Chaotic. The separate stories seem truely separate, as if they could be in any generic fantasy world and there's no reason why they are in Runeterra.

Adding a map would add some structure. Some sense of these stories being in Runeterra, rather than in some undefined fantasy world.

Still wouldn't get me interested, but it would be a good base for a new player to orientate with.

IsmokeOregano1 votes

what is 'the new lore'? last i knew it was still summoners but i know that got changed, i just don't know how. Can u explain or provide a link?

Sneak Dog1 votes

All the lore from the Freljord event onwards in release date is the new lore, as confirmed in this developer blog: http://euw.leagueoflegends.com/en/creative-spotlight/dev-blog-exploring-runeterra

All older lore is part of the old lore. Supposedly any old lore that works without summoners is still canon, but in practise that's only the case about half of the time.

Ryugi Kazamaru7 votes

I'm not out to call out Jaredan or even put him down. I'm sure the dude does the best he can with what he has, and is acting in a way he, and the rest of Narrative, think is best for the continued development of their story and their world. I can't fault them for trying to act in the best interest of the story and its development, but how often has history and its stories been decided by terrain or location? And how many places on that old map still have yet to get any love or development in a meaningful way?

I look at that old and busted map and see nothing but potential for new stories and places, especially when coupled with this New Lore universe. And yet Jaredan's comment seems to suggest that, somehow, the complex and detailed map that they drew up didn't have enough variety for their needs or was too clustered? As a storyteller and writer, I just find that difficult to believe. I'm not saying Jaredan is lying to us, or that he's trying to pull the wool over our eyes, but that argument just seems to fall flat to me.

For example, I've been running a heavily homebrewed D&D/Pathfinder campaign set in Runeterra for over a year and a half now. And never have my players ever found a lack of places to go or things to explore, even using the old and busted map as a base.

They explored the Freljord in all it's vast frozen tundra and fertile southern lands. They visited Rakelstake and the Winter's Claw, they fought in a tournament against Sejuani's soldiers, feasted with Braum, fought a battle over the Howling Abyss, saw visions of the future and heard tales from the past from Anivia, and they could have done tons more. Quite literally an entire campaign worth of stories and places could exist in there, but the map was deemed too concrete and restrictive for storytelling?

They visited Ionia and the Placidium. They explored a forgotten temple from the "Warring Kingdoms Era" to gain their cleric her powers back. They traveled to Bard Mountain to seek guidance, and played music and danced with Meeps before catching the attention of Bard himself. They've crossed paths with almost every major Ionian champion. They fought a lost Noxian Battalion that had been swallowed by a magical storm in the Conquerer's Sea years before, and thought the Ionian Invasion was still going on. But the map was too final for telling new stories?

They spent time in Piltover, attending a technology fair in the process. They stayed at a marvelously advanced hextech hotel, with robotic service staff, and fine dining. They were attacked by Jinx and helped defend the city from attack. They participated in an airship race with Zaun and won in the most spectacular high-speed finish and crash imaginable. And yet the map was too limiting?

In Demacia they stopped necromancers from defiling the "Tomb of Fallen Heroes" and creating an army of dead Demacian warriors. They earned the favor of Prince Jarvan for their meddling in "Demacian internal affairs" and saving a valued landmark. They helped stop a drought in a Demacian village because of an angry water spirit that had been hurt by rampant magical energies from past wars. They uncovered a plot to dismantle the kingdom by the Black Rose that extended to the highest reaches of Demacian society itself, and involved perfect brainwashing, and granted them public notoriety.

In Noxus they stopped a Shadow Isles spirit from reaping the souls of the people of the slums. They uncovered an underground slave-trading market that shipped people to Zaun for experimentation, and sought to dismantle it. They started a clinic for the sick and poor, run by an old Noxian field medic, and a few volunteers from an Ionian temple.

And right now, they're headed to Bilgewater for the second time, set to uncover sunken treasure and go bounty-hunting for some quick money, before they take on a legendary and truly terrifying witch from Demacia's past who was armed with Rune Magic, which only 5 mythical heroic knights could stand against...with one of those knights, the strongest of them all, resurrected and corrupted to fight for her.

I've done all of that within the busted confines of the old map, sticking to only the concrete locations, and telling new stories within them. I've created concepts for the world that I haven't seen mentioned anywhere else, and places and history that mesh with the universe we know and love and expand on it in really interesting ways. And yet when I see a comment about how a more detailed map would only serve to limit your creativity, I can't help but feel you're wrong.

If I, a lowly fan on the outside with no such detailed map, can come up with and tell such stories and add to the universe in new ways, surely you all can do the same with an even more detailed and fleshed out map. Restrictions are only as restricting as you allow them to be. I look at what I know of Runeterra's world and see absolutely nothing but potential for storytelling and fleshing out new places and the tales of the people and places within that world.

So, you'll forgive me if I can't understand your point of view, or your rationale for denying all of us a more complete picture of this world in which we play, and one which we love.

KING OF MASKS1 votes

Don't suppose you have room for another player in that campaign of yours? :P

Ryugi Kazamaru1 votes

[{quoted}](name=KING OF MASKS,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=R0r5pZHa,comment-id=00080000,timestamp=2015-09-30T21:34:35.434+0000)

Don't suppose you have room for another player in that campaign of yours? :P

You know, I get that a lot. Every time I mention it, people come out of the woodwork asking if I have room.

Eventually, once this first playthrough is done, I'll post the homebrew modifications I came up with and release them to the community at large so they can enjoy it for themselves. It's a little powerful, and because of that I've had to change how HP scales and some other things, and it takes a lot of work on the DM to keep things challenging and fun, but that's what homebrew is about.

KING OF MASKS1 votes

It was a mostly rhetorical question; I wouldn't expect you to accept randies off the Internet. It sounds fantastic, though.

Ryugi Kazamaru2 votes

[{quoted}](name=KING OF MASKS,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=R0r5pZHa,comment-id=0008000000000000,timestamp=2015-09-30T21:57:59.402+0000)

It was a mostly rhetorical question; I wouldn't expect you to accept randies off the Internet. It sounds fantastic, though.

Considering that it's an online campaign played on Roll20 and Skype, and when I started it I knew virtually nothing about the players, you'd be surprised. Our friendships have become a thing BECAUSE of the campaign. It's really neat.

1FM Squiwel1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Ryugi Kazamaru,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=R0r5pZHa,comment-id=00080000000000000000,timestamp=2015-09-30T22:00:08.922+0000)

Considering that it's an online campaign played on Roll20 and Skype, and when I started it I knew virtually nothing about the players, you'd be surprised. Our friendships have become a thing BECAUSE of the campaign. It's really neat.

To be honest. I myself is also working on a D&D type of game with campaigns and what not. I'm currently working with 2 friends of mine, since the original project I was in with 5 other people, two of which are then in my current project. We couldn't cooperate because of one persons ideals. But Never mind that. I only came to also ask the same as KING OF MASKS did. I love D&D, never played it but I love the idea. I love lore/stories, have written well over 100 now, each of varying size. To be a part of something like your campaigns would be very fun, I doubt I would be bored. The way you explained your campaigns seemed like they would be awesome to take part in. But I understand if I'm just a random and this seems weird. But I'm all abroad if you accept me. Only that we maybe should have other forms of communication than this forum post :P Even if this post is like one year old now.

Pyrodinium2 votes

As a GM, you have a lot of freedom to shape the world in any way you like, and to come up with things on the fly as needed.

Also, delivering to a few people whose likes and dislikes you probably know well is not the same as building a world for an audience of millions of people across multiple continents.

Ryugi Kazamaru1 votes

{quoted}

As a GM, you have a lot of freedom to shape the world in any way you like, and to come up with things on the fly as needed.

Also, delivering to a few people whose likes and dislikes you probably know well is not the same as building a world for an audience of millions of people across multiple continents.

As the designers of the entire world, Narrative and Foundations have more freedom than I do in what stories they can create, and directions they can choose to follow.

The writing process is the same no matter how big or small your audience might be. You may have to make changes depending on specific social norms of your audience, like the removal of Graves' cigar and Karthus unable to be a walking skeleton because of cultural or local laws in some countries, but, largely, whether you are writing a story for 10 people or 10,000, the techniques and checks and balances are very, very similar.

The only thing that changes, really, is scope, and delivery.

I may be the master of the universe as the DM of my campaign, but nothing I say or do is unchecked by the very same rules I'm certain Riot tries to follow when creating their own new content and stories. It's about telling the story, building the world, making everything cool and memorable and meaningful, and every detail is polished and created lovingly.

So, while there are certainly different considerations, there are a lot of things that are the same.

Pyrodinium5 votes

While I think I understand and agree with your main point (There are parts of the creative process that just can't be glossed over), I strongly disagree with your assessment that Riot's Narrative and Foundations teams have at least as much, if not even more freedom than a single person working on a Runeterra fanwork.

There are a lot of factors that limit the freedom of professional creative work in comparison to amateur, some of which are only tangentially related to actual writing and worldbuilding. Among them are:

Creative Control As a lone creator, you get to decide what flies and what doesn't. While working for a company, however, you will almost never have complete control on the creative direction you will take. Following directives, reaching for long-term goals and so on naturally limit your artistic freedom.

Teamwork The lore for an IP like Runeterra is just too big for a single creative to handle, no matter how badass they might be. Working as a team requires a different mindset and additional abilities that crafting on your own. A team too small will have trouble to meet goals, while a team too big will be difficult to coordinate effectively.

Unification You can't just execute on the good ideas you have. Any new content has to feel cohesive with both the existing material and anything your teammates are working on. This aspect in particular may be really hard to work with, as you could create something that you think it's awesome, just to find that doesn't mesh well with the rest of the lore, and there is little you can do but relinquish it.

Audience Expectations Lore fans (and the audience of LoL in general) will always have greater expectations than anything you can create (there are many of us, with varied and very often contradictory wishes). Knowing the expectations of a fanbase as massive as that of LoL is very difficult, but also very necessary, as not only informs you what you shouldn't change (Trundle relaunch, why?) but also what you can change (Quick example: Twisted Fate's new lore was a success, as it seems that most of the gambler's fans like this new Lovable Rogue TF way more than the old Treacherous Scumbag TF).

Universality While you need to be vigilant of cultural constraints and sensibilities when designing for an international audience, that by no means the only thing you need to watch for. Often you need to create something universal, that can resonate with the players, regardless of where they live (Example: While loved in NA, the Ahnold impersonation of the pre-rework Sion just flew over the heads of the players in various regions).

Iteration and Feedback And so much. Anything done professionally nowadays is subject to long rounds of exploration, ideation, peer review, feedback and approval. While working alone, the process tends to be more informal (you have an editor and maybe some beta readers).

Interdisciplinarity Things become even more complex when people from other disciplines (Art, Gameplay, etc) work alongside you, which in Riot Games seems to be all the time.

Scheduling You most likely can't just work on the thing that appeals to you most at the moment. There are upcoming events, long-term plans, opportunity costs and so on.

Broad Appeal Related to universality. When you are creating alone, one tends to default to things that sound good to oneself. League of Legends, however, is a product that tries to appeal to the widest possible audience. A single person, with their personal tastes, opinions and biases would be hard-pressed to deliver on this front.

Efficiency With something like LoL, you also need to keep an eye on the future, and use the least possible amount of resources on a single task. If you use too many story devices or thematic elements on a single thing, you might find yourself rehashing previously seen material earlier than it is convenient.

Legal Issues You have to keep an eye on not leaning too close to other existing IPs. You need to keep the restricted information under the blanket. Most likely you can't look on fanworks for inspiration or to get a handle on what ideas are well regarded by the community.

Budget Issues You have only so many resources available to you. If you want both a world map of Runeterra, but also need conceptual art for an upcoming event, what do you think will be prioritized?

Ryugi Kazamaru1 votes

{quoted}

As a lone creator...,

I'll try to respond to these, but before I do, I would also like to cite that I speak from a realm of some experience, as I have a Bachelors Degree in English and Creative Writing. But, to save time, I'm going to generalize and condense many of your statements first, as they share a common thread.

The Narrative/Foundation teams work as a team. They have the issues and benefits of working as a team, and that is, in most cases, unless you're "League Factions" or "League of Fighters" or "LaLaLa Demacia", different from being a standalone fanwork person. However, my argument wasn't that a team and an individual are the same or deal with exactly the same issues. That would be illogical.

What I'm saying is that, for the most part, the people most effected by the lack of a map are people who are not your "typical" fanwork people, often generalized as writing fanfics about romance between their favorite champions, or making their self-insert OCs or whatnot. Those sorts of people care less about the universe as it already exists, and are more interested using that medium to tell their own story, even if they make drastic changes along the way with little regard to canon information.

The people most hurt by this are the people who want to tie their work directly into canon information as much as possible, but lack the required materials to do so. So, they're forced to try and theorize how things would work based on clues left behind by Riot, and this can be an exhaustive process, especially because they ARE a single person. That's what I mean by "Riot has more freedom than I do." If I'm working within canon, or trying to, I can only go so far before things get out of line, that's where "headcanon" comes from, and Riot has internal "headcanon" as well. It's a big part of world-building, or even character portrayal.

Anyway, let's see...

{quoted}

Audience Expectations Lore fans (and the audience of LoL in general) will always have greater expectations than anything you can create (there are many of us, with varied and very often contradictory wishes). Knowing the expectations of a fanbase as massive as that of LoL is very difficult, but also very necessary, as not only informs you what you shouldn't change (Trundle relaunch, why?) but also what you can change (Quick example: Twisted Fate's new lore was a success, as it seems that most of the gambler's fans like this new Lovable Rogue TF way more than the old Treacherous Scumbag TF).

There are some parallels between this and writing in the realm of world-building. You, if you're like me, or even a grand majority of serious world-builders, freak out over every little detail. You search through every bit of text you can find, turn it into lines and letters, and search for any tidbit of information as to why something is the way it is. You theorycraft, you run it through checklists, you see how it matches up compared to the universe's expectations or tech level, or level of realism within the world, and everything else. And, in the end, it's possible your audience is still going to hate it, becasue they don't agree with all of your hard work. This isn't something unique only to Riot's side of the equation.

Universality While you need to be vigilant of cultural constraints and sensibilities when designing for an international audience, that by no means the only thing you need to watch for. Often you need to create something universal, that can resonate with the players, regardless of where they live (Example: While loved in NA, the Ahnold impersonation of the pre-rework Sion just flew over the heads of the players in various regions).

Lots of fanworks are region-oriented, this much is true. But, as a writer, it's also your job, if you're approaching this in a somewhat professional manner, to be mindful of these sorts of things. Again, if you're writing your fanfiction for fun and just want to tell a story for the heck of it, this isn't how you typically approach things. This is more for the true writers and world-builders who have real training, working with this material on a level close to Riot's writers themselves, just with a lot less insider information. But, I'll admit, most fanfiction doesn't need to be universally accepted. Although some can be universally hated...

Iteration and Feedback And so much. Anything done professionally nowadays is subject to long rounds of exploration, ideation, peer review, feedback and approval. While working alone, the process tends to be more informal (you have an editor and maybe some beta readers).

Again, this depends on the level of your involvement with your material. Lots of people who world-build are doing this because they want a shot at working for Riot, and also genuinely love the stories and the world, or a specific character. My personal interest lies mostly with Riven, and, by extension, Noxus and the politics and complexities in that place. But, I like almost every area in general. Feedback and approval comes in many forms. And while this is certainly lessened in the fanfiction department, for lots of people, it's still a vital process, though not universal, as you said.

Interdisciplinarity Things become even more complex when people from other disciplines (Art, Gameplay, etc) work alongside you, which in Riot Games seems to be all the time.

This is also true enough, although, most people writing something don't have access to those kinds of resources at all. They are not a savant of writing, art, and gameplay. So, technically, this is an edge Riot has over your average writer or person trying to make a fanwork. It's a limitation rather than a boon for a fanwriter.

Scheduling You most likely can't just work on the thing that appeals to you most at the moment. There are upcoming events, long-term plans, opportunity costs and so on.

Every person working on a fan project will tell you how they wish they had more time for it. Rioters, at least, have the ability to work on a great number of things as a part of their jobs. Most of us creative folk don't have that kind of luxury. Again, that's arguably a boon that Riot has over the individual.

Broad Appeal Related to universality. When you are creating alone, one tends to default to things that sound good to oneself. League of Legends, however, is a product that tries to appeal to the widest possible audience. A single person, with their personal tastes, opinions and biases would be hard-pressed to deliver on this front.

This technically doesn't stop people from trying to appeal to a broad audience, regardless of whether or not they have one. But even still, Riot will never please everyone, or appeal to everyone, and no person doing fanfiction or fanart or any other kind of fanwork is going to be able to please or appeal to everyone either. This comes down to knowing your audience, and both an individual, and Riot as an entity, should have to keep this in mind. Admittedly, though, there's nothing requiring a fan to adhere to this.

Efficiency With something like LoL, you also need to keep an eye on the future, and use the least possible amount of resources on a single task. If you use too many story devices or thematic elements on a single thing, you might find yourself rehashing previously seen material earlier than it is convenient.

This isn't something unique to Riot's side either. Artists have "same-face syndrome" (as people have accused Zeronis of having) and run out of steam or direction, and writers write themselves into holes because they ran out of plot elements or aren't sure what to do next. This is something that aplies to both sides of the fence, and not just Riot, depending on the story or medium you're telling and using.

Legal Issues You have to keep an eye on not leaning too close to other existing IPs. You need to keep the restricted information under the blanket. Most likely you can't look on fanworks for inspiration or to get a handle on what ideas are well regarded by the community.

Fans have to deal with these issues too. While true legal action is less of a threat, it's still a significant concern for anyone taking things seriously, or if your work gets too ambitious. And, even if you DO try to limit exposure and be unique, someone has almost always done something similar before (Bard and Miyazaki's artwork, Kindred and Chiara Bautisa, Braum and Angus the Puncher, Talon and Assassin's Creed, Zed and Shredder/Lord Zedd). Even if it's unintentional, you still might slip up and cause issues you never intended or even knew about. Again, this isn't just a Riot thing.

Budget Issues You have only so many resources available to you. If you want both a world map of Runeterra, but also need conceptual art for an upcoming event, what do you think will be prioritized?

ESports. :D

Jokes aside, budget usually isn't a priority with most fanworks unless they are truly expansive. That much is true. But, Riot has stated several times that they have many teams working on things at the same time, and budget isn't as much of as concern as a lot of people seem to think. That said, a world map seems like it would be a large internal priority for consistent story, simply due to geographical limitations. And, in fact, the evidence to support that is Jaredan's post saying they HAD/HAVE such a map internally, but didn't release it.

The fact that they didn't release anything at all is what has upset a lot of people, and why this thread ultimately exists. But, again, the main point is that, even with their restrictions, Riot can do more than a solo person can, because they are bigger, have more information, and resources, even if they have to bend to some unique limitations.

All we're really asking for is that they throw us a bone or two to help us.

BetaDude406 votes

This is honestly what frustrates me the absolute most. Jaredan's quote on making a map just really, really infuriates me, only because not making a map isn't doing any favors for him.

I've been spending some of my time designing a mod (which I will not spoil, because #teaser) and a map of Valoran (and subsequently Runeterra entirely) is pretty much needed.

Jaredan's excuse, however, is that "a map would be too constricting for us".

Dude.

That is more Bolshevik than the entire Communist Party!

The current narrative's direction is basically "Super Smash Bros. + Grimm's Fairy Tales + Mystery", and really not much else. We hear about these characters in some weird limbo of "well they exist, but only in folklore, even though they're throwing meeps at you as we speak". Nothing really seems real. It's like they took "League of Legends", sliced the League right out of there, and now they're capitalizing and bolding the LEGENDS part. Everything is so disconnected from everything else. I would not be surprised if adding a map actually did hinder this direction, simply because there is so little of a concrete foundation with the new lore anyways.

The real people it hinders, though, are the people like me. The people who use maps for creative work outside of league, like fanfiction, modding, roleplaying, ect.

And if the lore team doesn't care to promote these aspects of fan-made storytelling, then the lore fans either walk away or completely isolate themselves away from whatever canon we have now (something which has already been happening since the retcon, like in Factions). When the lore is not talked about or cared about, that is when the lore for this game will truly die. And that is when I will stop playing, since nothing keeps me engaged anymore.

Pyrodinium2 votes

We fanwork creators aren't the only part of the lore fandom that matters.

The responsibility for any creative is to deliver not just for the most hardcore fans, but for the whole community.

BetaDude402 votes

Oh I am aware of that. Lore is for all to enjoy, not just us (us being content creators).

It's just that you know something's wrong when your own die-hard lore fans are rejecting the canon and forging their own paths. Breaking canon is fine, but flat-out ignoring it is a pretty bad sign for Jaredan.

Pyrodinium1 votes

Yeah, no.

People always do that. You can go to any fandom and see examples of that.

Pyrodinium3 votes

It seems to me (I may be wrong) that the premise of this post comes almost exclusively from a fanworks creator's perspective.

I mean, most of the things that your post criticizes would be at most trivia to the bulk of LoL's audience.

Did I misunderstood your message?

I think prioritizing delivery on the actual lore pieces instead of extraneous details is the right call on the part of Riot.

Note that when I say "extraneous" is not with the intention to label them as useless, but simply as not necessary for the execution of a certain task. For example, in the case of the Bilgewater/Shadow Isles map: Would drawing the coastline of the continent had achieved any particular goal? It would had locked the position and layout of the continent (which you noted you are Ok with not doing right away) without reaping a specific reward. It was just not that relevant to do so at that moment.

I mean, the time they would have used in discussing and iterating on that bit of cool but (at that moment) unnecessary lore tidbit was most likely best invested on the juicy parts of that event or the next one.

KING OF MASKS2 votes

Have to say, this is much more coherent and well-written than my thread. I wasn't aware of that particular Jaredan quote, and good Christ I didn't think it was possible for him to anger me any more than he already has. I'm sure he's the nicest person in the world, but sometimes the shit he says is just utterly infuriating. Something that would actually define their setting in a concrete way is considered "arbitrary" -- moreover, he implies that we should be satisfied with (even intrigued by) the Shurima and Harrowing maps, which tell us next to nothing. I swear, he seems intent on keeping the lore as vague and useless as possible.

Jeddy0172 votes

I'm currently at work on my phone,so I can't say much.I'll just say this for now. Biolum is a she.

Ryugi Kazamaru1 votes

{quoted}

I'm currently at work on my phone,so I can't say much.I'll just say this for now. Biolum is a she.

Then I shall correct my post. Thank you, Sir or Madam.

Ryugi Kazamaru2 votes

HOLY CRAP GUYS - AN IDEA

BILGEWATER HAS TO BE PART OF A CENTRAL INLAND SEA!!

That sea gives Piltover access to the ocean, which it has in Jinx’s video. Zaun has to have access too, and is probably across from Piltover across the bay, which I didn’t put in because fuck it. Then, you have Bandle near Noxus, surrounded by the Sablestone Mountains for protection, and they’re allied with Demacia so Noxus doesn’t try shit. Noxus doesn’t like yordles in their territory, which gives some reason for them to be close.

The Serpentine River STARTS up north coming from meltwater from the Freljord, and trickles down through all of central Valoran, spilling into marshes or swampy areas if it can’t drain directly into the ocean, where it drains into groundwater instead, like the fields and marshes outside Demacia that we see in “A Twist of Fate”. Demacia has marshes, supposedly, like the old Kaladoun stuff. Noxus has a river delta of sorts near it, as per canon art, which I didn’t put in because fuck it. The river swings through a mountain pass through Yordle Land and into the sea/gulf/savior-of-my-sanity, and out into the fucking Blue Flame Islands and Archipelago, creating marshy, swampy, bayou areas.

With Bilgewater and the Blue Flame Islands there, the pirates can strike most shipping in Valoran with little trouble, and have access to deeper waters to hunt sea monsters. Noxus can go invade Ionia by sea. The Shadow Isles can invade Ionia and Bilgewater, and Bilgewater is the only real thing between them and most of Valoran. But they ALSO have a route to Demacia because fuck you maps loop okay?

Then you have the Great Barrier near the center with Targon standing tall, south is Shurima and everything that encompasses, followed by the Plague Jungles and the Kumungu, and HOLY FUCK IT WORKS. IT FUCKING WORKS!

WHY IS DOING THAT SO HARD RIOT? How is having something like THAT too much to ask!?

Now all you have to do is label the TEN OTHER SEAS YOU SUPPOSEDLY HAVE.

Ugh...

Ask the Herald1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Ryugi Kazamaru,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=R0r5pZHa,comment-id=000d,timestamp=2015-10-02T23:06:29.213+0000)

Mapping YAY

And here we have yet another excellent example of fans showing up Rito and proving how full of crap they really are.

KING OF MASKS2 votes

A little bird pointed out to me that in real life rivers don't normally branch quite that often; apparently it's a common mistake among fantasy authors who include maps in their books. You could say it's a magic river or whatever but that's a bit of a cop-out. A better solution in my opinion would be to simply retcon the Serpentine River's omnipresence, or possibly split it into two separate rivers.

In any case, I love the idea of Bilgewater being part of an inland sea like that; it makes it feel like it's sort of a bulwark against the Shadow Isles, and if it were to fall then the Harrowing would progress inland. Talk about stakes, amirite?? Vladimir

HalcyonDweller1 votes

YES, this would be really great!

Branimal1 votes

Why can't they just have a bunch of maps. It is kinda lame that we have such a limited arrangement. They could have season skins for summoners rift. They could have an alternate map for fives/threes. Honestly a little variety with visuals would go a long way. I love the game and will never stop playing, but I really would love some new aesthetic variety.

CubedJustice1 votes

This is not what is being talked about. They're talking about a world map. Where is Noxus? Where is Demacia? Where are the shadow isles?

Branimal1 votes

I understand that. However it is related and can be a good jumping point for them to introduce new maps to the game. They could have these different locations in various skinned fives maps, or something to that degree.

Scrimshäw1 votes

seriously dude, get a life. Blizzard makes worlds on an hourly basis, play fucking starcraft or diablo or hots if you want lore, league isn't made for that shit, the "lore team" probably doesn't even exist, and if it did, they're probably all 6 year olds.

Pyrodinium4 votes

Well, actually the "Lore Team" does not exist.

Lore is but one of the multiple things that the Narrative Team oversees, with Runeterra's worldbuilding falling under the purview of the Foundations Team.

So, there is not an actual Lore Team in Riot Games.

Scrimshäw1 votes

so what you're saying is.. people should stfu about lore? fine by me

Pyrodinium4 votes

Why do you come to this board if you don't care about lore?

:^)

Malicious Fury1 votes

They can be like WoW's Azeroth World. Make a world. Then add random areas in the ocean (Pandaria, Northrend) and in portals (Outland, Draenor). It's pretty simple. Just make every area in LoL on a world map, then areas that don't really fit can be through a portal or other method.

Jeddy0171 votes

We haven't fully fleshed out certain aspects of Valoran and we also haven't told enough stories to reduce the chance that a definitive map would be restrictive. We would be having place define story rather than the other way round. We were very close to releasing a world map that looked so detailed it would have locked us into a definition of the world before we had started properly exploring it.

........................................................

Before the "well, a good writer would know how to work with restrictions," argument, this isn't just about the writing, it's about a number of teams, various designs and other things that will have a dramatic impact on the final overall look of Valoran and beyond. Those things aren't ready yet, and putting out a world map that we might have to change rather soon would be problematic.

........................................................

We will be releasing the map over time through various artifacts, as seen in the Shurima and Harrowing examples, but we're creating a world built from story and character, we didn't want that defined in a way that could quickly feel arbitrary.

........................................................"sigh"

I'm sorry,but as a guy who likes world-building,I find this statement extremely infuriating & I can not bring myself to agree with this "cough" reasoning.

Pyrodinium1 votes

How's that? He basically says that they are still in the process of building the world, and don't want to commit to a defined map before adequately exploring all the regions/nations.

As a self-proclaimed worldbuilder: Would you draw a map without being sure of what are the needs of your world?

Ryugi Kazamaru1 votes

{quoted}

How's that? He basically says that they are still in the process of building the world, and don't want to commit to a defined map before adequately exploring all the regions/nations.

As a self-proclaimed worldbuilder: Would you draw a map without being sure of what are the needs of your world?

In answer to the "How's that" part of your post...

We were very close to releasing a world map that looked so detailed it would have locked us into a definition of the world before we had started properly exploring it.

And...

We will be releasing the map over time through various artifacts, as seen in the Shurima and Harrowing examples

Both of those are direct quotes from Jaredan's last reply. They most certainly have a map. If they didn't, they wouldn't be able to release the tiny crumbs we've gotten thusfar. And, they certainly have something internally, because of the Freljord Map that came out around the time of that event also. All the signs point to them having something much, much more significant than anything we currently have on our side of the fence.


In response to your question about world building, yes, I probably would if I had all the internal resources Riot has, and we do not. Rivalries are informed and built through interaction, and interactions are built through time and location. The history of mankind relied upon the form and shape of the land, the climate, the resources available to them to survive. It varied depending on competition, luck, or strategy.

History and stories and events are informed by the world around them. The stories themselves do not create the land. A map need not be fully detailed to the Nth degree either. Look at a map on Google Maps, or even Google Earth. You'll see continents, countries, states, provinces, territories, and whatever else shown in bold colors and lines, and depending on details, only the biggest and most prominent cities. But when you zoom in, you get names, places, roads, in ever-increasing detail, until all you see might be a single person, or a single building.

Having a map that outlines the locations of major places and their basic geography doesn't lock anyone into all but the most basic of things, because, as a worldbuilder, as a writer, you can always zoom in deeper as needed. A map of the United States showing the state boundaries, the terrain and geography, might have the names of cities and their locations, but the local geographical features, the history of that place, the people, none of that is captured in a map, unless it's truly earth-shattering, like a massive meteor crater or a rift in the crust of some kind.

Point being, releasing a basic, updated map, showing the locations of the important factions, the rough climate of different areas, the large geographic features like mountain ranges, oceans, seas, rivers, and islands, and where those all are in relationship to everything, would not infringe upon their creative capabilities to tell stories or breathe new life into geographical locations, like the Sai in Shurima for example, in a truly massive way, depending on how far they decided to zoom in.

Case in point...

This map of Skyrim shows the major cities, their territories, some roads connecting them, the major geographical features, and yet, at the same time, reveals absolutely nothing about the grand battles that are currently waging in that game's story. It tells you nothing about the people that live there, or their history. It doesn't tell you the climate, doesn't outline any of the ancient ruins, caves, or mysteries within the game. All it does is give you an idea of where things are. That's what a map does. It gives you your bearings, and gives you footing, and a sense of scale and scope.

The old and busted map did that, even if it was janky. It served its purpose, but even still, it had countless places that were never developed into anything substantial beyond a single mention here and there.

Realistically speaking, the only reason I believe we don't have a map is because they honestly don't think it matters at this point, either to them, or to us. They're perfectly happy to make huge claims like "There are TWELVE SEAS" and yet don't want to go "Well shit, now we have to make a map with Twelve Seas on it." They don't want a consistent world. They want to be able to say whatever they want, and not have to answer to a map, or geography, or to any kind of consistency. They just want to tell stories.

That kind of thinking lead to all of the places on the old map that were mentioned once, and never mentioned again, like the Voodoo Lands or the Howling Marsh, or Kaladoun. It lead to in-world mentions of things like "42nd Standard" in Riven's lore, which was literally only put in there because it "sounded cool" with no world-building to back it up. It lead to the mention of "The Temple of the Falcon" in Xerath's old lore, which was just a name given to some place that sounded important with no actual meaning behind it. And I wish I was making things like this up, or exaggerating, but I'm not. Almost all of that stuff was literally "Rule of Cool" and nonsense buzzwords added to make stuff sound more in-depth than it ever actually was.

But, Riot is trying to move away from that. Their descriptions of locations in the past few tidbits we HAVE gotten seem to suggest an internal continuity of some kind, especially Jaredan's posts about the location of the Serpentine River and Bilgewater somehow being next to one another, because it apparently moved or got bigger, or something else. But we lack any kind of context, and that's driving the communities that work with this stuff absolutely up the wall.

We're lost. Completely and totally without any solid direction.

Because we don't have that map.

Dengeden1 votes

The way you stated it strongly implies that the stories we've gotten contradict a coherent map. Best case scenario: the writers aren't using the map as their basis. At all.

Warning: Tangent! From a lore stand point, creating a map from a Runeterran's standpoint would be so - freaking - difficult. The rune wars are still a thing, right? Who'd think to draw a map when they still remember mages changing the fabric of reality? Individuals like Nami and Syndra and mages in general could change the landscape to fit their desires. Lux can create illusions. You could even argue TahmKench meets you in his own separate dimension (and who knows where all the voidborn reside with the League gone). Is anything objective taking that into consideration?

Ryugi Kazamaru1 votes

To be really fair here, my point wasn't that Riot was incapable of creating a map for us. They clearly have the capability.

My issue was with them not releasing it, at least in some significant way, to give us an idea of where everything is.

That terrible 10-15 minute doodle abortion drove me absolutely insane trying to consider placement for everything. What you don't see is the outline I tried to draw for nearly an hour before I resorted to that experimental doodle. Then, when I figured that Riot would probably keep very few things sacred, and it was unlikely that the big round blob of a landmass would stay canon, it came to me that if Bilgewater and the Blue Flame Archipelago was in an inland sea of sorts, they'd have connections to almost every major power on Valoran.

And if that was the case, they could easily interact with the ones they've canonically been mentioned to deal with (Ionia in the Invasion, Noxus with GP stealing Swain's ship, troubling Bandle City's shipping, plus TF and Graves hitting Piltover's Vault, and his prison time in Zaun). For it to work reasonably, they'd all have to be close by, and Bilgewater being the central nexus of activity to some degree works well. Plus, if it had stayed where it used to be, out in the middle of the ocean, they'd have very little interactions with the other areas, simply due to separation. And I couldn't see Riot exiling them like that.

It isn't perfect, since I accidentally flip-flopped the Plague Jungles and the Kumungu in my haste, and Bandle City is a little far from the Kumungu, where Teemo gathers his shrooms. But most of that map makes sense based on what we know, including Shurima being flanked by mountains of some kind, and Summoner's Rift apparently being located between the Ironspike Mountains and the Freljord, and on the banks of the Serpentine River.

Either way, since I posted that thing on Tumblr, a bunch of people have already talked about how, until something better comes along, they might consider it canon for their worldbuilding purposes. But it's no replacement for a true canon map. And no level of me messing around in Photoshop will change that. We need, and want, something more substantial than that.

Ryugi Kazamaru1 votes

Honestly, I think I'd have to look at the Mississippi River to get an idea for how the Serpentine River would work. There are tons and tons of little feeding streams and smaller tributaries that flow into the Mississippi to make it what it is. So, it's possible there is one river called "The Serpentine River" but it is fed from many different sources throughout Valoran.

The only problem is we've only ever heard of the Serpentine River, and until we get anything more, it's been mentioned all over the place as being "the river". Were I breaking from canon, I'd probably drop more rivers into the map, but since I'm trying to stick to what we know, that puts me in a rough spot.

Mister Sunglow1 votes

We should get a map that is Demacia VS Noxus kinda thing. Two different castles and you can enter each of them. Then there could be an objective inside each castle (kinda like a nexus) or maybe something to steal (capture the flag???) and BOOM a new map that ties in with the lore to make a fun experience for League of Legends players.

Ryugi Kazamaru1 votes

Maybe.

Still, I'd like an updated world map so I know where those two are, first.

Ryugi Kazamaru1 votes

Here is what I've made based off of my original doodle.

That took me 10 hours today. So much for a day off. It's still not even finished yet.

Ryugi Kazamaru1 votes

Also, in case anyone cared, I've made a finalized version of my attempt at a map.

Link is HERE.

Hopefully this will encourage Riot to do more toward getting us a viable representation of Runeterra.

TheI3igDaddy1 votes

That's a fantastic map. Upvote for you my good man.

Ryugi Kazamaru1 votes

{quoted}

That's a fantastic map. Upvote for you my good man.

Thank you for saying so. I'm honestly wondering how close to canon it will be whenever Riot releases something of merit for it. But, even if it's 100% wrong, I'd still like that than nothing at all.

Tesla Effect1 votes

Serpentine River is in the Blue Flames Archipelago now.

TenshouSNK1 votes

Except you didn't put Urtistan (Zilean's homeland) on that map.

Intentional? Or ignorance?

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