Boards›Story, Art, & Sound

Can we finally drop the "objectification" argument?

Remlap1223··9 votes·2,010 views

The rabid SJWs of boards have been whining that female champions have just been pure cheesecake, and nothing more, and that Ilaoi is the ultimate cliche breaker. I'm not even going to argue as to why that argument is flawed, because even its basis is completely unwarranted. Not only has Riot not been making shallow female champions since, well, ever, they haven't been pandering in terms of fanservice in YEARS. I'm going list off the most recent female champions, and stop only when I hit one that you could make a rational argument of fanservicy pandering:

Kindred I mean, I guess if your'e into sheep.

RekSai I don't think I have to say anything.

Kalista You probably wouldn't find her attractive unless you're into necrophilia.

Jinx I think if there was a champion that had the exact opposite body type of Miss Fortune, this would be her.

Lissandra I mean, she's got boobs, sure, but she's also mostly ice.

Quinn I'm sure Quinn is very shapely, but its under some extremely conservative clothing.

Vi Three years and seven different female champions discluding Ilaoi, and you've finally got a champion that you could make an argument for pandering. And really, Vi isn't your typical girl, she's fucking huge in terms of stature (I'm pretty sure she's taller than GP, even after his VU). The only thing that is remotely fanservicy is that booty.

In short, Riot has not made a booby bait champion in over three years.

Let's not forget that since the freaking beta we've had Annie, and let's also not forget the many great female nonhuman champions they have released: Anivia Lulu Orianna Poppy Soraka Tristana

Yes, Miss Fortune has big boobs and wide hips with a pencil thin waist, but you don't hear me complaining about Braum having unrealistically sized muscles, or Draven for being completely unrealistic in terms of male beauty standards do you?

I'm not saying that the bikini babe warrior isn't an overplayed cliche, it really is. But Riot is not the worst offender of this, not by a longshot. They're easily better at portraying great female characters than about 90% of the video games out there. Also, do you think replacing one trope with another is going to solve anything? Stop focusing on the body, and focus on the character itself, you might see even more beauty than what is skin deep. Ahri

17 Comments

Kobila20006 votes

I love it, just love it when people mention the champions that resulted from complaints against this retarded objectification as examples of non-objectified champions. If it weren't for those "rabid" SJWs (and you know, people who can think with more than their dicks), we'd still be getting more crap like Zyra, Nami and Syndra back-to-back. No-one (except maybe trolls) is complaining about newer female champions because they're obviously made with the goal of, you know, NOT being boring and objectified like the majority of the previous ones. Currently, LoL is amazing when it comes to female character design.

Vi is "huge"? She has the typical female body, her robohands are what's huge. Take a look at the newest champion for what really is huge. And you realize that using shitty arguments like "She's made of ice" or "She's a plant" doesn't make these characters nonhuman if they don't look like it in any significant way. If you have to tell me a woman is a monster and not just a cosplayer, then the designers did a shitty job. You don't have to tell me Rengar is actually a lion or that Maokai is a mystical tree creature.

The only actual nonhuman female champion we had for the longest time was Anivia and that's probably just because cats and birds tend to get assigned the female gender. All the others were either supermodels in Halloween costumes or "kawaii" chibi girls because male yordles can look like hamster-cat things, but female ones need to look like blue human girls for some reason.

Remlap12233 votes

Oh get over yourself. You're saying I can't think with more than my dick, but your'e the one who keeps bringing up these champs' bodies. News flash (I can get you some counseling for this earth shattering information if it proves too much for you to handle), women have boobs. They have waists that are smaller than their hips because of sexual dimporphism.

Due to sexual dimorphism and the way evolution rolled for humans, women evolved to be about 10% shorter, have about 50% less upper body strength, and about 100% less hand grip strength than men do. In addition, men's bodies generally have a waist to hip ratio ranging from about 0.8-1, and women have a ratio of about 0.6-0.8.

Of course fucking Vi has a typical female body, she's supposed to be a goddamn woman. Google Ronda Rousey for a second. Go ahead, I'll wait. Notice anything, peculiar about her? In her waist region? Oh, that's right, because she's a WOMAN! A woman that could probably kick my ass without breaking a sweat, but a woman nonetheless. She's not my cup of tea because I like dark haired girls and girls with less beef on them, but she still has features that are crucial for the childbearing process like wide hips, because she's a goddamn woman.

You don't hear rational men complaining about Braum or Draven for unrealistic standards for men, because they are fictional characters. You claim that this is a problematic trope only with women, yet I don't hear a peep about Braum, or Pool Party Graves, or Jayce, or Rugged Garen, because it doesn't fit your narrative. You don't care about consistency, you just want to whine about "mah objuctificashuns" to earn karma points on the internet. It's quite frankly more childish than these "people who think with only their dicks."

It's somehow ok to bash female portrayal in video games, but in classical artwork, we can just let that bitch slide, even though it does the exact same thing: portray the idea female body. Men weren't different from that either. Michelangelo's David had a dude with washboard abs, defined face, and small penis (which was actually considered ideal at the time for really gross reasons I won't go into).

And did you really just call Syndra "boring and objectified"? Because you can't get past "OMG REVEALING CLOTHING AND A CURVACEOUS FIGURE! THINK OF THE CHEELDREN!", you have taken a very well fleshed out character, and reduced her to nothing more than eye candy. You did that, not me. The Shakespearean irony to all of this is to people like you who think in such black and white terms is that you end up doing more harm than good. People like you are why Kali is the way she is in summoner 11 now.

To quote MatPat from GameTheory, "The tragic irony of this whole controversy is that before she was Kali, goddess of destruction, fueled by blood and war, and now, she's a melee assassin with high single target damage. "

Here's the big takeaway I want you to pay attention to:

"By demanding the character changed because they were afraid of her being a stereotype, they turned the character into what they most feared: a stereotype."

Kobila20001 votes

Men also have dicks. They also have beards. They also have big pecks and wide shoulders. Yet not every champion in LoL looks like Garen. Why is that, tell me? It's funny how people keep bringing up sexual dimorphism as if it only applies to women, as if real women are all just copy+pasted supermodels and men are, what? Everything else that exists? Gragas, Ezreal, Kha'Zix, TF, Kog'Maw, Kennen, Nocturne, Nautilus, Azir, Teemo, Rammus, Shaco, Bard, Blitz, Ekko, Fid, Gnar, Malzakar etc. etc. look masculine? They look like idealized muscular men? Where's your porno dimorphism now? Where are their giant shoulders, pecks and a humanoid appearance that looks like they came straight out of a Calvin Klein ad? Are they women?

And an important thing about sexual dimorphism: it's only a general rule. There's a ton of women who do not have giant hips, tiny bodies, tiny cute button noses, small jaws, big pretty eyelashes, nice lips, tiny eyebrows, big boobs (a bit of a secret: boobs get squashed by sports bras and clothing. Yes, those metal cups for tits are stupid and not a part of "sexshul dimorfizm", sorry to break your bubble) because humans are varied. Hairiness is also a male trait, yet not every male can grow a big bushy beard or have a six-pack. There are also short men and men with less muscular bodies. We have a ton of male champions who aren't Jayce copy+pastes and you're bullshitting me about sexual dimorphism? Really?

Most women also do not look like supermodels, ESPECIALLY women who work out. By losing fat, their boobs and hips get smaller. That's why many women who are into sports that burn a lot of fat look fairly androgynous. That's also why fat women tend to have big boobs and hips. Women who work out also tend not to have tiny twiggy arms and big tits because that's not the body of a fit woman. They also gain muscle because, huge surprise, muscles make up a human body, not just a man's. Working out in certain ways makes you gain muscle mass. This happens in both men and women. So tell me more about this bullshit "sexual dimorphism" and how women must all look like what men wish they looked like. Because every single champion you mentioned except Rek'Sai (because she, you know, doesn't in any way resembling a human so it wouldn't make sense to make her look like a woman) has accentuated hips and a relatively small build. Yes, including Vi. The newest champion also has feminine features such as relatively small ribcage, boobs and pretty emphasized hips. Compare her to Braum or any male muscular champion. But hey, she has big muscles and only men can be big and have muscle. 100% of women are made up of skin, bones and tits. Saying a woman with muscle is automatically masculine is like saying a man without a sixpack is feminine. Another fun fact, it's also a part of sexual dimorphism that women gain fat more easily. You wouldn't tell that from the champion roster though because apparently sexual dimorphism only applies to women who look like idealized supermodels.

Braum and Draven are ugly. I sure as hell hope you're a virgin along with the rest of the morons who seriously think women find these two irresistible. If you're gonna do the stupid "durr sexy men are offensive" schtick, at least use Yasuo, Varus or TF as an example. They were made with the idea of being attractive, but they're a drop in the sea of other characters and that's a huge difference. If you're making a male character, making them attractive and seductive is only one of a million other option. Because just being male does not immediately mean you need to be sexualized. You can be, but it's not a necessary core part of your identity due to the idea that no-one will give a shit about you if they can't fap to you. Gangplank is a pirate, MF is a seductress that happens to dress like a pirate.

We can have Ahri, Syndra and Elise and I'm fine with those (especially if being seductive is a core part of her identity). But it's a little bit retarded when 90% of female characters are designed with all of their generic "sexual dimorphism" being of the utmost priority at the cost of their actual identity. Compare Blitz to Orianna. Compare Rene to Kass. Compare Zyra to Maokai. Compare Nidalee to Rengar. Compare Syndra to Xerath. Compare Soraka to Hecarim. Would you like it if every single monster in the game had to look like Aatrox or Brand? Would you not find that at least a little bit pathetic and uncreative? Is it the priority of Maokai to accentuate his sexual dimorphism? No, because he's a goddamn tree. Is Kha'Zix decidedly masculine? Or something like Rengar, who does have a bit masculine appearance, but it's at the level of Kindred. Subtle. Because his point is that he's a beastly hunter first and male second. Because he's trying to kill you and he doesn't have to look like he wants to seduce you just because he happens to have a penis.

And oh no, Riot started to give us creative designs that don't look like generic sexy cosplayers. Yes, I'm sure Kindred, Rek'Sai and Kalista are such a stereotype compared to every generic pandering female videogame character. Btw Rousey gets a ton of comments about how she looks like a man.

Remlap12233 votes

I never said that sexual dimorphism applied to only women you dense twat. Unless there's this secret third sex I've heard about, it's a two way street. The differences that apply to women can be compared to men, and vice versa.

I also never said anything about eyelashes and lips, and eyebrows. That's your own definition you're drawing from, not mine. You're conflating preferences that men have sexually with sexual dimorphism. Sexual dimorphism selects for sexual preferences, but not all sexual preferences are selected by sexual dimorphism, in the same way that you don't call all rectangles squares just because all squares are rectangles.

This argument with the monster champions is extremely lackluster. Neither Kha'Zix, nor Kog'Maw, nor Kennen are men, because the word "man" is derived from the word "human", homo sapiens. You're confusing man and woman with male and female. There is nothing inherently masculine about Kha'Zix or Kog'Maw, because they aren't men, they're monsters who happen to be male. Their sex is an afterthought, not what defines the character. Same goes for Rek'Sai, she's a monster who happens to be female. Her sex has nothing to do with perceived femininity. The only reason her sex is brought up in the first place is because it's used as a tool to establish her being the queen of her species (establishment of hierarchy, not gender.)

And don't give me this bullshit of sexual dimoprhism being a general rule. Just because there are exceptions doesn't make it any less valid. If it's just a general rule, then by all means stick male bodybuilders against female ones, since it's fair because there are some women that are bigger and stronger than some men. Oh wait, that wouldn't work because it's not a level playing field.

Yeah, most women don't look like supermodels, but this is a FANTASY GAME! Most women aren't ice phoenixes either, or Yordles, or scary void monsters, just like most men aren't war demons, robots, or liches.

The only reason why these bombshell champions' bodies are "utmost priority" is because that's how you perceive it, because you literally can't get over that. When I see Miss Fortune, I see a bounty hunter and a fiery haired vengeful hell valkyrie first, and a skinny waist and big pair of tits second. I didn't main Miss Fortune because of her luscious boobies, I mained her because of her kit. I don't think Ahri is one of the best designed female champions in this game because she has all of my preferences in a female body, I think she's one of the best designed female champions because her backstory is incredibly deep.

When I see Ahri, I see a tragic story of a beautiful creature feeling like she's trapped in the wrong body, and comes into conflict between how she was raised (to be a ruthless predator in order to survive) and humanity (to be compassionate and merciful) and how she has to make the impossible choice of being trapped in the wrong body, or lose what it truly means to be human by sacrificing her compassion.

Idiots like you reduce character like her to eye candy, not horny teenage boys who find her attractive.

Miss Fortune isn't "flirty booty hunter" anymore. If you bothered to read the lore (instead of soapboxing about how she "objectifies women") you'd realize its a front. She doesn't play the sexy bounty hunter trope straight, she inverts it. I think she would have had sex with all of Bilgewater if it meant sending Gangplank to Davy Jones' Locker, but she wouldn't do it cuz she's a nymphomaniac, she'd do it because she's so hell bent on painting the Slaughter Docks red with Gangplank's blood.

Which brings me, once again, back to my main point. You are the one who is defining these characters as nothing more than a pair of tits, not Riot.

Confucius once said that "When a wise man points at the moon, the imbecile examines the finger." You are so obsessed with the goddamn finger that you completely disregard the moon.

It's a self fulfilling prophecy. You find that women are being objectified because you are specifically looking for signs of female objectification. You are so goddamn obsessed with being offended at big titties that you yourself have reduced an otherwise complex female champion down to the titties. You want to stop seeing that trope? Stop actively looking for it. You won't be able to view female champions as sexual objects if you actually invest yourself into their backstories instead of focusing solely on "teh big tittehs".

Kobila20003 votes

"It's a two way street" Except it's not. And I listed a ton of examples of male characters who in no way display the typical sexually dimorphic traits, most of which are positively androgynous. In fact, I'm sure the idealized male characters make up a small minority of all male characters. So unless you can explain why most male characters don't look like real stereotypical men, a fact that certainly doesn't apply to the female characters, I'm calling bullshit on your idiotic "sexshul dimorfizm" justification and the even more retarded "but all men are sexy too" argument. Come on, I'm waiting. Also I still find it funny that you're using the most recent female champion which came about because of the "sjw bitching" as an example of a female monster without a sexy woman form. Because otherwise, you're left with almost 100% of androgynous monsters being "male, not men" and a whooping 1 being "female, not a woman". Let's keep these newer champions people praise out of the picture because according to you, they've been "stereotyped" under pressure from evil feminists. Let's stick to the oh-so-creative half-naked designs before them.

When I see Ahri, I see a sexy foxgirl made to appeal to horny boys. I'm not against her design, but she's a sexy seductress archetype in the same way Rengar is a Predator knockoff and you're a tool for glorifying her just because she makes your hose jump. Not that it matters. Even if all these sexy female characters had the stories on the level of Shakespeare, the fact still remains that they absolutely need to be saddled with sexy designs regardless of whether their identity is an uberpowerful mage or a seductress. All you're doing currently is trying to avoid addressing their obligatory whore-like appearances by making excuses like "Well they're deep on the inside". I don't give a crap about what they're like on the inside because that's not what we're discussing. When you as a character designer (a job different from the person who writes a character's story, in case you didn't know) set out to design a female champion based on her story, your main thought shouldn't be "How can I emphasize the tits, the hips and the pretty face" (if you ever wondered why so few women have helmets or inhuman faces)? Your main thought should be "how do I emphasize their main characteristic, their main point?". Making them dimorphic should be an afterthought. Meanwhile we have Maokai, who's a tree, and Zyra, who's a cosplaying woman. Because if you're female, you don't get to not be sexy and "sexually dimorphic". On the other hand, Lamb shows feminine dimorphism, but that's completely trivial in her design. Same goes for Illaoi. They don't have to have ALL of the features of a sexy lady to count as female. I'm sure you think plenty of male champions have the best stories ever and yet they don't have to dress like Chippendales. Kha'Zix can be an insect without having a sexy alternate guy form (which for the longest time you couldn't say for anyone except Anivia, a freakin' bird). Darius can exist without having a hole in his belly so we can see his six-pack. Graves can wear a shirt and pants and still be manly. Malzahar can look androgynous without a chest window so we can see his "sexually dimorphic" characteristics.

You can try and sell me that these cheap knockoff characters are "oh so deep" on the inside, but at the end of the day you can't answer a crucial question: Why MUST these characters look and dress like prostitutes no matter how deep their story is? Why must you try so so hard to convince me that they're not just sexy cosplayers prostitutes despite the fact that they look like that? WHY did they have to look like cosplaying prostitutes if that's not what they're about? Ahri is a seductress so, as I already said, it makes sense that she looks the way she does because being sexually attractive is her point. But why must Morgana look like like a half-naked purple supermodel? Why most Eve dress in...that? Or Janna? Or LB? You get to have something like a trickster and the thing you decide to emphasize is their sex characteristics because only women must always be "sexually dimorphic"? (btw this was the precisely the justification Rioters used before they realized how stupid it was) Quinn is a decently designed champion and the thing about her that you first see is that a) she really really likes birds and b) she's an archer. You don't have to go on about how she's really an archer and a scout beneath that sexy exterior, because she's dressed normally and not like she's trying to make men's weiners jump. There isn't a single thing that would make her go around half-naked so she isn't. Not that a character can't ever be a little revealing without needing to, but it's pretty damn pathetic when it's obligatory if you're female, unless you look like a cute little girl. Because nothing else about you can possibly take priority over your tits.

"You're conflating preferences that men have sexually with sexual dimorphism." No, you're doing that. You're justifying making female characters sexually appealing to men by saying it's just using natural human dimorphism AND in the same reply you're justifying them being sexy because "it's a videogame". Most women don't have huge hips, big boobs and idealized supermodel faces that almost all female champions have. That's why supermodels exist, women who are selected out of the majority for possessing all the traits that we consider attractive in women. Real women look pretty varied, just as we have men like Ekko, Ezreal, Malza, Shaco, Varus, TF, Gragas, Corki etc. etc. Oh, what? "They need to be idealized because videogames" suddenly doesn't apply to guys? Yeah, "two-way street" my ass. Also, many female champions have makeup, despite it making no sense for them to wear it. Is that also a part of their "sexual dimorphism"? Metal cups for boobs and corsets too? Walking around half-naked?

Why can't an archer be an archer and be dressed like a normal person would be? Or rather, why can't the archery aspect of them be emphasized, rather than their tits and "sexually dimorphic" traits? And if you tell me that women who "don't care what they look like" would dress like prostitues, you're too stupid to live and don't ever come near another woman with such failure in comprehending human beings. At the end of the day, people got annoyed when we got champions like Syndra, Zyra and Elise in a row because of how repetitive and boring they were. Can you possibly imagine people getting sick of a design like Rek'Sai, Kindred, Kalista and Illaoi?

TehNACHO5 votes

Apparently, Zyra was the main cause of the argument on most accounts.

Something about some people expecting a plant monster before plant bikini stormed into the room.

Ralanr1 votes

I can understand that.

Remlap12233 votes

I've heard many different accounts of this.

I've heard it was Miss Fortune, Sona, then LeBlanc released back to back.

I've heard it was Ahri that pushed it over the edge.

I've heard the same about Nami.

And now I'm hearing about Zyra being the one.

I'm pretty sure 90% of the reason why they get (or in MF's case, got) the most shit is because how disconnected from the lore they were. Of course, this was during a time where Riot was more interested in paying their employees than design philosophy. It was just a luxury they couldn't afford then, they shifted their priorities, and now we're paying the price years later.

Dreamspitter5 votes

{quoted}

Apparently, Zyra was the main cause of the argument on most accounts.

Something about some people expecting a plant monster before plant bikini stormed into the room.

As if people didnt know who Poison Ivy was.

redniwediS3 votes

Unfortunately no, simply because the people who are willing to pick up that argument are not willing to see reason. If they saw reason they wouldn't be using that thing to begin with.

Just save your breath and do your best to ignore them. It's about the only thing we can do that doesn't add to our frustration.

Slamurai Jack3 votes

We haven't had a sexy female champion since Vi, nearly 3 years ago. Whiners gonna whine.

Ralanr2 votes

I guess we see Ahri so much in game that some people might be sick of her.

I guess.

Dreamspitter2 votes

{quoted}

The rabid SJWs of boards have been whining that female champions have just been pure cheesecake, and nothing more, and that Ilaoi is the ultimate cliche breaker. I'm not even going to argue as to why that argument is flawed, because even its basis is completely unwarranted. Not only has Riot not been making shallow female champions since, well, ever, they haven't been pandering in terms of fanservice in YEARS. I'm going list off the most recent female champions, and stop only when I hit one that you could make a rational argument of fanservicy pandering:

Kindred I mean, I guess if your'e into sheep.

RekSai I don't think I have to say anything.

Kalista You probably wouldn't find her attractive unless you're into necrophilia.

Jinx I think if there was a champion that had the exact opposite body type of Miss Fortune, this would be her.

Lissandra I mean, she's got boobs, sure, but she's also mostly ice.

Quinn I'm sure Quinn is very shapely, but its under some extremely conservative clothing.

Vi Three years and seven different female champions discluding Ilaoi, and you've finally got a champion that you could make an argument for pandering. And really, Vi isn't your typical girl, she's fucking huge in terms of stature (I'm pretty sure she's taller than GP, even after his VU). The only thing that is remotely fanservicy is that booty.

In short, Riot has not made a booby bait champion in over three years.

Let's not forget that since the freaking beta we've had Annie, and let's also not forget the many great female nonhuman champions they have released: Anivia Lulu Orianna Poppy Soraka Tristana

Yes, Miss Fortune has big boobs and wide hips with a pencil thin waist, but you don't hear me complaining about Braum having unrealistically sized muscles, or Draven for being completely unrealistic in terms of male beauty standards do you?

I'm not saying that the bikini babe warrior isn't an overplayed cliche, it really is. But Riot is not the worst offender of this, not by a longshot. They're easily better at portraying great female characters than about 90% of the video games out there. Also, do you think replacing one trope with another is going to solve anything? Stop focusing on the body, and focus on the character itself, you might see even more beauty than what is skin deep. Ahri

#To be honest...

You can objectify anything and anyone, and only hours after Illaoi release there was R34 on reddit. This playerbase, really the internet itself, is into and objectifies a LOT of stuff.

So really, there is NOTHING that is not objectified (whether the artist TRIES to do it or not-its objectified by somebody).

Kobila20002 votes

There's a huge difference between a part of the fanbase objectifying your character and you yourself making every female character of yours in a way that it's already objectified.

DragonShea2 votes

{quoted}

#To be honest...

You can objectify anything and anyone, and only hours after Illaoi release there was R34 on reddit. This playerbase, really the internet itself, is into and objectifies a LOT of stuff.

So really, there is NOTHING that is not objectified (whether the artist TRIES to do it or not-its objectified by somebody).

My faith in humanity has been restored and to some, not the most moral way.

GreenLore2 votes

Overall I also think that many people are exaggerating on how many fanservice the female champs provide.

However I think the source for this is simply how much more humanoid the female champs in Lol tend to be. Yes female non-human champs do exist,but they are much less compared to the number of non-human male champs(even if we only compare the ratios between human and non-human champs).

In the end I think that fanservice does make sense in some cases,for example it makes sense that Jinx (I'd disagree that she doesn't provide fanservice,since she doesn't wear very much and well not everyone is into big boobs)isn't wearing much becauseshe is supposed to look like a raider from fallout,tank girl or like a mad-max-character.

DragonShea1 votes

It's only objectification if you are sexist and have no respect for women. yeah I would get stiff near or seeing a scantily clad lady at first glance but at least I would get used to seeing them half naked. So what at least while I don't care too much about how much clothes a woman has, I am getting a little sick of all of this oversexulisation as people keep on pushing for, then say people are being sexist and then contradict themselves on such a scale that they literally cannot understand what when or when not sexualisation has been done right.

People who are shocked easily of sexualisted things, topic and women don't have the fucking right talk about them. Because. You. Can't. Handle it. And trying to be the white knight will just prove. A woman is a woman period. And why the fuck should we flip it in regards to how they look.

And one thing I hate doing is talking about any female rights, is that it makes me feel as if I am talking about women as if they are lower than me, but yet I have to say this because people with just continue with their petty bullshit of not knowing what women's rights is and fighting something that they are figuratively doing blindfolded with gouged out eyes. To me. women are human so like men are. what the fuck is the difference apart from them being them being smaller, lighter, of a different physique like having bigger hips and breasts.

so stop having these dumb-ass discussions about women because it's just gonna make all of you afraid going something sexist while you are already doing it by being ignorant of knowing what your talking about.

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