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Cassiopeia- who is she? What is her identity?

TheUltimateSpear·1/25/2015, 4:43:17 AM·18 votes·3,712 views

Hoh boy. Cassiopeia, Cassiopeia. Guys, I love this champ. I do. She was the first champ I bought with IP and when I think League I think of the nostalgia of picking her back at the end of season 3. Anyways, I've been following all discussion about her and have commented a few times, but honestly... I don't know if the Cassiopeia playerbase can come to a consensus. Some like King Kobra say her High DPS with Twin Fang was the correct direction to take her kit as people picked her for her raw damage output. Others like Ginga and Canastus played Cassiopeia as a poke mage with her poisons and say this rework destroys that. While the rework has it's problems, particular the passive, as a general direction of DPS mage I think it can work and a hypercarry DPS mage might be fun.

HOWEVER!

...Is this a good gameplay niche for Cassiopeia? I don't know. The thing that's stood out about Cassiopeia to me, what I like about her is her intelligence. She has this certain shrewdness that just says "Cassiopeia." Her personality aligns really well with the snake motif, as well. That's why I loved her lore judgement and I adore her new voice over. (Still provided by the lovely Karen Strassman) She is a manipulator. Confident, shrewd, opportunistic. The only thing that I don't like was that her new lore with Shurima... just didn't seem very smart for her otherwise clever nature. That's more of a storytelling issue than anything to do with Cassiopeia's personality, though.

Anyways, personality wise I don't know if "manipulative, seductive, shrewd temptress" is a match for AP hyper carry. I don't mean to be condescending as hell, but I don't know. Thing is, I feel like DPS mage niche came from the fact that she could be a DPS mage before. Story wise I believe a poison poke mage would fit better, strictly speaking.

But it's not so simple. Cassiopeia's base line at the moment is "Snake Mage." Sure she has a bit of Gorgon with her ultimate, Petrifying Gaze. And she looks mostly like a Lamia, specifically, with her cowl of sorts on her head and half serpentine body, but that's about it. Do snakes use poison, or more specifically venom? Sure, but not all species do. Anyways, Cassiopeia as a snake who uses venom. Base line. Now here is where things get very, VERY, tricky.

Storytelling wise, Snakes are associated with shrewdness, deception, and perhaps cowardice. Snakes in real life though... That's another story. You can't really argue whether their fangs or venom is more important to "kill" so to speak among snake species that do use venom. So meh. From what I can see, Cassiopeia as a poke mage or DPS mage can make good sense regardless of which of the two is chosen, but perhaps the former makes a bit more sense.

Gameplay wise, before her rework Cassiopeia was inconsistent. I acknowledge it. Her Q and W were poke/zoning DoT, poision spells. Her E was a standard nuke on a refreshable cooldown to be a DPS mage. Her ultimate was Medusa/Gorgon inspired and given a slightly longer duration stun because it was harder to land. A devasting counterattack/countengage or defensive tool was what her original designer, Brackhar, wanted. Now, it's more or less the same, except the number shifts have forced players into the DPS mage style playstyle. There's nothing wrong with that playstyle, but it leaves a sour taste in those who preferred Cassiopeia as a posion poke mage.

Except vice versa could also be true on a second revision, and that's why this is so difficult.

This can stand as the TL;DR for the entire post. Cassiopeia, for better or worse, had very versatile builds and playstyles before her rework. With it, despite it's other small problems, comes the big and only true meaningful problem of that half of Cassiopeia's fanbase have had the DPS mage playstyle they don't like forced upon them. And you can't turn her into a poison poke-mage because the other half of her fanbase will be upset. I honestly think that maybe we should just revert her rework and leave her with her slightly incoherent, inconsistent, but extremely fun kit she had before. Besides, not everyone has to be the best at one thing. Cassiopeia was and can be a generalist mage, like Brand, if that's the best way to go. With her sheer numbers on her damage before, both fanbases can get away with playing mostly how'd they like. Basically, I think, and hope, that getting almost satisfaction for both bases is overall better than the complete satisfaction of one half and complete dissatisfaction of the other half is better. And perhaps it's the best that can be done.

50 Comments

Oleandervine1/25/2015, 6:51:33 AM13 votes

Cassiopeia is a poison mage. Such is expressed in her voiceover. Everything she talks about is poisons, intoxicating victims, and otherwise ensnaring them in her machinations. NOTHING about her says "I poison and then brutally beat them to death." She's all about subtlety and withering deaths; because of this drive in her personality and lore, her play style of an APC Rambo Mage doesn't make any kind of sense. This rework of hers preserved a kit that once was a multifaceted kit, but warped the numbers and created a very large imbalance in the way her spells work in an attempt to push her into a role that the majority of kit just simply does not support. The APC aspect should have been pulled and split off into another champion entirely if they were really so set on having that role in the game.

Samflash31/25/2015, 2:09:40 PM11 votes

Cassiopeia is a noble snake woman...with an AK47.

5G8Nri0B541/25/2015, 5:45:19 AM4 votes

This might be better served at "Gameplay and Balance" boards.

But my opinion on her.

Rework: Too brutish. Turns her into what is essentially AP Rambo. Makes her into a mano-a-mano brawler.

She should be a cowardly manipulative poison mage. Not someone looking to punch faces.

Auryiel1/25/2015, 6:28:32 PM4 votes

Identity? What is that?

  • Stashu
MrBuffington1/25/2015, 5:35:20 PM3 votes

Thank you for making this post; I was just about to make a similar one :) (I'll just comment my thoughts here instead)

I've been thinking, though, and I do think there's a way to get satisfaction from both sides. I think some similar ideas have been floated in the past, but I'm going to draw inspiration from another champion in the game: Kha'Zix.

Kha'Zix is an interesting champion where he gets to evolve his abilities with each rank of his ultimate; the thing with him is, he gains access to different playstyles based on what he evolves. For example, if he goes for evolved W, his poke becomes super strong and he becomes less of a diving assassin and more one that just pokes the enemy down before going in to clean up. Of course, Kha'Zix has issues where one playstyle tends to drown out the other depending on nerfs, etc., but hopefully if this is more limited in Cassiopeia, it'll be easier to balance.

So basically you can probably see where I'm going with this; she can choose to make her Q or E fit her desired playstyle, but not both (that would be broken). Here's an iteration I was working on (no numbers though):

#Passive: Aspect of the Serpent:

  • So Stashu interpreted this as Cassiopeia embracing her new powers, and becoming more powerful throughout the game. In the current iteration, this is realized through raw stats; I think many people agree that this is kind of boring. Instead, at the first rank, I think she should have the option of enhancing her Q or E. The reason I still want to tie this to her passive (instead of ult ranks or just at the beginning of the game) is it can be modified so that she attains this faster than lvl 6 so a lane bully style would still be relevant (I'm not sure it would be healthy to have access to this power at the start of the game). Further ranks of her passive can enhance these abilities further, or add something to her other spells (I think a short fear on her ult in addition to the slow would be kind of cool; the stun still remains the same). Here are just my ideas on the enhancements:
  • Enhanced Q: Now has a burst of initial damage in addition to the DoT; think Nasus' Spirit Fire (E). I think the 'pop' when she casts her Q should feel more impactful, in addition it adds more clarity to the damage you're taking, since it's a burst of damage instead of DoT (I think this is a problem Riot has with DoT spells). This could result in more satisfying poke and makes up for the damage previously removed.
  • Enhanced E: Unsure about this one:
    • Option 1: Her E no longer innately resets, instead the reset is tied to the enhanced E, and maybe grant some other effects like mana refund and/or healing. The thought here is that a Cassiopeia player who chooses the enhanced Q damage shouldn't be able to turn into an "AP Rambo" style champion.
    • Option 2: Her E retains it's innate reset, but grants some other effect, maybe that poison damage amp if there's anyone who actually likes that ability.

I think altered visual elements will be necessary; it'll make it clear to the other player what type of Cassiopeia they're playing against. I don't really know about other enhancements; I think the rest of her kit remains the same (aside from if elements of her live E are taken away and put into the passive, depending on how the enhancement works)

Thoughts?

GreenLore1/25/2015, 1:36:37 PM3 votes

Tbh I think many people seem to be under the impression that her scaling into a hyper carry turns her from cowardly poison mage that pokes from time to time into an ap-rambo.

However I'd say it actually reflects her personality quite well.She starts out as a "cowardly" mage who poisons you from time to time,but isn't such a huge threat and then after she has done her preparations she is ready to strike(the moment where the late game starts to turn into her favor)

The Whamboozler1/25/2015, 9:11:32 PM3 votes

+1 like for the "can we revert the rework" line. Seriously, screw new Cass, she's going to be impossible to balance now.

What made them think it was a good idea to put 90% of her kit into her E. A targeted, spammy nuke. She's the new Ryze of top lane and she's gonna get nerfed over it. Then once her numbers are cut she'll be too weak to justify getting in close to people to spam her E again and she has NOTHING to fall back on. It was a TERRIBLE rework. Old Cass was balanced fine. If she went ham on you with her E she was taking a huge risk. She was squishy and had no sustain, so she had BETTER take you out. To ensure this, she poked you a lot to weaken you up. She wasn't sitting on a high winrate or anything, so I fail to see why she had to be trashed.

Drukyul1/25/2015, 9:50:07 PM2 votes

I'd say the playstyle should be somewhat like a snake in that they strike fast and you're dead, even if you don't know it and even if you don't die immediately.

For the most part, her kit fits with this. I don't think Miasma is really a necessary part of her kit as far as that theme goes, so if you wanted to make a theme change in the kit that's where you should look. Maybe instead of a slow it should be some sort of debuff to make it easier for others to finish off the target - something more like Urgot's poison?

Aspynn1/25/2015, 10:17:35 PM2 votes

Best way to fix this is to make 2 champions with the two different gameplay styles they have given to cassiopiea. Give cass back her poison identity and make another champion with powerful stacking and adc like sustained spellcasting. I think Stashu's idea for cass was interesting, but it took away so much from what old cass players knew and loved that many players hated the rework. People are starting to realize now I think that cass is still an okay pick in the meta right now (She's been played in the LCS... Right? Not sure o-o correct me plis) But she isn't the same poison mage. It's super disappointing to chunk someone with your e and have them get away with a smidge of HP only to survive due to cass' pathetic DOT on her poisons.

Sneak Dog1/25/2015, 2:00:05 PM2 votes

The issue with focusing a mages power into DoTs is that DoTs are hard to appreciate in LoL. Both you and your enemy can evaluate a burst of damage much better than that same damage over three seconds. This makes it so that a DoT has to deal significant damage or it feels weak.

Already, an unhenhanced Noxious blast deals similar damage to a Lissandra Q with similar ranges (But blast has less ap ratio). Enhanced by twin fang it gets a lot better. I don't see how a DoT-focused mage would work with a classic mage playstyle.

Mixing a strong poke and a strong all-in with petrifying gaze doesn't go very well either, which is what you suggested with your generalist kit. Having strong poke forces the opponent to outsustain you, outpoke you or to fight you. Petrifying gaze+twin fang make sure that Cassiopeia wins an all-in. Toplane sees this issue all the time. A melee versus ranged match-up in which the ranged champion can reliably disengage from the melees all-in attempts means the melee champion can't do much. It's hard to outsustain or outpoke constant auto-attack harass. The only thing is that often ranged toplane champions can't reliably disengage due to the tower being quite far away. Having her be a generalist also means she just doesn't get picked unless she's stronger than every other generalist mage or stronger in a specialisation than a specialised mage is in that specialisation.

O o b l e c k1/26/2015, 1:11:13 PM1 votes

She's a Tunnel Snake and TUNNEL SNAKES RULE

TaylorGaylor1/25/2015, 9:45:51 PM1 votes

All Cassiopeia players who have too much time on there hands:

Oh, Cassieopeia, she's strong now...but who is she really?

Let's make a thousand threads with walls of texts about how we're never going to be satisfied with her.

Silents4291/25/2015, 4:28:21 PM1 votes

I. I still don't know what everyone is mad about, I only see complaints about her on just these forums, never from people in game.. And I played her after the rework, and actually liked her..

-Edit- Did some A-holes really downvote me because I enjoyed the current Cass.

Hextech Katarina1/25/2015, 1:35:22 PM1 votes

in other words damage should be shifted to DoT's not the twin fang. got it.

Oleandervine1/25/2015, 6:50:46 PM1 votes

Here's how I would balance Cassiopeia while still keeping her poisons relevant:

Twin Fang: 0.5s CD. Deals X magical damage plus an additional Y damage if the target is poisoned. Each time Twin Fang is cast against the same target, the mana cost and damage is reduced by 20%, stacking to a maximum of 80%.

This way, there's still a machine gun style gameplay element to Twin Fangs, and also an ideal way to use it as a finisher burst. Reducing the damage output and mana cost as it is cast fixes mana problems, her over powered potential, and can allow for more damage to be funneled back into the rest of her kit without damaging either playstyle. This also can allow that awful passive to be changed to something that isn't just a wad of stats.