Boards›Story, Art, & Sound

Cassiopeia- who is she? What is her identity?

TheUltimateSpear··18 votes·3,712 views

Hoh boy. Cassiopeia, Cassiopeia. Guys, I love this champ. I do. She was the first champ I bought with IP and when I think League I think of the nostalgia of picking her back at the end of season 3. Anyways, I've been following all discussion about her and have commented a few times, but honestly... I don't know if the Cassiopeia playerbase can come to a consensus. Some like King Kobra say her High DPS with Twin Fang was the correct direction to take her kit as people picked her for her raw damage output. Others like Ginga and Canastus played Cassiopeia as a poke mage with her poisons and say this rework destroys that. While the rework has it's problems, particular the passive, as a general direction of DPS mage I think it can work and a hypercarry DPS mage might be fun.

HOWEVER!

...Is this a good gameplay niche for Cassiopeia? I don't know. The thing that's stood out about Cassiopeia to me, what I like about her is her intelligence. She has this certain shrewdness that just says "Cassiopeia." Her personality aligns really well with the snake motif, as well. That's why I loved her lore judgement and I adore her new voice over. (Still provided by the lovely Karen Strassman) She is a manipulator. Confident, shrewd, opportunistic. The only thing that I don't like was that her new lore with Shurima... just didn't seem very smart for her otherwise clever nature. That's more of a storytelling issue than anything to do with Cassiopeia's personality, though.

Anyways, personality wise I don't know if "manipulative, seductive, shrewd temptress" is a match for AP hyper carry. I don't mean to be condescending as hell, but I don't know. Thing is, I feel like DPS mage niche came from the fact that she could be a DPS mage before. Story wise I believe a poison poke mage would fit better, strictly speaking.

But it's not so simple. Cassiopeia's base line at the moment is "Snake Mage." Sure she has a bit of Gorgon with her ultimate, Petrifying Gaze. And she looks mostly like a Lamia, specifically, with her cowl of sorts on her head and half serpentine body, but that's about it. Do snakes use poison, or more specifically venom? Sure, but not all species do. Anyways, Cassiopeia as a snake who uses venom. Base line. Now here is where things get very, VERY, tricky.

Storytelling wise, Snakes are associated with shrewdness, deception, and perhaps cowardice. Snakes in real life though... That's another story. You can't really argue whether their fangs or venom is more important to "kill" so to speak among snake species that do use venom. So meh. From what I can see, Cassiopeia as a poke mage or DPS mage can make good sense regardless of which of the two is chosen, but perhaps the former makes a bit more sense.

Gameplay wise, before her rework Cassiopeia was inconsistent. I acknowledge it. Her Q and W were poke/zoning DoT, poision spells. Her E was a standard nuke on a refreshable cooldown to be a DPS mage. Her ultimate was Medusa/Gorgon inspired and given a slightly longer duration stun because it was harder to land. A devasting counterattack/countengage or defensive tool was what her original designer, Brackhar, wanted. Now, it's more or less the same, except the number shifts have forced players into the DPS mage style playstyle. There's nothing wrong with that playstyle, but it leaves a sour taste in those who preferred Cassiopeia as a posion poke mage.

Except vice versa could also be true on a second revision, and that's why this is so difficult.

This can stand as the TL;DR for the entire post. Cassiopeia, for better or worse, had very versatile builds and playstyles before her rework. With it, despite it's other small problems, comes the big and only true meaningful problem of that half of Cassiopeia's fanbase have had the DPS mage playstyle they don't like forced upon them. And you can't turn her into a poison poke-mage because the other half of her fanbase will be upset. I honestly think that maybe we should just revert her rework and leave her with her slightly incoherent, inconsistent, but extremely fun kit she had before. Besides, not everyone has to be the best at one thing. Cassiopeia was and can be a generalist mage, like Brand, if that's the best way to go. With her sheer numbers on her damage before, both fanbases can get away with playing mostly how'd they like. Basically, I think, and hope, that getting almost satisfaction for both bases is overall better than the complete satisfaction of one half and complete dissatisfaction of the other half is better. And perhaps it's the best that can be done.

50 Comments

Oleandervine13 votes

Cassiopeia is a poison mage. Such is expressed in her voiceover. Everything she talks about is poisons, intoxicating victims, and otherwise ensnaring them in her machinations. NOTHING about her says "I poison and then brutally beat them to death." She's all about subtlety and withering deaths; because of this drive in her personality and lore, her play style of an APC Rambo Mage doesn't make any kind of sense. This rework of hers preserved a kit that once was a multifaceted kit, but warped the numbers and created a very large imbalance in the way her spells work in an attempt to push her into a role that the majority of kit just simply does not support. The APC aspect should have been pulled and split off into another champion entirely if they were really so set on having that role in the game.

ShadowParker1 votes

She would be a true poison mage if they just made her e scale with poison amp% instead of damage. This way it would encourage her to switch targets and poison more people.

VardenSalad5 votes

Worse, she's going to be brutally nerfed after seeing success in EU LCS. This might shock Riot into giving her DoTs power for counterplay instead of dying from 1 Q and 4 Es.

I guess I'm of the opinion that Cass should have a better mix of damage across skills.

Samflash311 votes

Cassiopeia is a noble snake woman...with an AK47.

5G8Nri0B544 votes

This might be better served at "Gameplay and Balance" boards.

But my opinion on her.

Rework: Too brutish. Turns her into what is essentially AP Rambo. Makes her into a mano-a-mano brawler.

She should be a cowardly manipulative poison mage. Not someone looking to punch faces.

Dreamspitter3 votes

{quoted}

This might be better served at "Gameplay and Balance" boards.

But my opinion on her.

Rework: Too brutish. Turns her into what is essentially AP Rambo. Makes her into a mano-a-mano brawler.

She should be a cowardly manipulative poison mage. Not someone looking to punch faces.

huh?

5G8Nri0B541 votes

A simple huh doesn't exactly communicate much...

Dreamspitter1 votes

{quoted}

A simple huh doesn't exactly communicate much...

OK.

How in the WORLD is she best described as "AP Rambo" or a face puncher?

5G8Nri0B541 votes

Go play her.

Dreamspitter1 votes

{quoted}

Go play her.

I have, and I've just never see it that way since the rework in September (although I did not player her but once before the rework and for the month or two I was post rework -that never crossed over to the second change to her passive in Rek'Sai patch in December).

Way I see it, they're a late game champ like always but in the opinion of some they have few ways to reach that late game.

Auryiel4 votes

Identity? What is that?

  • Stashu
GreenLore3 votes

Tbh I think many people seem to be under the impression that her scaling into a hyper carry turns her from cowardly poison mage that pokes from time to time into an ap-rambo.

However I'd say it actually reflects her personality quite well.She starts out as a "cowardly" mage who poisons you from time to time,but isn't such a huge threat and then after she has done her preparations she is ready to strike(the moment where the late game starts to turn into her favor)

MrBuffington3 votes

Thank you for making this post; I was just about to make a similar one :) (I'll just comment my thoughts here instead)

I've been thinking, though, and I do think there's a way to get satisfaction from both sides. I think some similar ideas have been floated in the past, but I'm going to draw inspiration from another champion in the game: Kha'Zix.

Kha'Zix is an interesting champion where he gets to evolve his abilities with each rank of his ultimate; the thing with him is, he gains access to different playstyles based on what he evolves. For example, if he goes for evolved W, his poke becomes super strong and he becomes less of a diving assassin and more one that just pokes the enemy down before going in to clean up. Of course, Kha'Zix has issues where one playstyle tends to drown out the other depending on nerfs, etc., but hopefully if this is more limited in Cassiopeia, it'll be easier to balance.

So basically you can probably see where I'm going with this; she can choose to make her Q or E fit her desired playstyle, but not both (that would be broken). Here's an iteration I was working on (no numbers though):

#Passive: Aspect of the Serpent:

  • So Stashu interpreted this as Cassiopeia embracing her new powers, and becoming more powerful throughout the game. In the current iteration, this is realized through raw stats; I think many people agree that this is kind of boring. Instead, at the first rank, I think she should have the option of enhancing her Q or E. The reason I still want to tie this to her passive (instead of ult ranks or just at the beginning of the game) is it can be modified so that she attains this faster than lvl 6 so a lane bully style would still be relevant (I'm not sure it would be healthy to have access to this power at the start of the game). Further ranks of her passive can enhance these abilities further, or add something to her other spells (I think a short fear on her ult in addition to the slow would be kind of cool; the stun still remains the same). Here are just my ideas on the enhancements:
  • Enhanced Q: Now has a burst of initial damage in addition to the DoT; think Nasus' Spirit Fire (E). I think the 'pop' when she casts her Q should feel more impactful, in addition it adds more clarity to the damage you're taking, since it's a burst of damage instead of DoT (I think this is a problem Riot has with DoT spells). This could result in more satisfying poke and makes up for the damage previously removed.
  • Enhanced E: Unsure about this one:
    • Option 1: Her E no longer innately resets, instead the reset is tied to the enhanced E, and maybe grant some other effects like mana refund and/or healing. The thought here is that a Cassiopeia player who chooses the enhanced Q damage shouldn't be able to turn into an "AP Rambo" style champion.
    • Option 2: Her E retains it's innate reset, but grants some other effect, maybe that poison damage amp if there's anyone who actually likes that ability.

I think altered visual elements will be necessary; it'll make it clear to the other player what type of Cassiopeia they're playing against. I don't really know about other enhancements; I think the rest of her kit remains the same (aside from if elements of her live E are taken away and put into the passive, depending on how the enhancement works)

Thoughts?

Sneak Dog2 votes

Kha'Zix remains an assassin whatever he evolves, even though he can opt to sacrifice some assassin ability for poke. Cassiopeia would still be a dps mage, she could decide to give up some early dps for poke I guess?

Either that or you want to give Cassiopeia two kits: One if she wants poke and one if she wants dps. That'd be like having to balance two champions in one though. Similar to having to balance a champion that can go both ap and ad.

MrBuffington1 votes

Yea, the thought is that her "evolution" either shifts her more towards the heavier poke-side or the E-spam side.

Sneak Dog1 votes

It's *really *hard to balance two gameplay patterns on one kit though. I think Stashu realised this and picked the one not revolving around unstatisfying DoT patterns.

MrBuffington5 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sneak Dog,realm=EUW,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=OAtEMPd4,comment-id=0007000000000000,timestamp=2015-01-25T18:55:09.893+0000)

It's *really *hard to balance two gameplay patterns on one kit though.

In this variant of Cassiopeia, she's still a DPS/DoT mage, just one element of her kit is emphasized over the other. Like other champions with different builds or playstyles, sure, one might be "more in the meta" than the other, but the other playstyle is possible/playable/viable, which is the key difference. If the meta prefers AS Kayle over AP Kayle, sure, more people are going to play AS Kayle, but that doesn't mean AP Kayle isn't still potent or viable or playable or even exists. The current "meta" path for Kha'Zix isn't to evolve his X ability (I'm actually not sure); that doesn't mean he still can't be played as that other playstyle; maybe it "isn't as good", but if that's what the player wants, and it isn't abusive or makes the game unfun for other players, it shouldn't be a problem.

Here's a good talk from some Reds at PAX South talking about champion design:

http://www.twitch.tv/pax/c/5961229

The point I want to draw your attention to is when they talk about balance; I don't think it's so much about getting the statistics to that perfect 50%; a lot of it has to do with "is this champion fun, can they be played in the way that I want to play them, without making them unhealthy for the game?". A lot of Cassio players want to have her kit more focused on her Q, perhaps even at the expense of some of her E functionality, and I think that's worth supporting, even if (and it probably won't) it doesn't have that perfect 50% play rate. Some people play DFGaren; that's freaking awesome, and I think Riot agrees that it's cool to have players innovate with the game they created (of course barring that it doesn't make the game unhealthy).

I think Stashu realised this and picked the one not revolving around unstatisfying DoT patterns.

I think a lot of Cassiopeia players on Boards would argue that her E spam is an unsatisfying DoT/DPS style.

Abyssphere2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sneak Dog,realm=EUW,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=OAtEMPd4,comment-id=0007000000000000,timestamp=2015-01-25T18:55:09.893+0000)

It's *really *hard to balance two gameplay patterns on one kit though. I think Stashu realised this and picked the one not revolving around unstatisfying DoT patterns.

"Unsatisfying DoT patterns"

Just because Riot says DOTs are unsatisfying to everyone does not mean they are.

Sneak Dog1 votes

You see these small numbers pop up, instead of one big one. You don't know how much that one ability changed his health bar, because other damage and healing sources also changed his health bar. It's hard to evaluate the damage DoTs deal, so it's confusing to play against and unstatisfying to play as.

5G8Nri0B543 votes

Not everyone who plays LoL is 8.

Trust me, even in between attacks, anyone who doesn't have ADD or anything can easily see the damage ticks inbetween spells. Everyone can see the damage continuing to tick once the enemy disengages from all other attack ranges but still have poison in them.

Lots of little damage is calculated the same way chunks of big damage is. Add them up. It's a skill you learn in K-2.

Abyssphere2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sneak Dog,realm=EUW,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=OAtEMPd4,comment-id=000700000000000000010000,timestamp=2015-01-26T18:44:04.904+0000)

You see these small numbers pop up, instead of one big one. You don't know how much that one ability changed his health bar, because other damage and healing sources also changed his health bar. It's hard to evaluate the damage DoTs deal, so it's confusing to play against and unstatisfying to play as.

"unsatisfying to play as" is not something you get to say. You don't speak for the entire LoL playerbase, and a lot of people will tell you they find DOT more fun than straight up damage.

And it's the enemy player's fault if they can't even add up the damage ticks.

Sneak Dog1 votes

I literally told you why I thought it was unstatisfying. It's not their fault they'd rather add 5 numbers to eachother than 25. It's harder to evaluate so if your DoT isn't significant enough to visibly churn their health bar, even if it deals 5% of their health in damage, it's unstatisfying.

5G8Nri0B541 votes

Her DPS IS poke.

If there is a trade-off, it should be single-target upfront immediate damage at short range, and AoE DoT at long range.

TheUltimateSpear1 votes

I think this could work. Quick question though, would this upgrade bonus be in the passive of her kit? Or if we're choosing between Q and E perhaps make it a trinket? And bringing back the base and ratios on Miasma and Petrifying Gaze since she Cassiopeia wouldn't be getting increased percentage ap, and bringing back her Deadly Cadence passive she had before.

MrBuffington1 votes

That was the idea; A lot of people complain about her passive not offering much gameplay or just feeling like invisible power, since it's just a lot of stats. I was thinking of changing her passive so that it gives her more utility, such as a watered down version of her Deadly Cadence passive or extra CC like I mentioned, and ways to play her kit, like a Q or E focus, which would make her passive more interesting imo.

I didn't want it to be something she has access to at the beginning of the game (like a trinket), since IIRC her pre-rework lane bully patterns were kind of unhealthy. Her stacking passive (imo) has some potential to be an exciting gameplay point for players, where you're rewarded for playing well, and it could offer some things that Cassio players are excited to work towards, instead of just "oh i guess i do more damage now", it's more like "if I get my stacks early, I can enhance my E and start shredding through people/enhance my Q so that my poke feels better and more relevant".

The enhance I mentioned is just for the first breakpoint of the passive; I'm not sure how the others would work. I'm hesitant about just adding in the damage in her other spells since that was the cost she paid for her E spam style, it wouldn't make sense that she just get them back all the time; it might be possible to have different "skill lines" as her first choice, and then the breakpoints add in utility depending on the gameplay style she chose.

Like, maybe at the start of the game you choose "aspect of poison" or "aspect of fangs" (names subject to change), where the choice determines the boosts you get at each breakpoint of your passive?

The Whamboozler3 votes

+1 like for the "can we revert the rework" line. Seriously, screw new Cass, she's going to be impossible to balance now.

What made them think it was a good idea to put 90% of her kit into her E. A targeted, spammy nuke. She's the new Ryze of top lane and she's gonna get nerfed over it. Then once her numbers are cut she'll be too weak to justify getting in close to people to spam her E again and she has NOTHING to fall back on. It was a TERRIBLE rework. Old Cass was balanced fine. If she went ham on you with her E she was taking a huge risk. She was squishy and had no sustain, so she had BETTER take you out. To ensure this, she poked you a lot to weaken you up. She wasn't sitting on a high winrate or anything, so I fail to see why she had to be trashed.

Sneak Dog2 votes

The issue with focusing a mages power into DoTs is that DoTs are hard to appreciate in LoL. Both you and your enemy can evaluate a burst of damage much better than that same damage over three seconds. This makes it so that a DoT has to deal significant damage or it feels weak.

Already, an unhenhanced Noxious blast deals similar damage to a Lissandra Q with similar ranges (But blast has less ap ratio). Enhanced by twin fang it gets a lot better. I don't see how a DoT-focused mage would work with a classic mage playstyle.

Mixing a strong poke and a strong all-in with petrifying gaze doesn't go very well either, which is what you suggested with your generalist kit. Having strong poke forces the opponent to outsustain you, outpoke you or to fight you. Petrifying gaze+twin fang make sure that Cassiopeia wins an all-in. Toplane sees this issue all the time. A melee versus ranged match-up in which the ranged champion can reliably disengage from the melees all-in attempts means the melee champion can't do much. It's hard to outsustain or outpoke constant auto-attack harass. The only thing is that often ranged toplane champions can't reliably disengage due to the tower being quite far away. Having her be a generalist also means she just doesn't get picked unless she's stronger than every other generalist mage or stronger in a specialisation than a specialised mage is in that specialisation.

TheUltimateSpear2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sneak Dog,realm=EUW,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=OAtEMPd4,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2015-01-25T14:00:05.483+0000)

The issue with focusing a mages power into DoTs is that DoTs are hard to appreciate in LoL. Both you and your enemy can evaluate a burst of damage much better than that same damage over three seconds. This makes it so that a DoT has to deal significant damage or it feels weak.

Already, an unhenhanced Noxious blast deals similar damage to a Lissandra Q with similar ranges (But blast has less ap ratio). Enhanced by twin fang it gets a lot better. I don't see how a DoT-focused mage would work with a classic mage playstyle.

Mixing a strong poke and a strong all-in with petrifying gaze doesn't go very well either, which is what you suggested with your generalist kit. Having strong poke forces the opponent to outsustain you, outpoke you or to fight you. Petrifying gaze+twin fang make sure that Cassiopeia wins an all-in. Toplane sees this issue all the time. A melee versus ranged match-up in which the ranged champion can reliably disengage from the melees all-in attempts means the melee champion can't do much. It's hard to outsustain or outpoke constant auto-attack harass. The only thing is that often ranged toplane champions can't reliably disengage due to the tower being quite far away. Having her be a generalist also means she just doesn't get picked unless she's stronger than every other generalist mage or stronger in a specialisation than a specialised mage is in that specialisation.

Agreed. Honestly Cassiopeia WAS hardly picked before her rework, and her pick rate's gone up by like 2% since. About the generalist design; I guess Cassiopeia wasn't so much a generalist before so much as that her flexible build paths allowed her to try to be multiple specialists. One, the Twin Fang DPS mage, the other a poke mage with her poisons. These were the primary two ways to play her, I'm sure there's more. But... I don't know. Looking back on it I feel like Cassiopeia's kit was incredibly synergistic with itself sometimes and other times slightly disjointed. I wonder how much of that synergy was because of her Deadly Cadence passive, you know? (I actually loved it. It contained her mana problems without making her an infinite self sustaining menace like she is in the top lane now) Cassiopeia is a spammy champion. Her passive rewarded spamming while landing your spells. Synergy. But what about her abilties? That's not to say I didn't like Cassiopeia's kit before. I loved it, it was really fun. But cohesion wise... I honestly can't say whether Cassiopeia had one of the most synergistic kits or one of the least.

"Her Q and W spells don't have synergy with E because the poison spells are for poke and zoning and Cassiopeia's E is for DPS. This makes no sense. Is she a mid range poke/zone mage or is she a close range, DPS mage?"

"Cassiopeia's Q and W have great synergy with her E. They allow her to poke and pressure her opponent before she can comfortably go all in and keep up with the movement speed buff and slow."

Of course these two statements are both hypothetical...but I don't know. I don't know quite what we should make of Cassiopeia.

5G8Nri0B543 votes

The issue with focusing a mages power into DoTs is that DoTs are hard to appreciate in LoL. Both you and your enemy can evaluate a burst of damage much better than that same damage over three seconds. This makes it so that a DoT has to deal significant damage or it feels weak.

That's a big load of crock that Riot just uses to justify not having to balance DoT abilities. I mean, okay, maybe those with ADD might not appreciate it, but beyond that, those purple numbers quickly melting through the enemy champion, the fact that they are still being eaten away even after they think they disengaged from you, the ability to kill them as you walk away? To see the enemy gradually melt in front of you? THAT is what DoT offers.

The very fact that there were fans of the Poison Mage play style tells you how much people liked her DoT. The fact that people even bother with Swain and Malzahar at all tells you. And not, people do not play those two champion because of their one single ability that happens to deal a bit of burst damage. Unfortunately neither of them offer what a Poison mage would despite being DoT-centric.

Sneak Dog1 votes

Ok, so some purple 15's popped up, how much damage did I take? Were they half-second or one-second ticks? Was the duration 2s, 3s or even 4s? Huh, the 15's also became 19's halfway through. Instead of just reading a 102 pop up. Neither player *really *knows how much damage the DoT dealt due to health regen/lifesteal/other abilities also having affected the target and with Cassiopeia having variable DoT damage and multiple DoTs.

What is the advantage of a high impact DoT over direct or delayed damage? Is this worth the clarity loss? The only advantages I can think of is when the DoT lasts longer than the abilities cooldown to gate the amount of damage the DoT can deal when poking and the current synergy mechanic on twin fang.

I'd like Cassiopeia being a poison mage, if only just for the sake of having champions filling niches, but just saying that a DoT is just as or more statisfying than burst damage is something I disagree with. So I would not like a DoT where delayed damage would suffice. Could you come up with something else poisony than DoT? Some other way to make her a poison mage rather than simply making all her damage DoTs rather than bursts?

5G8Nri0B543 votes

The only advantages I can think of is when the DoT lasts longer than the abilities cooldown to gate the amount of damage the DoT can deal when poking and the current synergy mechanic on twin fang.

That's one obvious reason. Genrally speaking DoT should deal more damage than burst because it offers more counter-play and disadvantages to straight up instant damage.

There's also the advantage of being able to constantly being inflicting ticks of damage, this goes great against Malphite, MF, etc.

Beyond that, it works in conjunction with items that add effects to spells. And beyond that it simply feels great for those who like that kind of thing.

Ok, so some purple 15s popped up, how much damage did I take? Were they half-second or one-second ticks? Was the duration 2s, 3s or even 4s? Huh, the 5s also became 19s halfway through. Instead of just reading a 102 pop up. Neither player really knows how much damage the DoT dealt due to health regen/lifesteal/other abilities also having affected the target and with Cassiopeia having variable DoT damage and multiple DoTs.

That's what people LIKE about the DoT. It's constantly doing it's own thing.

As far as visibility goes, the issue is less DoT's issues but rather Riot's inability to properly convey it. Want to know it's current damage? Do it like how Dark Souls show poison damage. Want to know the cadence of the damage ticks? Look at the health bar. Want to make being poisoned more visible? Work on the debuff so it's more visible, change health bar colour, turn the champion purple, etc.

TheUltimateSpear2 votes

I agree. With Swain and Malzahar or even Brand or Zyra, sure they have DOTs but these DOTs are just supplements to their burst. Malzahar, for example would be hardly indistinguishable from a typical burst mage if his abilities weren't DOTs because he himself still wants to shred a target in 3 seconds; hardly different from a LeBlanc making a target implode in 1.7 seconds, right? Brand is by far a burst mage, and while Zyra does have decent DOT poke with plants/liandry's, her combo reliance still makes her kills reliant on her decent chunk of burst damage, supplemented by being lesser burst with her plants and that most of it's AOE and of her solid CC. Swain's DOTs are signficant to his damage, yes... but he doesn't have much reason to HAVE them story and thematics wise, you know? Not like Cassiopeia does.

Cassiopeia as an AOE DOT damage dealer would have a unique niche of her own, and while as a high DPS mage she would also have her own niche, I personally think the former has a better tie to her story. Or rather, Cassiopeia's lore gives her a reason to HAVE Dots, unlike most of the other champs who have DOTs... just because they do.

That said, gameplay above all else is important. I still think the partially joking and other completely serious posts about giving Cassiopeia an option to go the routes of her two playstyles is optimal.

5G8Nri0B542 votes

Brand is weird. Like you said, he is supposed to be a burst mage. And in a lot of ways you are correct, he has one of the highest burst **potential **in the game. But that's about where it ends, potential. Maybe it's simply his datedness, or maybe it's the changing meta. But from my own personal experience, building him like a burst mage is rarely the best thing to do. Lately it feels like building him into a tanky poke mage building Rylai's+Liandries is the most realistic choice for Brand. Or play him as a Support where you can use your ADC as a decoy when the jungler comes to gank. The amount of situations where he can reach his amazing potential is...not as common as it should be. But gradually wearing them down by sniping with his Q on the other hand has proven successful.

As for Zyra. She's not supposed to be a burst mage, but rather this was Riot's mistake. Morello even stated he wants to rework Zyra into a more plant-cenric mage, something I'd fully support as THAT is what sets Zyra apart.

Cassiopeia as an AOE DOT damage dealer would have a unique niche of her own, and while as a high DPS mage she would also have her own niche, I personally think the former has a better tie to her story.

Well, like I said before. The two are not mutually exclusive. In fact, in my POV, a fully DoT mage SHOULD be a DPS mage. When I think Poison Mage, I think a mage who can continuously apply poison over and over again and be rewarded with it based upon how long the enemy is poisoned.

TheUltimateSpear1 votes

I see. Oh, do you mean DPS, like counting the DOTs as DPS? Like low cooldown poke DPS? I'd be fine with that too and in fact that's what I want to, I think. So like DOTs as her primary damage, but not like Malzahar where it's functionality is almost identical to burst? At least not primarily.

Sorry, should've said a different STYLE of Dps. (With her poisons as opposed to her Twin Fang)

5G8Nri0B542 votes

Yeah using AoE DoT as widespread DPS. In the short run it's unimpressive, but over time her damage will be unparallelled if she can stick around and manage to spread her poison.

Hell that should have been her kit from the getgo.

Drukyul2 votes

I'd say the playstyle should be somewhat like a snake in that they strike fast and you're dead, even if you don't know it and even if you don't die immediately.

For the most part, her kit fits with this. I don't think Miasma is really a necessary part of her kit as far as that theme goes, so if you wanted to make a theme change in the kit that's where you should look. Maybe instead of a slow it should be some sort of debuff to make it easier for others to finish off the target - something more like Urgot's poison?

5G8Nri0B541 votes

Umm...that's the opposite of a poisonous snake. Have you even fed one before?

They take a nip and wait it out till the hog or rodent is dead, then they go in to eat.

And if they're not poisonous, they don't even bite at all, they just lunge and swallow, the body will do the rest from there.

Drukyul1 votes

I'm not sure how what I said differs from what you're saying. How did you construe it as the opposite?

5G8Nri0B542 votes

You just described a very brutish burst mage.

a snake in that they strike fast and you're dead

Unless you're a REALLY tiny animal, Snakes generally can't do that. In fact, the reason to have venom, outside of self-defence, is because the animal is incapable of killing an animal as fast as that.

Drukyul1 votes

a REALLY tiny animal, Snakes

I dunno, they're not that tiny. Some are actually quite large.

5G8Nri0B541 votes

No, I mean the prey. Unless you (the prey) are a very tiny animal, snakes generally don't do that.

Aspynn2 votes

Best way to fix this is to make 2 champions with the two different gameplay styles they have given to cassiopiea. Give cass back her poison identity and make another champion with powerful stacking and adc like sustained spellcasting. I think Stashu's idea for cass was interesting, but it took away so much from what old cass players knew and loved that many players hated the rework. People are starting to realize now I think that cass is still an okay pick in the meta right now (She's been played in the LCS... Right? Not sure o-o correct me plis) But she isn't the same poison mage. It's super disappointing to chunk someone with your e and have them get away with a smidge of HP only to survive due to cass' pathetic DOT on her poisons.

Hextech Katarina1 votes

in other words damage should be shifted to DoT's not the twin fang. got it.

Silents4291 votes

I. I still don't know what everyone is mad about, I only see complaints about her on just these forums, never from people in game.. And I played her after the rework, and actually liked her..

-Edit- Did some A-holes really downvote me because I enjoyed the current Cass.

5G8Nri0B542 votes

Who the hell complains about anything in-game outside of "my support is shit"?

Oleandervine1 votes

Here's how I would balance Cassiopeia while still keeping her poisons relevant:

Twin Fang: 0.5s CD. Deals X magical damage plus an additional Y damage if the target is poisoned. Each time Twin Fang is cast against the same target, the mana cost and damage is reduced by 20%, stacking to a maximum of 80%.

This way, there's still a machine gun style gameplay element to Twin Fangs, and also an ideal way to use it as a finisher burst. Reducing the damage output and mana cost as it is cast fixes mana problems, her over powered potential, and can allow for more damage to be funneled back into the rest of her kit without damaging either playstyle. This also can allow that awful passive to be changed to something that isn't just a wad of stats.

TaylorGaylor1 votes

All Cassiopeia players who have too much time on there hands:

Oh, Cassieopeia, she's strong now...but who is she really?

Let's make a thousand threads with walls of texts about how we're never going to be satisfied with her.

5G8Nri0B543 votes

All Cassiopeia players who have too much time on there hands:

The moment anyone makes an account and posts in the forums of a video game, they lose the right to ever say something like this.

Also you clearly never heard of sky trains if you think people use their free time to type these threads.

O o b l e c k1 votes

She's a Tunnel Snake and TUNNEL SNAKES RULE

TheUltimateSpear1 votes

^ lol https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cKPGq0t7GB4

More from Story, Art, & Sound

Petition to keep the Bilgewater ARAM map in circulation
Story, Art, & Sound154 comments
1,161
votes
[SUPER IMPORTANT PETITION] Change Sion's ban quote...
Story, Art, & Sound54 comments
597
votes
Can we get an Honor animation?! 4 ways to insult an opponent but none to congratulate them.
Story, Art, & Sound202 comments
578
votes
Petition to make Rengar wiggle his butt when there's a pounce-able target near his bush
Story, Art, & Sound140 comments
476
votes
About this years harrowing...
Story, Art, & Sound357 comments
459
votes
RIOT, please postpone Blood Moon Diana and make it into a Legendary skin.
Story, Art, & Sound236 comments
423
votes

More by TheUltimateSpear

Daily reminder to Riot Stashu that you still haven't kept your word.
Gameplay77 comments
112
votes
Reminder to Riot Stashu that you still haven't kept your word. #2
Gameplay41 comments
80
votes
So I just played as Cassiopeia in the first time in months.
Gameplay111 comments
75
votes
Reminder to Riot Stashu that you still haven't kept your word. #4 Now you're back so please answer.
Gameplay120 comments
71
votes
So, I just played Zyra mid against a Yasuo.
Gameplay72 comments
57
votes
@Riot PLEASE read this! Revert Cassi, there's an easy tweak that would keep her gameplay healthy.
Gameplay58 comments
36
votes