Context: Riot's Commitment to Originality

CupcakeTrap·3/23/2015, 10:50:39 PM·57 votes·7,178 views

http://i182.photobucket.com/albums/x3/msad99/ChosenYiRender.png

People asked for a tl;dr, so I'm giving you two of them.

TL;DR1: Look at the picture above. Imagine Narrative saying, "We can't read community lore because that'd basically be STEALING." If you laugh, you get the gist of this thread.

TL;DR2: Some people think that Narrative is claiming it cannot read fanfic, look at fan art, or read "specific story ideas" (whatever that means) because of professional integrity or legal liability. First off, I don't think they're saying that. Second, if they were saying that, they would be wrong to the point of delusion. And finally, as this thread explains, there would be something really funny about RIOT GAMES expressing anxiety over using other people's ideas (especially when those people are actively shouting, "PLEASE USE MY IDEAS").


There has been some discussion about certain Narrative team members expressing a desire to talk more about core concepts and fundamental themes than specific story ideas. Much digital ink (which is apparently a lovely off-white) has been spilled arguing about what these quotes might mean, with some going so far as to infer that Narrative flies into a panic whenever anyone says something more specific than "I think Garen should really love Demacia," and that it's not so much a preference for big-picture ideas as it is a complete ban on the very mention of actual stories or story elements. I encourage us to continue to seek clarification: does Riot have hard-and-fast rules on this? Is it just that they prefer us to talk in generalities? What about using a community-written story to illustrate an idea, e.g., "I think Jax should be a jokey badass, like in this story that someone wrote, where he's talking with Darius and refuses to say anything that doesn't involve an axe pun."

This is a discussion that should happen, no question. But I'd just like to set forth a little context, before anyone gets too anxious about "accidentally appropriating" community lore. This is primarily a joke: the real reasons why Riot shouldn't be anxious about reading community lore (just like they enjoy looking at community artwork or community Champion concepts) is that it's obviously being put forward with the purpose of enriching the League universe. If someone says, "I wish you portrayed Noxus more like this", and Riot then follows that suggestion, it's hard to imagine anyone finding fault with Riot over it. ("I demand compensation! I asked them to buff Renekton by giving him more base HP, and then they buffed Renekton by giving him more base HP!")

No, this isn't even a list of all the League characters who are obviously references to (or straight-up ripoffs of) well-known characters from other media. (Which is fine, by the way. That's kind of the whole point.) I just want to talk about history.

Every few bullet points, I encourage you to imagine Narrative saying, "Goodness! Our worst nightmare is to appropriate someone else's ideas!"

  • J.R.R. Tolkien took a bunch of myths about elves and such and created a fantasy universe.
  • Gaming appropriated elves, dwarves, orcs, and pretty much everything else to create D&D and various tabletop-esque computer games.
  • (EDIT: DG Ashabel points out that there's actually another step here. Games Workshop made Warhammer, a fantasy wargame that rips off Tolkien's settings and characters. Blizzard was like, "hey, you guys did a really good job ripping off Tolkien, we'd like to rip off your ripoff and make a computer game." However, the deal fell through, so they renamed their Warhammer project into "Warcraft" and published.)
  • Blizzard made Warcraft. It decided to use "central casting", and most of its universe is just a copy-and-paste from this Tolkien-inspired fantasy trope-stock. (EDIT: see note above; apparently, this was actually a higher-order ripoff.)
  • Some fans got together and made a Warcraft (III) mod called Defense of the Ancients (DotA). Most of the characters are stock Warcraft/Tolkien-ish-fantasy characters, with some quirky ornamentation.
  • Some members of the DotA community went off and created DotA All-Stars, and then League of Legends. Most of the characters are carbon copies of DotA heroes. Those that aren't are generally instead from some other well-known source.
  • League creates a universe. The various factions are not exactly hard to "source". You've got Arthurian Shiny Knights, you've got Arthurian Black Knights, you've got steampunk city, you've got X-Men/Shadowrun megacorp-land, you've got a bunch of monsters who are either Zerg or knockoff Lovecraftian horrors, you've got some Vikings, you've got some mermaid people, you've got Fantasy Egypt, and of course you've also got Fantasy Asia.
  • The main novelty is the idea of a "fantasy Babylon 5" or "fantasy European Union": the League of Legends, an international body where states can bring disputes and resolve them through trial by combat. They write in a history of "magical WMDs" to explain the creation of the League, a rather original re-casting of the "Mutually Assured Destruction" scenario in fantasy rather than historical or science fiction context. This is quite intriguing: how might a fantasy EU/UN/WTO/whatever work differently than a sci-fi one or the historical examples, for instance? It's also a great source of political drama, as this fledgling League of Legends struggles to maintain legitimacy and keep the great powers of Valoran from destroying the planet.
  • (Riot then decides to retcon that whole League thing.)
  • Riot also makes most of its money off of skins, many of which are meant to make a character who's already a fairly direct ripoff from another source appear to be a ripoff from a completely separate source…or sometimes just to make the original ripoff even clearer. ("Hey, what if we took our character who's basically Indiana Jones plus Mega Man, and then made an Indiana Jones skin…and then also a Mega Man skin?" Or, say, "What if we took Dr. Mundo, and made a skin where he's Hulk-green?")
  • Some recent characters include a Miyazaki ripoff complete with Mononoke bobblehead minions, a sandworm from Dune, a Greek Fury, and freaking Ra the God of the freaking Sun.

I mean all this quite affectionately. As I've written elsewhere, I think League draws a lot of its strength from its tropeyness. It's easier for people to get into the setting when they instinctively recognize most of these characters. It's an amateurish mistake for writers to obsess about novelty and showing how clever and original they are; great authors know that it's about telling a compelling story and immersing the reader. These characters resonate largely because they tap into such deep reservoirs of cultural understanding. Flash up a picture of (League's) Wukong and people recognize, hey, he's going to be some kind of clever trickster with magical powers, and he's probably from Fantasy Asia.

I can't emphasize enough that I don't mean this as an attack. There's a saying: "Bad authors 'borrow' from others. Good authors steal." The question is not whether Bard is a Miyazaki ripoff, but whether he's a good Miyazaki ripoff, whether Riot is using that character type to do something interesting and immersive. Novelty is nice, sure. But what often matters more is what you do with the trope, archetype, or outright ripoff. You can go construct a fantasy universe completely out of stock Tolkien elements, and then (depending on how you write it) end up with either an awe-inspiring, amazing, even revolutionary work of literary brilliance, or a forgettable knockoff. Replacing elves with "the Yularioni", who are part squid, and sometimes travel through time, and have three arms, and blah blah blah blah, may not only fail to add much, but may in fact be a serious mistake, because now the reader is focusing on trying to understand what these creatures are rather than following the story. Maybe you should drop the six chapters of exposition about how your protagonist fits into Yularioni culture, when the end result is simply "she's magical and immortal, and loves nature"; maybe you should just refer to her as an elven enchantress and, in a single phrase, convey to the reader who this character basically is so you can tell her story, rather than the story of what she is or where she's from. (A more modest version: if you want your characters to eat a small tasty animal that's kind of cute, maybe rather than explaining what a "smeerp" is, you should just say they eat a rabbit, and chalk it up to a translation convention.) So while I might tease Riot a bit, no, I do not think it's a problem that they borrow so freely from other sources. (In the spirit of full disclosure, I myself have spent a ton of time writing League fanfic, so it's not like I'd be in any position to argue against derivative works.)

Although I do indeed mean it affectionately, I've got to add a final bullet point:

  • In the midst of a crisis over lack of community engagement, Rioters express anxiety about community members sharing ideas, even when the author of the work is the one sharing it while expressly urging Riot to adopt their ideas, because they don't want to even accidentally appropriate anyone's ideas.

Let's just keep this in context, people.

64 Comments

Xulsigae3/24/2015, 12:03:36 AM18 votes

It's most puzzling to me for Narrative to ignore the precedent both in general and in Riot for taking inspiration and ideas from peers and previous stories. There are dozens of instances of summoners affecting what happened in a story or what a champion detail was. Viktor's story, Lux's ult name and others come to mind. What makes it wrong for us now to try and have an influence in what happens in Narrative? We used to do it relatively often. Nothing major but still tangible. What makes it wrong for us to influence gameplay and art and other aspects of League but not the story? Does Morello find it stomach-churning to listen to what we think of how powerful a champion is? Does Lyte feel that feedback from those he works to improve the gameplay experience for is somehow a bad thing? I don't think so.

Narrative seems to be the black sheep now of departments. It went from very interactive with those it produced for to pretty much naught. Other departments change things often to appeal to the players. Abilities that don't feel good, art that doesn't look good, pricing that is meh, report functions that don't really do much, these all get tweaked at some point. Stories that feel meh? Those are not to be touched it seems. If they are being changed, it's usually quite hush-hush compared to most other departments. What makes Narrative different?

Also when it comes to player created content being incorporated into Riot productions, were not the TPA skins fan created at first and then bought and modified by Riot? When fans create songs, hats, models and such to show to Riot, isn't that Riot taking their ideas and showing them off for others to see with credit? I know they don't affect the lore, but they still are examples of people creating things and not demanding a reward beyond 'Yay my stuff got seen or heard by millions!' I miss Nikasaur...

Nybx4life3/23/2015, 11:32:49 PM9 votes

Quite a read, and an interesting point to be made. Honestly, I agree 100% with what you're saying. I feel there's no shame in having champs be inspired from other sources. Novel champs are fine, but when you go way far out trying to figure them out, or make the character complex, it makes them weird.

I hope it eases the tensions a bit, or maybe they can meet the fans here halfway.

junglerboy163/24/2015, 12:19:57 AM9 votes

There is another common saying that Riot's creative writers need to keep in mind: "There is nothing new under the sun." Literally every single idea a human being has is based on an amalgamation of things they have sensed in some other way, either through something they saw, or smelled or tasted or heard, and then they think up something interesting based on it (even in the world of Science and math, everything we know now is based off of extrapolation based on a select few given starting points). Of course there are things in the world that have yet to be discovered (new species of plants and animals are still discovered quite regularly), but anything that a creative writer imagines is going to be based off of something they have experienced, so saying "we can't make official stories based on fan fiction ideas" (or even just story suggestions for the new lore) is quite frankly BS. I know as an artist that it is a point of pride to be original and imaginative with your art, but creative writing (and art as a whole) is beautiful based on how well it captures the goal of the artist/writer. When I drew a pair of chickadees eating thistle seeds and made a print out of it a couple weeks ago, it was the most beautiful print I have ever made to date, yet it was based on a rather mundane topic.

Copyright laws do mean that direct plagiarism is illegal, however, taking inspiration from community ideas is not, and Jaredan and his narrative team are trying to construe the legalese in a way that they can keep thinking they are being original. Guess what? Your brand new lore (whenever you actually finish it) will be about as original as if you read fan fiction to write it. You are really not getting it if you think otherwise. You know what else narrative team? Nobody in your player base will give a rip about the new lore, because they know you could have involved them and let them be part of something great, when you instead go all "it disgusts us when we write something and find out somebody else wrote something like that first" on us.

Get over your egos Narrative team. We don't want some shiny new lore that you think is perfect, we want a lore that we ALL enjoy and ALL can say "I was a part of that amazing creation". Beauty is determined by how well the master piece reflects the goals of the artist, but also the goals and standards of the audience. Let us in on the new lore or else be prepared for even more backlash when we all come out and say "you know what? this is ok, but it could have been SO much better!"

This is my first rant about lore since the retcon, so sorry for the wall of text, I'm not particularly good at concise ranting.

UPfreely3/24/2015, 4:23:11 AM8 votes

riot plz do a retcon retcon

KING OF MASKS3/24/2015, 5:20:41 PM6 votes
Impetual3/24/2015, 7:41:12 AM4 votes

CupcakeTrap, you have once again created an amazing post that I totally agree with!

Well said!

Tesla Effect3/24/2015, 1:29:12 AM4 votes

Whats the difference for Riot between taking inspirations from something and ripping off something?

The Stoic Hero3/24/2015, 2:09:46 AM3 votes

I have not seen anyone articulate this so well. Thank you.

Killer of Poros3/24/2015, 12:56:23 AM3 votes

Rito CoughPantheon* Cough* please So how much does Zack Snyder get from Riot through royalties.

On a much more serious note I think riot needs to reform their current views on narrative and lore. They have so much potential that they seem to be throwing out the windows because of these current views on communication and story.

Crate of Cobras3/24/2015, 1:37:03 AM3 votes

Yeah man, same with Magic the Gathering. The design team has little actual creative integrity. But they know that skins and champions based on pre-existing material will sell, because they're proven concepts that are popular with nerds. Miyazaki Bard and Star Wars Yi are good examples.

kolpy993/24/2015, 9:20:56 PM3 votes

It's funny because no matter how much people agree with you, there is not going to be a single riot comment. They're like children, easily offended and ignore the subjects they dont agree with

DG Ashabel3/24/2015, 7:12:35 AM2 votes

Gaming appropriated elves, dwarves, orcs, and pretty much everything else to create D&D and various tabletop-esque computer games. Blizzard made Warcraft. It decided to use "central casting", and most of its universe is just a copy-and-paste from this Tolkien-inspired fantasy trope-stock.

Just a small correction to this step. It should actually be three steps.

As you said, first happened Tolkien and then D&D. Then this cool company called Games Workshop made Warhammer, which was basically D&D but with collectible figurines instead of rulebooks because those sold better to collectors. Blizzard were huge fans of Warhammer and decided they want to make a game based on it, and entered negotiations with GW in order to produce a real-time strategy. However, GW becoming increasingly harder to work with, combined with Blizzard's foul experiences with big publishers (they had some awful dealings with DC Comics at the time) made them lose interest in pursuing that partnership. They hastily remade Warhammer just enough to avoid a lawsuit, then pushed it out as WarCraft. The rest is history.

So once you consider that League of Legends is a game inhabited largely by rip-offs of famous characters and inspired by DOTA, which is a mod of Warcraft III, which is in turn an acknowledged rip-off of Warhammer (and Dune 2 but that's another story), which is a marketability-driven rip-off of D&D, which in turn is an attempt to take popular fantasy tropes and unify them into a tabletop game, you do begin to wonder which leg the narrative team's argument is supposed to stand on.

I mean, guys, you are making a clone of a mod of a rip-off of a rip-off of a tabletop intentionally riddled with cliches and rip-offs. Your clone is also populated by a variety of rip-offs from other sources. I don't think anyone will judge you for ripping things off so long as it's not as awkwardly soulless as Xerath's new bio is.

Proelium3/24/2015, 12:12:55 AM2 votes

Don't forget that League took names of RL places to name it's locations.

Noxus, Ionia, etc.

The Soulforged3/25/2015, 5:57:39 AM2 votes

Yeah. Lore has become this pool of champions with ideas for their backstory that we can't read yet, with no interactions between those not closely related. Lore is full of characters with no stories between them.

Maple Crusader3/24/2015, 6:11:12 AM2 votes

So Noxus is "Nox" or "Noxious", perhaps the Roman or German Empire? Zaun is German for "Fence", so it's Germany or Eastern European? Mt. Targon is definitely ancient Sparta. Ionia is a mixture of the ancient Mediterraean and Asia. Not sure what Demacia and Piltover's real life counterparts are.

TheSaltyScourge3/24/2015, 1:05:45 AM1 votes

[deleted]

patmax173/24/2015, 9:22:58 AM1 votes

If property claims are the problem, what if Riot made a place (a website? a subforum?) where people can submit LoL-related content (be it concepts, fan arts, fan fictions, skin ideas, whatever) with the specific purpose of being used by riot? I imagine something like deviantart, where, when you upload a new piece of content, you accept an agreement (written by riot) that sets the right legal ground to avoid problems. Kinda like "by posting this here I accept that my idea can be used by Riot to be integrated in League of Legends" (with all needed nuances). On deviantart, when you upload a new deviation, you can chose the licence you are publishing it under....