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Riot an Idea for future lore/gameplay reworks, that would increase interactivity, and prevent Varus.

Skorch··39 votes·1,757 views

Well situations like Varus'

Whenever you announce a rework whether lore or gameplay, and I mean ANNOUNCE, as in you know that you are doing it. This is to prevent a argument of "We dont want to do this in case plans change" This is for when its guaranteed. Pin a post on the boards. Post on Reddit, ask people on social media etc... What they think is the most important aspect a champion is. I dont think this wouldve prevented Varus from happening, but at least people would feel like they have a say. For instance:

Riot post: We just announced we are reworking Irelia. Players what do you think is the most important part of her kit. Players: Well her high mobility, bruisery-ness, and that Frostbooty Irelia. Rioters to other Rioters: So we need to keep her mobility and a similar playstyle. And most imporantly FROSTBOOTY IRELIA.

Example 2: Riot Post: We are updating [these] champions lore soon what do you players think? Varus Main: His self sacrifice and his dilemma with him being the cause of his families death. Nautilus Main: He has the best Revenge story IMO of all the champions, so keep that part the same. Shaco Main: SOMETHING ANYTHING PLEASE GOD

Something like this would allow Riot plenty of feedback on what players want. As well as not making empty promises. Please Riot start doing it so that people are content with their MAINS being changed.

53 Comments

Beyond Legends8 votes

Pointless in my opinion, although the change with varus was suprising with regards to varus. The main will never be happy with any change, it's the very nature of a retcon.

Trying to appease everyone will only land in disaster. It's better if they don't listen to the community, because the only ever answer you ever get is don't change anyrhing.

Look at Viktor lol. Old lore fan will never be happy with the change, Riot should just focus on rebuilding the new base. Eventually the old lore nut will dies out and replace with a new set of people who care for the new lore.

The Anagram King13 votes

Sion rework was well received.

Beyond Legends10 votes

Sion had no character in the old lore. He was basicly a random dead zombie general.

The Anagram King2 votes

And he still is.

Beyond Legends9 votes

I wouldn't call boram old best friend that manage to strangle Jarvan the first in his hand a random undead general.

The Anagram King3 votes

Oh? A friendship line and a kill counter is enough to completely redefine a character? That'd be a fun way to approach lore updates, for sure. Who should Varus have killed and been friends with, do you think?

It's definitely a winning formula. I loved the Sion lore update.

Beyond Legends4 votes

You can't redefine a character when the previous version has no character. Tell me did Old sion had a character other than some random ass dude who got revived.

The Anagram King6 votes

He was an Arnold Schwartzeneggar zombie with an axe.

Yes, he was redefined. lol.

Beyond Legends5 votes

Arnold Schwartzeneggar zombie with a axe is not a character. It's basicly a shitty character archetype like how old pantheon was shitty spartan archetype

The Anagram King2 votes

That's probably the reason why he was slated so early for a lore update.

What do you think you're arguing? =P

Beyond Legends4 votes

No he was slated early because his kit was bonkers with half being ap and other being ad.

Also even then people complained about old sions kit being changed.

The Anagram King2 votes

This thread is about lore. :P

Beyond Legends4 votes

His lore got change as an after effect of his vgu. Pretty sure the narrative team hasn't even beem fully asembled then.

NikeyMoney1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Beyond Legends,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=IGyY24Pq,comment-id=0001000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2017-12-02T11:51:00.012+0000)

You can't redefine a character when the previous version has no character. Tell me did Old sion had a character other than some random ass dude who got revived.

he was the best noxian general and then he went into a fight he couldn't win so the crazy UrGod decided to take his corpse and reanimate it into an even scarier version of it's former self that could stun lock then explode blood and guts then use it's ult to hack and slash it's way to victory.

resumed1 votes

neither did varus. hes no longer a random guy in ionia with a nameless deadwife and a pit

Skorch9 votes

I disagree, sure there would always be people that say DONT CHANG ANYTHING. But there are plenty of people that understand and even WANT an update. People have been BEGGING riot for a Nunu rework, and people would jump to say what shouldnt be changed. For instance his counterjungling.

Or Yasuo, IMO his Q E and R interactions shouldnt change. But his P and W probably should.

Beyond Legends3 votes

I thought this about champiom characterization not kit balancing.

Skorch6 votes

It goes both ways, both in kits, and lore. What is important. Typcially people will sum it up in 1 to 2 sentances. Meaning riot has space to work off. There still will be the "ITS PERFECT" people though.

Beyond Legends3 votes

With lore that's not the case. Just look at Viktor lol. Riot basicly kept most of his character in tact and people still complain. As for Varus, sure it was large depature from his old lore but it's not uncommon for riot to completely change old character in favour of new narratives. It's fact people should know by now.

LankPants3 votes

Pointless in my opinion, although the change with varus was suprising with regards to varus. The main will never be happy with any change, it's the very nature of a retcon.

No shit, retcons are destructive and by their nature poor writing. A better writer would simply find a way to make a better story within their existing framework rather than needing to make themselves a new framework. It's almost always better to expand on what exists rather than calling a do-over just because you had a different idea.

Beyond Legends2 votes

Yawn only a two bit fanfic writing could see any potential in that mess.

Placentas3 votes

You basically reiterated what a Rioter has said. They don't care about appealing to everyone a this point, they've been on the boards & reddit and have witnessed the endless bitching. And I use bitching specifically because most of it is, it isn't constructive or respectful.

So fuck it, they'll do what they think is the right direction. And I think that's great honestly.

I started the game to play Voli and really liked his old lore. From what we can see, his new lore makes him a demi-god, huge difference from old lore.

But honestly...-shrug- I am excited to see where they take him. The old lore were basically blurbs, so is there really that much at stake with retconning them? Maybe to people with non-removable nostalgia glasses.

The Anagram King6 votes

They sorta' did this with Viktor, and sorta screwed him up anyways.

They also did it with Urgot. And though the feedback indicated that the fanbase liked nightmare/grotesquegot, he didn't really get that. Also he became an anarchist, which was very out of left-field.

I saw someone else post this after the Varus lore reveal, and I'm going to echo it:

"Don't get attached to the old lore. Riot's going to ruin your favourite character."

It's not a matter of if, but when. And the more you obsess over a character, the worse it'll be. :P

Skorch16 votes

Honestly i like new urgot, the Anarchy thing WAS kind of out of nowhere. But old Urgots only lines were pretty much "Life is suffering" So they had a lot to work with.

And while Riot trashing characters always suck. It would at least feel better if they knew where to start instead of: I THINK this is the old champion. When they are completely ignorant of the thing that the MAINS of said like.

The Anagram King2 votes

New Urgot's okay - I don't mind him (the quotes are sort've cheesy :P). I wasn't using him as an example of a bad effort, but rather an example of asking for feedback on a character's thematic direction, then ignoring it.

I also agree with you about old champs. Copy pasting a story, isn't the same as capturing the same emotions an old story conveyed. New Varus is VERY similar to old varus, but they've managed to completely flop the emotional attachment. It simply does not exist, the way it used to.

I can relate, because the same happened to Vik (who I will bring up in like 75% of forum posts). It doesn't feel nice, to identify or appreciate a piece of a story (or personality), only to have it wrenched and replaced; then ignored for years and years.

Does it even serve a grander purpose? That's the worst part, I think. Leaving something a player used to like to collect dust in a corner. =p

LankPants8 votes

To be honest I'm just sick of the removal of grey and morally ambiguous characters from the lore.

Varus in his old lore was a tragic villain or an anti-hero depending on your stance, in his new lore he's basically just outright evil. This is a trend Riot has repeated over and over. A characters actions being justifiable in some way is important for keeping them relatable, even a character like Syndra isn't as bad as she could be because of her tragic backstory. When a character is pure evil they're honestly just less interesting.

Skorch3 votes

I still dont see the morally grey argument. Like Varus is probably the only one that i can think of that went from somewhat grey to villian.

ModAcademy Kayn1 votes

His sense of agency is literally "I want to kill Noxians".

Skorch1 votes

But all "grey" characters typically arent really "Grey" I saw someone saying Xerath was a morally "Grey" character. Typically a lot of once loved characters arent actually "morally grey" They are just true evil characters with really good reasons, before and after the overhaul.

Darrosh Jewfist5 votes

People generally don't know what they want. Like, if you had sat down a bunch of people in committee at large - you'd never get things like the Marvel Cinematic Universe or Overwatch. Oh jeez, a billionaire playboy in a suit saving the world? That's a batman rip off. Guy who is frozen for years from WW2 and is a super soldier? So contrived/dated. Uh, Norse gods exist? Wtf is this timeline even, lmao! Billionare mecha-suit guy, a living legend, a demi-god, a guy with anger management issues, and a couple master assassins? So lame and forced. It'd never work.

I think if Riot executed their stories better, as the MCU has done, they could silence a lot of hate. Honestly, the new Varus story wasn't told very well - especially Act I of the comics.

ltmetal3 votes

Riot Post: We are updating [Shaco] lore soon what do you think. Shaco Main: SOMETHING ANYTHING PLEASE GOD

I'm still laughing about this 12 hours later.

Quepha2 votes

That is a thing they said they would do a long time ago.

It is a thing they did for a while.

Then they stopped doing it. They're just going to forget again.

Wrathof3001 votes

They will just end up having to pick and choose aspects from each person suggestions. And they'd eventually end up with something worse than how bad the community 'claims' this change was.

Skorch8 votes

i dont think it would be WORSE but at the very least they would know where to start. Because right now it feels like they are so in new lore, that they forget what people liked at all about older champions.

Dreamspitter1 votes

{quoted}

Well situations like Varus'

Whenever you announce a rework whether lore or gameplay, and I mean ANNOUNCE, as in you know that you are doing it. This is to prevent a argument of "We dont want to do this in case plans change" This is for when its guaranteed. Pin a post on the boards. Post on Reddit, ask people on social media etc... What they think is the most important aspect a champion is. I dont think this wouldve prevented Varus from happening, but at least people would feel like they have a say. For instance:

Riot post: We just announced we are reworking Irelia. Players what do you think is the most important part of her kit. Players: Well her high mobility, bruisery-ness, and that Frostbooty Irelia. Rioters to other Rioters: So we need to keep her mobility and a similar playstyle. And most imporantly FROSTBOOTY IRELIA.

Example 2: Riot Post: We are updating [these] champions lore soon what do you players think? Varus Main: His self sacrifice and his dilemma with him being the cause of his families death. Nautilus Main: He has the best Revenge story IMO of all the champions, so keep that part the same. Shaco Main: SOMETHING ANYTHING PLEASE GOD

Something like this would allow Riot plenty of feedback on what players want. As well as not making empty promises. Please Riot start doing it so that people are content with their MAINS being changed.

Shaco: Evil clown trickster with traps. Heath Ledger's Joker. Oh, and his vgu dance needs to be Pennywise new dance.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SpnWwqwwkTU

TequilaZombie2 votes

Shaco Main: SOMETHING ANYTHING PLEASE GOD

I just burst out in laughter at this point, and then cried a little.

I can't help but wonder on how Riot will mess up when they finally touch him.

M00ndanc32 votes

as of right now shaco's bio says he is a living marionette created for a prince but once the prince died he lost his purpose and went insane. Now he roames runterra killing people with toys and playful games because he believes its hillarious

Dreamspitter1 votes

{quoted}

as of right now shaco's bio says he is a living marionette created for a prince but once the prince died he lost his purpose and went insane. Now he roames runterra killing people with toys and playful games because he believes its hillarious

** "Haven't I taught you anything? What have I always told you? Never trust anything that can think for itself if you can't see where it keeps its brain!”** ― Mr. Weasley, Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets

Shaco Fiddlesticks Galio Blitzcrank

I wonder if there is a whole class of construct entities?

resumed1 votes

a lot of the time community input can be detrimental. most of the players wont contribute and the rest of the players will want something stupid. the community here will still complain. because each person has their own idea for how the lore should work, apparently.

i cannot say that the lore updates have changed league of legends for worse. even the vastaya update, which made so many people mad. i was just happy that nami was allowed to appear in special interactions videos now, and that she had a definite place in the world. in fact, several of the main champions i play have had their lore massively changed several times and each iteration was more organized and much more thought through than the last.

i have no faith in en masse community input. ive seen the fruit it produces. its nasty. careful consideration must be done with any community involvement

Dreamspitter1 votes

{quoted}

a lot of the time community input can be detrimental. most of the players wont contribute and the rest of the players will want something stupid. the community here will still complain. because each person has their own idea for how the lore should work, apparently.

i cannot say that the lore updates have changed league of legends for worse. even the vastaya update, which made so many people mad. i was just happy that nami was allowed to appear in special interactions videos now, and that she had a definite place in the world. in fact, several of the main champions i play have had their lore massively changed several times and each iteration was more organized and much more thought through than the last.

i have no faith in en masse community input. ive seen the fruit it produces. its nasty. careful consideration must be done with any community involvement

Produced fruit like.........what?

resumed1 votes

type this into google for me

define: analogy

Dreamspitter1 votes

{quoted}

type this into google for me

define: analogy

No. I'm asking for real life examples.

resumed1 votes

maybe you should've said that if thats what you wanted

Dreamspitter1 votes

{quoted}

maybe you should've said that if thats what you wanted

That's just what I did.

You say "I've seen the fruits this produces."

I say, "Fruit like WHAT?"

And the only natural response is for you to then give me examples.

resumed1 votes

im not going to argue the semantics of the language you used, but i will ask you this very simple question:

are you just completely unaware that imprecise or vague language use on the internet can lead someone to read the same sentence someone else and interpret it differently?

i have no reason to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you knew what i was talking about with the fruit comment, especially with all the elipses. so i didn't.

Skorch1 votes

I mean yeah a community would NEVER agree wholeheartedly on a situation. But it feels like ESPECIALLY THIS TIME Riot was pretty far off what most people wanted. To be honest ive never seen the boards as unanimously opposed to something even when Yasuo is strong. Im not saying the lore change was BAD. But being able to for sure at least know Riot HEARD input would at least give them somewhere to start.

As i said in another comment, It feels like for a lot of old lore, Riot had dabbled in new lore so long that they dont even know what players like of older characters anymore.

resumed1 votes

what most people want isnt often whats for the best, though. with the new currency system and all its controversy ive been able to convince a few of my friends to play league or convince a few people to come back to it. the new player experience is the best its been probably since it first launches and still you have people claiming its awful.

trundle lore change was another one. he was an ugly eyesore that didnt fit anywhere. only recently did people find a new appreciation for it with the new splash art, and even then its mostly people joking about how sensual the pictures dynamic comes off as.

a lot of old lore is absolute garbage as well. i can only hope that any of the champions i play that have horrible lore spots like morgana or soraka get anywhere close to the attention to detail varus and trundle got

Skorch1 votes

1 sentance of what you think is important of a character isnt going to be people saying everything is perfect. That is the assumption you are making. Sure some will say its perfect. But A LOT of people will give actual feedback.

And on the currency thing i still think the new system is garbage. AT THE VERY LEAST because it feels like riot is flat lying to us. The game and new player experience is fantastic and fun right now... yes. but BE feels awful.

resumed1 votes

everything can be improved upon, no perfection needed. we just need to identify when "it could be better" isnt a valid criticism anymore

yeah i dont like not getting things after every game, but its a lot better than in something like hots where the system gives you less than 50 gold a match when new heroes are so expensive. in league buying new champions has never been easier and i already have all the champions i want

Skorch1 votes

by all the champion you want what do you mean? Because i went from level 30-37 and have got 1 chibi icon and am still 2 levels away from a single 6300

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