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The DBZ/Bleach/Naruto Problem - The Issue of Power Levels

Darrosh Jewfist·3/9/2015, 6:35:57 AM·17 votes·3,345 views

A problem in a lot of battle manga is the escalating abilities of characters. So much so that in DBZ, Bleach, and Naruto there are characters that can literally annihilate entire worlds.

So it renders the common foot soldier rather... obsolete. Like, why do these guys exist if a single Bleach Captain is capable of annihilating an entire squad sans Captain?

Watching the Bard Video, this issue came up between me and my friends - doesn't the magic artifact kind of make Bard a bit more powerful than say... Rengar who's basically just a lion-man with bone weapons and jumps really far? Rengar doesn't have magic but can Rengar survive a direct hit from a magic orb laser? Can Darius? I mean, if the orb can annihilate a couple of Noxian soldiers - what makes Darius special?

Can Bard survive a laser shot? He certainly has the power to handle it and ascend to the heavens with it.

How exactly would a Darius and Bard fight play out?

Who has the greater power level between Kalista or Rek'Sai?

I mean, one thing that's great about the worldbuilding in Game of Thrones is the fact that there's numerous fighters where you have a pretty solid idea of how they'd fare. There's even a scene in the television series where soldiers are discussing who's the best swordsmen of their time. This leads to a lot of healthy speculation based on prior accomplishments and so forth.

But these League champions basically have none of that.

They're not explained what they can do or what they cannot do in their most extremes.

It's harder with magic, and it's harder with pseudo-demi-gods who have access to mountain melting weapons compared to Darius who is just a tough guy with an axe with no history of magic-surviving abilities.

;_;

I hope Riot sits down and considers the implications of their character's overall power and level in the lore. For example, the soon-to-be-here Ao Shin is a dragon that controls the weather. That's a bit over the top compared to say, Xin Zhao who's just a really good gladiator fighter with a spear, eh?

34 Comments

CupcakeTrap3/9/2015, 6:16:22 PM10 votes

Hey Darrosh! How's it going?

Actually, before getting to the "why do mooks matter", I think there's a problem explaining why Champions matter. My own head-canon for this is that Champions are kind of like D&D PCs, or Slayers in Buffy: they're empowered by some kind of extraplanar energy that allows them to go above and beyond mortal limits. Put another way, I don't think magic on Runeterra is limited to "mages" as such. I imagine that people sometimes get hit with a surge of power and go Super-Saiyan become Champions, often but not always in the midst of a crisis. So, maybe Lux was a pretty typical mage, and then bam, one day, she power-spikes and becomes a Champion.

In other words, I think that "Champion" is an in-universe term, and not just as a way to refer to people who rep their factions in the League (or whatever happens now post-retcon) or are famous for being skilled fighters. Rather, I think it's pretty obvious in-universe that (say) Garen is not just "a guy who's really good at swordfighting" but a superhuman Champion who could fight his way through dozens of lesser warriors. It would also allow you to have a fight between Caitlyn and Master Yi that wouldn't look like:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7YyBtMxZgQs

It's similar to the headcanon I have for most comic book settings: I assume that part of the "fantasy" of the setting is that chi/ki is real, and spending a decade training with monks in the Himalayas doesn't just teach you some obsolete hand-to-hand fighting skills but turns you into a superhuman warrior. So of course Batman can jump out the window, catch his love interest midair, and absorb the impact of the multi-story drop onto a car without being horribly mangled. There's no RL martial arts technique for surviving that, but in comic book martial arts, all those myths about iron body training or whatever are true. This also explains why some dude can not only get good at punching people, but get SO good that they can fight a dozen gun-wielding thugs bare-handed and win.

I don't think this is that crazy. It just requires the acknowledgement that not all "magic" comes in the form of a person in flowing robes casting a spell from a spellbook.

So why aren't mooks obsolete?

I don't, however, think Champions are so amazingly powerful that they render actual armies obsolete. I've been talking about Warhammer too much lately, but…this was a major theme in Warhammer Fantasy. Heroes were awesome, and could even kill a shocking number of gumby troopers on their own, but the rules made it so that heroes plus mooks were a lot better than just heroes or just mooks.

I assume that Champions lead by example. They're elites who can intervene at critical moments to support the rank-and-file. And very often, in big battles, Champions wind up dueling each other to sort of cancel one another out.

In that Factions update I wrote about the Battle of Shurima, I had Swain comment on this topic:

“How do you kill a hero? You kill everyone else first. Do not waste your time with Champions and Summoners. Your first target will be the Demacian men-at-arms. They are here because their lords have commanded it. They are slaves, and they are already tired. They obey because they are afraid not to. You must give them something more terrifying than the useless pony-riding aristocrats yelling at them not to run away when they set eyes on two veteran Noxian legions flanked by the Executioners and the Nightmare Cavalry.” Swain stamped his cane into the floor of the gate complex. “I trust you are up to the task!” Shouts of BLOOD FOR NOXUS and STRENGTH ABOVE ALL filled the room.

—Hextech Revolution Update 9: The HexKorps

Champions are powerful, but they can't actually fight a war single-handedly. Their role in big battles is to inspire the common soldiers and to intervene where their strength will be most valuable.

Could (say) Garen kill a whole squad of Noxian soldiers? Yeah, probably. But if it's Garen and five hundred Demacians against three thousand non-Champion Noxians, the Demacians are almost certainly going to lose. He's not an army. He can try to kill the Noxian commander. He can fight side-by-side in the front ranks and keep Demacian morale up. But there's only so much that a Champion can do. Pretty soon, it's going to be him alone against thousands of Noxians.

So, I think Champions are pretty powerful, but they're not like DBZ characters who can obliterate entire armies with a wave of their hand, and whose only real rivals are other super-mega-energy-blasting-hidden-power-level aliens.

KING OF MASKS3/10/2015, 8:22:04 AM7 votes

Remember when there was a system that explained the discrepancy between champion power levels?

I think it was called a "League" of something. Pretty sure there was some kind of Institute involved, too.

libraryseraph 3/9/2015, 9:42:20 PM4 votes

Well, when summoner's rift still existed you could say the summoners magically altered champions' abilities to give them all a level playing field, but recent changes to the lore have made that impossible

Jeddy0173/9/2015, 1:47:47 PM4 votes

http://youtu.be/BsMSiVn6vpQ

Just wanted to say that.

The Whamboozler3/12/2015, 6:05:14 AM3 votes

Well, given the way the lore works... Darius and Bard aren't really fighting anymore. Matches don't have a place in the lore. There's no longer an in-lore excuse for why a team of Lucian, Braum, Zed, Kennen and Vi are fighting a team of Lissandra, Xin Zhao, Xerath, Tristana and Janna. Bard is an unknowable cosmic entity that does things for reasons. And he plays the flute. Why is he fighting Darius? Well, in the lore he won't. I doubt we'll even learn much more about the fat flute man beyond "he's mysterious and stuff". Why would he be helping Caitlyn kill Ashe in bot lane? No reason. Why would he be randomly slapping around mortals at all? No reason. Why can't be blow them all up with his boss cosmic powers? No reason.

At this point, they may as well say that league matches all take place in the deranged mind of some random lunatic in an asylum in Zaun or something. He keeps babbling about that time that Jax and Rek'sai fought Fiddlesticks and Ezreal, and how Ezreal failed to arcane shift over a wall... then Jax killed him with a lamp post and Fiddlesticks called him a noob. The lore now has no connection at ALL to the game. And considering it's the lore OF a game, that's a pretty sad thing to say. Most of the new lore just boils down to "This champion is a thing that exists. He/she/it is all powerful and stuff. Wow." anyways.

No real point in worrying how lore questions matter in the least anymore. Riot's answer has been a pretty firm "They don't".

Matezoide3/9/2015, 10:02:40 PM3 votes

The league doesnt exist anymore. The gameplay itself isnt canon, so the difference in power does not matter.

It is literally no different than a kid playing with action figures and having Spider-Man beating the shit out of Superman, Hulk and Thor at the same time.

Even before the great retcon, i sorta assumed the League used their powers to nerf/buff champions for matches (With the champion's agreement, of course) so they can be on even ground power-wise. Otherwise the likes of Cho'Gath, Mordekaiser and Nasus would be pretty much invencible.

Narasimha3/9/2015, 3:19:59 PM2 votes

So it renders the common foot soldier rather... obsolete. Like, why do these guys exist if a single Bleach Captain is capable of annihilating an entire squad sans Captain?

Because even Captains don't have infinite power. Throw enough mooks at them, and they'll be exhausted. You use mooks against mooks, and heroes against heroes.

what makes Darius special?

Its not like being a higher rank suddenly gives you magic immunity. At his core, Darius is just a very experienced, very strong human.

How exactly would a Darius and Bard fight play out?

Darius : STOP DANCING AROUND! GET BACK HERE! AND GET THESE DAMN THINGS OFF ME!!! Bard: ......

Who has the greater power level between Kalista or Rek'Sai?

Definitely Kalista. Rek'sai is strong, but ultimately just a beast. Kalista is closer to a Force of Nature.

They're not explained what they can do or what they cannot do in their most extremes.

It makes sense in GoT, because all you're doing is explaining who's the best swordsman. Its easy to figure that out. But when you start throwing in magic and other dimensions, it no longer becomes a simple scale.

SaltyToplaneGoat3/9/2015, 2:20:57 PM1 votes

I think it's ok for some characters to dive a bit into the divinity-theme. As long as there are logical reasons to how their power is restricted or why don't just kill everyone. Is there some kind of "cosmic rule set" in place that prevents direct influence for some beings? We don't know...

On the other hand this question is like: what is the point of having any normal human characters if MF and Graves just shoot everyone? The answer is: magic. Valron's technology differs to ours, especially when it comes to defensive tech. There IS the equivalent to a bulltetproof west (enchanted armor), but there is also armor specially against magic. And for dudes like rengar those enchantments are basic equipments, because hunting without those would be too dangerous. It would be like running into the battlefield naked.

GreenLore3/10/2015, 12:32:05 AM1 votes

Well that orb is extremely powerful,but I guess that is the reason why it is more of a mac guffin and not part of a champion.

Physical champs always look kinda underpowered,but I'd say that they are probably much tougher than a regular human could ever be.

Lockenster3/10/2015, 9:03:41 AM1 votes

I like to believe that all the champions are magical in some ways.

Like Garen pulling a sword off the sky.

Tryndamere and his undying rage.

Caitlyn surviving a fireblast from Annie.

and even Jinx, a crazy women with guns and is able to shoots things with such and accuracy, could use magic or is magical in someway.

Nybx4life3/10/2015, 6:05:32 PM1 votes

Y'know what I'd like to see?

Set up a Horde mode, kinda like Gears of War. Huge waves of minions, add in some of the forest guys, with Dragon and Baron being bosses.

Get some champs, and see how long they last. Minions are usually only a threat after a duel with another Champ, or just very early levels when overextending.

Helmight3/9/2015, 6:26:59 PM1 votes

I feel as though Bard is relatively "balanced", so to speak. Sure, he wields unknowable cosmic power and can handle dangerous artifacts, but he's inconsistent and doesn't really act with any sort of agency that makes sense to us. He might show up and kick someone's shit in, but it's at random, according to a design that only he knows. I'd also suggest that Bard is more of a caretaker than a warrior, as evidenced by his kit. He CAN fight, but he's not particularly good at it because it's not his Prime Directive to kill people.

I feel as though characters in LoL are all about equal. Given that most every character uses mana, we can assume that magic enhances even the most mundane of champion abilities. Darius therefore isn't just a tough guy with an axe.