At this point, what is making League Lore stand out from other franchises? Seems generic

Darrosh Jewfist·Mar 14, 2015·83 votes·8,416 views

If Riot can't solve this, their lore will always be sixth-rate.

Any amateur fantasy writer can spend days building up a fantastic world with culture, magic systems, and etc. all based off some real life example and with Riot's artists they have no problem SHOWING us how awesome it is. They can quickly worldbuild rather easily if they have a vision.

And somehow, Riot is behind in this department.

But making memorable characters, stories, and etc that is more than just looking nice? The recent champs really dropped the ball on this.

Honestly, the most popular champs are just the ones played at LCS, have nice splashart, or people's personal preferences. I can't imagine someone actually going "yeah, I love Kalista/Bard/Rek'Sai because they got great lore and personality behind them" or "Nasus' Shurima narration video really had me thinking he's a great character."

It feels generic.

That's bad.

;_; what do?

151 Comments

CriomhthannMar 14, 201524 votes

What lore?

Jeddy017Mar 15, 20157 votes

Random people with a diverse range of random powers/abilities/strengths in some random world that a history and some random events that don't lead into anything.It just happens.

"But that doesn't count as lore!"

Oh,well then nevermind.

"Though it may count as lore to the Narrative."

maybe.

DJ Hatsune MikuMar 14, 201521 votes

Honestly, nothing. League's lore and emphasis on just having this generic fantasy world is, from a writer's perspective, one of the dumbest things that has ever happened to this game. League had this great thematic hook with the Institute of War and all these city state interactions and summoners and it was unique, it was interesting, it's what the damn game is named after! At this point League should just be called, "Fantasy Fighters" because that's really what it is.

The fact that they scrapped years worth of lore because, "It was limiting" is total bullshit imo. Having a theme that's present in your entire world and dictates how things happen is not stifling, it's an enabler. The fact that the Institute was this political gladiatorial arena was so damn awesome and it still allowed a great number of interactions. There is literally no champion released to date that wouldn't have fit within the old lore and the "Shurima update" for Azir would have worked just fine in the old lore.

Not to mention having this central thing working to preserve balance and keep another war from ravaging this world was great and could have opened up a lot of interesting dynamics between players. People like to poke at the idea that Kat and Garen are interested in one another or have this secret relationship going since one is Noxian and the other is Demacian and they're mortal enemies. But guess what, that simply cannot exist anymore in the new lore. Kat and Garen would never meet each other outside of a battle that would end in one of their deaths.

Same goes for Twisted Fate and Eve. Instead of constructing an interesting and engaging world with real characters in it.. They're going for fantasy tropes in a generic world that supports nothing but one of lores that are there only to make a champion seem cool so that people buy them.

And on another note, why are they even called champions anymore? They don't champion anything because there's nothing TO champion! They're just named characters in a story that.. Honestly no one would read if it was in any other form.

As a long time creative writer, the new lore is just a shadow of its former self and it's probably one of the lamest things they've ever done short of trashing the journal of justice. The League judgements gave us insight into these characters, the Journals let us see what goes on outside of the rift. Now all we have is a 2 minute animation about Bard doing honestly nothing besides make pretty lights show up. It's bad story telling and bad writing.

Can you imagine what Orianna's lore would be like if she was released today? It'd be a damn trainwreck. "Some girl gets killed by -insert generic thing that's not tied to anything here- and her dad goes mad and makes a robot that's, for some reason, a killing machine." It wouldn't make a lick of sense.

I honestly wish I could spend a few months with Riot's Lore Team and just see what these professional level writers are even thinking, because as it stands I feel like these people have just accepted that they aren't a team but a group of writers that want to make their own separate things and to make all these whacky and sellable characters something had to give. It's just frustrating to watch lore and stories I loved drift away into just memories. The day Sona doesn't say, "Only you can hear me Summoner" is probably the day I quit league.

Darrosh JewfistMar 14, 201510 votes

[{quoted}](name=DJ Hatsune Miku,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=3Lwr04Ru,comment-id=0007,timestamp=2015-03-14T20:39:17.585+0000)

I honestly wish I could spend a few months with Riot's Lore Team and just see what these professional level writers are even thinking, because as it stands I feel like these people have just accepted that they aren't a team but a group of writers that want to make their own separate things and to make all these whacky and sellable characters something had to give. It's just frustrating to watch lore and stories I loved drift away into just memories. The day Sona doesn't say, "Only you can hear me Summoner" is probably the day I quit league.

This part really resonates with me. It does seem like Riot writers are seriously just making champs and forcing them to fit in a world that, without the IoW, makes utterly no sense.

Just a question, but how do you feel about the Rek'Sai journals and Bard slideshow about the history of Valoran? I'm talking about if they're valid substitutes or in the right direction.

DJ Hatsune MikuMar 14, 201512 votes

I actually didn't get too hype for bard on release so I didn't follow much of his stuff. However the journals I liked since I was super hype for Rek'sai, although there were some things executed with her that just felt like awkward choices. Honestly 3 of the last 5 champs released do not speak a language (Bard, Rek'sai, and Gnar), the ultimate has recycled voice clips/gibberish, and Kalista/Azir aren't exactly well written so I think, while they are certainly trying to flesh out this world, the lack of core concept is start to wear on the smaller details in their champions. They're starting to lack personality.

Azir: Shurima Shurima Destiny Shurima. Kalista: Vengence Vengence trust honor Vengence.

I don't think it's a coincidence that champions that have ties with establish settings from the past, such as Yasuo, Lissandra, and Braum have lovely personalities where as ones with settings worked by the current lore team to support them / have no ties outside of their own personal story are terribly uninteresting or one dimensional.

Like.. I don't play Kalista because she's interesting, I pick her because she's good. I pick Braum because I like him as a character, he just so happens to also be a fun support to play and is pretty good.

Darrosh JewfistMar 14, 20158 votes

Totally see what you mean by personalities and flavor being connected to the old pre-retcon lore.

And you bring up a good point about the post-retcon champs losing that. However, I think what Riot is trying to do is develop more 'Legends' like Kalista, Bard, Rek'Sai which in their world are literal legends in their own right.

The problem I, and probably many others, have is that it's as you said, terrible uninteresting or one dimensional.

But Yasuo's coo.

I especially enjoy Yasuo. I'm a fan of East Asian martial arts films (including samurai films like Kurosawa and Zatoichi). So the whole lone swordsman gig really got me.

I enjoy they went with a sort of Yojimbo-Sanjuro kind of wanderer with a Miyamoto Musashi explanation for this abilities. The kind of aloof swordsman who has a tough exterior but a heart of gold and deep personal quest is touching.

Which champs do you enjoy?

DJ Hatsune MikuMar 14, 201510 votes

Besides the named Lissandra (Love her sinister yet arrogant personality) and Braum, as well as the obvious Sona. I'm quite a fan of Morgana and Kayle, especially because their whole lore was less good v evil and chaos vs order which was an interesting take.

I'm also a really big fan of Nautilus, Sejuani (Both pre and post rework) Lux, Miss Fortune, Singed, Shyvana, Kat, Cassi, Fiora, and new Sion. Honestly I think new Sion is probably one of their best recent creations. The way he shifts, in his lines, from a bloodthirsty killing machine to quietly reflecting on what he's become and wondering about his past life is really awesome.

Whoever did Sion's voice acting was really great, and his writer did a wonderful job. When you go from, "I'll drown you in your own blood!" to "Why do I feel... Nothing?" and, "Always marching." really does give some insights into his personality and honestly makes me feel bad for him.

Yasuo is also up there in terms of being a 10/10 design and being executed well, so I guess I'll add him to the list, even though I don't play him much because I'm bad at him xD

Darrosh JewfistMar 14, 201511 votes

I really love Sion's line "is this what passes for war!?"

It's like, the PERFECT line for a resurrected, enraged, zombie general who is thrown into a non-fatal 5v5 sports arena.

But in a post-retcon Sion, it seems kind of silly.

I agree, the Sion rework was good. It's also utterly steeped in pre-retcon lore and builds off so many established story points. I'm interested in where they'll go with the Sion story line and the conspiracy, but it's been a while since any peep of it has come out.

Are you familiar with Warcraft? I'm aware some people compare reworked Sion to Garrosh Hellscream (trivia, my name Darrosh is just Garrosh with a D for the first letter of my first name).

I can certainly see the semblance in terms of visual design and some themes.

What do you think?

NarasimhaMar 14, 20154 votes

here is literally no champion released to date that wouldn't have fit within the old lore and the "Shurima update" for Azir would have worked just fine in the old lore.

Just to jump in, this would have been fun, until they released Bard. Intentional or not, he is the deathblow to the old lore. He is a being that CANNOT exist in the same universe as the IoW by his very nature.

Iceborn PippinMar 14, 20154 votes

{quoted}

Just to jump in, this would have been fun, until they released Bard. Intentional or not, he is the deathblow to the old lore. He is a being that CANNOT exist in the same universe as the IoW by his very nature.

Sadly true. I mean how would the IoW try to get a constantly wandering celestial being like Bard to join the League (if it still existed) as Bard is a neutral character who holds no allegiances except to the balance of the world and could not give a *twitch's posterior *about mortal affairs and lives.

Loken StoneheartMar 14, 201513 votes

[{quoted}](name=Iceborn Pippin,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=3Lwr04Ru,comment-id=000700010000,timestamp=2015-03-14T23:34:01.852+0000)

Sadly true. I mean how would the IoW try to get a constantly wandering celestial being like Bard to join the League (if it still existed) as Bard is a neutral character who holds no allegiances except to the balance of the world and could not give a *twitch's posterior *about mortal affairs and lives.

Bard is the IoW as a God.

He stops people from abusing powerful magic that can ravage the world.

They replaced the IoW with a freakin' God, making the lore rework borderline pointless to begin with as even a concept.

DJ Hatsune MikuMar 14, 201513 votes

I'd like to politely disagree. The Institute managed to keep Brand, the living spirit of Fire, Fiddlesticks, a mysterious malevolent scarecrow, and Nocturne, a being made entirely from nightmares and shadows, under control, I believe they could have had Bard hanging around as well. Apparently, according to his short lore, he makes sure that the unknowable structure of the universe isn't threatened, which I believe is something the Summoners also were after.

I think his current lore wouldn't work, but Bard honestly strikes me as a character that is trying too hard to seem artsy. "No one understands him because he's mysterious and does his own thing and protects the world." And then have literally over 50 sound files dedicated to chime noises. Bard has zero character and is probably what happens when the gameplay department and the art department get good ideas and the lore department is like, "Well darn, we can't think of anything, let's just make him some omniscient legend come to life and skip writing by making him all ethereal sounding noises."

Now if they spent time making a proper character he could have been a mixture of Nocturne and Soraka in terms of being this celestial, otherworldly being that's doing good. Hell, he could have been the dream to Nocturne's nightmare.

BoswickMar 15, 20156 votes

I sincerely wish narrative actually read posts like yours.

DJ Hatsune MikuMar 16, 20156 votes

Thank you~ I hope so as well. I'd love to see lore come back to life.

mirAcIeMar 14, 201520 votes

Lore development is very very slow. Sorry for the straightforward criticism, but I feel like Riot develops relatively small lore pieces that help us to build a bigger picture at the same rate as other game developers build the whole games. And then Rito easily scraps the former work and rewrites history just like that. I know that change is good, but it kinda breaks my heart to see old things just being... erased for the sake of newer, "better" ones. Can't we just build new lore on top of the old one and not tear the old lore down completely? Sure newer players won't care, but if you've been around since 2010, that's just... sad.

Chromatic EagleMar 14, 201514 votes

It's not even a criticism at this point. It's a fact. How they handled this should be taught in a class on what not to do when writing a story.

Darrosh JewfistMar 14, 201512 votes

So Riot's Narrative Department is now a cautionary tale?

AnidanMar 15, 201510 votes

Give them about 3 months and they may have a 3-5 sentence paragraph on the ramifications of not planning ahead properly.

I miss muh lore. I want Elise and Diana expanded upon because I love both of those champions.

Darrosh JewfistMar 15, 20159 votes

I want another Exploring Runeterra blog post.

THAT'D BE SO FUN.

LeetriMar 15, 20154 votes

To be fair, the old lore wasn't particularly good either. Most of the lore was "This person is powerful or comes from a mysterious place. They join the League of Legends for revenge/knowledge/fun/a Klondyke bar/ etc." The lore didn't make sense from a gameplay standpoint either. Why is the Demacian prince teaming up with the beasts from the Void and the Noxian executioner? What I'm saying is, you don't build a new house on a faulty base. Unless you want the entire thing to fall apart, that is. The old lore was basically an excuse for the characters to fight, it didn't create a credible world that lives on its own. The few events (Freljord and Shurima) we've had have been a start, but Riot is still far off from a cohesive world. They need to flesh out the world before they can start telling stories, just like Tolkien did.

Iceborn PippinMar 15, 20157 votes

{quoted}

To be fair, the old lore wasn't particularly good either. Most of the lore was "This person is powerful or comes from a mysterious place. They join the League of Legends for revenge/knowledge/fun/a Klondyke bar/ etc." The lore didn't make sense from a gameplay standpoint either. Why is the Demacian prince teaming up with the beasts from the Void and the Noxian executioner? What I'm saying is, you don't build a new house on a faulty base. Unless you want the entire thing to fall apart, that is. The old lore was basically an excuse for the characters to fight, it didn't create a credible world that lives on its own. The few events (Freljord and Shurima) we've had have been a start, but Riot is still far off from a cohesive world. They need to flesh out the world before they can start telling stories, just like Tolkien did.

I agree although at least it was a cohesive story before all this retconning. If they wanted to make the base of this house less faulty, instead of taking out the IoW like they did, they simple just had to expand the backstorys of their characters. By taking out the League and the IoW and shortening the backstories by an extreme, all they really did was leave the walls and roof of the house yet the floor is gone.

Iceborn PippinMar 14, 201515 votes

You know what is facepalm worthy? RIOT getting rid of the Journal of Justice which was a source of organic storytelling. It was what allowed for Swain to be in the position he is in today, Leader of Noxus. Without the JoJ, swain would never be the face of Noxus like he is today UNLESS RIOT RETCONNED IT.

You know what is facepalm worthy? RIOT changing Skarner 's lore so he is just some crystal scorpion in the Shurima Desert that is quiet territorial. When what would been easier to do is simply EXPAND HIS LORE so that Skarner went to the Shurima Desert only to discover that more of his kind lived there, unprotected, and which is why he is so territorial now and is in the Shurima Desert.

Because they don't wish to really expand the lore unless a new champion is released, it doesn't come across as organic storytelling. Because the characters lack true drive or growth they come across as stilted.

Its already been FIVE YEARS since the game was released all the way back in October 27 of 2009. I expected the characters and their stories to continue growing, not stagnate into cliches and cardboard cutouts whose stories are only plot hooks and cliff hangers.

Darrosh JewfistMar 14, 201515 votes

You bring up a good point about organic storytelling. The JoJ had ongoing conflicts that began and were followed through.

But it seems with the Freljord event (TWO YEARS AGO AND STILL UNRESOLVED) and the Shurima event, Riot just started basically two major conflicts with absolutely no follow-up.

Holy crap, that's bad.

And not to mention, the setting and the conflict themselves are rather generic. Like, nothing's really interesting except the visuals but they get stale quickly.

This is a major problem in current generic post-retcon League.

There is no conflict.

No one is fighting anybody.

Is Demacia and Noxus still at war? What happened to the destructive Rune Wars? Weren't they capable of devastating entire continents? Is Bard the new IoW keeping the peace or can Valoran still find a way to tear itself apart? What about the War of Three Sisters. The Shurima civil war. What the heck is going on in the Shadow Isles?

Spending literally MONTHS to pause in between even giving the tiniest tidbit of information on this is frustrating.

Especially when pre-retcon lore had a consistent month installment of JoJ entries. Sure they were cheesy but at least they were entertaining, gave insight to the world, and had a rich paparazzi flavor unseen in other games.

But flashy videos showing two armies we don't care about killing each other in a village we don't know where or care about for an item we barely understand taken away by a champion we are told we can't comprehend his mental thought processes?

Man, screw that.

;_;

tl:dr I feel you bro. Skarner: I miss my kind.

NagirahMar 15, 201514 votes

It's stupid that they removed IoW, because it was "limiting", but now that it's gone, lore is even more shorter and limited than ever before. What's the point of removing all the lore if you're too lazy to even replace it?

Iceborn PippinMar 15, 201513 votes

Here is also a problem that Bard introduces. Since the IoW no longer exists, pray tell how did Bard prevent the ongoing war such as when both Demacian and Noxian were fighting over Kalamanda?

For Bard to prevent both sides to going to war, he would have to be a mediator between the two. For Bard to prevent both sides from going to war he would have had to stop them early on to stop larger ramifications that would be caused by the war that led to the events of Kalamanda/Dominion. Yet there is a problem with that as well. For Bard to be a mediator he would have to be involved in the political affairs of mortals. Yet his lore states he isn't involved in the political affair of mortals.

Well that couldn't have been Bard's work. Zilean and several summoners were the ones who created a giant stasis bubble over Kalamanda. Yet since the league was retconned out of existence along with Summoners, Zilean was the one who made a giant stasis bubble over Kalamanda. Yet that would mean Zilean is more on par with Bard who is able to also create a giant stasis bubble (in-game).

Yet then the question becomes why did Zilean do it. He would have to had assistance or been informed by someone. Bard cannot speak to Zilean for Bard speaks in musical notes and Bard's message would fall flat on its face. Yet for Bard to interact with Zilean at all means that he is involved in the affairs of Mortals.

Then the question becomes why is there a Dominion Map? Who made it so in-lore it was used as another Battle Arena for the champions to duke it out. Why do the champions even duke it out on Summoner's Rift or Howling Abyss or Twisted Treeline?

Since the League and IoW does not exist, why are they called Champions? Whose cause are they championing. Shouldn't that also mean the game is just renamed to L for LEGENDS as the League does not exist?

By also retconning with Bard instead of keeping IoW they got rid of Skarner 's entire race that was hibernating at Kalamanda as they also retconned Skarner's lore as it now just Crystal Monster in the Shurima Desert.

Why couldn't we have both Bard and the Institue of War? Bard cares simply about Artifacts and Natural Disasters, the Institute of War cares about Politics and Warfare.

TLDR: Bard instead of IoW causes a domino effect of plot holes which only create more questions than answers. Which then further prove that they should not have taken away the League or the IoW to begin. As the incompetence becomes apparent.

Darrosh JewfistMar 15, 20159 votes

This is some valuable insight to how poorly thought out the inclusion of Bard is.

Man.

;_; I wish champions were just overhyped nationalistic celebrities again. It'd be neat to have North Korean style pictures of Jarvan Garen and Lux hanging on my wall.

Iceborn PippinMar 15, 20157 votes

[{quoted}](name=Iceborn Pippin,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=3Lwr04Ru,comment-id=001a,timestamp=2015-03-15T07:09:30.675+0000)

Here is also a problem that Bard introduces. Since the IoW no longer exists, pray tell how did Bard prevent the ongoing war such as when both Demacian and Noxian were fighting over Kalamanda?

For Bard to prevent both sides to going to war, he would have to be a mediator between the two. For Bard to prevent both sides from going to war he would have had to stop them early on to stop larger ramifications that would be caused by the war that led to the events of Kalamanda/Dominion. Yet there is a problem with that as well. For Bard to be a mediator he would have to be involved in the political affairs of mortals. Yet his lore states he isn't involved in the political affair of mortals.

Well that couldn't have been Bard's work. Zilean and several summoners were the ones who created a giant stasis bubble over Kalamanda. Yet since the league was retconned out of existence along with Summoners, Zilean was the one who made a giant stasis bubble over Kalamanda. Yet that would mean Zilean is more on par with Bard who is able to also create a giant stasis bubble (in-game).

Yet then the question becomes why did Zilean do it. He would have to had assistance or been informed by someone. Bard cannot speak to for speaks in musical notes and Bard's message would fall flat on its face. Yet for Bard to interact with Zilean at all means that he is involved in the affairs of Mortals.

Then the question becomes why is there a Dominion Map? Who made it so in-lore it was used as another Battle Arena for the champions to duke it out. Why do the champions even duke it out on Summoner's Rift or Howling Abyss or Twisted Treeline?

Since the League and IoW does not exist, why are they called Champions? Whose cause are they championing. Shouldn't that also mean the game is just renamed to L for LEGENDS as the League does not exist?

By also retconning with Bard instead of keeping IoW they got rid of 's entire race that was hibernating at Kalamanda as they also retconned Skarner's lore as it now just Crystal Monster in the Shurima Desert.

Why couldn't we have both Bard and the Institue of War? Bard cares simply about Artifacts and Natural Disasters, the Institute of War cares about Politics and Warfare.

TLDR: Bard instead of IoW causes a domino effect of plot holes which only create more questions than answers. Which then further prove that they should not have taken away the League or the IoW to begin. As the incompetence becomes apparent.

Also it just came to me but:

If the IoW was in-lore taken out by Noxian Forces so it no longer exists in the same state as it did and a few months later we get the champion Bard ... why didn't Bard prevent that in retrospect? Bard as this celestial entity that can see into the future would know that if the IoW is dismantled it causes chaos and war which means Bard would have actively decided to create war.

For Bard to do what he does from a lore standpoint, he would have to be a Tyrannical Ruler over mortals. As he actively makes sure to prevent even the smallest ramification caused by a mortal entity from creating a war or catastrophe due to rippling effects of the cause. For Bard to be this boogeyman to mortals, he would actively have to involve himself in the affairs of mortals and care for the lives of mortals. (SPOILER: Bard in the current lore cares neither for the affairs of mortals or their lives)

Which further proves why RIOT's decisions don't make sense from a canonical standpoint. Along with why the Lore itself is currently in Shambles. Which also proves why RIOT is not thinking correctly when it comes to the Lore in general.

EDIT: For Bard to even function opposite of what I am purposing, he would have to be only involved in preventing Natural Disasters and protecting Artifacts of Great Importance.

TwitchInMyPantsMar 15, 201512 votes

I miss S2 just for the Journal of Justice. It was so fun to read and really the great storytelling on top of the engaging gameplay is what hooked me in the first place. Literally only reason I still play LoL is that my friends cannot play HotS yet and they dislike Smite. Frankly even though those games aren't about lore the latter actually feels like a lively environment due to all the character interactions in both real world context and in-game dialogue. The lore matches what the gods are capable of in game and it breaths out as you play. And that's just a generic arena lore that wasn't close to what S2's lore was like, that shit was exciting.

Like the Ionia vs Noxus match was a really fun one, though I feel like it was handled poorly. It was literally one match that wasn't even really shoutcasted much since Phreak was answering lore questions instead of commenting on the gameplay. It didn't retain views as long as a normal competitive game would just because of the sloppy handling. If there was like a collective of summoners brought in to represent certain nations and it was played out as a series, that would be almost as hype as LCS. Thing is Udyr rushing the most broken build in the game after misplays from Noxus' side was the only thing that decided Lucidity boots to be branded as Ionian. That was probably the sloppiest way that match could've been done.

Honestly I've been hoping they'd try it again especially since they have experienced shoutcasters, but the lore team is basically dead. The people that work it now can make neat presentations once every 6 months but really it seems like they're just jotting notes down on what their headcanons or ideas on certain champs are and they're just erasing the artwork that's well loved by the community and replacing it with 3 lines of chicken scratched notes that are incoherrent. I don't understand how they do this shit over and over again and don't understand why we get pissed about it. They're deleting well established storyline that people like and they're smashing it in the smallest package they can, leaving a smooshed mess that no one likes.

TonyTonyMordecaiMar 14, 201510 votes

To be honest, (and I'm expecting downvotes) but I honestly DO want to see some sort of ties inbetween characters or the history behind them, to give a better back story when you want to make fan art or fan fiction, but... In the end... I really don't care. I want to get into the game, and if the lore says "Bard is from a different cosmic dimension" then that explains to me that he is some sort of divine/dimensional being that words or stories can't simply describe. I would rather have the short and sweet lore that gets to the point as opposed to the super long stories that didn't explain much at all, and left me wondering why I bothered wasting five minutes on the whole life story of Ezreal when all I needed to know was that he's an explorer with a magical wristguard?

ShínyMar 14, 201537 votes

Just as Riot creates many different types of skins,there's many different ways lore can be delivered in game and out of game.

Riot is already delivering and following through with the type of lore you enjoy(Short descriptions,in-game events and shopkeeper voice-overs).

Riot is getting criticized for not following through on the content meant for a different crowd of consumers.(Longer stories, Replacing a world they wrecked,Read some of the topics here you'll get the gist of the complaints.)

So its fine if you don't care, Riot's already taking care of you.Just don't oppose anyone else if they want a different type of content,its not gonna take away from what you're getting.

TonyTonyMordecaiMar 14, 20153 votes

Well at least someone can see both sides of the lore before and after event :D I'm not opposed to the lore being long, but I would like there to be the long stories on the website (if they ever update it, my god... the wiki gets updated quicker) but I don't want to read Harry Potter length stories in the client... And yea, I'm wondering when they're going to add VO to the shopkeepers like on ARAM... Or change the minions/nexus stuff on ARAM... Or Twisted Treeline. I don't think the lore is completely destroyed, but I just don't understand what everyone's problem is with Riot and shortening the lore section. It doesn't detract from gameplay.

Darrosh JewfistMar 14, 201527 votes

{quoted}

It doesn't detract from gameplay.

What.

What.

WHAT.

This logic right here is probably what got us in this entire mess in the first place. There's a particular segment of the LoL community that craves expansion of the lore. Instead of an expansion, we got a devastated retcon from which lore hasn't recovered yet.

AND THIS ALL PROBABLY STARTED BECAUSE SOME MARKETING GUY SAID, "hey, no lore doesn't detract from gameplay, right?"

Everyone in the board meeting nods.

"Yeah, faker can still do his plays."

"Aphromoo can still be awesome support."

"Man that Bard synergy."

Seriously.

If your mindset is that the absence of lore cannot detract from gameplay, then by all means having lore can't detract from gameplay as well.

WHICH IF YOU WOULD HAVE NOTICED, LEAGUE LORE IS DIVORCED FROM GAMEPLAY ANYWAYS.

;_;

Just let me have muh lore. You can stay happy and ignorant while the wise are full of doubt and angry and sad.

TonyTonyMordecaiMar 14, 20151 votes

... Uhhhh... What?

Darrosh JewfistMar 14, 201525 votes

tl:dr - if you feel shorter lore can't hurt gameplay, then having longer lore can't hurt gameplay either.

However for me, I want longer, more expansive, more insightful and thoughtful lore that delves deep into the character and world and their struggles.

So basically, I understand you may not care about lore, but I still want muh lore.

TonyTonyMordecaiMar 14, 20151 votes

"muh lore"

Thank you, now I care that much more.

There is still lore, but the whole "summoner's council" thing made no sense. Is it supposed to be some sort of cult where we go into the fantasy world matrix-style and beat the crap out of each other? Or is there supposed to be some actual story between the champions themselves? And yes, if everyone puts all focus into lore, it will detract from gameplay because now everyone is worried about the five page essays in the client that no one reads as opposed to making sure the game looks good and doesn't feel like I'm watching animal soccer world. I read your full post before, no need for a tl:dr, I'm confused why you're getting in a tizzy in me saying how Riot has made the lore that you want in the form of the story about Amumu's curse, and Xerath and Azir's stories. And how deep do you want the lore to get? What more do you want? In a game that doesn't actually have a storyline, you can't really do the whole "this is why" thing that other games have... Amumu is still going to stay as the eternally sad mummy who is destined to have no friends, and we will never know why he is that way. And how much expansion to "muh lore" do you want, anyway?

Darrosh JewfistMar 14, 201521 votes

WHAT.

The JoJ still had storylines despite the IoW. Yes, it was suppose to be a political-conspiracy council. And there are plenty of stories between champions themselves.

In JoJ you've got the month long progression of diplomacy between Ashe and Tryndamere ending with their political marriage. You've got the entire Crystal Scar conflict. You've got Swain's rise to power and its effect on Cass and Kat due to the mysterious disappearance of their father. You've got edgy ways to introduce champs. These were written from the perspective of a reporter, which gave a unique lens.

ALL OF THIS IS BETTER THAN THE 2 MINUTE VIDEO AND LESS THAN 5 SENTENCE PARAGRAPH WE GOT NOW.

"And yes, if everyone puts all focus into lore, it will detract from gameplay because now everyone is worried about the five page essays in the client that no one reads as opposed to making sure the game looks good and doesn't feel like I'm watching animal soccer world."

Easy solution.

Don't read it because if you don't care about it.

To access the lore on the client, you have to go to the champ, click lore, and see "oh, five pages of text. Meh, I'll read it maybe if I have time." But look, say you like Ahri (and trust me, I love Ahri), and you decide gee, I'd love to see her lore. You go to the page and you're pretty happy there's a sizable chunk of words to read about her.

But let's say you love Bard or Kalista or Skarner.

And you want to read more on them.

Frigging 3-5 sentences. Elementary schoolers can write more.

So having longer in depth bios (which seems to your idea of lore) cannot possible detract from gameplay.

It can only enhance it.

P.S. have you seen the depths that Warhammer and Warcraft go in its lore? With books, games, and sheer variety of storytelling methods through manuals, text, visual maps and diagrams, and serialized story telling?

TonyTonyMordecaiMar 14, 20151 votes

Ok, we're not seeing eye-to-eye on this, so I'm going to stop talking about "muh lore" because I guess the relationship between Cassiopeia and Katarina causing the creation of the crystal scar is way more interesting than actually playing the game.

Darrosh JewfistMar 14, 201520 votes

YES. WELCOME TO THE STORY AND ART BOARDS, SON.

RasCaelestisMar 15, 201512 votes

This. Exactly this. I love that you used Warhammer as an example, because it's perfect for this.

I will admit that sometimes their lore is bad (stupid Grey Knights) but because there is an incredible amount of it, it can have a wide audience and you're guaranteed to find some part that you like. Want to know more about the Thousand Sons after the Rubric? Read the Ahriman series. Want to know about the foundations of the 'modern' Imperium? So far there are about 30 books in The Horus Heresy. Good luck. Want some rather silly Imperial Guard stories? Caiaphas Cain. Serious grimdark Imperial Guard more your thing? Gaunt's Ghosts has you covered. Tech-Priests? Priests of Mars, Lords of Mars, and Gods of Mars are all phenomenal.

To be completely honest, I have played an actual Warhammer 40K game only once. I used one of my friend's armies, and had a lot of fun even though I lost horribly. Unfortunately, getting an army for myself is WAAAAY too expensive for me right now. The thing is, I love the story. The universe is massive and as much as the game's playstyle interests me, the story is what pulled me into the franchise. I can understand what people mean when they talk about a new Codex (essentially the rulebooks for different armies) and why they like/loathe it, but it's the 'fluff' that really interests me.

I understand that Warhammer has had over 20 years to build up this lore and universe and storyline, but with the way League of Legends is going with its own lore, I don't expect there to be much at all in a few years. While Warhammer built up an established lore over its history, League of Legends seems to be intent on tearing its own story down. Yes, some of the early 40K stuff is not technically canon anymore (Malal/Malice, Squats, etc.) it has done a great job of telling an epic story that has pulled in fans regardless of whether or not they like the tabletop game. I can't see League doing that with its current lore. I will say that the old JoJ stuff did have some flaws, but they were minor compared to the rest of it. The JoJ and the Judgements were interesting little insights into the world the game was based on and even though they were all tied directly to the in-game characters, they still had their own unique pull.

I actually started playing Viktor because he reminded me of Warhammer 40K's Tech-Priests, but his own personal lore was what hooked me. The Glorious Evolution is far from a unique concept, but it's still really interesting in this case, and I'd like to know more about it. I started playing Viktor because I like his character, and I refuse to play Jayce for similar reasons.

To end this rant, if I started playing League of Legends now, I honestly don't think I'd stick around. There's not enough of an actual story to pull me in now, and there are MOBAs with fewer glitches, better balance, and fairly equal gameplay coming out all the time. Heck, even Warhammer 40K has one scheduled for later this year called Dark Nexus Arena or something like that.

KING OF MASKSMar 14, 201510 votes

To answer the question of this thread: probably the fact that League's lore is effectively nonexistent. That's pretty damn unique, if I say so myself!

StrawberrycocoaMar 15, 20159 votes

This thread makes me miss all the conversational interactions between Shapers in Dawngate. Sometimes I would pick Desecrator when an ally took Mikella just to hear him taunt her about her father and her privileged upbringing.

Sneak DogMar 15, 20158 votes

Dawngates shapers also actually felt like people instead of just characters.

Darrosh JewfistMar 15, 20154 votes

What was the plot of Dawngate? Never got into it since it was never technically released.

Iceborn PippinMar 15, 20157 votes

[{quoted}](name=Darrosh Jewfist,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=3Lwr04Ru,comment-id=000f0001,timestamp=2015-03-15T00:57:33.391+0000)

What was the plot of Dawngate? Never got into it since it was never technically released.

To summarize: It was about a broken hearted man who made an elaborate gateway known as the Dawngate which opened up the Mortal World and the Spirit World together by linking them. Through this several mortal individuals, practically normal people like you and I became Shapers who gained their great powers by being bonded with spirits.

An example is Voluc the Devourer. Once the leader of a paladin order, Voluc bonded with the Spirit of Consumption as he lay dying in the Holy Woods. No longer quite human, he must remain tirelessly vigilant, lest the Vitality he wields suck the very life from all around him.

“Failure is my dishonor. Victory is my damnation.” - Voluc

Darrosh JewfistMar 15, 20159 votes

That tidbit you gave is lore and size equivalent of what Riot already focuses post-retcon. And man, the quality is several times more interesting than Bard - celestial guy we can't understand and wanders around.

To think Dawngate had ongoing stories and updates with these kinds of characters make it sounds fascinating.

I'm ashamed I never got a chance to get into it before it got axed.

Iceborn PippinMar 15, 20158 votes

[{quoted}](name=Darrosh Jewfist,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=3Lwr04Ru,comment-id=000f000100000000,timestamp=2015-03-15T01:12:21.935+0000)

That tidbit you gave is lore and size equivalent of what Riot already focuses post-retcon. And man, the quality is several times more interesting than Bard - celestial guy we can't understand and wanders around.

To think Dawngate had ongoing stories and updates with these kinds of characters make it sounds fascinating.

I'm ashamed I never got a chance to get into it before it got axed.

When Dawngate was alive it also had Living Lore. What you and I would know as Journal of Justice, Dawngate had Living Lore. The Living Lore was where if an event would happen like if Voluc met another Shaper, they would allow its community to vote on what would happen next in the story. So yes the community actually did have input and did help guide the story.

Iceborn PippinMar 15, 20157 votes

[{quoted}](name=Darrosh Jewfist,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=3Lwr04Ru,comment-id=000f000100000000,timestamp=2015-03-15T01:12:21.935+0000)

That tidbit you gave is lore and size equivalent of what Riot already focuses post-retcon. And man, the quality is several times more interesting than Bard - celestial guy we can't understand and wanders around.

To think Dawngate had ongoing stories and updates with these kinds of characters make it sounds fascinating.

I'm ashamed I never got a chance to get into it before it got axed.

Also aside from webcomics and backstory, there is the audio logs. 34 of these audio logs are each individually tide to specific Shapers. I will use Voluc's as an example. 1 of these is banter between two characters, Raina and Zalgus. All audio logs are about 1-3 minutes long but allow you as the listener to understand what the character is thinking, their wants, their desires. From the way each Shaper talks they don't much different from you or I in how they view the world.

Voluc's Biography: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1-nks2SWdDY&list=PL9ZsNJ4CUgpSdGflQrcnEKPO9LyBi5wct&index=7

Banter Audio Log: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IQt6YsFaRlk

Don't get me wrong, I found Shurima: Descent into the Tomb and Shurima: Rise of the Ascended to be very good videos from League of Legends. The voice acting great, the story flowed well, the visuals themselves were amazing. Yet now that Shurima is restored by Azir I expect its story not finished and for more story to flow from it.

The only fear I have with the story as it is, is will they just leave Shurima to sit there as they did the Three Sisters War in Freljord? Unfinished? No Updates? Just to be a backdrop for our actors? What a pity. What a waste.

Shurima: Rise of the Ascended: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CYyuH1Bp2ZI Shurima: Descent into the Tomb: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7_GU-0fMLh4

StrawberrycocoaMar 15, 201510 votes

[{quoted}](name=Darrosh Jewfist,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=3Lwr04Ru,comment-id=000f0001,timestamp=2015-03-15T00:57:33.391+0000)

What was the plot of Dawngate? Never got into it since it was never technically released.

A grand continent governed by four territories, each an eclectic mix of mighty kingdoms proud cities and peoples both noble and villainous. The Queendoms of the matriarchal North, valuing knowledge and wisdom. The merchant rulers of the West, valuing prosperity and wealth. The artisans of the vibrant South, valuing expression and freedom. The scattered tribes of the East, valuing tradition and the old ways.

Throughout this world there was the presence of the Spirits, encompassing emotives and ideals of Passion, Form, Decay, Corruption, and so forth. Gifted peoples could learn to Shape the world around them, following the guidsance of these Spirits. Out of the West came a shaper named Eidolus, a prodigy of skill and talent. He convinced the wealthiest of the merchant caste to fund the building a a mighty shrine in the Heart of the World, a great forest at the center of the four territories.

Eidolus had recently lost his wife to a ravaging sickness, and threw himself into the labor of this shrine, which he called the Dawngate. But his shrine carried a different purpose than that which he sold to his patron. Using dark shaping which tortured and sacrificed spirits, he created not a shrine but a gateway, a bridge between the Mortal and Spirit worlds.

It Irrupted (spelling intentional), killing every living thing in the explosions radius, except for a few. For when the Dawngate opened, the Spirits crossed over into the mortal world directly. They sought hosts who shared their own ideal (Voracity, Adamance, Consumption, Hunger), bonding directly with them and creating a small army of new Shapers. These bonded souls are the only ones capable of surviving the opening of the Dawngate. Each has their own allegiances, plots, plans, hopes and dreams, but they all share one goal.

You see, the realm inside the Dawngate gathers vim, the energy of the spirits, and these Shapers can absorb it to gain enlightenment, knowledge, and power. Each Shaper enters the Dawngate to gain power for their own purposes, some in service to their homeland and others for private concerns. But whoever controls the Dawngate, commands the power to wipe out entire armies, whole cities, possibly even nations, with only a handful of people.

And so tradition power knowledge and freedom all clash for control of the Dawngate, sending forth their champions into the deadly realm, each hoping to remain standing, lest their enemies gain full contorl of the terrifying power that lays within the once-peaceful Heart.

Ben69Mar 14, 20152 votes

Basically, they don't care. Riot is all about the competitive scene now. I think it's a pretty small minority that cares about lore anyways, I mean that stuff is pretty cool, but I'd rather have a well balanced fun game, than some cool stories behind the champs.

Iceborn PippinMar 14, 20158 votes

{quoted}

Basically, they don't care. Riot is all about the competitive scene now. I think it's a pretty small minority that cares about lore anyways, I mean that stuff is pretty cool, but I'd rather have a well balanced fun game, than some cool stories behind the champs.

Why not both? A fun competitive scene with balanced gameplay AND cool stories? Why forsake one for the other?