Heads up to lore team: "Reborn" is how do you it, Shurima event is how you don't

Pyro··92 votes·6,022 views

From a purely gameplay perspective, Shurima event was a success. We've got a neat game mutator for Dominion that actually showed how secondary objectives could possibly enrich gameplay on Crystal Scar, a new champion, visual updates for a few old ones, and a bunch of new VO lines. That was quite okay, almost on par with Freljord, albeit we had to wait a little bit too long for it.

The story, however, was pretty much bad. Sure, a group of previously disconnected characters became a part of a bigger picture, but even compared to the Freljord retcon, this was just... shallow. If you want a fair comparison - and I will not even bring up JoJ here - take a look at Quinn's journals. Every chapter not only described the social structure of Freljord tribes, but also added Quinn's personal insight into characters of the leaders. This gave the players enough information to choose their allegiance.

Now, imagine if the summoner icons this year, instead of Ascension rewards, were declaration of allegiance towards Azir (with Nasus and Sivir) or Xerath (with Renekton and Cassiopeia). What information to give insight into both sides did the Shurima event deliver? None. Sure, Azir is a new champion just like Lissandra was, but she had the whole Frostguard conspiracy, and Quinn's journal described the people's fear of the Ice Witch. Azir is barely fleshed out and while his intentions are known, we have absolutely zero knowledge of how the other characters might look at him. Xerath from a scholar torn between love and wisdom turned into a cliche evil mage and we have no indication of his goals or why would Renekton or Cassiopeia side with him.

Then, there are the problems of wiping out lore and leaving nothing new in its place. Skarner's VO is now not canon, Xerath's personality, backstory and intentions were ruined, and a bunch of auxillary characters like Ezreal and Amumu lost any connections to other city-states and characters that they had. I mean, look at the lore notes in AIR client. They take pathetic three lines, a fraction of what they used to - for no apparent reason. That empty space hurts. I'd trust the lore team that something will eventually take its place, but it's been a year and a half since the Freljord event, and JoJ was closed long years ago. I don't see the tempo... yet.

For now, the only way to not lose a huge part of what made Xerath Xerath and what made Skarner Skarner is to completely ignore their new lore and keep the old one in mind. That's not something a lore revamp should end up with, huh? Same goes for Cassiopeia's family tree, which is nowhere to be found in the new lore, and Nasus's former occupation as a librarian.

This is why the "Reborn" teaser is, after one part, a lot better than the whole Shurima event. Even though it doesn't dig into Sion's character yet (and possibly never will, as Champion Judgements are gone), it does something that Quinn's journal did and Shurima event did not - give us a look at the events from perspective of other characters.


Now, you may ask, why do we need lore? What difference does it make if Cassiopeia is Katarina's sister or not?

Take a look at any fanart that involves more than one champion. Their relations - especially if they come from the era before special voice interactions - all come from lore notes and JoJ. "Sibling rivalry" webcomics, impiled Katarina/Garen romance - it all stems from those sources. Without story, without rich background, those characters become one-dimensional, nothing more than costumes put on an otherwise ordinary person. Take Brand. On the outside, he's just a raging elemental spirit. However, not only did his Champion Judgement show the reasoning behind his actions, there was also an interview he gave to Journal of Justice, in which he hinted at the grand conspiracy behind the whole League of Legends. Now, is that information necessary to grasp who Brand is? No. But it sure as hell makes his character design a whole level higher. And that's just an old forgotten character that barely appears in competitive scene or fanart.

Braum is friendly to everyone and we've seen the legend about his feats. But what would it take for him to change his attitude? How would he react to some difficult situations? Old lore had the Champion Judgements, that literally went inside a champion's mind and tried pushing all possible buttons. Journal of Justice mentioned some champion's hobbies, friendships or grudges - and that's what fueled all the fanart and fanfics. Relationships between characters are crucial, even without that insight into their heads. Think how much of Rengar and Kha'zix's characterization is their rivalry. How much of Jinx is about her contrast with Caitlyn and Vi (even though she's already a great character even without that).

Sure, we can make up our own "expanded universe" - but we need a starting point. If we're let alone to fantasize what is the rivalry between Lux and Fiora about (as their character pages imply), we'll come up with a variety of different reasons and we will have no point in choosing one over the other. All will be equally irrelevant. Now if we had some seed - family grudge, personal issues, stolen boyfriend - it would allow for a plethora of fanmade content, not only about what's canon, but taking things further from there. This is what JoJ provided and the Shurima event did not.


Keep up the good work with "Reborn". This is exactly the direction we're supposed to be headed in. Thank you.

34 Comments

Oh god beeeees19 votes

I think I get where you're coming from but, taste aside, a lot of what you're saying is assuming that the lore is static and that nothing else is getting revealed about the characters as part of a larger, serial story.

The lore folks have said they're doing this relaunch of the narrative to allow for a lot more storytelling so we're not getting a Freljord-style event and one or two other Zac-like vignettes per year. If the historical pace remains the standard, then leaving a big part of a character's depth unrevealed is more of a problem. If they pick up the pace (something I'm hopeful for since we're already on another major piece of lore reveal), then I really don't mind taking some time to be shown rather than told.

I'm skeptical that they'll hit anything like an acceptable pace if they only do lore reveals on major reworks and champ releases. The world's too big at this point to actual advance stories at a reasonable pace without something to fill that JoJ-living-world hole. I tend to agree with them that the JoJ wasn't the best method for this. It remains to be seen if they can get out content fast enough to keep us engaged. Waiting three years to answer some of those Azir questions would be no good.

John Berserk15 votes

I'm skeptical that they'll hit anything like an acceptable pace if they only do lore reveals on major reworks and champ releases. The world's too big at this point to actual advance stories at a reasonable pace without something to fill that JoJ-living-world hole.

This

They need to tell MORE stories inbetween these large lore events. These events are nice, regardless of whether we like the stories or not, but we just need more. Not more events, but more stories.

Now HOW they should go about telling more stories between these events, well that's on them. They need to figure that out. Maybe they'll have a canon webcomic series or something, or maybe they'll take the Blizzard circa-2004 approach and actually commission some novels or a comic book series or something to tell more stories and put them out there for fans of the lore to go and read. Or maybe they'll even go as far as to make an animated television series/mini-series, who knows. Point is, they need something other than these large events to tell stories, because they're just way too spaced out.

Oh god beeeees3 votes

They need to tell MORE stories inbetween these large lore events. These events are nice, regardless of whether we like the stories or not, but we just need more. Not more events, but more stories.

It'll be interesting to see what route they take. I really hope that it isn't solely fixed around new content, though. Otherwise we'll never get the flashes of Amumu's memories as he starts rediscovering his past or Zilean's disjointed perception of chronology or Fiddle's....anything that makes sense outside of the League, because those champs aren't very likely to get reworked.

...Ok, maybe we'd get Zil anyway. But I think if I had one question for the lore team, it would be whether their storytelling will be tied to game content.

Trylobyte20 votes

Zilean "...and we all fought for this group called the Institute of War, controlled by powerful Summoners. It was a League instituted for the purpose of settling conflicts outside of war. A trial by champion, you could say. And we were the champions!"

Morgana "Good story old man, but that's impossible. Next you're going to tell me I sold myself to these summoners for help fighting my sister."

Kayle "And that I did the same thing to make them go away even though I'm probably capable of killing all of them."

Swain "And who could stop us from going to war if we wanted to? It's not like they can just freeze our armies in time."

Garen "That would be ridiculous."

Zilean "Well actually..."

Syndra "And you're going to tell me that I was even a member despite the fact I hate people who try to control me!"

Zilean "Uh, Syndra, you-"

Chogath "AND NOW YOU WILL TELL US THAT THEY IMPRISONED ME TO STOP MY ONSLAUGHT"

Brand "You're off your meds old man. We can't be contained."

Zilean "...This is why I don't tell you people stories of the past anymore."

Oh god beeeees2 votes

Well, that was pretty much perfect.

Xulsigae3 votes

Zilean IS Pyschopirate.

Hyrum Graff1 votes

I'm skeptical that they'll hit anything like an acceptable pace if they only do lore reveals on major reworks and champ releases. The world's too big at this point to actual advance stories at a reasonable pace without something to fill that JoJ-living-world hole.

This

They need to tell MORE stories inbetween these large lore events. These events are nice, regardless of whether we like the stories or not, but we just need more. Not more events, but more stories.

Now HOW they should go about telling more stories between these events, well that's on them. They need to figure that out. Maybe they'll have a canon webcomic series or something, or maybe they'll take the Blizzard circa-2004 approach and actually commission some novels or a comic book series or something to tell more stories and put them out there for fans of the lore to go and read. Or maybe they'll even go as far as to make an animated television series/mini-series, who knows. Point is, they need something other than these large events to tell stories, because they're just way too spaced out.

What about something like "Playtime with Gnar"? That is to say, periodic posts to these Boards?

Diahane4 votes

I'm skeptical that they'll hit anything like an acceptable pace if they only do lore reveals on major reworks and champ releases. The world's too big at this point to actual advance stories at a reasonable pace without something to fill that JoJ-living-world hole.

This

They need to tell MORE stories inbetween these large lore events. These events are nice, regardless of whether we like the stories or not, but we just need more. Not more events, but more stories.

Now HOW they should go about telling more stories between these events, well that's on them. They need to figure that out. Maybe they'll have a canon webcomic series or something, or maybe they'll take the Blizzard circa-2004 approach and actually commission some novels or a comic book series or something to tell more stories and put them out there for fans of the lore to go and read. Or maybe they'll even go as far as to make an animated television series/mini-series, who knows. Point is, they need something other than these large events to tell stories, because they're just way too spaced out.

What about something like "Playtime with Gnar"? That is to say, periodic posts to these Boards?

Playtime with Gnar is a humour, not lore. Hyronically, given the retcon it couldn't even be canon itself because... why do all those characters meet Gnar with no IoW? So I wouldn't cite it as an example. It doesn't really narrate anything. They are funny comic strips, not lore.

Ignoring this part, I don't think they could deliver good storytelling with something so small-scoped. The pace would be too slow for things to progress sensibly.

Hyrum Graff1 votes

Playtime with Gnar is a humour, not lore. Hyronically, given the retcon it couldn't even be canon itself because... why do all those characters meet Gnar with no IoW? So I wouldn't cite it as an example. It doesn't really narrate anything. They are funny comic strips, not lore.

I didn't mean to suggest that things like that be the only way of delivering lore! :O

I did mean to suggest that short, but regular glimpses into the lives of the champions could be a cool way to give them some depth.

Playtime with Gnar isn't lore, per se, and it isn't cannon, per se, but it does show gnar's personality (albeit only one side of it, so far) very well.


In Talon's lore, he fights - and is defeated by - Katarina, then pledges his allegiance to her. I think it'd be pretty cool to have that one battle scene told, but from Talon/Kat's perspective. Seeing how they think in a situation like that would add a little more depth to their characters, IMO, and make the game a little more enjoyable. It wouldn't need to be long - just a couple paragraphs. And something of that scale, released every week or two, could be a fun way of finding out about some of our favorite characters' life experiences.

I don't think they could deliver good storytelling with something so small-scoped

I wouldn't really envision stories being told this way - they would have to be released some other way - but I do see a lot of potential for character and world development.

John Berserk1 votes

If you mean short "webcomics" then sure, that'll be fine honestly (at least for me). But I dont think "Playtime with Gnar" is quite that, it's more of just a humorous thing to see how Gnar acts around the other Champions without actually progressing anything like a "story".

So yeah I think periodic webcomic posts to the boards could work, maybe if done right, but they'd have to be on a regular basis.. maybe weekly or bi-weekly for a "chapter"? And when those chapters come to a climax moment in the story, that's meant to line up with huge lore events like the Freljord and Shurima events. I think it could work, should Riot plan it out correctly beforehand.

Serpents Embrace5 votes

I'm so sick of this "wait for more to be revealed" bullshit excuse. There was already a LOT of fleshed out information for these characters.

Wiping out the established and making everyone wait for it to get fleshed out again is still a bad thing. Making this argument supports it and how lazy a solution it is. Stop.

Groovus17 votes

The current biggest critique on the lore team that I have, other than the absolutely awful conclusion to the Shurima event (but everyone all ready agrees about that), is they've shown a COMPLETE lack of planning with the lore. Every event seems to scrap and redo lore for a bunch of characters, and in almost every case we're given lore that is less detailed, less interesting, and more cliche than their previous lore. It's hard to believe them when they say that they had to scrap summoners and the IoW because it was painting them into a corner, when the new lore is so bland and sophomoric.

I keep hoping that RIOT will finally see they're they're sitting on a goldmine of lore and turn it into something interesting and exciting (for examples of this, look at what Blizzard and GW have done with their lore - yes, it's simples at time, but they've created true living, breathing worlds with interesting characters and plots that actually have depth), but they seem content to scrap and redo things at will based on whatever little event/idea they think is "neato" at the time.

Like I said before, "Show Me the Money!" If it's true that the old lore was really too restrictive for the story they want to tell, then why is all this new lore so little and so shallow compared to the previous lore?!? Where's the new versions of JOJ and Champion judgments that moved the story along, added background & depth to the champions, and made them part of the world? If the Shurima event is what we can expect for quality and depth going forward, then my interest in the lore is gone.

ModWulf Helhammer12 votes

What difference does it make if Cassiopeia is Katarina's sister or not?

Errm, I'm pretty sure that Cass and Kat are still sisters. The only thing they changed with Cassiopeia lore wise was that instead of being changed by a barbarian's snake sword for betraying him, she got transformed by a stone snake guardian because she wasn't supposed to open the tomb. IMO, I think it fits, because now she has a connection with more than just the Du Couteau family.

AbiwonKenabi11 votes

Her new lore still mentions that she is from a respected noble family, and that would be the DuCouteau's I assume.

It would be nice if they just said she was a DuCouteau from the start, I mean is it really so to say "she is the youngest daughter of the respected DuCouteau family"? It would avoid a lot of confusion and unnecessary assumptions.

AbiwonKenabi8 votes

Everything you've said I totally agree with.

Just to add some of my own thoughts: I really enjoyed what the JoJ added just in terms of making the champions feel human. These champions had actual lives despite being living legends. They dated, they partook in festivals and events, they had other projects and even though some of it was just silly fun, I think it not only added a lot to the characters, but fleshed out the world as a whole. Runeterra wasn't just a place for conflict and dramatic proclamations, it was also a place where one made friends based on personality alone, did things outside of battle and just generally relaxed. This also gave context on how champions might react in many situations.

Dotintheparadox7 votes

Jax "Imagine if I had a real lore team."

Ark Angel HFB2 votes

Jax "Imagine if I had a real lore team."

OOOOOHHHHHH SHHHHHHHHH@#%$@#%$%@

GOT EM

Major Nuker5 votes

People keep doing this thing where they underestimate Riot and become pleasantly surprised later. It's hilarious.

I'm getting an MFA right now. And while there were stories I used to love to some degree, the Lore never really popped for me outside of the JoJ and the side stories. The Shurima event gave us visuals, a fun mode, and tied several characters together better. I really enjoyed it.

I think, generally speaking, the changes that Riot are making are going to be incredibly beneficial for the lore. And they've already explained why. Having every character tied to the Institute really limits the endings of every champ's story. And, as they said, it doesn't seem that the League doesn't exist, but that maybe it's not the end stop for every single character now. I think that's wonderful.

Ultîma2 votes

People keep doing this thing where they underestimate Riot and become pleasantly surprised later. It's hilarious.

People keep underestimating Riot? I think you mean to say that people have come to expect a certain standard from Riot's storytelling, which is to say none-at-all. The pleasant surprise, as you put it, is the exception here - not the rule.

Ark Angel HFB2 votes

People keep underestimating Riot? I think you mean to say that people have come to expect a certain standard from Riot's storytelling, which is to say none-at-all. The pleasant surprise, as you put it, is the exception here - not the rule.

I'd argue that the only thing we have even remotely enjoyed was the reborn stuff... and that everything else in the past two months has been horridly flawed.

Lucifer5 votes

While we're on the topic of Lux's relationships, why the fuck are Lux and Janna friends? Don't they live on opposite sides of the continent? There's a lot of relationships that should be explained and given context to help prevent these characters from being totally one dimensional. I also REALLY dislike that the Freljord event is now technically not "canon", because I agree with you - I think it really was well done.

Motajo2 votes

I feel like at least half of the friendship/rivalry things on the site are just shout-outs to obscure fan works or some red's headcanon. So many just feel out-of-the-blue.

Saint Tyrone 5 votes

ALL THEY LITERALLY NEED TO DO is bring back JoJ, rewrite Azir's lore so it's not 3 sentences, and boom. League is back. Also, undo the Shurima event, that was just pathetic, it ruined so many champion's lore.

Solidair34 votes

Honestly it would be cool if Riot just released some short stories periodically to give us more insight into the lives of these Champs we've come to love. If I have to wait for a new champ for any new lore every time, I'm going to be disappointed.

The world truly is too large, we'll not hear of the Shurima Champs again for an eternity at this rate. I hope Riot gives us more

Penta Penguin3 votes

Reborn is terrible, it rolls straight from apparently a grave memorial to characters having a discussion, all in the exact same page space. For people who are not already familiar with the game's lore, everything mentioned is difficult to make sense out of; How is LeBlanc related and why is the illusion mage somehow tied to necromancy now? Who are "thorn" and "petal"? Darkwill? Which Jarvan?

And yes the story of Shurima was much worse though. The "Grand forever changes in Runeterra" are just a rehash of the previous lore, but with the rebirth of some desert empire tacked on.

I think you folks need to start writing a book or something, and just let us have the game we love.

Watch91 votes

Some people in the world really want Sion to be buried forever. Others feel they became best selling authorsitem 3070

Earl Eulrich4 votes

I think that´s actually a valid point...i can´t imagine how this reads when someonedoes not have the background-knowledge of the old lore (that no longer exists as cannon)... If they really want to start over with the lore they really need to offer a lot more, right now they apparently cannot tell stories without using everything they did somewhat delete earlier.

DioBrandoh3 votes

After Shurima I wanted everyone on the lore team fired.

After Reborn I was still untrustworthy but open minded.

Reading all these posts from Rioters claiming they still care leaves me feeling insulted. If they cared they'd make it so that Skarner, Amumu, and Azir actually haves words in their lore and they wouldn't have done something as retarded as trying to delete the League.

RiotRiot Skyris2 votes

I seriously dont understand how everyone is alive after thousands of years. Yea xerath is a ethereal being, what about nasus and renekton.?

Destínum4 votes

Nasus and Renekton are Ascended, a.k.a. immortal. They where probably already hundereds if not thousands years old before both Xerath and Azir were even born.

SecretLore2 votes

Yeah I agree. They said they'll add the full lores to the shurima characters once the event is over. Well now it is over and they still haven't done it.

And even if they do it within the next few days,I kinda fail to see the logic behind delaying them until AFTER the event is already over. I mean,people are complaining about how some shurima characters were basically deleted,but in fact we just don't know more about them,maybe they did keep all of Xeraths character traits,but we just don't know why he has done the things he did,because they never gave us insight into his character.

Likewise it is entirely possible that skarners line "the crystal scar is weeping" still makes sense,we just know that skarner is currently in shurima,but that doesn't mean he is FROM Shurima(this is a similar case to gragas,who was never said to be from the freljord,but that he wandered to the freljord)

sp4411 votes

Y'now, looking at the promo for a while, I wonder, is the Two-Headed Axe symbol a crest for Noxus, or a crest for just Sion?

Hendrus011 votes

I agree. I just read the lores of the Champions mentioned in the New Shurima lore and It really hurts. But I hope that Riot is going to expand their lore. For example, take Ezreal. Where in The Client-Lore is mentioned that Ezreal is from piltover, or why he Started to be an Explorer? Whats up with his relation to Lux? Im really sad to see this. On the other Hand, the "revival"-trailer is great. You can read how others think about the Noxian that is unbreakable and How Leblanc took a Hint on the Black Rose, i guess. I hope that we'll find more out and What the Black Rose and the Noxian lore at all affects the landscape of Runeterra. Im also seeing forward to Events Like the Ionia vs. Noxus years ago. A match that determines how the lore of Runeterra goes on.. That was Awesome!

Dotintheparadox2 votes

The Lux relationship was insinuated in the JoJ, and also the quotes from the Howling Abyss purple shop-keeper.

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