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New Champion Death Passive Concept

Elite4Runner··2 votes·425 views

This is kind of like a combination between Aatrox's passive and a reverse of Kindred passive.

When the champion is killed by an enemy champion they die, like normal, but when they respawn at the fountain they gain a permanent stat boost Of + (undertermined). This can only occur once every 180 seconds.

Pretty simple really, and it can be applied to any type role. Give an AD, AP, Attack Speed, Crit strike chance, movement speed, HP, Hp5, % HP, Mana, Mp5, % Mana, Armor, Armor Pen., Magic Resist, Magic Pen, CDR, maybe even gold or exp .. anything.

The player may want to try and get this passive stacking early, but the drawback would be that they would be giving up first blood to the enemy team, which I bet they would be happy to take. Or they may avoid killing you in order to deny you the passive stack. That could be interesting.

Limiting the kill condition to enemy champions will prevent suicide to towers and executions by minions or monsters. Putting a cooldown on the passive will also prevent constant feeding for stacks.

It would also be wise for the player of this champion to keep in mind that giving kills to the enemy will essentially make them stronger as well. Being careful to not feed an already well fed opponent is definitely something to consider. Dying to an enemy who is behind the rest of their team can also help to make the enemy team stronger all together.

**I want to clarify, it is not my goal to make the playstyle of this champion out to be "Who should I let kill me next?" but I want a death to ultimately become a minor benefit to you as well. When it comes to balancing, I don't want the reward of your death to become so strong that you WANT to die. Instead, I want your death to keep you from becoming irrelevant. **

15 Comments

legionnaire991 votes

So you die to tower or reward bad laneing

Elite4Runner1 votes

{quoted}

So you die to tower or reward bad laneing

No, you must die to an enemy champion. I said that in the passive and reiterated it again later. If someone is bad at laning they are going to die anyways, and they will ultimately lose their lane no matter what this passive rewards them.

FloRaider421 votes

I don't really like the idea as it rewards you for something you shouldn't be doing. If you really want to do something like that you should tie it to the killer or something so it feels interactive. Vengefull Reincanation: After dying to a champion you deal X% more damage to them and recieve X% less damage from them. Stacks disappear after killing the marked champion.

It would have some value as an anti-snowball tool and would have some character to it.

Elite4Runner1 votes

{quoted}

I don't really like the idea as it rewards you for something you shouldn't be doing. If you really want to do something like that you should tie it to the killer or something so it feels interactive. Vengefull Reincanation: After dying to a champion you deal X% more damage to them and recieve X% less damage from them. Stacks disappear after killing the marked champion.

It would have some value as an anti-snowball tool and would have some character to it.

I see what you mean, but there are already passives in the game that reward you for dying. Karthus KogMaw Sion Zyra (Zyra's passive before rework) None of these give you a permanent stat, but I believe they encourage feeding more often than this passive would. And again, I believe the benefit should be enough to keep you relevant when you occasionally die, instead of making you WANT to die. It could definitely help to die at least once in a game, but this can also be said for any of these other passives.

FloRaider421 votes

I believe they encourage feeding more often than this passive would.

[zombie-brand-mindblown] How exactly ? They don't really reward you for dying, most of the time you deal less damage and have a very limited mobility, so the most you can do with those effects is to help your team a bit in a TF or get revenge on your killer.

Yours encourages feeding, since you gain actual benefits for dying, but the currently existing only reward you for dying, if you got the enemy very low already.

Elite4Runner1 votes

Well I haven't even put any numbers to this and I thought my explanation that the benefit should not make the player WANT to die would at least indicate that whatever the benefit was, it would be on the low side. Honestly, I wan ted the passive to be open to pretty much any role and I still feel that with a well designed kit this could still work with an offensive role, but I would imagine this would really work best with a more defensive role, and the Stat would be more defensive as well. Generally, if you're dying, more defense will help. If you are trying to play an offensive role, defensive stats will still help, but won't necessarily make you more oppressive, just more difficult to kill, which is the point.

As for encouraging feeding, dying should always have more negatives than positives. You will be missing out on gold and exp, and you're actually giving your enemy gold and exp so no matter what, you should still end up behind, but the goal here is to make this champion more capable of recovering. The champions I mentioned, simply die and have the chance to try and get revenge, as you said. I have seen countless situations where a Sion or Karthus will dive into an event team and die just to try and get a kill. They are bad players, I completely get that, but there are still people who will do this simply to use their passive to troll. This passive will enivetably cause trolls to feed, but the time delay will help to minimize that, and depending on what they are ultimately given, would likely make doing so not worth it.

Look, it's different. It may not be the best, but it's an idea. If you don't like it fine, but there may be a way to make it work, and that was my whole goal behind posting this. If someone has any ideas, I want to hear them.

FloRaider421 votes

My main problem is that it ultimately just reduces the impact of death on you. It doesn't help you when ahead or behind and only has any real use when you and your enemy tie and both die. It also lacks visual impact or really impacts how you play.

As Sion or Karthus I am allowed to play riskier in a TF since even when I die I am still a threat to the enemy team. I am ignoring your argument of trolls abusing that since they misuse everything and not specifically those passives.

Some ideas: Martyr: upon death you heal/buff X allies. Flee you Fools: Gives MS to fleeIng team Revenge: Increased Damage and Tankyness against your killer

Elite4Runner1 votes

I am ignoring your argument of trolls abusing that since they misuse everything and not specifically those passives.

I don't see how you can just ignore THE argument because that is exactly the point to any potential problem with something like this. The only way to abuse this passive is to troll and even then you aren't really getting as much of a benefit.

Reducing the impact of death, .. that's the point

doesn't help when you are ahead, .. that is exactly what I wanted. It really shouldn't because those are the champions that snowball like crazy and get complaints all the time. And none of the other death passives help when you aren't dying.

Doesn't help you when behind. .. Reducing the impact of death is a pretty big help if you're behind. It is always good to gain defensive stats if you are behind, otherwise you will continue to fall behind.

Visual impacts, ... There could certainly be a visual impact, but I figured that could be left to Riot.

How you play, .. As we have mentioned a few times now, death for you will not have as great of an impact to you or your team as it would for some of your other teammates. You can make riskier plays with this champion because there would be less danger of you falling behind, or you can make plays as a tank, bait, a distraction, or even to peel so your other teammates can escape. All of that really comes down to what the rest of their kit looks like.

As for your ideas. They are good ideas. Maybe any of these could be an ultimate that the player can cast shortly before death, sort of like Zillean's ultimate, and if the champion then dies while this ability is active, they give a heal/buff teammates or debuff an enemy. Or they could simply be a passive for another champion.

I mean at this point it doesn't really seem like this idea is picking up a bunch of steam, so it may be a moot point anyways. I think it COULD be worked into a kit. I could be wrong, but it doesn't seem to me like you think it is a completely terrible idea, but you see it not being effective.

FloRaider421 votes

{quoted}

I don't see how you can just ignore THE argument because that is exactly the point to any potential problem with something like this. The only way to abuse this passive is to troll and even then you aren't really getting as much of a benefit.

Seriously ? If somebody is intent on trolling nothing can stop that. And unless your mechanic allows a troll to actively harm his own teammates (If Tahm Kench could completly control where and when you leave his W) it is fine. If the biggest problem of your concept is that trolls will abuse it, you might want to rethink the baselines.

How you play, .. As we have mentioned a few times now, death for you will not have as great of an impact to you or your team as it would for some of your other teammates. You can make riskier plays with this champion because there would be less danger of you falling behind, or you can make plays as a tank, bait, a distraction, or even to peel so your other teammates can escape. All of that really comes down to what the rest of their kit looks like.

There are already champions who do that mind you Zac Anivia Aatrox Sion Karthus

I mean at this point it doesn't really seem like this idea is picking up a bunch of steam, so it may be a moot point anyways. I think it COULD be worked into a kit. I could be wrong, but it doesn't seem to me like you think it is a completely terrible idea, but you see it not being effective.

No idea is terrible per se and most of them can be worked around. My problems are that some champions already do the "you can risk more", but more efficiently. Annivia can bait enemies very well and even restores her health when she uses her egg well, Zac and Aatrox can engage risky situations as long as they communicate with their team, Sion can still soak up damage and CC after death and Karthus can still devestate teams if he managed to die inside your group.

Your passive will maybe let people think "it's not as bad if I die since I get the buff", but an active effect would feel better for you (can bait just as good, but has more visual and thematic impact), your allies (they won't need to check your stats if you dying champion suddenly shines brght, makes on epic scream and casts a spell before collapsing) and even the enemy team (Instead of getting annoyed that your stats increased, because they killed you they can work around the active effect).

Elite4Runner1 votes

{quoted}

Seriously ? If somebody is intent on trolling nothing can stop that. And unless your mechanic allows a troll to actively harm his own teammates (If Tahm Kench could completly control where and when you leave his W) it is fine. If the biggest problem of your concept is that trolls will abuse it, you might want to rethink the baselines.

I actually don't think we are disagreeing on this. I just think we are looking at the issue of trolling from different perspectives. If I understand you correctly, you are saying that we can't prevent trolls so we shouldn't give them the opportunity. I'm saying that we can't prevent trolls so we shouldn't allow them to prevent the opportunity for honest players to have a mechanic that can benefit them.

There are already champions who do that mind you Zac Anivia Aatrox Sion Karthus

So if there are already champions who do this, why can't there be one more that does it for a different reason?

No idea is terrible per se and most of them can be worked around. My problems are that some champions already do the "you can risk more", but more efficiently. Annivia can bait enemies very well and even restores her health when she uses her egg well, Zac and Aatrox can engage risky situations as long as they communicate with their team, Sion can still soak up damage and CC after death and Karthus can still devestate teams if he managed to die inside your group.

Your passive will maybe let people think "it's not as bad if I die since I get the buff", but an active effect would feel better for you (can bait just as good, but has more visual and thematic impact), your allies (they won't need to check your stats if you dying champion suddenly shines brght, makes on epic scream and casts a spell before collapsing) and even the enemy team (Instead of getting annoyed that your stats increased, because they killed you they can work around the active effect).

Okay, I don't care if it is a champion's passive or an active ultimate. I simply think that there are currently no champions in the game that see death as a potential benefit to the long game. The ones you mentioned all have an immediate reaction to death in the sense that they can either shrug it off or attempt to get revenge, which is more of a short term strategy or a reaction. If you really think about it, dying isn't necessarily something that hurts your chance to win, but it is definitely a disadvantage as it usually means your enemy gets stronger, or they can take objectives uncontested. There are many examples of a team winning the game from behind on kills.

Even as I said before I don't want death to make you stronger than you would be if you ultimately lived, but just imagine for a second if the enemy had to consider that killing you would ultimately make you more difficult to deal with. What would the game look like if there was a champion who was made in a way that you really don't want to kill them? It would be unbalanced of course, but this is where my idea comes from.

There was once a time, not long ago where the idea of a mass invulnerability ability was insane. Bard

Then there was a mass death prevention ability came out and that was still kinda crazy Kindred

Now Taric 's reworked ultimate is on the way and nobody is flinching.

My exact idea hasn't been done before, but that doesn't mean it can't be done.

FloRaider421 votes

I am a bit confused here:

I don't want death to make you stronger than you would be if you ultimately lived but the enemy has to consider that killing you would ultimately make you more difficult to deal with = stronger

Sounds weird ;P

What would the game look like if there was a champion who was made in a way that you really don't want to kill them?

Good that we finally have a clear goal, because talking about the potential of those passives will involve own opinions and design philosophy and with a clear goal we can at least have a common baseline.

Having a champion that you don't want to kill suffers from quite a lot of problems:

How can I stop this champion from pushing when killing him is bad for me ? How do I make him relevent and at the same time irrelevant enough to make killing or not killing him a decision ? How do I tell new players that killing this champion isn't what they should do ?

It is a very weird concept and compared to all mechanics to work with death (multiple lifes/resurect on corpse/prevent death/get revenge on death) it goes against most game standards and expectations, which make it very heard to design a healthy mechanic around it.

Edit: If you know HOTS Murky seems like a variation as killing him only really matters when you destroy his egg first. He doesn't really get stronger from death, but utilizes a somewhat kamikaze playsytle.

Elite4Runner1 votes

{quoted}

I am a bit confused here:

If you live, you have the opportunity to farm for gold and experience. One or two deaths will ultimately not amount to much overall, but three, four, five deaths and you are most likely falling behind. I still want this champion to feel as if they are falling behind, but less so because of their passive than they would with any other champion. I don't want a player who has died three or four times to be stronger than they would be if they had not died at all, earned farm and experience and purchased relevant items. So the numbers really will be what makes the difference here.

As for the goal, I agree that it would not be an easy thing to do. If it were easy, they would have done it already. Even when I first came up with the idea I realized that it would be too broken, which is why I didn't present it that way. So I thought about it a little more, and to be completely honest, this wasn't even a long process between concept an post, so I'm really not even all that invested in it. I really didn't even expect anyone to show any interest, but I honestly do appreciate the discussion. This is what I think these boards are for.

As for the idea of creating a champion that you wouldn't want to kill. ... This idea is literally minutes old so I know it is not great, or even good, but I'm just throwing it out.

I think the best way to accomplish something like this would be to ultimately make the champion, to a point, ignoble. So lets say with zero deaths at 100% HP all of their damage output to enemy champions is 100% of it's maximum potential. As they lose health their damage output drops as well. Maybe not at a 1 to 1 ratio, but for the sake of argument, at 50% HP their damage is cut in half, continuing down, at 10% their damage is cut down to 10%. So at this point, this champion would probably be as threatening to an enemy champion as a minion, maybe even less. Now, they are still capable of dealing 100% of their damage to minions, monsters, and structures, so they aren't completely ignoble and they can still farm. I would also give them a pretty strong self heal that is more powerful when they are at lower health, so they can get back into the game. Well lets say your enemy champion is getting tired of putting up with you so and they decide to go ahead and kill you, you are still worth gold and exp after all. Now your passive grants you (again, not balanced) an additional 10% damage output at all points. So at 100% Hp you deal 110% damage, all the way down to at 10% HP you deal 20% of your overall damage. So you are still pretty irrelevant, but after a few kills, this will start to add up. After having died 6 times at 10% health you are still dealing 70% of your overall damage, but when you get back to 100% you're doing 160%, which will become hard to ignore, even if you are behind in gold and exp.

Again, this is a horrible idea, .. but I am just thinking of ideas that .... could (I'm saying this very lightly) ... work. ...

Edit for the idea: If you tie the champion's damage output to their maximum health then the enemy will simply want to damage you to the point of making you irrelevant, then ignore you. But knowing how your passive works, you will either want to heal back up and farm, because you know that items and experience are still important to you, or you will want to continue harassing until they kill you so you can start to become more relevant. ..... (I can't believe I am actually typing this, it's such a bad idea lol)

FloRaider421 votes

Definetly something to think about... But honestly I have no idea how this would work (your concept seems kinda interesting, but has the problem of suffering when ahead and against poke).

Elite4Runner1 votes

I also want to think of this as a tank who can afford to sacrifice himself in order to save his allies. Sort of a 'for the greater good' kinda thing, without simply dying, they still get a minor benefit.

The Loveless1 votes

sounds like Doomsday

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